Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

I see nobody trying to point out what I am saying is wrong but keep telling me I can not succeed or I am a stupid stubborn blockhead.
I've already said I can stand waiting for a whole year,but I can not stand taking no actions and telling no truth.
You can call for the Third sus and I can call for the fourth,although I should wait for a whole year.
The pro ban part of the community waited for like 2 years to have tera banned, you gotta look at that too.Its not like someone randomly said on this thread "let's sus tera" and the council did so just because one person said. With a generational mechanic like tera, there had to be a big sentiment for it to get sussed 3 times. I wonder if you got reqs in any of the suspect, especially the third one.If you did not, it makes you look even worse. You have been already told by a lot of people that going back and forth on this isnt gonna resolve anything, so what's the point?
 
You can think that Tera should be unbanned but honesty it’s a worthless endeavor. Unless the entire community at large is rioting about it, no one wants to look at Tera again and there’s no precedent for tiering something for a fourth time compared to three, opening another can of worms. No one is really going to consider it, I personally will vehemently oppose it if it’s brought up in council discussion because it is just not the play. A year passing will not make people encouraged to free it, if anything they’d want things to be the same because this tier has seen exponential improvement without Tera! Anyone can talk about what they want but at the end of the day, this is a useless crusade realistically and while you can try later it will not be successful. Hopefully this can be the final answer on this topic, sorry you don’t like the tier but I think you might have to accept that it’s just not the way you want it to be.

Tl;dr It’s pointless based on how people are experiencing the metagame right now, everyone highly discourages it here and I outright refuse to entertain it if Tera is brought up again
AGAIN.
I can stand waiting but I need answer to my questions(ESPECIALLY why we are not setting more options like SVOU).
I can stand to sus it a year later but I can not stand no more sus.You already do it 3 times then I can do it the fourth time.
It's already crazy to do it 3 times(with NO OPTIONS other than BAN).
 
AGAIN.
I can stand waiting but I need answer to my questions(ESPECIALLY why we are not setting more options like SVOU).
I can stand to sus it a year later but I can not stand no more sus.You already do it 3 times then I can do it the fourth time.
It's already crazy to do it 3 times(with NO OPTIONS other than BAN).

Just read the arguments in this thread rather than clogging up this thread with your ramblings.
 

Just read the arguments in this thread rather than clogging up this thread with your ramblings.
already read,posted a great amount opinions on my first post under this disgussion with few useful replies.
 
Maybe it’s just cause I’m playing draft now and Tera preview is a thing there.
Pull up a non-draft metagame and it might hold some water because to my knowledge this has never seriously been a thing.

Most of things they said are just the things I'v proved we should rejudge(such as they keep telling me Tera caused a lot of bans with no more proof other than things I've just talked about).
Whole lot of explanations here - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-test-post-dlc2-new-suspect-process.3754393/

Tell me will it be possible to re-sus it when the gap time is long enough,and clear my questions.
I can stand to sus it a year later but I can not stand no more sus.You already do it 3 times then I can do it the fourth time.
It's already crazy to do it 3 times(with NO OPTIONS other than BAN).
Hidin is saying its a worthless endeavor because it lacks community support, you seem to be misunderstanding how suspect tests are triggered to begin with because Tera isn't simply going to be given a free suspect test because it got suspected thrice before. You need a large part of the community to seriously support this action before it starts otherwise what is the point of testing something that is going to remain banned. I said it could be reconsidered in a year at minimum, pending it has strong community support. In terms of why SV OU had more options in their Tera suspect, it was largely irrelevant due to most of the community voting to keep it legal in full and it only really served to divide people who disliked Tera in its current state. This is why NatDex targeted the mechanic in full. We did it three times because it very strong community support each time. Get the same support in a year and you'll have a foundation to stand on.

So many of these posts feel like blatant ragebait or seriously misleading -> five more posts of people taking the bait and it's really infuriating to see happen across several pages. ND Mods don't want to have to step in here if we don't have to but the quality of posting in general has been beyond terrible lately. People are entitled to have "poor" takes (me personally I want Kingambit banned and Magnezone to have more respect here for example), but this insistence to not let up on every argument is absurd. The goal of a discussion is to bring something to light, not to win. Roaring Moon getting unbanned from the metagame is bad to me sure but the tier isn't ruined because of it's presence. People have to know this deep down.

