Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[CappyThePulpy]

hax is really starting to get to me. 3 days of playing and i have only ONE secondary effect which mattered. In exchnage i have a 80% para rate and every pokemon with a flinching move gets serence grace every thing with low accuracy moves has no guard. especially annyoing if your trying to get 2950 coil for moon suspect and you get robbed by low ladder

Run covert cloak on everything



Now regarding all the ban hammers being proposed in the last few posts, I will share some thoughts:

I have to agree with hidin on the point, this is one of the mons holding the tier together and actually rewarding skill in most of its interactions. First of all, from hazard perspective, clicking defog/spin has some risk considerations and matchup assesment, while also adding depth to teambuilding, at least when judging if you should run hdb or your ideal item. You may build so you have no problem removing vs ghold, or you may accept the 40 turn hazard grindfest and spam boots. Regarding the zmove nukes, there are a lot of mons which absolutely nuke the entire tier from a similar speed stat. I would put z ghold in the same pool as zardY, rbolt and others, with neither of these being outclassed by ghold as they offer their own utility outside of their nuke buttons. If ghold is banned, one may consider running the significantly more powerful z aegislash which also has priority, kinda close to pex level bulk, kings shield and can also surprise with a special set or sub toxic. Sure, its slower, has no recovery and cant block defog or twave, but those are not the parts I see people actually complaining about.

is suspect worthy, as it is the tier’s premier spiker with just how reliably it can spike over and over again while being pretty immortal unless you switch into your (hazard/toxic weak) offensive mon to force it out with the threat of ice or (stab) water. Oh and theres also knock, uturn, defog, rocks, medium power stab eq, sd+facade and status immunity.

may become quite an issue after the moon ban

 

[about15gals]

imo if moon gets banned (hopefully it does because good lord) wellspring should actually get a lot easier to check because of just how well moon's able to break down common wellspring answers like dnite/lati twins etc. It's also one less offensive threat to keep in mind while building which makes accounting for wellspring a lot less costly in the builder due to the space it frees up

also dont ban gliscor that guy is literally holding the tier together atm

 

[Comett7778]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that we should hold off for a bit post (hopefully) Moon ban, but I still feel Gliscor and Wellspring could be issues. A Moon ban might even be good for Wellspring as now bulky balance will be worse, which Wellspring can struggle into. Could see something like Mega Latios and Pecharunt becoming more popular(like pre Moon unban) and off set that tho. Gliscor for now is suspect worthy and kinda sort maybe ban worthy. Could see it being way less of an issue post (hopefully) Moon ban tho

Unless something suddenly becomes insanely busted, definitely wait about a month or so before another suspect.
Pls ban Moon guys like seriously it’s a no brainer

 

[Moyashi]

Iimo if moon gets banned (hopefully it does because good lord) wellspring should actually get a lot easier to check because of just how well moon's able to break down common wellspring answers like dnite/lati twins etc. It's also one less offensive threat to keep in mind while building which makes accounting for wellspring a lot less costly in the builder due to the space it frees up

also dont ban gliscor that guy is literally holding the tier together atm

While I agree about holding off on potential other suspects if Moon is banned until some time has passed, I very much don’t agree that Gliscor is holding the tier together. It’s the other kind of annoying, centralizing pokemon that warps the builder and anchors a playstyle which is super potent and difficult to handle without specific breakers.

I talked about this in my ban post from the RM suspect thread, but Gliscor Spikes teams shape team building in a way that’s unhealthy. These teams are very defensively robust and getting past Gliscor itself is difficult as a result to its longevity and the way it beats most of our removal options. Anything strong like Urshifu-R or Wellspring can struggle with other teammates on Gliscor’s team, and the latter also has to contend with constant hazard pressure wearing it down.

While laddering for reqs, I of course thought Roaring Moon felt overbearing but Gliscor teams felt just as frustrating. I had a team with SubCM Keldeo which in theory could pressure most of a standard Gliscor team, but in practice I found it struggled, especially as all it took was one Toxic prediction from the opponent and Keldeo stopped being counter play because that in conjunction with Spikes pressure wore it down way too fast. This also happens to apply to other breakers trying to snipe these teams, if they get poisoned trying to switch in, it’s only a matter of time.

Again, I think we should wait some time if Roaring Moon is banned to see how the metagame develops, but personally I don’t have high hopes about Gliscor being more balanced.

