Sd imo is kinda meh. You need trailblaze to put speed shit and realistically only have room for cc and strikes. Maybe aqua jet over trailblaze but then
ain't out speeding shit
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
The moderators of this forum are omarsgarciav, bumboclaat, Sealoo, Ineros, Solaros & Lunaris, and Sulo.
Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
ain't out speeding shit
SD Urshifu-R isn't meant to be a sweeper so the lower speed really isn't the end of the world. SD Shifu is a breaker and in that sense, it's quite potent as outside Slowbro and Toxapex, there really isn't much that can withstand +2 stabs from it which gets complicated when tera is involved. Classic SD+Tera Water is nasty but Tera Steel removes poison from Pex as an answer. It's good, but it's less potent because fat is lower in usage while offense naturally is stronger right now and SD sets don't do as well into those without Trailblaze, which gimps coverage. Also on the subject of coverage, ice punch+stabs+SD is nasty AF.
On the matter of Urshifu-R, I disagree with the notion that it's terrible and think it's actually positioned really well to be one of the best forms of speed control around (well, longterm speed control). Scarf Lele is the other, and Mega Lop/Tapu Koko are great natural speed control that aren't item locked, but Urshifu's scarf U-Turn is a strong automatic progress making weapon as the way Shifu forces switches naturally, it's easy to abuse this with U-Turn and generate momentum. It's made more effective with hazards (rocks/spikes or both) making dancing around it more difficult. It helps a lot that Dark types are at their peak in terms of strength right now and Shifu matches up well into most of them, giving it many opportunities to harass the opponent. It's especially nice when tera water is used to beef up Surging Strikes for late game scenarios. While it's annoying to have to deal with the prominence of Ferrothorn, scarf Shifu is great and its U-Turn is deceptively difficult to play against when used on a well built team. Especially as it's a choice user that can't get protect scouted. It's strong naturally, and it offensively checking very relevant targets such as Mega Lop, Heatran, Gliscor, Lando-T, Mega Diancie (thanks to scarf), MTar, Weavile... it's got great valua all around.
Err... why would you use Surging Strikes when CC is right there to OHKO both?
Obviously Scarf will struggle into fat walls such as Pex or Slowbro, but that's not really the job of scarf sets to begin with. It still is able to U-Turn on them and bring in appropriate teammates to force pressure on the opponent. As for comparing it to other scarfers, Kart's poor stab combo actually limits it even worse against fat than Urshifu does, and it tends to get stuck on moves which offer set up for various pokemon. LandoT... I don't recall scarf being especially common (certainly wasn't good earlier in the generation), and Fini basically doesn't seriously exist in this metagame. Darkrai is great, but the limited defensive utility since mono dark isn't great for that, does hold it back in that regard, while Valiant... specs is great on Koko teas but really only there and scarf is just kinda mid in general because Glowking is legit everywhere and dunks on it all day.
Also regarding defensive teams, fat as a whole is less common in general so it's not that big of a deal.
On the matter of Urshifu-R, I disagree with the notion that it's terrible and think it's actually positioned really well to be one of the best forms of speed control around (well, longterm speed control). Scarf Lele is the other, and Mega Lop/Tapu Koko are great natural speed control that aren't item locked, but Urshifu's scarf U-Turn is a strong automatic progress making weapon as the way Shifu forces switches naturally, it's easy to abuse this with U-Turn and generate momentum. It's made more effective with hazards (rocks/spikes or both) making dancing around it more difficult. It helps a lot that Dark types are at their peak in terms of strength right now and Shifu matches up well into most of them, giving it many opportunities to harass the opponent. It's especially nice when tera water is used to beef up Surging Strikes for late game scenarios. While it's annoying to have to deal with the prominence of Ferrothorn, scarf Shifu is great and its U-Turn is deceptively difficult to play against when used on a well built team. Especially as it's a choice user that can't get protect scouted. It's strong naturally, and it offensively checking very relevant targets such as Mega Lop, Heatran, Gliscor, Lando-T, Mega Diancie (thanks to scarf), MTar, Weavile... it's got great valua all around.
Err... why would you use Surging Strikes when CC is right there to OHKO both?