Similarly I truly hope that we don't have an unban conversation until the next survey because Roaring Moon was already a pretty major ask and it seems that Dragapult is incredibly polarizing in the tier right now. There is no sensible unban that is going to make it less polarizing so one is just kicking the can down the road instead of focusing on the present issue. Shitposting about how Chi-Yu and Palafin are balanced is a terrible take at best and borderline misinformation at worst.

Everytime I hear about this thread it's always in a negative light, please do better @regulars.

I don't want to entertain why Tera would be good or bad for the tier right now but the arguments used to indicate that the post-tera metagame is worse are incredibly opinionated and not grounded in reality. Not sure if there is some misinterpretation here but aspects such as Shedinja and Regieleki being legal again, Stall & HO being worse, this tier being closer to SV OU now, they are not considered bad things to most of the community. As hidin said it would be a really poor look to retest something after only 3 months of its removal, I would take it a step further and call it tier suicide from an administrative pov. After a year maybe we could discuss Tera again like we did with past tests but a retest in such a short amount of time passed is kneejerk and asinine.

Clauses such as Tera Preview or "Z-moves for SM legal mons only" are non-starters I'm just gonna say that flat out. If something were to happen then the mechanic as a whole is targeted.
Drop this conversation or I will
 
So, Roaring Moon is back in National Dex OU again, which it's certainly staying there. But here I am, discussing a fellow dragon that MIGHT wanna say goodbye to the NDOU tier. Can you guess who that dragon was? I'm certainly talking.... about our FAVOURITE jet Pókemon...

:Dragapult: Dragapult :Dragapult:

dab479331cca130ce4a0f82f86dc3f00.jpg

Here I am to discuss about its influence in the tier, as well writing off some reasons why it should OR shoouldn't be banned! In my opinion, Dragapult in the National Dex OU tier feels like a flip coin: I don't mind it being present in the tier or I wouldn't mind it leaving the tier via its (future) ban.

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◆ Influence:
Dragapult's second chance appers to have quite the controvercy while also being somewhat "balanced". It has places itself as the "Numero Uno!" Ghost behind Gholdengo. Most of the reasons are its unimmaginable speed of 142, great attack of 120 while also having access to Z-Crystals, increasing its oppensive capabilities. It has also great sets like Sash, Pivot and most importantly and controversaly the D-Dance set, which made Dragapult very annoying to fight against in the tier. Ironically enough, it did not use Teratslization THAT often, when it was allowed. The main reason it got the boot was because the D-Dance set with Ghostium-Z, ripping almost any Pókemon apart along with the ban of its worst enemy, Kingambit. But why is it here? Well, Kingambit is back again as a solid check against Dragapult while the tier has other walls that set Dragapult some prblems like Ferrothorn or Terapagos. But what does Dragapult bring to the table. It is the only Pókemon able to outspeed Zamzenta (and almost any physical or special attacker), crippling it with Will-O-Wisp/Thunder Wave, not being overly devastating and faster then Gholdengo. However it seems its old tricks have infuriated the players of NDOU once again, begging for Dragapult to be re-suspected. Which leads to my next points.....

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◆ Why SHOULDN'T Dragapult be banned? (:Dragapult:)
While Dragapult has the power and sweeping potential with Dragon Dance, Dragon Darts and Ghostium Z (Phantom Force), the NDOU tier presents some challenges for this Pókemon, mainly in the form of Kingambit, its general counter. While not as dominating as it was BEFORE the ban of Terastalization, it still has an enormous succes in National Dex OU, being used very often than not. While Dragapulzt CAN cripple it with Will-O-Wisp, Kingambit can still do huge damage to it, due to Dragaput being a Drahgon AND Ghost type Pókemon, having a weaknesses to Dark. Which leads us to our next argument, Pursuit. After the 7. Generation, Pursuit unfortunately didn't make the cut in the future generations, HOWEVER this is National Dex, even the moves left out from the future generation, can STILL be used. Therefore being bad news for Ghost types, including Dragapult. Dark types wit Pursuit are almost evrerywhere to be seen: Tyranitar-Mega and Kingambit. These two not only are very viable in this tier, but also have STAB Pursuit, which Pult not only fears, but can't even escape from it via U-Turn, since Pursuit's power is DOUBLE if the opponent's Pókemon DARES to switch out. Even if Dragapult burns them, Pursuit will outright kill it anyways. Even without the Dark type, there are Pókemon that can be a nitpick for Dragapult. For example? (Booster Energy) Iron Valiant, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Melmetal, Lopunny-Mega, Gliscor, Swift Swimmers and many more. Not to mention it is weak to hazards like Stealth Rock and (Toxic) Spikes., since it has (barely) never seen having Heavy-Duty Boots. Plus, outside of Lando-T, there are walls that can manage Dragapult: Terapagos, Tyranitar-Mega, Ferrothorn and maybe more