 

[Darlington]

I thought I wasn't going to comeback but just some things I want to say. I was wrong about Gambit. It's needed. Ogerpon-W, I have a love hate for this mon. I think it's only broken if it's checks are taken care of because other bigger threats like Roaring Moon but other than that, I think it's fine. It has more checks plus it hates status moves. I knew Roaring Moon was a problem, same like Mega Mance. You only one dd and that's it. Hopefully it's actually banned. Now Gliscor lol, who knew Gamefreak giving it Toxic Spikes which is fine but Spikes will make it more immortal. Funny thing is Gliscor did ran protect+toxic+knock off+Earthquake in Gen 5 but that is one differences between Gen 5 and this Gen 9. It didn't have spikes and call me crazy but I think if Gamefreak did gave it spikes it earlier Gena then I think it would have probably been banned. Who knew Toxic Heal+Spikes+Protect will be problematic. Even if Roaring Moon is banned, Gliscor is still an issue. Even though Gliscor is my top 10 favorite but even I have to agree that it's problematic. Like the only good and I mean only good Gliscor counter is Hatt but doesn't have anything to threaten Gliscor and even though Tapu Lele can 2ko it, that's not enough. So I think after Moon gets banned then see if Gliscor is still problematic. I could be wrong but I'm not even too sure anymore

 

[Darlington]

I don't know if people will agree with on this but does anyone find Alomomola more annoying that ever. I swear this Mon is oppressed. This mom doesn't die. Say what you want about Garg, Gliscor, and Lex but I find those three to be easier to check and counter than Alomomola. Besides Mega Zard Y, Calm Mind Raging Bolt, KingGambit and maybe Ogerpon-W, what else really check this Mon or counter it. No physical a can knock it out besides some Z moves, can run Spd/AV which also doesn't die either. I honestly think Alomomola was better to deal with in the Tera meta game. It's not oppressed in Ou because no toxic. Toxic is the real reason it's oppressed with Flip Turn. Combine Wish,Protect, Scald/Flip Turn, Toxic with Regenerator is not healthy. Now yeah Pex can do the same thing like Alomomola but forgetting one key, No Flip Turn and Wish is better than Recover since it has more PP. Maybe I'm just bugging but I want Alomomola to be banned or at least suspect tested because it's not fun playing against than mon. I rather lose to Pex,Garg, Gliscor than Alomomola.

 

[pokegod70419]

I don't know if people will agree with on this but does anyone find Alomomola more annoying that ever. I swear this Mon is oppressed. This mom doesn't die. Say what you want about Garg, Gliscor, and Lex but I find those three to be easier to check and counter than Alomomola. Besides Mega Zard Y, Calm Mind Raging Bolt, KingGambit and maybe Ogerpon-W, what else really check this Mon or counter it. No physical a can knock it out besides some Z moves, can run Spd/AV which also doesn't die either. I honestly think Alomomola was better to deal with in the Tera meta game. It's not oppressed in Ou because no toxic. Toxic is the real reason it's oppressed with Flip Turn. Combine Wish,Protect, Scald/Flip Turn, Toxic with Regenerator is not healthy. Now yeah Pex can do the same thing like Alomomola but forgetting one key, No Flip Turn and Wish is better than Recover since it has more PP. Maybe I'm just bugging but I want Alomomola to be banned or at least suspect tested because it's not fun playing against than mon. I rather lose to Pex,Garg, Gliscor than Alomomola.

alo is not broken defensively. it isn't forcing you to run a specifically bad mon to beat it since , , and are great mons and is unhealthy, it's probably the most reliable check defensiely we have atm with av, and it fits well on a lot of teams as a blanket check to a lot of the current offensive threats in the metagame, and is all around a healthy mon that we desperately need in the tier right now for its defensive capabilities

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hey guys. I'm back after being dead for almost a year lmao

I don't know if people will agree with on this but does anyone find Alomomola more annoying that ever. I swear this Mon is oppressed. This mom doesn't die. Say what you want about Garg, Gliscor, and Lex but I find those three to be easier to check and counter than Alomomola. Besides Mega Zard Y, Calm Mind Raging Bolt, KingGambit and maybe Ogerpon-W, what else really check this Mon or counter it. No physical a can knock it out besides some Z moves, can run Spd/AV which also doesn't die either. I honestly think Alomomola was better to deal with in the Tera meta game. It's not oppressed in Ou because no toxic. Toxic is the real reason it's oppressed with Flip Turn. Combine Wish,Protect, Scald/Flip Turn, Toxic with Regenerator is not healthy. Now yeah Pex can do the same thing like Alomomola but forgetting one key, No Flip Turn and Wish is better than Recover since it has more PP. Maybe I'm just bugging but I want Alomomola to be banned or at least suspect tested because it's not fun playing against than mon. I rather lose to Pex,Garg, Gliscor than Alomomola.

That's what big stall wants you to think. Knock+hazard spam or boosted mons blitz through mola

In tandem with the rm suspect, I'm currently leaning towards a dnb as while it's a good, almost too good wallbreaker, it does sort of keep the meta in balance(). I will have to wait and observer more though

 

[CappyThePulpy]

https://pokepast.es/23fefe2bff37bb23

Peaked #100 on ladder, my highest spot ever, with
Dont judge me, I’m not a good player. Probably someone with real skills can bring this much higher. I am telling you, this mon has potential and it definitely helps that most of its counters are fat mons which can get beat down by stuff like specs kyurem.