Obviously Scarf will struggle into fat walls such as Pex or Slowbro, but that's not really the job of scarf sets to begin with. It still is able to U-Turn on them and bring in appropriate teammates to force pressure on the opponent. As for comparing it to other scarfers, Kart's poor stab combo actually limits it even worse against fat than Urshifu does, and it tends to get stuck on moves which offer set up for various pokemon. LandoT... I don't recall scarf being especially common (certainly wasn't good earlier in the generation), and Fini basically doesn't seriously exist in this metagame. Darkrai is great, but the limited defensive utility since mono dark isn't great for that, does hold it back in that regard, while Valiant... specs is great on Koko teas but really only there and scarf is just kinda mid in general because Glowking is legit everywhere and dunks on it all day.
Also regarding defensive teams, fat as a whole is less common in general so it's not that big of a deal.
for some points i agree with, and for some points i disagree with, and i can see both sides of the argument here
- sd shifu is 100% a sweeper lol, it cant break through pex or slowbro for the life of it and i can only see it claiming sweeps with trailblaze as a dangerous wincon alongside tera steel once its fat checks are removed
- sd doenst use tera water, its uses steel to immune toxic from mola, i dont see a reason to use an offensive tera on swords dance especially since you're not gonna break through pex and already decimate a lot of defensive pieces you're targeting(grounds, tran, etc)
- ice punch+stabs+sd is terrible lol, what are you even trying to hit with ice punch thats your stabs already do? mtios/tias are hyperspecific and rest of the dragons get smashed by +2 cc
- EDIT: i recognize that ice punch is probably for dnite, but surging strikes breaks multiscale due to multihit and ss at +2 dnite is not taking that well
adding onto that, ice spinner is better than ice punch unless you’re punching glove which is objectively worse than ppads
if you’re not running tblaze on sd it should be thunder punch
- he said that because you're probably choice locked. and 9/10 that scenario isnt even happening because you're gonna click uturn
- i'd say that urshifu kinda suffers from rillaboom syndrome, because it is quite easy to wall, as there are a plethora of switch ins in the tier(see: ferro pex alo corv lando)
- its very hard for urshifu itself to make progress at all, due to those bulky waters, his point was that urshifu is basically forced to click uturn a majority of the game due to it having so many checks in the tier. see something like darkrai, in which alongside speed control has a strong STAB in which is difficult to resist effectively(AV MIENSHAO??)
- here's what sets other scarfers apart from urshifu
kartana, lando, fini(fraud) have defog, which are able to defog hazards away on their forced switches, especially on something like kartana in which you mentioned has a lot of checks
darkrai and iron valiant can both cripple their checks with trick, as switch ins like gking hate getting tricked a choice scarf
a lot of these scarfers have knock off, which is a great move in general
his point here is that a lot of other scarfers have other utility that can make more progress than urshifu can, and urshifu is limited to click uturn most of the time due to lacking those utility options
- scarf lando is a great set
- true, fini is fake
- mono dark as an argument doesnt make sense here. it's ndou not ndmono and with zama's ban dark types have actually become more threatening, and darkrai can serve some defensive utility with trick and immunity to psychic moves
in conclusion, shifu is mediocre at making progress by itself and is rendered to mostly click uturn, and there are other scarfers with more utility that can make more progress. in its own right, urshifu is a very good scarfer at clicking uturn and has a good stab combo
Last edited:
Those were just the first two that came to mind. There are also other pokemon such as Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele which are better examples.
It seems like you've essentially just regurgitated what I've said in a different way. I said urshifu was a u-turn merchant - meaning that all it does is click u-turn. What you are saying is that it is very good at pivoting in other offensive threats to get opportunities to deal damage. Is that not literally what I just said with just extra steps? I agree with you, it's very good at clicking u-turn, that's what a u-turn merchant is - but the moment you click anything other than u-turn you immediately lose all of your momentum because alomomola or landorus are coming in and just pivoting out and now that all of your momentum is gone urshifu can't come back in until you've regained it.
The entire point of what I'm trying to say is that it's literally forced into clicking u-turn every single time it comes in because it's so easily walled that the moment you click anything else your opponent is able to take advantage of it by setting up hazards with ferrothorn or landorus or regaining momentum by pivoting out themselves. It doesn't matter anywhere near as much that CC OHKOs anything when the moment you click it they just go to the same mon that has been permawalling you the entire game regardless.
There is no way to put it other than that urshifu is a u-turn merchant. It has no chances of breaking anything on it's own. My entire point in the first place was that it's one of the easiest mons to wall in the entire meta, which you've attempted to deflect by essentially saying that doesn't matter because it's only clicking u-turn anyway. Do you not think that maybe the reason it's only clicking u-turn is because it's literally unable to kill anything that isn't already frail and also being hit super effectively?