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◆ Why SHOULD Dragapult be banned? (:Dragapult: )
Dragapult has a great 120 Attack and an Incredible 142 Speed, which are boosted by Dragon Dance. It has STAB Dragon Darts and Phantom Force. On paper, Phantom Force isn't that threatening due to it working on the (second)next round, however with Ghostium Z, Phantom Force becomes an almost unwallable Never-ending Nightmare, packing colossal power, almost destroying the opponent. At 1+ boosted Attack, Dragapult can do a huge chunk of damage to the opponents, if not entirely kill them. Not to mention at +1 Speed, it becomes impossible to outspeed it. Few Pókemon can take a +1 Never-ending Nightmare, even counting damage from either Hazards or Statuses. It also has Clear Body to avoid any stat drops (for example Intimidate from Landorus-Therian, Sticky Web, etc.), making it very dangerous and hard to stop. For a fourth move it has either Will-O-Wisp or Substitute: Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers (or any Pókemon in that matter) and Substitute to have a "shield" or scapegoat to set-up and win the game. Plus it's the fastest Pókemon in Nat. Dex OU (for now), meaning it is always going to be a pain for others with Z-Crystals and Will-O-Wisp.

:Dragapult:
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:Dragapult:
◆ Afterthoughts:
At the end of the day, Dragapult's stay in the National Dex OU tier is "controversial to say the east, however (for me at least) it could be countered, besides it is a fun, interesting and possibly even balanced addition to the tier. We'll see if the Dragapult suspect will drop and I'll make my ideas clear, because I am in a dilemma to choose to either support the BAN or DO NOT BAN side.

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:Zamazenta:
Even if the ban of Dragapult IS going to happen, there are still counters makimng Zamazenta manageable like Gholdengo, Slowbro, Moltres and Zapdos and so on. I don't think it'll be a problem. Well, this is my opinion on THAT case, so....

Overall these are my thoughts on Dragapult! What do YOU think? should it be banned or does it deserve to stay here?

:Zamazenta: Thanks for reading! Take care of yourselves! :Zamazenta:
 
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People keep bringing up Slowbro, but I’m just not a big fan. Between the many darks/ghosts and general lack of speed, I just keep wanting to run mola instead.

However, maybe I’m not up to date on its post tera sets, I’ve tried boots+double psychic moves as well as colbur body press, but I feel like I’m doomed to eat knock off into getting blasted by *insert relevant special threat* or :kingambit:, so recommendations/insight on how I should be using it would be nice
 
Pull up a non-draft metagame and it might hold some water because to my knowledge this has never seriously been a thing.


Whole lot of explanations here - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-test-post-dlc2-new-suspect-process.3754393/




Hidin is saying its a worthless endeavor because it lacks community support, you seem to be misunderstanding how suspect tests are triggered to begin with because Tera isn't simply going to be given a free suspect test because it got suspected thrice before. You need a large part of the community to seriously support this action before it starts otherwise what is the point of testing something that is going to remain banned. I said it could be reconsidered in a year at minimum, pending it has strong community support. In terms of why SV OU had more options in their Tera suspect, it was largely irrelevant due to most of the community voting to keep it legal in full and it only really served to divide people who disliked Tera in its current state. This is why NatDex targeted the mechanic in full. We did it three times because it very strong community support each time. Get the same support in a year and you'll have a foundation to stand on.


