Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[omarsgarciav]

I'll first echo the sentiment that this tier is still in a bad spot etc however I fully disagree with some of these points

Dragonite plays the game on creative mode, and I'm not going to pretend its anything but stupid as of right now. Strictly personally, Its the most broken mon in the tier for me right now and I don't really think its close, but I fully know just how stupid it sounds and feels to call dragonite broken, so if there's an alternate solution that isn't just swinging on tera again I'd love to see it in practice. Encore is dumb, its tera variety is dumb, its movepool feels endless, and very very few actual answers really feel secure vs it. EQ/Ice Spinner/Encore/Roost/Fire Punch/Scale Shot/Facade and a multiple of tera types makes it so just about any counterplay that isnt just salt cure w garg and pray u last feels inconsistent. Whether it be Lele, IDBP Corv, Helmet Lando-T, SD Scizor and yolo Tera Ghosts nothing truly feels effective because there's a tech that fucks with all of them, incentivizing double-dipping for checking it, which is absurdly difficult to accomplish because most things crumble.

Dragonite has a shit ton of issues. First of all its deceptively weak outside of z outrage and the fact that it can't afford to run adamant does not help it at all, and even while running jolly its not that fast, being outsped by every half decent scarfer and every relevant booster mon even at +1. You also cite needing to run overlapping answers but this is really overblown as an issue, since many good pokemon check it and are good regardless of whether they can or cannot check dnite, for example landorus, msciz, toxapex, tusk, garg, ferrothorn, mtar, val, moth, lele, cornerpon, and even urshifu to an extent, and while yes it can use some tech to beat one of them, its likely that will only result in a 1/1 trade, as it is really not that hard to run overlapping checks to it while not constraining your building. This issue is furthered by it often not running boots and thus foregoing multiscale 99% of the time, which is what allows it to set up as freely as it does in this meta.

Kyurem isn't much better, and Wellspring also stinks up the tier really badly for defensive structures. Kyurems set variety is honestly cancerous, and DD kyurem always feels like it can mop me up on a moments notice if I slip even a single time. I've seen Tera Ground, Electric, Ghost, Fire, Steel, Fairy and various moves between Tera Blast/Roost/Scale Shot/EP/Freeze Dry, etc and each of these changes alter what actually checks it. And this ignores shit like Sub too. Wellspring feels less stupid but that only really is because Dragonite is so profusely horseshit that it holds it back, and I don't think anything else really does, but atleast it lacks the variety of the other 2 shithead dragons. Its damage output is nonsense and its speed tier is just slow enough to be manageable but just fast enough to be annoying to build vs.

I'm ngl I kinda see the kyu broken vision but I've yet to really see it perform like it should on paper, be it in tours or my personal testing. Granted most of my personal experience with it was before gouging ban so this might be different now, I'm still not fully sold on it being broken. As for waterpon, I've really come around to it not really being that broken, its not that hard to out offense it given its only decent speed tier and inability to boost speed outside of trailblaze which is a shit move. I do still think its unhealthy and any balance/fat will never be good unless it leaves, just think its unfair to say its overwhelmingly broken in an offense meta.

Man remember when this tier had a mon on offensive structures that punished all these physical attackers? Remember when it made offense actually have to try to win its games without players being able to smash their head against their keyboard and walk their way into a win w their dragons? Yeah me too. I can't talk that much about how much of a mistake suspecting and banning Zama-Hero was because I missed suspect reqs (mainly because I didn't even notice the test), but that's a minor digression. I know things have passed so unbanning this is likely never gonna happen, but I cannot stress enough banning this was a colossal failure for the tier, and its why this tier is the way it is right now. It has no real bearing on the post but if I didn't say it I think I'd go insane.

I just completely disagree with this point. If you look at replays and pastes of zama meta it also incentivized mu fishing and cheezing but centralized around itself instead of the dragons. And even if it wasn't that broken there was also the bigger issue of the tier being almost completely stagnant, and banning zama into banning a shit ton of other mons was truly the only way foward outside of unbanning everything especially after waterpon stayed.

 

[peap]

Some disorganized thoughts here on what this meta is like vs Gen 8 NDOU and USUM OU

- Balance is cooked. Having some sort of “defensive” backbone that handles 1/2 of the meta or less and gets blown through by random Teras or Substitute or simply Outrage spam is a no-go vs the predominantly offensive teams we see today. Maybe the most viable is extreme pivoting (think Slowbro + Band Ogerpon-Teal) that bookends the speed tiers of a lot of the meta, but I don’t know why I keep trying to bring this shit to NDPL. Has gone from the most effective all-around playstyle for two gens to the worst this gen, which some could say speaks to the “unhealthiness” or high amount of matchup risk/reward one takes in the tier (risk is higher).

- Stall is somewhat viable. Unlike balance, running a 6-mon fully defensive core actually gives pretty decent coverage over the meta. Seen a rise in viable Sinistcha structures that handle Ogerpon-Wellspring (besides SD knock off) without having to use Tera and leaving Dozo available to do its job. Compared to USUM OU where Stall was extremely strong, and Gen 8 OU where it was pretty strong, Stall here is much weaker and doesn’t handle hazards nearly as well (probably the best way to break current teams) as Protect Blissey and Gliscor are near mandatory this gen with the recovery nerf.

- Offense has never had so many viable options to stack and overwhelm opponents. Mega Diancie, Glimmora, Landorus-T, Webs, HSamu, Treads offer strong hazard leads and then Iron Moth, Wellspring, Dnite, Iron Crown, Volcarona, Urshifu-R, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon, Great Tusk, etc make sure you can’t remove them while handling dynamic offensive threats. Many, many, permutations available that win through the philosophy “offense is the best defense”. Strongest Offense has been in maybe any generation.

And comparing to SVOU - not to use a broken check broken argument, but we lack the revenge/reverse sweep capabilities of Zamazenta and Kingambit, having banned them. This makes the snowball effect in ND much greater and Offense teams can more easily reach escape velocity without punishment. The spiritual extension of banning Zoobi Doobi Doo (the dog) is to rein in other offensive threats. Banning Darkrai and Gouging Fire were good steps.