It HEAVILY relies on it's teammates since it doesn't do anything other than u-turn itself - which is fine - but assuming that we're analyzing the mon on it's own here it really doesn't do anything without heavy breaking support. Sure, urshifu is strong when on a good team but using that logic isn't every mon? Most other good teams don't immediately fall apart the moment the urshifu clicks surging strikes instead of u-turn or vice versa either. Pivoting as a mechanic is obviously strong but we're rating the mon here not the archetype of a pivot and urshifu really doesn't do anything special other than be slightly more offensive than other pivots such as Mega Lopunny or Tapu Koko.
A couple simple words;
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Imo waterpon is the biggest threat to
and there's the benefit of clicking surging strikes(not into waterpon if I wasn't clear) and still dealing decent damage. It also plays around 
imo due to it being forced to tera grass which..252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
..kinda fucks it up abit. Sure it could toxic/magma storm you but
still 2hkos you. Also the benefit of over 
or 
is that it has surging strikes to hit hard and also unseen fist exists which was what pushed 
over the edge iirc
A couple simple words;
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Imo waterpon is the biggest threat to
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
..kinda fucks it up abit. Sure it could toxic/magma storm you but
I will jump in and say that my issue with urshifu is just how much you get destroyed by rocky helm and other contact punishment. Rocky ferro, chomp, corvik, skarm, static zapdos, even flame body volcarona and moltres, you click surging strikes into them and they may get a huge advantage (probably not the flame body ones). Meanwhile using lele and clicking psychic does more damage, no contact stuff, brings terrain utility and the worst thing that can happen is getting pursuit trapped, while you are neutral to pursuit and can live it once (also moonblast exists). On top of that, it brings terrain utility and amazing coverage moves at basically the same speed tier. Pretty much every non HO team has a rocky helm while not every team has a dark type. And even when a dark type is present, there is good counterplay. While in the case of urshifu, many matchups feel like clicking surging strikes will probably kill you, and even cc/uturn doesnt feel amazing.
So I feel like rain urshifu has some reasoning. With how double edged surging strikes can be, might as well nuke something even if it backfires
Not sure if this was a mistake or not but it's pretty interesting that you've altered the waterpon calcA couple simple words;
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Imo waterpon is the biggest threat to
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
..kinda fucks it up abit. Sure it could toxic/magma storm you but
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is what it SHOULD look like. Not sure why you're trying to use fake calcs in an argument, doesn't exactly help your point.
And the heatran matchup is completely irrelevant, nobody is using heatran as a check to urshifu anyway.
I don’t really get what you’re saying, the whole point of scarf pokemon is to outspeed and either revenge kill, support with U-turn, or deal massive damage to Pokémon using the speed that Scarf provides, and I say that Urshifu-R does the former 2 so good that it dosen’t need to do the 3rd one that good and even then, it does good at it. Plus, the whole point of Surging Strikes is due to it’s guaranteed critical hits and Unseen Fist allows it to ignore defensive boosts, which allows it to revenge kill through defensive boosts.
Also, Ferrothorn dies to close combat, Landorus-T dies to Ice spinner, a common coverage move, and leftover variants get hurt hard by Surging Strikes anyway, Gliscor dies to Ice Spinner and Surging strikes and can’t scout due to unseen fist, and you just U-turn on Alomomola. I do admit that it’s somewhat prediction reliant, but when you get the predictions right, it’s an amazing momentum gainer and threat.
You can't be relying on clicking the correct move every single turn for a pokemon to be good. All it takes is accidentally clicking surging strikes instead of CC as they go into their rocky helmet ferrothorn for you to immediately take 75% of your health and potentially lose the game because of it. Not to mention things like CC into ferrothorn don't even kill and it's not unrealistic to be able to wish it back to full or have it just heal itself with leech seed
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As for the other calcs you mentioned:
-1 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 184-220 (48.1 - 57.5%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gliscor: 292-344 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Urshifu absolutely DOES in fact need to be good at dealing damage and revenging. Other similar pokemon such as specs koko, scarf lele or mega lopunny are significantly better at revenging than something like urshifu simply because urshifu struggles to kill anything that it needs to
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele on a critical hit: 237-282 (84.3 - 100.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko on a critical hit: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
None of these are particularly bulky yet urshifu still struggles to get the kill on them. The fact that even with rocks up it's a roll to kill something like Tapu Lele with 70/75 defenses shows this pretty well. Urshifu just doesn't deal enough damage to fulfill the role that it's literally designed specifically for, and while yeah sure in theory it can kill everything if you click the right move, each of it's individual moves can be very easily exploited by it's respective counter because it's choice locked. Not to mention that it becomes an absolute liability in the face of waterpon as clicking surging strikes heals it and allows it to get to +2 for free. On top of this there are multiple notoriously difficult to kill walls that it has which literally permawall it no matter what it clicks in toxapex and alomomola. In these extremely common matchups it's literally forced to always click u-turn no matter what as the moment you click anything else either toxic spikes are going up or your opponent is gaining momentum from flip turn. These walls are also generally pretty difficult to take down unless you have some significant breaking power due to them having regenerator.