Drop this conversation or I will
I understand.

I've said I can stop asking for Tera re-suspect until one year later but I will keep seeking for answers of my questions(about if the death of Tera make nd better.) because it's just legal discussion.

And,when a year DID pass,how can I prove I do have a large part of the community to seriously support this action?
 
I understand.

I've said I can stop asking for Tera re-suspect until one year later but I will keep seeking for answers of my questions(about if the death of Tera make nd better.) because it's just legal discussion.

And,when a year DID pass,how can I prove I do have a large part of the community to seriously support this action?
u wouldnt have to prove anything as the part of the community would have to be large enough where itd be evident that such action had support
 
Pull up a non-draft metagame and it might hold some water because to my knowledge this has never seriously been a thing.
VGC allows Tera Preview. It is a thing. But I will drop the conversation from this point onward.

As for Dragapult, one the one hand, it can be very overwhelming as a Z crystal user (which it shouldn't have access to as a Gen 8 Pokemon) which means it has a no drawback nuke attack. And it's very fast even for OU standards which is quite obnoxious. However, it is still Pursuit weak and has to run Will o Wisp just to not get shut down by Kingambit a lot of the time. And Mega Tyranitar for that matter. I'm very glad Pursuit exists since otherwise this thing is stupid as fuck.

While I could live without Dragapult because Kingambit is so good I do understand why people dislike it. Though most can probably agree that if Dragapult couldn't hold a Z crystal it wouldn't be nearly as obnoxious, being required to run boots Wisp/Hex sets, Specs sets or Dragon Dance without an alternative to Phantom Force. Definitely strong Pokemon regardless and it makes sense we are talking about it now. Especially now that it competes with Roaring Moon for the role of a fast Dragon type attacker.

Wigglytuff believers unite to wall this monster ghost.
 
Tera ban is fine, originally hated it but meta is enjoyable and more rewarding to actually good teams, and that seems to be the general consensus amongst players rn, so a sus seems most likely to be fully off the table

Anyway imma drop some thoughts:

The (good) Freed guys:

:sv/dragapult:

As previously stated, Dragapult has proven itself to be probably the most defining mon in the tier, with Dragon Dance Z sets often being v hard to deal with. Also has other options such as will-o-wisp pivot sets and specs (which is prob the worst set rn). As for whether its bannable there are obviously arguments on both sides, but i personally lean towards keeping it in the tier. It loses to prominent Dark types such as Mtar and Gambit, as well as all sets apart from dragon dance sets already at +1 being vunerable to scarf lele and Booster Speed Ival. It also struggles to break pokemon such as ferrothorn who threaten it with twave and terapagos who can hit it with ice beam. Obviously it has options such as sub in order to let it set up more dances, but it rly doesnt like dropping wisp which allows it to make taking on zamazenta, gambit and ttar easier, or at least cripple them.

Status sets are very useful tools due to its ability to cripple certain mons to avoid them getting out of hand, as well as helping teammates break more easily by burning or paralyzing their checks. Hex when partnered with status can become very annoying, but this set is far from broken. Specs is cheeks ngl.

Obv pult is not a bad mon, Ghost Z at +1 is able to pick up KOs on mons like tusk, and dragon darts at +1 does big damage to most of the tier, as well as being able to break sashes, substitutes and dragonites multiscale, but i feel like it has sufficient defensive counterplay to not be broken.

:sv/kingambit:

Kingambit has cemented itself as a top tier mon with swords dance threats being an amazing late game threat with its swords dance sets, and AV sets providing an amazing stopgap and pursuit user. Swords dance sets have to decide between Black glasses, Air balloon and leftovers, my personal favourite being black glasses due to its ability to make kingambit even more potent late game. Low kick and iron head are both scary options, with low kick breaking other steels (most notably other gambits) and iron head being good into faries like clefable, as well as doing good damage to switch ins such as great tusk. AV sets provide answers to Dragapult and Gholdengo, being able to pursuit them back. Both sets can hit hard even without swords dance set up due to gambits high base attack and strong stab in knock, making them often hard to switch into
unless ur tusk or zama.

I personally dont fw lefties > AV, i feel it becomes a less reliable answer to a lot of threats in exchange for not that much recovery in return.