Where does Tera fit in? Removing Tera reduces the stackability of Offense. I firmly believe the offensive utility of Tera on a team outweighs defensive utility now, clearly skewing the viability/diversity of playstyles in Offense’s favor. It’s up to the community to decide if we like this meta. Personally feels like a game of rock-paper-scissors at the moment.

 

[sh0shin]

At the expense of repeating myself in the Tiering thread, yeah, Tera is holding the tier back. It is a bit sad it's taken nearly 2 years for us to circle back to this from initial suspecting with detractors from the Tera-ban train nowhere to be seen in these discussions, or, funny enough, only playing SSND these days. Seriously, where are the opps on this issue lol, seems almost unanimous now to ban it. But I am hopeful we have some time left to try the tier without Tera in some way before the next gen rolls around inevitably. Giff survey pls

 

[Patar136]

Not totally convinced that banning tera will fix everything but for argument's sake, let's say that this happens. Let's say Tera is banned. It's time for me to throw in my cents on who should come back.

My proposal for the Pokemon we should free in a Generation 9 Tera-less National Dex Metagame. And who we shouldn't.

What should come back. From least intrusive to most.

This seems obvious. Without Tera there is absolutely no way this thing is broken. Walled by ground types and many others. This is a no brainer.

I know some people are going to crucify this idea, but Kingambit actually played a very big role in stabilizing the metagame when it was around. The real reason that made it broken can be attributed to tera. Being able to Tera Fairy/Flying/Water/Fire/Dark just pushed this thing over the edge, pun intended, with its standard sets. Furthermore, this seems like a very good anti-offense Pokemon that can help balance teams become popular again as a sort of catch all backup to a lot of Pokemon running around. It's good for defensive teams too since they now have a pursuit trapper that isn't named Tyranitar while also having the means to use priority. I am going to say that we should free the chess piece that allows for the metagame to improve forward, not backward.

This one could be a lot tougher to justify on paper but when you break it all down, there is a lot holding this metallic monster back. Without being able to Tera it can't brute force its way against things that it could do previously. Yes it can be very threatening but not any more threatening than it is in Generation 8. A team that can't answer Melmetal also can't answer something like Ursaluna very well either, so I don't see it as restrictive. Just a powerful wallbreaker you gotta play around, like in Generation 8.

Bring back the suicune dinosaur as this was a very annoying Pokemon to face when it could Tera Fire, Fairy, Water, Grass etc. Without that option, it's just a powerful wallbreaker on sun teams and maybe some rain teams. Also for the record, it's presence would probably not be as bad as Gouging Fire since it can't use something like Quiver Dance, unlike Volcarona who can and nobody has mentioned banning that. See this as a good Pokemon to test at the least.

Without tera, I seriously don't think this thing is broken. In a metagame where the best Pokemon is naturally faster and immune to its STAB attacks, where Raging Bolt is around, where Tapu Lele is around and where Strong yes, capable of breaking teams with the right support, of course, it's why it's lower compared to the others. However, a Pokemon that is good at breaking stall and defensive teams isn't automatically a bad thing. It means that yes, you need to be able to apply some sort of pressure. Also would help incentivize more rocky helmet Alomomola, which is a good thing. Makes the metagame less stale when it's constant boots regenerator action.

I'll post more later but these are my thoughts. Before you call me crazy, just try to hear me out. You will probably at least agree with one or two of my ideas.

 

[Moisture99]

I'll be honest, as of right now SV NDOU is possibly the worst tier I've ever played in a PL. I haven't really touched it since DLC2 came out since there were tiers worth giving a shit about again, but I was stunned at just how horrendous this tier has became since it dropped. Bulkier styles feel outright unplayable, there are way too many broken sweepers in the tier and nowhere near enough overlap between them. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever sign up for SV OU for NDPL again unless this tier gets damn near overhauled with bans or unbans, NDRU is so much more enjoyable and I've been helping a ton with tests and building and its so much more fun to play.

Agree with the general sentiment, this is probably the worst iteration of NDOU in a while. We're just playing whack-a-mole with offensive threat of the month, and I don't think more mons bans will address the core issue. Unlike SVOU, tera actively makes this tier worse since it forces us to ban all the good anti-cheese glue - every pro-ban voter saw this outcome from a mile away back in 2023... the banning mons over tera route was never gonna make the tier better. Ironically, SVOU is significantly easier to build in despite us having a much larger banlist. Not sure what can be done at this point, this tier seems doomed.

Regardless of previous takes, zama-hero was a big broken bitch. You're making it sound like a physical wall when it was a braindead broken sweeper which took a fat 0 from any physical attacker. Banning it is for sure the right move, and that was also back when ghold was in the tier to check it. It was incredibly overwhelming and restrictive.
Also dnite isn't that bad, it's usually pretty easy to guess the set, which is whatever fucks your team the hardest.

Nitpick, but gholdengo was already banned quite a while before zamazenta got suspected. Losing gholdengo was a big deal since it's ironpress zamazenta's most viable and splashable counter back in SVOU.

Not totally convinced that banning tera will fix everything but for argument's sake, let's say that this happens. Let's say Tera is banned. It's time for me to throw in my cents on who should come back.
My proposal for the Pokemon we should free in a Generation 9 Tera-less National Dex Metagame. And who we shouldn't.

You could probably reverse every single suspect ban since and including Kingambit if tera were banned. Kind of pointless to discuss though since there is little chance a third tera suspect even occurs in the first place.

A tera suspect is out of the question and an entire year of 'progress' has left us worse off than when Kingambit was still around. No chance this happens, but I would support unbanning almost the entire list of suspected mons since Kingambit. Kingambit would really be the only one still broken since the other guys all check each other. This tier is a broken mess anyway, so I'd rather deal with Kingambit than whatever this garbage is.

 

[sluGGy]

Anything I post will just be a sick regurgitation of what's already been said over and over, and over again. Even then, if more pebbles need to be thrown in hopes of the ripple being strong enough to move the tier forward, call me in.