Other pivots/revengers don't have these issues as things like heatran or iron crown for tapu lele can be worn down with hazards, tapu koko has hidden power ice to deal with grounds, and mega lopunny isn't choice locked.
As for being able to revenge things with defensive boosts due to surging strike crits, not only is that not really a very common situation with zamazenta gone but it literally loses to the only things that are realistically boosting their defense nowadays anyway in iron crown, curse dragonite and corviknight (most of these sets are frauds anyway).
Urshifu just becomes an absolute nothing burger of a mon the moment the opponents team has anything that isn't 2hko'd by surging strikes or CC. At least pokemon with similar issues like rillaboom actually provide utility in knock off and grassy terrain and can actually overwhelm their checks if needed.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 219-258 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
What's the point in having a mon on your team if all it does is click u-turn over and over with no endgame goal in mind?
A couple simple words;
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Imo waterpon is the biggest threat to
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Grass Heatran: 186-220 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
..kinda fucks it up abit. Sure it could toxic/magma storm you but
okay im gonna be completely honest, i don't think you know what you're talking about
in an earlier comment its already pointed out that is a fake calc
waterpon is hardly the biggest threat to shifu, as uturn significantly chunks it and cc does a ton
the biggest threat to shifu is definitely pex, unless you're thunder punch you never beat it 1v1
heatran is never staying in on shifu anyway, i'm not even sure what your point is here. more likely they switch out than tera grass and still get 2khod
surging strikes is a nice stab option but it has a ton of resists, mlop has the benefit of not being choice locked and has natural perfect coverage, tapu koko activates terrain
unseen fist does not matter in this metagame. it makes a huge impact on doubles/vgc where protect is an essential core to the metagame, but its not the same case here, as almost no mons in NDOU run protect except for alo
i cant tell what sprite that is, but i'm gonna assume thats urshifu dark which was absolutely not banned because of unseen fist
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Dark Urshifu-Single Strike Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 312-368 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it was banned because of the fact that absolutely nothing could switch into banded wicked blow
tapu lele and urshifu are both speed control, although different teams prefer different mons, some teams like urshifu as their speed control better. both scarf lele and shifu r easily checked by gking crown hsam mtar weav and for the latter has been already mentioned
i completely agree with shifu's 3 hit contact problem, however that is still not a reason to use urshifu on rain. the main point here is that there are so many better rain breakers that you can use other than urshifu. mons like barraskewda hold so much more value due to having more offensive power alongside having the highest speed in the tier in rain
ss is a good move in itself, and close combat inherently is strong as a 120 BP stab move, and uturn generates momentum. nothing wrong with those
yes, no duh a speed control mon is able to revenge kill with its 120 BP stab moves, thats what they're supposed to do
the issue here is that urshifu is not going to do a ton of damage, it has so many checks in the tier that its only going to be clicking uturn, and whiole that holds value, if thats all the mon is going to do early/mid game it can be overseen for other options with more utility
you cant just use the fact that urshifu's other move is able to pick up the ko on a check i mentioned with a mon thats choice locked, especially when predicting wrong with that move could result in 3 hits worth of iron barbs chip, which is not good at all, which is why shifu prefers to just click uturn... kinda all it does
i cant even say much about what you said after that because its just what i said earlier. if you just predict incorrectly on any of those checks, you instantly lose all your momentum and they gain a ton through their own uturn or setting hazards
Last edited:
Damn I must've interpreted it wrongly. I wasnt using a fake calc
I'm new so idk but if surging strikes is so hated; why not use liquidation?(Jk) But srsly,
can't scout due to unseen fistWdym is that not what a scarf Mon is supposed to do? U-turn, chip, maybe pick up a easy ko..