:sv/gholdengo:

Incredible defensive piece being able to take on common fairies such as tapu lele and iron valiant well, as well as being an amazing wall breaker with its nasty plot Z sets. Ghost Z, Fight Z and even Steel Z are all rly cool and allow it to overwhelm defensive structures v well. It also has Twave hex sets which allow it to cripple a lot of its common switchins and threaten them via a powerful Never ending nightmare. I rly like this dude on BO rn, and it also enables hazard stack to thrive, which is fun. I love this dude. There are also alternative options such as leftovers and air balloon which both have there merit, Balloon being rly good on HO. shame HO is ass fish rn :( Speaking of ass this dude also fucks over another ass archetype rn, stall.

:SV/Zamazenta:

The dawg is back. IDBP sets are threatening wincons as always, and 4a boots sets are also good, but i kinda feel like this dude isnt rly on par with the other freed guys ive just mentioned. IDBP sets find themselves walled by common defensive mons mons such as Toxapex, Slowbro, Zapdos and Moltres (unless its stone edge), as do 4a sets, who also lose to tusk. Definitely not saying this is bad, i personally rly like 4a boots sets and i feel howl Z sets look kinda cool and underexplored, but it doesnt feel as good as ghold pult or zama. Afterthought but im not a huge fan of band sets, zama doesnt rly like being stuck into 1 move and it feels too prediction reliant. Drop to A- :psysad:

Guys i think are underrated rn:

:sv/magnezone:

Feel this guy has got a lot better since the introduction of gambit and melm, idbp sets allow it to beat tons of steels comfortably. Also still does what its always done in trapping steel birds and ferros, but just got more good mons to trap. Feel like its a p positive meta for mag rn. It also has cool options in magnet rise to stop it from losing to slow grounds or mons with ground coverage. Specs is also still an option, but idt its as good as idbp as it doesnt rly beat gambit or melm. Its also workable defensively, being able to switch in on threats such as tapu koko and lele quite comfortably.

:sv/torkoal: :sv/venusaur:

With moon being freed, i feel full sun becomes infinitely more viable, with these 2 benefitting a lot from mr moon dropping. Moon appreciates torkoals ability to set sun for 8 turns as opposed to 5, as well as its ability to remove stealth rocks via rapid spin, as well as set them itself. It also can threaten burns with lava plume, altho its main niche is setting sun for longer. Venusaur is great on full sun as well, due to its speed being boosted by chlorophyll and ability to get out of hand with a combination of growth and its good movepool. Obv these dudes arnt amazing, but they get significantly better with moon being freed.

MOON IS FREED

:sv/roaring-moon:

Moon has been freed, and it seems to be p balanced on first impressions. Dragon dance Z sets, much like dragapult are very strong and have the ability to win games with ease if played right, but it has counterplay in Clefable, Booster speed Iron Valiant, Corviknight and more. Band sets are also very strong, being able to break through a lot of teams as well as gain momentum easily via u-turn, but run into similar problems. Moon also provides a ghost and dark resist as well as great natural bulk, meaning it can perform as a switchin to common threats such as gholdengo and kingambit a few times.

I have seen some cool sets being used on ladder, including a groundium z set which was act aight and a jaw lock set, which was ass but made me laugh so yk.

ALSO MAKES FULL SUN GOOD TAP INTO Chilli Dewd STOCKS FR

Anyway what r some mons/ fun sets we think r underrated rn?

Ignore my grammar and general lack of coherency i am running on 3 hours sleep and am hungover :p
 
Anyway what r some mons/ fun sets we think r underrated rn?
Given the rise of Pecharunt + Ting Lu cores in SV Ou, I figured I’d try them out in Nat Dex on a hazard stack team. They definitely work well but do need a Lele and Zard-Y answer. I’ve been using this team.

https://pokepast.es/e19520acb03f074c
I’m a chronic team stealer and not very good at team building so I’ve been building to get better so feedback is more than welcome.

Pecharunt feels really good in the current meta as it can take super effective hits rather well. And Ting Lu is Ting Lu. The core as a whole would probably work better in Nat Dex Uu(which I might try it in). Definitely enjoy playing it tho.
 
I understand.