My experiences are futile and have no weight for the following argument, as 3 months of active participation in the tier and 4 rounds of SSNL are no where near enough for my opinions to have any validity. But honestly, I have not seen one single person completely be in favour of Tera when it comes to the long term health of the tier. The most common argument I saw (mainly on the Tiering Thread) when it came to it's defense was that it would have a minimal impact on the meta being so offensively skewing that it overshadows almost any other playstyle, to which I agree to some extent. By nature of including every mon and mechanic, National Dex will be more offensively leaning, especially in a generation introducing insane levels of power creep. Regardless, Tera seems to be a heavy aiding factor into the cesspool of offense-spamming shenanigans that this tier has become, even though we can't ignore it allows for some sort of counterplay to the stupid ammount of offensive threats.

Also, Kokoloko is not the answer. It's incredibly unrealistic to expect that a ban wave will make the tier enjoyable, or salvageable, rather. This is because some of the mons that are made to be the culprits of the current state of things haven't been fully fleshed out yet, barring the current outliars of Wogerpon, and maybe Kyurem (and even Bolt?). Two suspects have been previously made with both of them resulting in favor of the mechanic being kept. Even with that, all I've seen is a contionous current of disatisfaction and distate towards it, from light despisement to utter hatred.

With the looming possibility of a third suspect not being possible, or being unsuccesful, I'd like to propose that a Tera-less Ladder should be tested, or at least discussed. I'm aware that the idea of a Tera-less Ladder has been discussed before, or at least I hope it has been, only for it to be shutdown, due to mainly how incredibly unserious the main ladder already is. But I'd still like to see some discussion on its possibility, so we can have some sort of breathing room to explore what a Tera Ban metagame looks like.

With that said, I implore the council to show active efforts towards the community's sentiments in form of a survey in the midst of NDPL, and not afterwards. Maybe a following survey could include a vote on whether there should be a Tera-Less Ladder available, preferably following NDPL. But in conclusion, I feel that the possiblity of Tera Sus 3 should still be pushed even if it somewhat goes against policy. And I repeat, Kokoloko is not the answer.

 

[sh0shin]

With the looming possibility of a third suspect not being possible, or being unsuccesful, I'd like to propose that a Tera-less Ladder should be tested, or at least discussed. I'm aware that the idea of a Tera-less Ladder has been discussed before, or at least I hope it has been, only for it to be shutdown, due to mainly how incredibly unserious the main ladder already is. But I'd still like to see some discussion on its possibility, so we can have some sort of breathing room to explore what a Tera Ban metagame looks like.

This, though not sure if technically feasible, even if just temporary. Would be great to test out or have on the side.

 

[about15gals]

Not totally convinced that banning tera will fix everything but for argument's sake, let's say that this happens. Let's say Tera is banned. It's time for me to throw in my cents on who should come back.

My proposal for the Pokemon we should free in a Generation 9 Tera-less National Dex Metagame. And who we shouldn't.

What should come back. From least intrusive to most.

This seems obvious. Without Tera there is absolutely no way this thing is broken. Walled by ground types and many others. This is a no brainer.

I know some people are going to crucify this idea, but Kingambit actually played a very big role in stabilizing the metagame when it was around. The real reason that made it broken can be attributed to tera. Being able to Tera Fairy/Flying/Water/Fire/Dark just pushed this thing over the edge, pun intended, with its standard sets. Furthermore, this seems like a very good anti-offense Pokemon that can help balance teams become popular again as a sort of catch all backup to a lot of Pokemon running around. It's good for defensive teams too since they now have a pursuit trapper that isn't named Tyranitar while also having the means to use priority. I am going to say that we should free the chess piece that allows for the metagame to improve forward, not backward.

This one could be a lot tougher to justify on paper but when you break it all down, there is a lot holding this metallic monster back. Without being able to Tera it can't brute force its way against things that it could do previously. Yes it can be very threatening but not any more threatening than it is in Generation 8. A team that can't answer Melmetal also can't answer something like Ursaluna very well either, so I don't see it as restrictive. Just a powerful wallbreaker you gotta play around, like in Generation 8.

Bring back the suicune dinosaur as this was a very annoying Pokemon to face when it could Tera Fire, Fairy, Water, Grass etc. Without that option, it's just a powerful wallbreaker on sun teams and maybe some rain teams. Also for the record, it's presence would probably not be as bad as Gouging Fire since it can't use something like Quiver Dance, unlike Volcarona who can and nobody has mentioned banning that. See this as a good Pokemon to test at the least.

Without tera, I seriously don't think this thing is broken. In a metagame where the best Pokemon is naturally faster and immune to its STAB attacks, where Raging Bolt is around, where Tapu Lele is around and where Strong yes, capable of breaking teams with the right support, of course, it's why it's lower compared to the others. However, a Pokemon that is good at breaking stall and defensive teams isn't automatically a bad thing. It means that yes, you need to be able to apply some sort of pressure. Also would help incentivize more rocky helmet Alomomola, which is a good thing. Makes the metagame less stale when it's constant boots regenerator action.

I'll post more later but these are my thoughts. Before you call me crazy, just try to hear me out. You will probably at least agree with one or two of my ideas.

you're severely underestimating the power of palafin lmao, band sets in the rain can 2hko pex after the barest amount of chip (or just kill outright if they choose to run wave crash), can pack close combat for ferro and even run jet punch for a very strong pirority option to beat offense. hell you can even run scarf because its speed tier isn't THAT bad to blow offense out of the water with good predictions.

yikes

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Rain: 126-149 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Rain: 178-210 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

wake is also 100% not happening, that mon is still absurd on sun because of how well it complements yard and co, not even counting raging bolt's additions to the metagame it had 0 switchins pre tera and has 0 post tera, especially if it runs Z or specs

my personal hot take is that maybe we take a 2nd look at zama post tera ban. it'd probably still be broken but with how overbearing idbp + tera was i can fathom a world where its somewhat ok to deal with

 

[Oculars]

Pala without tera wouldnt be too insane as it takes atleast one dead turn to get its form meaning no immediate power and the broken tera steel bulk up sets would be gone

 

[Sami]

Bring back the suicune dinosaur as this was a very annoying Pokemon to face when it could Tera Fire, Fairy, Water, Grass etc. Without that option, it's just a powerful wallbreaker on sun teams and maybe some rain teams. Also for the record, it's presence would probably not be as bad as Gouging Fire since it can't use something like Quiver Dance, unlike Volcarona who can and nobody has mentioned banning that. See this as a good Pokemon to test at the least.