Anyways, this is not a bee rant, nor a team review. Yes, that gambit shouldnt be defiant, hatt shouldnt have aroma, and gambit should honestly be a gholdengo.

But I hope someone else picks up the bee torch. I am off to build a sirfetched team and lose all my rating

 

[Hittite Jumpscare]

CHARIZARD - MEGA - Y MEGA RANT
I would like to rant about how is a problem and should probably be banned. I'm sure this has been said before, but I'd like to input my thoughts on it.

My main issue with this Pokemon is that it is too good of a wall breaker (and Pokemon in general) and has no real counters in this metagame. With a powerful Drought ability to create nukes of Weather Balls, and almost perfect coverage with Solar Beam for the pesky Waters and Rocks that resists its Weather Balls, as well as extra coverage with several other moves, and reliable recovery too with Roost, it's is very hard to overcome this threat. There is nothing complex about its overbearing presence, it just doesn't have any checks/counters.
I'll do this simply enough by listing would-be checks from what I can think of. Tell me if there's any more.

The Good

Pros:
Resists both Solar Beam and Weather Ball, and can OHKO with Outrage/Z-Outrage thanks to Protosynthesis boost in the Sun set up by itself. Should be good enough.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 327-385 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Only if that is 252 atk 252 speed . That is 62.4% of all sets though, so should be fine.
However, there are a few things.
1. Weather Ball still does a massive chunk to Roaring Moon, even without hazard support.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as mentioned before, bulky Roaring Moon is not common, so good luck.
2. If switches in on Scorching Sands, there is a 30% chance of it getting burned, severely weakening it.
252 Atk Protosynthesis burned Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 163-192 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. It isn't uncommon for to run Focus Blast instead of Scorching Sands as a way to hit other would-be counters (which will be shown later). A predict by the user would result in getting very closed to OHKO'd, or straight-up OHKO'd. With rocks it's even worse.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even a far-out option, 37.6% of all s run it. The fact that might get banned also doesn't help its case.


Pros:
In my opinion is probably the best option against . It shrugs off all of its attacks and can reliably set-up Toxic against it. It's most common set is max Sp. Def at 14% usage, and the next 35.9% of sets run some sort of Sp. Def investment. Regenerator and Recover allow to repeatedly come in on too.
Cons:
Scorching Sands 3HKOs , and has 16 PP, so it can either PP stall out Recover PP, or severely dent it.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And yes, while 59.8% of all do run Toxic, there is a very solid chance that they're running T-Spikes instead. If so, then Toxapex can't really touch with Scald, because remember, Drought halves water attack moves and it also has Roost.
0 SpA Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 44-54 (14.8 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Burn chance from Scorching Sands doesn't have too. Still, very solid.


Pros:
Resists all commons options on , especially so with Multiscale. In fact, thanks to that ability, most s are 3HKO'd by most things throws at it, and thus can safely set-up. Common Z-Moves and Outrage OHKO at +1 attack. It can also avoid burns from Scorching Sands thanks to its Flying type.
+1 252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 367-433 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk :Dragonite Supersonic: Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 535-630 (180.1 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
If it's a , all chill. But Z-Moves are where it gets icky. Due to the limitations of Z-Crystals, will lose 25% of its health if rocks are up. Then that messes everything up.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-167 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, a 2HKO. Sp. Def usage is also only 3.5% usage, so yeah, good luck.
Banded E-Speed also doesn't OHKO , so tough luck.
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 180-212 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pros:
Unlike other previous checks/"counters", bulky is a fairly common choice, being 10.2% of all of them. Offensive s aren't bad too, they can stomach one hit before OHKOing with a Z-Move/Stone Edge, or do massive damage at the very least.
252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 240-283 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 379-447 (127.6 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Offensive s can't leave repeated hits from
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 174-205 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And while bulky s can live more hits, it's slower, thus has to eat more hits, which overall is more. helps negate this however, and Toxic + Dragon Tail + Rocks is troublesome for the user. Good luck if you don't have a bulky though.

Pros:
All four resist 's moves and has reliable recovery with Roost/Recover. Even regular , the least bulky of the bunch, is very likely to survive :charizards-mega-y:'s Weather Ball.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
After the switch-in, the forms can use it as set-up fodder or the forms can hit very hard with Draco Meteor/Psychic Moves.
Cons:
Pretty specific Pokemon, but that's about it.

Pros:
Like , 's Protosynthesis is really a thorn for . And while it does underspeed it, 's STAB Electric Priority move Thunderclap solves that problem.
252 SpA Protosynthesis Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A pretty common Pokemon too.
Cons:
The most common set cannot switch-in on a Scorching Sands.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 196-232 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:assult-vest: helps and is common, but then is prone to hazards, and is still 3HKO'd even without them.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest : 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thunderclap mindgames can also prove deadly for the user, if they click anything other than Thunderclap, does get the KO.