I've said I can stop asking for Tera re-suspect until one year later but I will keep seeking for answers of my questions(about if the death of Tera make nd better.) because it's just legal discussion.

And,when a year DID pass,how can I prove I do have a large part of the community to seriously support this action?
you can't. you are one person. this is how numbers work. 1 !> 1000. i feel like people have been nothing but polite and understanding to you but INCESSANTLY you've done nothing but clog the thread with just the most droolposting logic i am genuinely trying to help you here when I say that if you want to actually have people take you even slightly seriously, stop spamming the discussion thread with incessant whining and rambling and instead try to actually contribute in any meaningful sense. get involved in community events. I literally cannot think of a single person who wants to crack open the discussion thread for a tier they have either played for a while or are just getting into and see one guy just endlessly babbling about a suspect that made the format go from svou with megas to a more comprehensive and unique metagame with entirely different threats and choices to consider. there is no other metagame where terapagos is legal AND a solid choice (except maybe uubers idk), nor is there any other place where buzzwole can find a new niche as an answer to the myriad new fighting types, NOR is there any other place where there is so much experimentation and niche teambuilding opportunity available. before i got really into the most competitive side of mons i was a sv/ndubers spammer and got top 100 and i remember being so hype about it (this is when fucking xern was still legal lol i was boosted boosted). I decided to get on the forums for the miraidon suspect and i was getting fucking washed by tournament players and I realized that I was nowhere near as good as i thought i was.

I really started to get into the opportunities available to me via the forums and even though I'm not anything especially remarkable (yet) I've still been able to grow as a player and hop into new tiers (peaked rank 12 smou and rank 10 ndou) and I ONLY was able to do that with the help of the forum's discussion and viability threads. what I wouldn't have needed would be someone incessantly whining about megagross being banned for a week straight, arguing with tier leaders incessantly and regurgitating the same arguments over. and over. and over. and over.

i know this definitely isn't helping the whole "threads should be a place for mons discussion and not incessant drama" point i'm trying to make but I'm just begging you dude just give it a rest. talk to people on the fucking discord if you just feel the need to say it. lord fucking knows i've said some stupid ass shit on there but you know what? that's FINE. having your own takes and personal reasoning is part of what makes for good discussion, but too many people get truly caught up in the idea that because you can post in a much larger thread rather than just an offhand comment or reply thus makes your statements or opinions worth more or suddenly true is mind-boggling. I know i've probably built a bit of a rep as a forum clown but like lets just try to make the experience of browsing the top resource for the best gen 9 metagame a little less fucking intolerable
 
lets just move on now ,

NatDex Blind Draft is entering playoffs. Rigged Tournament has finished and Seasonal is still thing i guess (idk I kinda mentally clocked out of that one lol). What mons/archetypes do we think have gotten better or worse with metagame optimization?

Something I've been working on is trying to refine post-tera stall by doing techs like running fast Corviknight and Payapa Toxapex. Outside of stall I also like Rock Slide Ting-Lu a lot to target stuff like Yard, Moltres, and Zapdos easier. What sort of techs have you guys been running?
 
What mons/archetypes do we think have gotten better or worse with metagame optimization?
I’ve seen Sun fall of a cliff compared to usage in early January. People started adapting to beating it and its usage went down cause of it.

Recently I’ve been thinking about building around Mega Venusaur. Mega Venu + Ting Lu seems like a decent core, and I’d like to try it out a bit and see if it holds up.

I’ve also been using quite a bit of Mega Latios. It’s got a good defensive typing, and luster purge spdef drops help it against some checks. Also gets good coverage in aura sphere, mystical fire, and ice beam. Gets roost and recover too for heals. It puts in decent work on teams I put it on.
 
Outside of stall I also like Rock Slide Ting-Lu a lot to target stuff like Yard, Moltres, and Zapdos easier. What sort of techs have you guys been running?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!

I am an avid Rock Slide Ting-Lu enjoyer, getting smacked around by Zard Y, Moltres, and Volcarona is just annoying. Being able to turn the tide and OHKO them feels pretty good. I feel like Rock Slide has a lot of advantages over something like Ruination. The most important one being that it makes Ting-Lu able to actually kill Flying types, otherwise they might just spam Defog & Hurricane on you until you're forced to leave the field.
 