I think Walking Wake would still be broken simply because having Mega Charizard Y in NDOU is significantly better than having Torkoal in SV OU. If you take a look at the VR, there isn't much that can handle both of them, since answers to Mega Charizard Y, such as Mega Tyranitar, SpD Garchomp and Raging Bolt are blown up by Walking Wake's STAB, while answers to the Walking Wake itself are overwhelmed by the two of them working togther. It'd just make the tier more centralized around either offensive weather strategies (i.e playing aggressively with Mega Tyranitar or using Rain, which Walking Wake also benefits from which is just absurd) or using much more niche options like Kantonian Slowking to slow them down, which certainly isn't viable outside of this niche. As for how strong Walking Wake is... it's pretty strong:

walking wake calcs

Choice Specs Hydro Steam
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele in Sun: 252-297 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Sun: 216-254 (63.3 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Garchomp in Sun: 240-283 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui in Sun: 201-237 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Serperior in Sun: 148-175 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Sun: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 244 HP / 48 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian in Sun: 198-234 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Choice Specs Dragon STAB
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 306-361 (94.7 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Tera Flying Raging Bolt: 339-400 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 384-453 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 316-373 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kills with 2 dracos)
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Archaludon: 292-345 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 172-204 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 252-297 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Choice Specs Flamethrower
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 208-248 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Iron Crown in Sun: 218-258 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Sun: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Keep in mind that this is just the Choice Specs set, basically making every turn a gamble against it in Sun since it can hit pretty much every mon for at least neutral, and hard too. It doesn't even have to rely on Mega Charizard Y for Sun either - I recall Sunny Day sets being usable as well, abusing the switches it made. Walking Wake simply hits too hard and forces teams to either have multiple answers to it, or have a way of out-offensing it, neither of which are healthy IMO.

 

[Patar136]

I think I'm willing to concede on Walking Wake. That thing probably is too strong still since it can be both a sun wallbreaker and an anti sun wallbreaker. Maybe next gen it won't be as strong. However, I am not convinced on Palafin. No, you can't just blank choice band with Toxapex but you are forced to run scarf just so you're not completely walled by, or severely punished, by Waterpon and that can be punished with teambuilding, AKA, pairing Waterpon with stuff like Bolt, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Volcanion, Tapu Fini to punish its other attacks. It would be strong but not any more unreasonable than rain in general which Toxapex doesn't do very well against either.

Onto some more mons I have considered.

Put frankly, this is a way to make defensive teams better and fatter since an addition of an actual good ghost type would help defensive builds gain some backbone. And if we decide to retest Zamazenta, something I don't necessarily want, then this thing frankly needs to come back. You can say that blocking defog was pushing it over the edge but that is a good weapon for defensive teams who's primary way of dealing damage is passive damage. It's not that fast and unlike in standard SV OU we can pursuit trap this thing with Tyranitar, a freed Kingambit and even stuff like Weavile who has risen in usage. Tera is what broke this. Being able to tera fairy to avoid getting killed by Mega-Lopunny or any random dark pulse, knock off, pursuit attempt, being able to tera water to prevent getting hit by a rain boosted water attack, tera flying to avoid earthquake from Landorus, Great Tusk, Garchomp... those are what broke this Pokemon. So without tera we get another viable ghost who's strong but not overbearing.

Okay, this one might be a hard sell but let's consider this. Defensively, this mon has a lot of shortcomings and is far slower than everything else I have considered testing. Could calm mind sets prove to be too strong, potentially, I admit. However, without tera there are a lot easier means by which you can play against this thing that don't require you to compromise in the building process. All good teams should have some means to hit ground types superffectively or otherwise limit their wallbreaking capabilities. If we have Ursaluna running around, with tera mind you, I don't see why we can't at least test the other bear. The best argument you can make is that a Pokemon that can wall one ursaluna can't wall the other, but again, slow, relatively bad typing and many ways to overwhelm.

Now I'm gonna just go through Pokemon I DON'T think should come back just so that some people don't think that I want pure chaos. Gonna be quick. Mons I am unsure about are Baxcalibur and Terapagos. Somebody can assess if either should be considered.

This one could be debated but I would argue it's just unhealthy to have this be a brainless wincon that can win on the spot if you make a mistake. Maybe with Gholdengo running around we could test it but even with Gholdengo I'm not sure how much fun this would be to play with. Still, could probably be considered.

On one hand, pursuit weak and we have adapted our meta to face powerful dragon attackers. On the other hand, it's still very fast and has limited counterplay. We can probably keep this banned for good reason.

This one is not something that should be freed because even though weak to rocks, it's very strong still with perfect coverage and is far too fast. We don't need proof this thing is busted.

Some might cry foul but the idea of stored power being a brainless strategy is not something the tier needs. If you do not run tyranitar or kingambit, you should not lose on the spot just for the other team having this thing.

What if Hawlucha was 100% worse to deal with? No thanks.

I hope I don't have to explain why this is stupid so I can move on.

, , , They are all in the same boat of being too strong offensively. Even without tera, they are monsters to deal with. Would rather right Landorus Incarnate or Shaymin-Sky before we ever had to fight these monstrosities.

 

[about15gals]

I think I'm willing to concede on Walking Wake. That thing probably is too strong still since it can be both a sun wallbreaker and an anti sun wallbreaker. Maybe next gen it won't be as strong. However, I am not convinced on Palafin. No, you can't just blank choice band with Toxapex but you are forced to run scarf just so you're not completely walled by, or severely punished, by Waterpon and that can be punished with teambuilding, AKA, pairing Waterpon with stuff like Bolt, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Volcanion, Tapu Fini to punish its other attacks. It would be strong but not any more unreasonable than rain in general which Toxapex doesn't do very well against either.

Onto some more mons I have considered.