Damn I must've interpreted it wrongly. I wasnt using a fake calc
I'm new so idk but if surging strikes is so hated; why not use liquidation?(Jk) But srsly,
Wdym is that not what a scarf Mon is supposed to do? U-turn, chip, maybe pick up a easy ko..
surging strikes is a strong move, and theres nothing wrong with it, but in the current tier we're in its struggling to break through anything due to how many water resists there are
the mu against gliscor is in shifu's favor anyway, and protect gliscor is mid at best; roost is better
yea, my point is that its not chipping anything when all its checks can punish its contact moves alongside having reliable recovery in roost or regenerator(not as if uturn on a corv is chipping it at all...)
I understand that it struggles to break through common answers to choiced mons. As a reverse point(?), it provides a smidgen of offensive pressure vs common mons like
, , and maybe 
if it terad steel earlier in the game
I understand that it struggles to break through common answers to choiced mons. As a reverse point(?), it provides a smidgen of offensive pressure vs common mons like
well, flareon offers offensive pressure versus ferrothorn and scizor, but does that make it good?
no, flareon is still deadweight into alo and lando when they inevitably switch in and can't make significant progress
thats kinda urshifu's problem in a nutshell but shifu is miles above flareon
The issue imo I'm seeing here is
being a very good speed control with surging strikes, cc and u turn providing momentum and having coverage with poison jab and ice spinner but it's checks and answers as well as being a little underwhelming causes it to be walled by lliterally everything in the tier. Also common mons that look like there weak to actually can wall it like 
I think the discussion thus far is a bit misguided - Choice Scarf Urshifu-RS won't be worth how high-tiered it is in a vacuum if you consider it alone against the rest of the metagame. It is a potent cleaner once its checks have been weakened, much like many other Choice Scarf users in this metagame, but where it really shines is in the offensive pressure it creates that it can exploit with U-turn. The reason it finds usage is because not only can it easily clean with its pretty decent Speed tier and such, but that it can also bait in and pressure checks to it like the mentioned Alomomola and Toxapex with a timely U-turn into a teammate.
Many special breakers such as Raging Bolt, Choice Specs Tapu Lele, Darkrai, and the like really appreciate the momentum Urshifu-RS generates, since they are somewhat frail in the grand context of things as well as incredibly strong once they hit the field. These three like U-turn as a result. It’s not a fair or unique argument that Urshifu-RS is overrated because it gets walled by prevalent parts of the meta - so does probably every other scarfer - or that it is too prediction-reliant or misprediction-punishing - mons is a game of prediction and you should be punished for messing up a move.
Many special breakers such as Raging Bolt, Choice Specs Tapu Lele, Darkrai, and the like really appreciate the momentum Urshifu-RS generates, since they are somewhat frail in the grand context of things as well as incredibly strong once they hit the field. These three like U-turn as a result. It’s not a fair or unique argument that Urshifu-RS is overrated because it gets walled by prevalent parts of the meta - so does probably every other scarfer - or that it is too prediction-reliant or misprediction-punishing - mons is a game of prediction and you should be punished for messing up a move.
I do agree with you that urshifu does provide extreme value in it's pivoting capabilities, my issue is just that I don't think it brings much to the table outside of that. Other pokemon such as tapu koko provide a very similar role to urshifu while being able to be a nuke with specs, having the option to run boots or a Z move as well as even defog if you're really desperate. Urshifu has significantly more checks in the meta than the average pokemon since things such as waterpon, raging bolt, toxapex, alomomola etc all able to exploit it once it's decided to lock into anything other than u-turn. I get your point in saying that it's strong once it's checks are weakened but that can be significantly easier said than done when the defensive checks that it has have regenerator and the offensive ones that it freely allows in can at times be unwallable if allowed to setup. On the teams that I've used urshifu on it just feels like all it does is come in just to click u-turn and immediately leave - and whenever I click anything else it's quickly exploited.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2162478920 - I decided to use an urshifu sample team to see if I could get a better understanding of the full picture and while I didn't play amazing here (first game on this morning don't flame me) there wasn't really much I could do here since a large part of the team's offensive pressure came down to urshifu which was shut down by corviknight and waterpon. You can see on turn 5 that I was forced into a tricky situation as to revenge the great tusk I would need to click surging strikes, however if I did (even if they stayed in and it killed) then I would give waterpon a free SD and I would lose (partly because urshifu wouldn't be unable to come in after and revenge since it deals no damage). This is exactly my point wherein the moment that urshifu is in a position where it needs to click anything outside of u-turn it becomes exploitable.
It isn't realistic to be in a favourable position the entire game for urshifu to thrive. You need to be covering for your bad matchups when you teambuild - not making your already good ones better. The situation where urshifu is able to be spamming u-turn and generating offensive pressure is already an advantage state where you would be doing just as well with urshifu out of the picture. It feels like all urshifu is doing is making those already advantageous positions even better when it could be making some terrible matchups easier to work around or providing utility elsewhere.