Pros:
is a pretty interesting option. Thanks to its Sand Stream ability, it can override 's Drought, weakening Weather Ball and effectively halving Solar Beam, as well as boosting its own Sp. Def by 1.5x. While is more offensive leaning and has a straight-up BST buff, regular can hold an or any berries for extra defence. STAB Stone Edge OHKOs even if they get a burn with Scorching Sands.
252+ Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 342-404 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 58-70 (14.3 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD in Sand: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Cons:
While the forms don't mind getting burned against specifically, they will mind for the rest of the game. Also, while Scorching Sands can be ignored, Focus Blast can definitely not be ignored.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD : in Sand: 348-412 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
One smart predict and it's basically a gone .



Pros:
Has an amazing typing and bulk spread against . Bulletproof negates Weather Ball and Focus Blast, it resists Solar Beam, can shrug off Scorching Sands and burn since it's usually a Sp. Attacker, and can threaten heavy damage with Z-Clangorous Soul and its omniboost.
252 SpA Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 223-264 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 85-101 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO
Cons:
Not much, just a very specific Pokemon in general.

The Bad

No. Just no.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD in Sun: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You'd think the ability would help here. No, it does not. It's a 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Shell in Sun: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even with max Sp. Def + HP and an , Solar Beam still has a chance to 2HKO. Even better with rocks. Just pray to get low rolls.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

needs the to stand a chance against . It can't do much damage however unless you run an inferior moveset with Power Gem, which then you're missing out on a move. Also, they could just predict the switch-in and use Solar Beam so Scorching Sands can just 2HKO if it's Sp. Def . However, ff it is Sp. Def. then Power Gem doesn't even guarantee an OHKO.
0 SpA Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And if it's offensive , Scorching Sands just OHKOs.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 340-400 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Focus Blast on a Sp. Def 2HKOs.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD : 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD in Sun: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(In return can't 3HKO in time)
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD : 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

This is where the legendary Ancient Power tech, the 60 BP rock move, comes into play. While the mirror match is interesting, is just a sad case.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 248-292 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Sp. Def (not even the most common set) gets 2HKO'd, the mirror match is pretty much a gamble. 21.2% of all s carry Ancient Power, and since it's a speed tie, it's basically a 10% chance that either one of the s survives and the other doesn't. This unpredictability makes it so damn volatile.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Some would think rain changing 's Weather Ball into a STABless water move would help out, right? No.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD in Rain: 121-143 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD : 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 163-192 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD : 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Best bet is to safely get onto the field and click Electro Shot. Problem? can delay its mega to whenever it wants to so it can override rain in the middle, thus disrupting so much stuff.


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 205-243 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Ugly
These are weird interactions that I can't really say if it's positive for the user or not.

Following the footsteps of and , here we have levitating Dragon Pokemon with roost! But in all seriousness, all these Pokemon need heavy bulk investment to stomach any hits. Let's start off with
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 155-183 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
It underspeeds and gets practically 2HKO'd by Weather Ball. Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO if it's .
252+ SpA Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Onto ! It CAN switch in on one Solar Beam/Weather Ball and OHKO with Scarf Stone Edge, but it's still a 2HKO if there's no bulk, and Stone Edge is notoriously unreliable, so 20% of times goes out.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 170-201 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is only here because I saw it on a team in the NatDex OU Bazaar. Click here to see. Reached Top 8 on the ladder, damn impressive.


All great Sp. Def walls, but these two are almost exclusively stall Pokemon, and excels in crushing/breaking stall, so you have to keep these two pink blobs constantly healthy.


can survive a Scorching Sands thanks to its great natural bulk even with rocks up, and can practically OHKO with Bolt Strike. Problem: takes massive chip. Is this worth it? This goes to all other Pokemon that can OHKO and can safely switch in once.


Haha really funny, Sturdy Mirror Coat/Metal Burst/ be funny, haha. No. Rocks.


A very common lead match-up is against , where can mega evole and OHKO with Diamond Storm. However, like Victini, can it eat a hit? Also, what if they have a lead instead? Thus, is a weird check/counter/thing.
Any Problems with Itself?
Cons:
Of course, is not without its flaws.
1. It is a 4x rock weak Pokemon that cannot hold . Not very good.
2. While not bad, 78 - 78 - 115 bulk can only get you so far in tanking priority moves.
3. While 100 speed is serviceable, it's speedties a lot of other Pokemon, like , and , and underspeeds a lot more, like , , and .
4. Everything listed is a switch-in, so therefore if any Pokemon gets a safe switch-in, it can force out and set up rocks or set-up, something like that.
5. 4MSS. can't carry Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power all in one slot, so if you have a check/counter to its most common move (scorching sands), you should be good.