Put frankly, this is a way to make defensive teams better and fatter since an addition of an actual good ghost type would help defensive builds gain some backbone. And if we decide to retest Zamazenta, something I don't necessarily want, then this thing frankly needs to come back. You can say that blocking defog was pushing it over the edge but that is a good weapon for defensive teams who's primary way of dealing damage is passive damage. It's not that fast and unlike in standard SV OU we can pursuit trap this thing with Tyranitar, a freed Kingambit and even stuff like Weavile who has risen in usage. Tera is what broke this. Being able to tera fairy to avoid getting killed by Mega-Lopunny or any random dark pulse, knock off, pursuit attempt, being able to tera water to prevent getting hit by a rain boosted water attack, tera flying to avoid earthquake from Landorus, Great Tusk, Garchomp... those are what broke this Pokemon. So without tera we get another viable ghost who's strong but not overbearing.

Okay, this one might be a hard sell but let's consider this. Defensively, this mon has a lot of shortcomings and is far slower than everything else I have considered testing. Could calm mind sets prove to be too strong, potentially, I admit. However, without tera there are a lot easier means by which you can play against this thing that don't require you to compromise in the building process. All good teams should have some means to hit ground types superffectively or otherwise limit their wallbreaking capabilities. If we have Ursaluna running around, with tera mind you, I don't see why we can't at least test the other bear. The best argument you can make is that a Pokemon that can wall one ursaluna can't wall the other, but again, slow, relatively bad typing and many ways to overwhelm.

Now I'm gonna just go through Pokemon I DON'T think should come back just so that some people don't think that I want pure chaos. Gonna be quick. Mons I am unsure about are Baxcalibur and Terapagos. Somebody can assess if either should be considered.

This one could be debated but I would argue it's just unhealthy to have this be a brainless wincon that can win on the spot if you make a mistake. Maybe with Gholdengo running around we could test it but even with Gholdengo I'm not sure how much fun this would be to play with. Still, could probably be considered.

On one hand, pursuit weak and we have adapted our meta to face powerful dragon attackers. On the other hand, it's still very fast and has limited counterplay. We can probably keep this banned for good reason.

This one is not something that should be freed because even though weak to rocks, it's very strong still with perfect coverage and is far too fast. We don't need proof this thing is busted.

Some might cry foul but the idea of stored power being a brainless strategy is not something the tier needs. If you do not run tyranitar or kingambit, you should not lose on the spot just for the other team having this thing.

What if Hawlucha was 100% worse to deal with? No thanks.

I hope I don't have to explain why this is stupid so I can move on.

, , , They are all in the same boat of being too strong offensively. Even without tera, they are monsters to deal with. Would rather right Landorus Incarnate or Shaymin-Sky before we ever had to fight these monstrosities.

espathra is completely manageable without tera. it has dogshit coverage the only thing going for it was tblast fighting becuase otherwise it's incapable of hitting steels whatsoever outside of non-stab sball

ghold and bluna should not get freed lmao

ghold doesnt even want to tera super often, its got the best typing defensively and one of the best abilites of all time, hazard stack hellscape v2 if it gets freed

blood moon ursaluna is regular ursaluna but its unable to be intimidated and can't be pivoted around with ghost types. also its not taking 8% a turn and can't be cheesed w/ ferro/helm please do not free that shit

sneasler is hella uncompetitive dont free it lmao

hearthflame is a question mark, I'm leaning towards keep it banned but it should probably be looked at

others are broken alr dont need to free them

 

[thebestever543]

I think I'm willing to concede on Walking Wake. That thing probably is too strong still since it can be both a sun wallbreaker and an anti sun wallbreaker. Maybe next gen it won't be as strong. However, I am not convinced on Palafin. No, you can't just blank choice band with Toxapex but you are forced to run scarf just so you're not completely walled by, or severely punished, by Waterpon and that can be punished with teambuilding, AKA, pairing Waterpon with stuff like Bolt, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Volcanion, Tapu Fini to punish its other attacks. It would be strong but not any more unreasonable than rain in general which Toxapex doesn't do very well against either.

Onto some more mons I have considered.

Put frankly, this is a way to make defensive teams better and fatter since an addition of an actual good ghost type would help defensive builds gain some backbone. And if we decide to retest Zamazenta, something I don't necessarily want, then this thing frankly needs to come back. You can say that blocking defog was pushing it over the edge but that is a good weapon for defensive teams who's primary way of dealing damage is passive damage. It's not that fast and unlike in standard SV OU we can pursuit trap this thing with Tyranitar, a freed Kingambit and even stuff like Weavile who has risen in usage. Tera is what broke this. Being able to tera fairy to avoid getting killed by Mega-Lopunny or any random dark pulse, knock off, pursuit attempt, being able to tera water to prevent getting hit by a rain boosted water attack, tera flying to avoid earthquake from Landorus, Great Tusk, Garchomp... those are what broke this Pokemon. So without tera we get another viable ghost who's strong but not overbearing.

Okay, this one might be a hard sell but let's consider this. Defensively, this mon has a lot of shortcomings and is far slower than everything else I have considered testing. Could calm mind sets prove to be too strong, potentially, I admit. However, without tera there are a lot easier means by which you can play against this thing that don't require you to compromise in the building process. All good teams should have some means to hit ground types superffectively or otherwise limit their wallbreaking capabilities. If we have Ursaluna running around, with tera mind you, I don't see why we can't at least test the other bear. The best argument you can make is that a Pokemon that can wall one ursaluna can't wall the other, but again, slow, relatively bad typing and many ways to overwhelm.

Now I'm gonna just go through Pokemon I DON'T think should come back just so that some people don't think that I want pure chaos. Gonna be quick. Mons I am unsure about are Baxcalibur and Terapagos. Somebody can assess if either should be considered.

This one could be debated but I would argue it's just unhealthy to have this be a brainless wincon that can win on the spot if you make a mistake. Maybe with Gholdengo running around we could test it but even with Gholdengo I'm not sure how much fun this would be to play with. Still, could probably be considered.

On one hand, pursuit weak and we have adapted our meta to face powerful dragon attackers. On the other hand, it's still very fast and has limited counterplay. We can probably keep this banned for good reason.

This one is not something that should be freed because even though weak to rocks, it's very strong still with perfect coverage and is far too fast. We don't need proof this thing is busted.