I understand that it does provide a role unique to most other pivots in the meta in that it is much faster than a mega lopunny or tapu koko but I'm not sure that this is enough to justify how exploitable and weak it is compared to other pivots in the tier.
Yeah, that's pretty much how being a fast pivot goes...? You bait the switch and gain momentum from U-turn, sometimes cleaning because your checks were chipped and there's a wincon for your Scarfer.
The metagaming comes down to predicting that U-turn, or, more generally, predicting a prediction.
Well this is true for most any choice user, not just Urshifu. That's the downside of the item. Something like Rillaboom or Kartana are far worse in this regard about being exploited for locking into the wrong move in some way or another (though at least Kart is threatening still). Hell even Scarf LandoT can be exploited if it ends up clicking EQ into a resist or immunity. That's just part of the game. For Shifu, even U-Turning on something like Raging Bolt as it comes in is huge, because you are better positioned around it (and in the case of Booster sets, effectively force it to burn the Booster as you pivot into a check like Ferrothorn). Waterpon has to be extremely careful actually pivoting into Urshifu since U-Turn claims over half its health while CC is ruining it effectively. Toxapex and Mola meanwhile are free U-Turns into threatening breakers. Especially made potent through hazard backup.
Regarding the replay, outside the utter weirdness of that turn 1 Hamurott staying in on Shifu and clicking knock over edge, you could've gone into Ferrothorn when Tusk was in and then pivoted out to Tornadus-T, since most Tusk aren't commonly running CC (and in hindsight, definitely wasn't since Icium Z is typically BU which means Spin+EQ/Headlong+Ice). But that's not really my point. What I mean to say is, using pivots like Shifu is all about reading the opponent and making calls based on the context. There's never a perfect answer since your opponent can make the wildest of plays (whether justified or completely out of left field), but looking at the current context and determining whether you should click X or Y. Which call is likely to lead to the best outcome? Look at what your opponent has in, what they've got in the back. Pivoting teammates like Shifu are some of the strongest offensive support for allies around, because they enable them through strong momentum which is why clicking U-Turn more often than not.
Moyashi I think ppl hate mainly cos while it's a decent speed control pivot, it kinda is a little force to click u turn and doesn't do much dmg to a lot of stuff(I think? I don't play so idk) anyways imo it's a perfectly ok mon
mainly cos while it's a decent speed control pivot, it kinda is a little force to click u turn and doesn't do much dmg to a lot of stuff(I think? I don't play so idk) anyways imo it's a perfectly ok mon
clicking u turn is what makes shifu great.Moyashi I think ppl hate
shifu is so good offensively that it forces pivots, which it can capitalize off of u turn. oftentimes when i see people talking about scarf shifu being bad it's because they're running a team that can't effectively punish passive pokemon like toxapex with either offensive threats like raging bolt, tapu lele or hazard setters like ferrothorn and heatran, making it thud into pex. I think shifu is the best scarfer in the tier, since it getting the jump on other common scarfers like tapu lele and landorus-therian makes it a very scary cleaner, especially with tera water
252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not trying to stir up the thread but yea sort of this thing is ig decent since it sorta threatens out
and clicking cc vs walls most of the time would do big damage and clicking u turn generates much needed momentum. imo though surging strikes is a dilemma cos you get contact punished thrice as fast but running liquidation means forgoing you strongest water move
its still fine since theres only a few things that can really run adverse contact items and actually switch in to a shifu ss, but all of those things are pretty passive (mola, pex, sortof not really ferro) and can get pretty easily abused by teammates on the switch with uturn252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Ferrothorn: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
not trying to stir up the thread but yea sort of this thing is ig decent since it sorta threatens out
oh damn ty
on a side not imo banded
is actually quite good; especially after tera(optional) getting perm speed boosts with embody aspect. +1 speed from tera and an effective +1 atk from band is kinda broken. only issue i ran into is not being able to break through 
but i think a and core could be kinda cool to generate a shit ton of momentum with voltturnEdit: I found out
is incredibly good with band and embody aspect giving perm speed but is there much of a reason to use it over 
? I mean; a 20% boost tp your damage for free is insane and a secondary type for damage+embody aspect giving perm spdef in case you revenge kill special attacker like 
, 
and maybe specs
Last edited:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-viability-rankings.3714511/post-10196001
New VR update, full list of changes here ^^
New VR update, full list of changes here ^^