Pros:
However, this is just . I believe one of the more dangerous aspects about it is that how it enables so much teammates that cover its weaknesses and many more. Thus, if its teammates are alive, it kinda has none.
The fact that it has no reliable switch-ins other than stall staples and random Dragon types says a lot too.
Also thanks to Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power, it can pick and choose counters. This creates unhealthy decision making during games, and sometimes results in gambles that they don't have moves, and if you predicted wrong, you are punished HARD. This is inherently unhealthy.

Teammates

practically has perfect synergy with . Not only it deals with a lot of checks/counters of it, but it has Protosynthesis to give it an attack/speed boost in the sun set up by itself, and Rapid Spin to deal with any hazards on field. It's typing also offers a lot of switch-in options. In return nukes physical walls that could handle , like and .

Deals With:



This could get banned soon, so I would advise to read this section with a bit of salt. Either way, either choice locked or set-up, is a menace in sun, and greatly helps with . Basically for all the same reasons with , except it's far more offensive.

Deals with: (kinda)



Another past paradox Pokemon! Protosynthesis boosts offence, yada yada, deals with threats too with strong Electric/Dragon STAB.
Deals with: (kinda)


Finally a non-Paradox Pokemon! With double speed from 's drought, can punch holes in pesky rocks/waters/grounds that could otherwise survive . With Earth Power, Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball, it can pick and choose its counters.
Deals with:
Hold Up!
Aren't I just listing common sun Pokemon? Am I saying that Drought should be banned instead of ? Wouldn't this be the same with or ? Why am I picking on Game Freak's child so much?
The issue is, is nowhere near or . It is simply better.
Let's give a useful analogy. in Gen 9 UU is a pretty similar case. What led to its ban is how its Grassy Terrain teams ravaged the UU landscape, enabling threats such as unburden , , , , and other low-tier picks. While the fact that the terrain/weather setter can pack a punch (though 's grass STAB is so much worse than 's Weather Ball), the fact that it can so easily activate other threats thanks to its ability is what makes it so menacing.
So all of a sudden you aren't just preparing for . You also have to prepare for , , and , or any combo of those, or any other lower-tier abusers, or even all 4 and more! The restrictions this puts on teambuilding in my opinion is wholly unhealthy.
And yes, and enables the exact same Pokemon, but the main difference is is a good Pokemon by itself. While you have to keep constant support to keep and alive for drought, needs minimal support to do its job. The fact that nothing wants to switch in onto it also makes teambuilding even WORSE. This is how like when was used after was banned, Grass Terrain teams suddenly became so much more manageable. Thus, is the problem, not Drought.
Personal Experience
Now let's speak from my perspective on the horrors of .
Whenever I try teambuilding, the first question that comes to me is What can I do to deal with ? and the issue is that I barely have any answers. Below are some ways on how I had to try to deal with it with varying success.
----- : HP Rock to bait in . Worked pretty well! Problem, it was a bait.
----- : I had offensive with Power Gem. Worked pretty well, but I had to keep up its so much, and once I switched-in on a solar beam and then it died. Not fun.
----- : with HP Rock to bait in . Same problems with , it's a bait. could eat some hits, but couldn't do much in return.
----- : I had Ancient Power in an attempt to deal with . My most fond memory was when an opposing used Ancient Power on it, cleanly OHKOing it. I think that was the last time I ever used this team.
- - - - - : I had Z-Stone Edge with Wish to constantly keep it healthy. Hazards became a problem since isn't a great Defogger, but I needed it. Once was weak, easily overwhelms this team.

----- : Volt Switch OHKOS 75% of the time. Should be good enough, right? Problem, people aren't dumb, they'y not keeping on . They will switch to or , which causes problems. Do I click Volt Switch predicting a stay-in? Do I click Focus Blast predicting ? Or HP Ice for ? This is unhealthy. I even have Ancient Power in hopes they don't have Ancient Power on their one. Worked alright.

So in my experience is an absolute pain to teambuild against, resulting in me using obscure baits or worse movesets on Pokemon that would appreciate other moves.

Final Verdict
's combination of a vicious Weather Ball thanks to its sky-high Sp. Atk and Drought, nearly perfect coverage in Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Focus Blast and Ancient Power allowing it to pick its checks, Roost for longetivity and near perfect synergy with most Sun abusers makes it to constricting in teambuilding, which is unhealthy. Thus, it should be BANNED.

Please say something if you have any thoughts. Is this post too long? Yes. This might get deleted.
Source: https://munchstats.com/gen9nationaldex/1630/Charizard-Mega-Y​

 

[Runo]

CHARIZARD - MEGA - Y MEGA RANT
I would like to rant about how is a problem and should probably be banned. I'm sure this has been said before, but I'd like to input my thoughts on it.