Some might cry foul but the idea of stored power being a brainless strategy is not something the tier needs. If you do not run tyranitar or kingambit, you should not lose on the spot just for the other team having this thing.

What if Hawlucha was 100% worse to deal with? No thanks.

I hope I don't have to explain why this is stupid so I can move on.

, , , They are all in the same boat of being too strong offensively. Even without tera, they are monsters to deal with. Would rather right Landorus Incarnate or Shaymin-Sky before we ever had to fight these monstrosities.

In response to Zama, without tera this mon is fine and especially with Gholdengo! Tera Steel makes it really difficult to revenge kill with special attackers and you can setup on physical attackers with Iron Defense to the point super effective attacks aren’t threatening. All I’m saying is it would be much harder to pull off and less consistent at winning against what I expect to be a more balanced meta. You’d still be pretty good into Offense but would be locked into Crunch/Heavy Slam which makes you exploitable.
I don’t even think ID would be the primary set anymore, we could see Z or boots a lot more because it’s much easier to revenge kill Zama without Tera. Now begs the question, will those sets make Zama broken, hard to say with certainty but I doubt it. However, Z electric is a pretty solid option that deals with many of non-cb Zamas switch-ins like Corv, Skarm, Pex, Slowbro, Mola. Things like Tangrowth, Clefable and defensive Gholdengo (if allowed) and are also decent into Zama that aren’t threatened by Z electric. It’s worth noting that Gholdengo’s presence would force Zama into running crunch on every set. CC, Crunch and you’d have to choose between Ice Fang, Heavy Slam and Stone Edge, and if you’re running Z then Wild Charge. There’s definitely some element of 4mss but even with perfect coverage, Zama doesn’t sound broken to me.

 

[Patar136]

The more I think about it, the more I want certain Pokemon freed in a Tera less metagame. Free Kingambit, Gholdengo, Melmetal and test Palafin. Maybe test Ursaluna-Bloodmoon. The biggest thing that people resoundingly want is defensive teams to be buffed. Which the former two of Kingambit and Gholdengo certainly accomplish. The former is a crucial anti-offense mon that can help you fight back against both Hyper Offense and even some weather teams. Gholdengo would make hazard stacking viable again and also allow you to threaten teams with hazard/passive damage. Nobody seems to be claiming that Melmetal is gonna be busted and even if Palafin could be, which I doubt, a test certainly seems fair. Waterpon alone beats standard sets aside from maybe Scarf, which is something that is restrictive for it.

As much fun as it would be to bring something like Lugia into the tier I don't wanna expend energy on that hill and would rather stick to the main four I mentioned.

 

[Moyashi]

. Gholdengo would make hazard stacking viable again and also allow you to threaten teams with hazard/passive damage.

You can already do both. Hazard stacking is plenty viable in this meta and you're able to pressure teams with hazards and passive damage. You don't need Gholdengo for that. And anyways, I'd be skeptical about touching this even in a nontera metagame. But it might be slightly less egregious than other stuff.

Some might cry foul but the idea of stored power being a brainless strategy is not something the tier needs. If you do not run tyranitar or kingambit, you should not lose on the spot just for the other team having this thing.

On another note, this mon is match up fishy at best in a hypothetical non Tera metagame and wouldn't be super consistent or good at all. Especially if you ended up unbanning Gambit and Dengo alongside it, as both completely sit on it, while other pokemon similarly stuff it completely (MTtar pursuits it, MZor walls it, Ferro and Crown dumpster it as well).

If we have Ursaluna running around, with tera mind you, I don't see why we can't at least test the other bear. The best argument you can make is that a Pokemon that can wall one ursaluna can't wall the other, but again, slow, relatively bad typing and many ways to overwhelm.

Lastly, this is just a big fat no from me. What it loses in its ability to dominate offense without Tera, it still flattens defensive teams that don't pack hyper specific pokemon. This is such a bizarre comparison when regular Luna quickly wears itself out through hazards, contact punishing like Helmet/Ferro/Chomp, and has to deal with some prediction games while Bloodmoon has excellent longevity thanks to reliable recovery and it can batter teams much more efficiently and consistently. There's also the argument that you could just throw it on terrain teams with a seed and use it as a wincon once its primary answer is gone.

Without tera, I seriously don't think this thing is broken. In a metagame where the best Pokemon is naturally faster and immune to its STAB attacks, where Raging Bolt is around, where Tapu Lele is around and where Strong yes, capable of breaking teams with the right support, of course, it's why it's lower compared to the others. However, a Pokemon that is good at breaking stall and defensive teams isn't automatically a bad thing. It means that yes, you need to be able to apply some sort of pressure. Also would help incentivize more rocky helmet Alomomola, which is a good thing. Makes the metagame less stale when it's constant boots regenerator action.

Palafin is a bit harder to argue against since it was banned at the start of the gen (near the start anyways), But your argument in support of it in a nontera meta could be better. Using logic like "incentivises rocky helmet Mola" and "makes the metagame less stale when it's constant boots regenerator action" when our current metagame is the furthest thing from such a state, is not helping make a good case for it. (also the best pokemon in the tier is weak to it and it's name is Landorus-T).

 

[Patar136]

My problem with Espathra is that it still gets dazzling gleam which means that after some calm minds it can still spiral out of control. There is also the issue of it being able to brute force its way past stall with a set of calm mind, dazzling gleam, stored power and substitute. Without the ability to tera, that means that you can't tera dark against Espathra either. Which means you are limited to getting into a calm mind war with Mega Sableye or using knock off and hoping for the best (which against grassy terrain may not even work too well.) Granted, if we unban Kingambit and Gholdengo then maybe this can be mitigated a lot more easily. But still skeptical.

Palafin is a bit harder to argue against since it was banned at the start of the gen (near the start anyways), But your argument in support of it in a nontera meta could be better. Using logic like "incentivises rocky helmet Mola" and "makes the metagame less stale when it's constant boots regenerator action" when our current metagame is the furthest thing from such a state, is not helping make a good case for it. (also the best pokemon in the tier is weak to it and it's name is Landorus-T).