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!

I am an avid Rock Slide Ting-Lu enjoyer, getting smacked around by Zard Y, Moltres, and Volcarona is just annoying. Being able to turn the tide and OHKO them feels pretty good. I feel like Rock Slide has a lot of advantages over something like Ruination. The most important one being that it makes Ting-Lu able to actually kill Flying types, otherwise they might just spam Defog & Hurricane on you until you're forced to leave the field.
Rock Slide ting-lu is really great and I once saw a Payback ting-lu on ladder.I think Payback tinglu is a cool set that can cause tons of damage other than Earthquake.
And the craziest set I've seen is Rest Ting-lu.This thing is really surprising and really great especially for Choiced attackers.
 
advent of fini is pretty cool mon is rad as fuck cm taunt rocks

melmetal is CRIMINALLY underused now that sun is dropping off. gets to click buttons for free so often and with misty terrain up to block flame body procs you wind up with just such a powerhouse in most games

iron crown similarly underused but understandably a bit more niche. losing to gambit/ghold/pult really sucks and booster sets have their issues but on teams with koko i think its really amazing to have if you can slot the quake dodges

to nobody's surprise kyurem sucks ass now that it cant touch its resists but i think there might be something there with glowking + specs blizzard. problem is that it's juuuuust fast enough to beat up all the grounds in the tier but its just too slow to 1v1 anything else. feels like it either wins off preview with freezedry/dd loaded dice or it is literally the most useless mon ever
 
What mons/archetypes do we think have gotten better or worse with metagame optimization?

What sort of techs have you guys been running?
Q1: pursuit trapping mttar and (especially) gambit. Don’t get me wrong, pursuit is still a great progress tool and a unique mechanic which heavily rewards skill and matchup understanding. It just feels like you are not trapping the obvious targets anymore (ghosts, psychics) as they tend to stay in and just blow you up with (z) focus blast. The z move even makes them not fear knock off or the focus miss. This applies to pretty much every gholdengo set, iron crown, lele, etc. Even pult, the one ghost which cannot threaten a ko on the trappers, can still find limited value from wisp/uturn, even on dd sets which run wips over sub nowadays. I will also add glowking being able to take 50/50s with chilly reception, and lele probably running less scarf than ever. Overall it feels like my ttar is mainly used for trapping birds instead of ghosts, which is still good, but not what you would expect. The era of “add pursuit to clear the ghosts” is kinda over.

Corviknight is still probably the biggest and worst teambuilding crutch still around. The mon is straight up setup fodder for so much stuff, cant ever defog on gholdengo, its iron press set is unplayable, and bulk up power trip is a cheese strat which really lacks the threat level needed to find setup turns. Also needs multiple setup turns.

Also yes, sun fell off a cliff. Turns out a “solved” archetype invites a lot of prep.

Q2: rotomH as a defogger vs gholdengo which comes with the additional utility of ground immunity and volt switch. I showcased this in a VR post some time ago. Judging by the very high popularity of gholdengo in tournament play, I would say it is a tech worth considering.
 
Recently I’ve been thinking about building around Mega Venusaur. Mega Venu + Ting Lu seems like a decent core, and I’d like to try it out a bit and see if it holds up.
I have a team using Ting Lu, Mega Venu, and Celesteela as a defensive backbone that feels good. Handles a lot of threats decently well but lacks any kind of pivoting and Zard Y can run you over. Corv might be better over Celesteela for that reason alone depending on the kind of offensive pressure you bring. Team if you want to look. Team has picks I started with for fun ATM but swapping the offensive core some has been on my to do list to get something more competitive with the team. Although it will feel wrong to not Flare Blitz things expecting to outspeed Darm
 
Something I've been working on is trying to refine post-tera stall by doing techs like running fast Corviknight and Payapa Toxapex. Outside of stall I also like Rock Slide Ting-Lu a lot to target stuff like Yard, Moltres, and Zapdos easier. What sort of techs have you guys been running?
Just gonna list some techs I’ve seen / used before.