My main issue with this Pokemon is that it is too good of a wall breaker (and Pokemon in general) and has no real counters in this metagame. With a powerful Drought ability to create nukes of Weather Balls, and almost perfect coverage with Solar Beam for the pesky Waters and Rocks that resists its Weather Balls, as well as extra coverage with several other moves, and reliable recovery too with Roost, it's is very hard to overcome this threat. There is nothing complex about its overbearing presence, it just doesn't have any checks/counters.
I'll do this simply enough by listing would-be checks from what I can think of. Tell me if there's any more.

The Good

Pros:
Resists both Solar Beam and Weather Ball, and can OHKO with Outrage/Z-Outrage thanks to Protosynthesis boost in the Sun set up by itself. Should be good enough.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 327-385 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Only if that is 252 atk 252 speed . That is 62.4% of all sets though, so should be fine.
However, there are a few things.
1. Weather Ball still does a massive chunk to Roaring Moon, even without hazard support.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as mentioned before, bulky Roaring Moon is not common, so good luck.
2. If switches in on Scorching Sands, there is a 30% chance of it getting burned, severely weakening it.
252 Atk Protosynthesis burned Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 163-192 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. It isn't uncommon for to run Focus Blast instead of Scorching Sands as a way to hit other would-be counters (which will be shown later). A predict by the user would result in getting very closed to OHKO'd, or straight-up OHKO'd. With rocks it's even worse.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even a far-out option, 37.6% of all s run it. The fact that might get banned also doesn't help its case.


Pros:
In my opinion is probably the best option against . It shrugs off all of its attacks and can reliably set-up Toxic against it. It's most common set is max Sp. Def at 14% usage, and the next 35.9% of sets run some sort of Sp. Def investment. Regenerator and Recover allow to repeatedly come in on too.
Cons:
Scorching Sands 3HKOs , and has 16 PP, so it can either PP stall out Recover PP, or severely dent it.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And yes, while 59.8% of all do run Toxic, there is a very solid chance that they're running T-Spikes instead. If so, then Toxapex can't really touch with Scald, because remember, Drought halves water attack moves and it also has Roost.
0 SpA Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 44-54 (14.8 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Burn chance from Scorching Sands doesn't have too. Still, very solid.


Pros:
Resists all commons options on , especially so with Multiscale. In fact, thanks to that ability, most s are 3HKO'd by most things throws at it, and thus can safely set-up. Common Z-Moves and Outrage OHKO at +1 attack. It can also avoid burns from Scorching Sands thanks to its Flying type.
+1 252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 367-433 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk :Dragonite Supersonic: Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 535-630 (180.1 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
If it's a , all chill. But Z-Moves are where it gets icky. Due to the limitations of Z-Crystals, will lose 25% of its health if rocks are up. Then that messes everything up.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-167 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, a 2HKO. Sp. Def usage is also only 3.5% usage, so yeah, good luck.
Banded E-Speed also doesn't OHKO , so tough luck.
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 180-212 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pros:
Unlike other previous checks/"counters", bulky is a fairly common choice, being 10.2% of all of them. Offensive s aren't bad too, they can stomach one hit before OHKOing with a Z-Move/Stone Edge, or do massive damage at the very least.
252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 240-283 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 379-447 (127.6 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Offensive s can't leave repeated hits from
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 174-205 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And while bulky s can live more hits, it's slower, thus has to eat more hits, which overall is more. helps negate this however, and Toxic + Dragon Tail + Rocks is troublesome for the user. Good luck if you don't have a bulky though.

Pros:
All four resist 's moves and has reliable recovery with Roost/Recover. Even regular , the least bulky of the bunch, is very likely to survive :charizards-mega-y:'s Weather Ball.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
After the switch-in, the forms can use it as set-up fodder or the forms can hit very hard with Draco Meteor/Psychic Moves.
Cons:
Pretty specific Pokemon, but that's about it.

Pros:
Like , 's Protosynthesis is really a thorn for . And while it does underspeed it, 's STAB Electric Priority move Thunderclap solves that problem.
252 SpA Protosynthesis Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A pretty common Pokemon too.
Cons:
The most common set cannot switch-in on a Scorching Sands.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 196-232 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:assult-vest: helps and is common, but then is prone to hazards, and is still 3HKO'd even without them.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest : 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thunderclap mindgames can also prove deadly for the user, if they click anything other than Thunderclap, does get the KO.


Pros:
is a pretty interesting option. Thanks to its Sand Stream ability, it can override 's Drought, weakening Weather Ball and effectively halving Solar Beam, as well as boosting its own Sp. Def by 1.5x. While is more offensive leaning and has a straight-up BST buff, regular can hold an or any berries for extra defence. STAB Stone Edge OHKOs even if they get a burn with Scorching Sands.
252+ Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 342-404 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 58-70 (14.3 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD in Sand: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Cons:
While the forms don't mind getting burned against specifically, they will mind for the rest of the game. Also, while Scorching Sands can be ignored, Focus Blast can definitely not be ignored.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD : in Sand: 348-412 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
One smart predict and it's basically a gone .