I admit I could phrase my arguments better but my statements aren't entirely without merit. I feel like our meta can handle Palafin a lot more easily now since Waterpon is around to stuff the best sets, while Raging Bolt and even Alomomola can help pivot around this thing. The best argument against testing Palafin I have heard is that it is too strong on stuff like rain (which I can somewhat sympathize with.) However, I think that testing Palafin seems reasonable compared to testing a lot of the rest of potential suspects. And honestly, I feel like waterpon is just as obnoxious to fight if not more than Palafin. Toxapex may not like getting taunted but getting Encored by Waterpon is arguably worse. I will admit, if we do decide to just ban Waterpon for some reason then I will concede that Palafin should stay Uber.

 

[Moyashi]

With a new tiering survey ongoing, I think it's helpful to just share thoughts on some things and get some discussion going. Not that I think there's much to say that hasn't been said in recent times, but hey.

Both enjoyment and balance factor feel around the same to me, a 5 personally. While I've appreciated the absence of Gouging Fire (banning was the right move), there's still an overload of difficult to answer threats that compiled on top of one another, lead to building frustrations especially when trying to make balance work. Even if some threats aren't an issue individually, their impact is amplified by one another and it just ends up feeling like building offense will just be better. It's one thing to have a tier with offense being the stronger playstyle, it's another when it feels like you're straight up better off just running offense because it's too hard to make balance work. Even with pokemon like Garganacl who can offer some respite for these teams, it's usually not enough because there's still to many problem match ups you can't cover. It feels like you're just picking some things to cover and hope you don't run into the match ups you're weakest into, and if you do, hope to hell you're able to outplay it somehow. I don't find this a desirable dynamic at all.

Ogerpon-Wellspring and Kyurem feel like the most immediate issues (I put Wellspring at 5 and Kyurem at 4). which is funny because I know that the former gets overprepped for leading to it not doing as well as you'd think for it being called broken so often, and Kyurem can have some inconsistency issues. However the fact the tier is so offensive leading to their slightly reduced threat (because offense handles them better), is just a sign of problems the tier has. Balance still has highly limited anti Ogerpon-W tech that isn't super specific, and some of its better counterplay has become less common and viable (Mega Latis, MVenu). Kyurem meanwhile I've come to dislike more with the sheer versatility. Again, offense handles it better but for balance teams there's an annoying lack of consistent responses. Mega Scizor works well enough for most sets, handling specs, subroost and various DD variants, and Garganacl can help vs subroost and some DD variants, but when factoring Tera it feels like too much counterplay to it is just circumstantial and unreliable.

Rain feels like a weird topic because at times it feels like it can be handled fine, but other times if you're not building with it in mind it can feel annoying and difficult to handle. My main problem with Rain isn't any one individual pokemon, but again, the presence of too many threats at once. Rain heads like Archaludon don't feel overwhelming at all by themselves, but stacking it, Mega Pert, Zapdos, Barraskewda, Raging Bolt all together (not all on the same time, obviously some mix of these together) and then it can start to feel a bit much. I know rain hasn't had the big success of brokens you'd expect to have, but it's just one more collection of annoying threats on top of an already big pile, and this issue is made worse by Tera allowing these threats to circumvent counterplay or simply overwhelm checks for one another.

Iron Crown and Dragonite I think are low on the "problem" meter, though Crown slightly higher just because its Calm Mind sets have some annoying snowball potential made possible by Tera. Dragonite I feel is a major example of "not individually a problem, but amplified by the presence of other threats" because it by itself can struggle with fitting moves to get past everything. However it's too easy to stack powerful threats next to it and overwhelm shared checks for one or the other to go crazy with, and this is again, amplified by Tera which adds to the "threats I have to check off when building" list. Crown is by itself just a great piece of offense, offering a blanket check to a slew of tougher special threats (lele cough), and by itself I don't have an issue with it. It's the Calm Mind+Stored Power antics it can get up to with Tera enabling it to cheese past its checks that bother me, with potential to get out of hand quickly.

Terastilization meanwhile is the biggest elephant in the room by far. Multiple of the mons on the survey as well as past banned pokemon, and even mons not on the survey who aren't issues necessarily but add to the threat saturation issue, abuse Tera in various borderline or straight problematic ways. In the beginning the was the belief that Tera could be used to help defensive teams keep up with offense, offering emergency outs vs match ups you couldn't prep for and risked losing to otherwise, and while this may have been true in the earlier, less developed metagame, it's just not so anymore. There's simply too many threats to account now, too many BIG threats which themselves can require tera as a reactive response to contain them during battle. Terastilization artificially bumps up the amount of threats to account for to an unreasonable extent and while some Tera types have overlapping counterplay, this isn't common enough a scenario.

Just going through notable threats that abuse Tera, we've got Raging Bolt, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Iron Crown, Urshifu-R, Dragonite, Gliscor (SD Variants), Volcarona, Archaludon, Barraskewda, Iron Moth, Kyurem... Some more dangerous than others, but my point is checking this long list without factoring Tera is one thing. But with Tera it's a beast that I don't see how it's realistically possible to do while maintaining a healthy, balanced metagame. I probably missed some too, and I could go into how some banned pokemon would be perfectly healthy for the tier without Tera around and even offering helpful tools to teambuilding (Kingambit coming to mind immediately). I think Terastilization at this point makes the metagame far too skewed towards offense, far too volatile and is simply not a balanced mechanic. I don't know how possible it is to examine it again, but I honestly hope it is.

This got really wordy, way more than I initially intended, but I ended up having more to say than I thought at first. Would really love to hear what other players think or feel, if they have anything to add or have differing thoughts on some matters.

 

[The N@me User]

I don't mean to be contentious, but I do have a peeve about this:

Announcement Post in thread 'National Dex Player Surveys'

Oct 14, 2024

As NDPL V races towards the finale along with circuit playoffs quickly approaching, there is another tiering survey! Notably, this survey features questions concerning a few controversial Pokemon with a guest appearance from everyone's favorite generational mechanic.

The rough deadline for this will be about a week from now, let myself or Kyo know if you have any questions or concerns; we look forward to reading everyone's responses!