:dragapult: there’s some interesting stuff this mon has. Drag z / fire z are nice z crystal options to hit certain threats like pex / molt for the former and gambit and Melm for the latter. Ghost z / even spell tag are nice options for stronger hits vs. steels and fairies like z ghold, tran, koko, and clef. I wonder if you could get greedy with specs hex lol… probably not good though.

:Gliscor: I’ve ran sd ice fang on this just for sd Gliscor mirrors, but it’s also good for Lando.

:Ogerpon-wellspring: synthesis is a neat way of using the mon as one of its biggest weaknesses is spikes, so synthesis helps it have more longevity in a game (and helps vs. gliscor and tusk long term). Taunt is also interesting in pex / Mola mus.

:Tapu lele: We’ve seen a decent amount of ghost z lele in ndbd at this point and I think I’ve come to accept it’s not that bad. I think we’ve also seen tapunium z lele used LOL which I thought was a funny tech. I’ve used boots on this thing as well and it helps lele overcome a big weakness in spikes / Tspikes from something like pex.

:Alomomola: AV is cheesy but if you get the perfect mu to snipe something with mirror coat it’s pretty funny. Lagging tail is another interesting item that means Mola can slow pivot on melm, pex, and even ferro on occasion.

:Garchomp: I hate Alomomola so substitute it is. Interesting tech used for not only exploiting Mola balance but also as a means to avoid toxic from Gliscor / molt and avoid rkilling attempts from pon or lop or whatever. Boomenheimer used fast utility chomp like some sm sets did in ndbd and it worked pretty well vs. offense.

:great tusk: I’ve seen some experimentation with stone edge tusk for the birds, and rock z can help secure ohkos on them (especially against tornt / Zapdos).

:iron valiant: I think I used band val at the start of the meta but I never used it ever since. Still seems like an interesting lure against some threats though. Liquidation is something I tried on sd to be funny with and I’ve sniped some Volcaronas and Moltres with it. Boots also is interesting since spikes are so powerful in this meta and it eases prediction from specs sets.

:Samurott-hisui: Although it’s more standard, encore feels nice as a way to exploit fat stuff like pex and Sciz trying to recover and then gain a spike off of that. It also helps immensely vs. sd gambit.

:Tapu Koko: fairy z nukes tusk, chomp, and bolt which in the case of tusk and bolt I think are annoying for Koko since gleam doesn’t ohko tusk and +1 bolt bounces off gleam. It also provides a cool nuke vs. weakened lando

:Zamazenta: there’s a lot of item experimentation you can do with this. On AOA sets (the best way to use zama rn) you can use zs like elec z and rock z along with stuff like lo and ebelt to give Zama an extra boost when it’s usually lacking in it with boots.

:heatran: I’ve personally liked tect on heatran to scout z from Ghold while also making games vs. lele and specs ival easier. Also gives tran all the lefties recovery it can get which is great for it because its longevity isn’t that good nowadays.

:Medicham-mega: After seeing mmx use it I tried fire + ice punch Mmedi with no prio and it’s worked pretty well, you just have to cope with the loss of prio which isn’t too bad in my opinion in exchange for wrecking every defensive core in the tier, especially since ho / offense are much less common.

:dragonite: Again, I hate Alomomola, so sub it is. Fly z is also nice in case you run into clef, zama or full physdef tusk. Bulky sets seem solid as well as a blanket check to most of the tier’s threatening wincons in general. The heal bell set LBN showed seemed really heat imo and is what I’m mainly referring to in terms of bulky sets, but bulky dd also seems solid.

:tornadus-therian: Lameflame used this vs. me in seasonal but fire z np tornt (and even off of np) is really heat and destroys a ton of balance structures with taunt. Nuking basically all the steels besides the declining heatran is a good trait to have.

:Rotom-wash: Is it weird to think that water z has potential? It makes sure Gliscor doesn’t win long term because of hydro misses / pp and it checks gambit pretty nicely. NP sets could also work well with sub to bully tf out of Gliscor pex cores as well.

:latios-mega: Latios has a ton of interesting coverage but sub I think is cool to avoid sucker mindgames and avoid rkillers like ival and lop. It also exploits Tox Gliscor and pex / Mola balance greatly. The cm psynoise sets that latios uses in sv ou could also be interesting.
 
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