Pros:
Has an amazing typing and bulk spread against . Bulletproof negates Weather Ball and Focus Blast, it resists Solar Beam, can shrug off Scorching Sands and burn since it's usually a Sp. Attacker, and can threaten heavy damage with Z-Clangorous Soul and its omniboost.
252 SpA Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 223-264 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 85-101 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO
Cons:
Not much, just a very specific Pokemon in general.

The Bad

No. Just no.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD in Sun: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You'd think the ability would help here. No, it does not. It's a 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Shell in Sun: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even with max Sp. Def + HP and an , Solar Beam still has a chance to 2HKO. Even better with rocks. Just pray to get low rolls.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

needs the to stand a chance against . It can't do much damage however unless you run an inferior moveset with Power Gem, which then you're missing out on a move. Also, they could just predict the switch-in and use Solar Beam so Scorching Sands can just 2HKO if it's Sp. Def . However, ff it is Sp. Def. then Power Gem doesn't even guarantee an OHKO.
0 SpA Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And if it's offensive , Scorching Sands just OHKOs.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 340-400 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Focus Blast on a Sp. Def 2HKOs.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD : 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD in Sun: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(In return can't 3HKO in time)
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD : 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

This is where the legendary Ancient Power tech, the 60 BP rock move, comes into play. While the mirror match is interesting, is just a sad case.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 248-292 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Sp. Def (not even the most common set) gets 2HKO'd, the mirror match is pretty much a gamble. 21.2% of all s carry Ancient Power, and since it's a speed tie, it's basically a 10% chance that either one of the s survives and the other doesn't. This unpredictability makes it so damn volatile.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Some would think rain changing 's Weather Ball into a STABless water move would help out, right? No.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD in Rain: 121-143 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD : 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 163-192 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD : 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Best bet is to safely get onto the field and click Electro Shot. Problem? can delay its mega to whenever it wants to so it can override rain in the middle, thus disrupting so much stuff.


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 205-243 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Ugly
These are weird interactions that I can't really say if it's positive for the user or not.

Following the footsteps of and , here we have levitating Dragon Pokemon with roost! But in all seriousness, all these Pokemon need heavy bulk investment to stomach any hits. Let's start off with
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 155-183 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
It underspeeds and gets practically 2HKO'd by Weather Ball. Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO if it's .
252+ SpA Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Onto ! It CAN switch in on one Solar Beam/Weather Ball and OHKO with Scarf Stone Edge, but it's still a 2HKO if there's no bulk, and Stone Edge is notoriously unreliable, so 20% of times goes out.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 170-201 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is only here because I saw it on a team in the NatDex OU Bazaar. Click here to see. Reached Top 8 on the ladder, damn impressive.


All great Sp. Def walls, but these two are almost exclusively stall Pokemon, and excels in crushing/breaking stall, so you have to keep these two pink blobs constantly healthy.


can survive a Scorching Sands thanks to its great natural bulk even with rocks up, and can practically OHKO with Bolt Strike. Problem: takes massive chip. Is this worth it? This goes to all other Pokemon that can OHKO and can safely switch in once.


Haha really funny, Sturdy Mirror Coat/Metal Burst/ be funny, haha. No. Rocks.


A very common lead match-up is against , where can mega evole and OHKO with Diamond Storm. However, like Victini, can it eat a hit? Also, what if they have a lead instead? Thus, is a weird check/counter/thing.
Any Problems with Itself?
Cons:
Of course, is not without its flaws.
1. It is a 4x rock weak Pokemon that cannot hold . Not very good.
2. While not bad, 78 - 78 - 115 bulk can only get you so far in tanking priority moves.
3. While 100 speed is serviceable, it's speedties a lot of other Pokemon, like , and , and underspeeds a lot more, like , , and .
4. Everything listed is a switch-in, so therefore if any Pokemon gets a safe switch-in, it can force out and set up rocks or set-up, something like that.
5. 4MSS. can't carry Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power all in one slot, so if you have a check/counter to its most common move (scorching sands), you should be good.

Pros:
However, this is just . I believe one of the more dangerous aspects about it is that how it enables so much teammates that cover its weaknesses and many more. Thus, if its teammates are alive, it kinda has none.
The fact that it has no reliable switch-ins other than stall staples and random Dragon types says a lot too.
Also thanks to Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power, it can pick and choose counters. This creates unhealthy decision making during games, and sometimes results in gambles that they don't have moves, and if you predicted wrong, you are punished HARD. This is inherently unhealthy.

Teammates

practically has perfect synergy with . Not only it deals with a lot of checks/counters of it, but it has Protosynthesis to give it an attack/speed boost in the sun set up by itself, and Rapid Spin to deal with any hazards on field. It's typing also offers a lot of switch-in options. In return nukes physical walls that could handle , like and .