• sealoo

• 
• 
• 

Why are the questions only translated for the Chinese player base when theoretically we have players from other communities that may play the tier?

From a quick check, there's a bulk of Spanish and Portuguese speakers of comparable size to the Chinese language chat that may also play the tier, although I understand not all of the mods are able to perfectly translate everything to all languages, especially as there's also smaller groups as well

Don't get me wrong, maybe there's less Spanish speakers that play NDOU than Chinese speakers that play NDOU, but I wouldn't know this, and it seemed odd after coming back and noticing:

Example pics

To clarify, I don't mean to be contentious or start anything, but just something I was wondering that came to mind when I saw it

 

[FayaWizard]

I don't mean to be contentious, but I do have a peeve about this:

Announcement Post in thread 'National Dex Player Surveys'

Oct 14, 2024

As NDPL V races towards the finale along with circuit playoffs quickly approaching, there is another tiering survey! Notably, this survey features questions concerning a few controversial Pokemon with a guest appearance from everyone's favorite generational mechanic.

The rough deadline for this will be about a week from now, let myself or Kyo know if you have any questions or concerns; we look forward to reading everyone's responses!

• sealoo

• 
• 
• 

Why are the questions only translated for the Chinese player base when theoretically we have players from other communities that may play the tier?

From a quick check, there's a bulk of Spanish and Portuguese speakers of comparable size to the Chinese language chat that may also play the tier, although I understand not all of the mods are able to perfectly translate everything to all languages, especially as there's also smaller groups as well

Don't get me wrong, maybe there's less Spanish speakers that play NDOU than Chinese speakers that play NDOU, but I wouldn't know this, and it seemed odd after coming back and noticing:

Example pics

View attachment 679347View attachment 679348View attachment 679349

To clarify, I don't mean to be contentious or start anything, but just something I was wondering that came to mind when I saw it

Historically the Chinese playerbase has been a sizable portion for Natdex's overall playerbase that had little contact with the main Natdex playerbase, infamously leading to the second Tera suspect's results where the Chinese playerbase overwhelmingly voted DNB and flipping the vote, surprising the Western playerbase massively, due to said lack of communication. Thus, the Natdex leadership has been taking steps to connect the two communities, as it would be a disservice to have such a large chunk of the playerbase without much communication, as well as ensure the council can gather more accurate results so something like the Tera suspect doesn't happen again.

Of course, no hate to the Spanish and Portugal playerbase, but it has been shown to be a problem in the past with the lack of communication between the US and Chinese playerbases + they are frankly more active than the Spanish or Portugal (you will encounter much more Chinese names on ladder, for example), so the leadership is taking steps to bridge that gap. In the future, perhaps they could branch out further, but there just isn't the evidence to show that the other communities are underrepresented to the same level as the Chinese playerbase in proportion to their actual involvement in the tier.

 

[1234hjkl]

... no hate to the Spanish and Portugal playerbase, but it has been shown to be a problem in the past with the lack of communication between the US and Chinese playerbases + they are frankly more active than the Spanish or Portugal (you will encounter much more Chinese names on ladder, for example)

Nitpick but do not refer the Portuguese speaking fanbase as Portugal, refer simple as Portuguese, while I not denying there are some Portugal players, a big amount of portuguese speaking players are from Brazil, the room intro even says:
"Aqui tem pastel de natal, samba e futebol..."

Anyway let's suspect Tera pretty please, that mechanic has overstayed it's welcome. For a better meta.

 

[Patar136]

Suspect Tera as long as it leads to Kingambit, Gholdengo and Melmetal and maybe Palafin being freed. (Eat me Palafin haters. Waterpon still exists.)

Release the King! RELEASE THE KING!

 

[harryw1889]

ban tera

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Suspect Tera as long as it leads to Kingambit, Gholdengo and Melmetal and maybe Palafin being freed. (Eat me Palafin haters. Waterpon still exists.)

Release the King! RELEASE THE KING!

No kingambit, No Gholdengo, you guys just REALLY wanna bombard the field with hazards i know, but i don't feel like running 7 heavy duty boots per team. Kingambit is an extra no cause that thing is a fucking menace, i refuse to play gun roulette against that thing. Melmetal imo can defiently come back after Tera gets banned, as that is the thing forbiding it from stepping in the land of OU. Palafin was banned rather quick, so I don't know how much of an impact would he have without Tera in the picture, do a 160 atk water type under rain sounds terryfying, regardless of tera.

 

[red fintans]

but i don't feel like running 7 heavy duty boots per team

erm actually you only have 6 pokemon!

serious note, tera ban means long term planning and careful play will be rewarded again instead of just clicking buttons and hoping the enemy doesnt tera out of it, like seriously you cant do things like "oh eliminate their ground type so you can use koko" anymore, you have to somehow scout tera before you try that.. i cant be the only one who dislikes the take seemingly unnecessary risks or lose meta rn

 

[Moisture99]

View attachment 680818No kingambit, No Gholdengo, you guys just REALLY wanna bombard the field with hazards i know, but i don't feel like running 7 heavy duty boots per team. Kingambit is an extra no cause that thing is a fucking menace, i refuse to play gun roulette against that thing. Melmetal imo can defiently come back after Tera gets banned, as that is the thing forbiding it from stepping in the land of OU. Palafin was banned rather quick, so I don't know how much of an impact would he have without Tera in the picture, do a 160 atk water type under rain sounds terryfying, regardless of tera.

Kingambit definitely isn't broken without tera letting it flip MUs against checks like Lando and Zama (which should be unbanned if tera + some previously banned mons are unbanned) and Gholdengo becomes much easier to deal with when Kingambit is here to pursuit it while not being able to tera out of bad matchups such as the aforementioned Kingambit (imo Ghold's ban was pretty debatable in the first place but whatever).

I don't like the sucker punch mindgames argument either since there is sufficient counterplay with stuff like encore, sub and wisp (which can't be tera fired against anymore). More importantly, you would no longer have to deal with tera mindgames so there would now be mons that beat it 100% of the time like Great Tusk.

Palafin probably worth testing. I think stuff like pex, oger and mola will give it a pretty hard time if pala can't tera.

Hoping the survey results allow for a tera suspect. Free the king .