Deals With:



This could get banned soon, so I would advise to read this section with a bit of salt. Either way, either choice locked or set-up, is a menace in sun, and greatly helps with . Basically for all the same reasons with , except it's far more offensive.

Deals with: (kinda)



Another past paradox Pokemon! Protosynthesis boosts offence, yada yada, deals with threats too with strong Electric/Dragon STAB.
Deals with: (kinda)


Finally a non-Paradox Pokemon! With double speed from 's drought, can punch holes in pesky rocks/waters/grounds that could otherwise survive . With Earth Power, Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball, it can pick and choose its counters.
Deals with:
Hold Up!
Aren't I just listing common sun Pokemon? Am I saying that Drought should be banned instead of ? Wouldn't this be the same with or ? Why am I picking on Game Freak's child so much?
The issue is, is nowhere near or . It is simply better.
Let's give a useful analogy. in Gen 9 UU is a pretty similar case. What led to its ban is how its Grassy Terrain teams ravaged the UU landscape, enabling threats such as unburden , , , , and other low-tier picks. While the fact that the terrain/weather setter can pack a punch (though 's grass STAB is so much worse than 's Weather Ball), the fact that it can so easily activate other threats thanks to its ability is what makes it so menacing.
So all of a sudden you aren't just preparing for . You also have to prepare for , , and , or any combo of those, or any other lower-tier abusers, or even all 4 and more! The restrictions this puts on teambuilding in my opinion is wholly unhealthy.
And yes, and enables the exact same Pokemon, but the main difference is is a good Pokemon by itself. While you have to keep constant support to keep and alive for drought, needs minimal support to do its job. The fact that nothing wants to switch in onto it also makes teambuilding even WORSE. This is how like when was used after was banned, Grass Terrain teams suddenly became so much more manageable. Thus, is the problem, not Drought.
Personal Experience
Now let's speak from my perspective on the horrors of .
Whenever I try teambuilding, the first question that comes to me is What can I do to deal with ? and the issue is that I barely have any answers. Below are some ways on how I had to try to deal with it with varying success.
----- : HP Rock to bait in . Worked pretty well! Problem, it was a bait.
----- : I had offensive with Power Gem. Worked pretty well, but I had to keep up its so much, and once I switched-in on a solar beam and then it died. Not fun.
----- : with HP Rock to bait in . Same problems with , it's a bait. could eat some hits, but couldn't do much in return.
----- : I had Ancient Power in an attempt to deal with . My most fond memory was when an opposing used Ancient Power on it, cleanly OHKOing it. I think that was the last time I ever used this team.
- - - - - : I had Z-Stone Edge with Wish to constantly keep it healthy. Hazards became a problem since isn't a great Defogger, but I needed it. Once was weak, easily overwhelms this team.

----- : Volt Switch OHKOS 75% of the time. Should be good enough, right? Problem, people aren't dumb, they'y not keeping on . They will switch to or , which causes problems. Do I click Volt Switch predicting a stay-in? Do I click Focus Blast predicting ? Or HP Ice for ? This is unhealthy. I even have Ancient Power in hopes they don't have Ancient Power on their one. Worked alright.

So in my experience is an absolute pain to teambuild against, resulting in me using obscure baits or worse movesets on Pokemon that would appreciate other moves.

Final Verdict
's combination of a vicious Weather Ball thanks to its sky-high Sp. Atk and Drought, nearly perfect coverage in Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Focus Blast and Ancient Power allowing it to pick its checks, Roost for longetivity and near perfect synergy with most Sun abusers makes it to constricting in teambuilding, which is unhealthy. Thus, it should be BANNED.

Please say something if you have any thoughts. Is this post too long? Yes. This might get deleted.​

We don't delete posts for being too long, but please stop with the spam in posts. It doesn't make reading the post any easier and it some cases it's harder.

 

[spray226]

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
- Synthesis

Guys this Mega Venusaur set can wall Mega Charizard Y weather ball with leech seed and synthesis under sun (if they dont have air slash) its really good tank pokemon too yall should try

 

[altifying]

Yeah I agree Zard Y is stupid af. Even the supposed "checks" in the lati twins is taking 50% from fireblast. Only thing holding it back is its speed tier.

 

[Hittite Jumpscare]

We don't delete posts for being too long, but please stop with the spam in posts. It doesn't make reading the post any easier and it some cases it's harder.

Sorry, didn't know.

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
- Synthesis

Guys this Mega Venusaur set can wall Mega Charizard Y weather ball with leech seed and synthesis under sun (if they dont have air slash) its really good tank pokemon too yall should try

Funnily enough Weather Ball and Air Slash deal the same damage to MVenu. It's not good, and after the Leech Seed, I think the Zard user will know to switch.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah I agree Zard Y is stupid af. Even the supposed "checks" in the lati twins is taking 50% from fireblast. Only thing holding it back is its speed tier.

I completely forgot about Fire Blast lol, that makes Zard even more uncheckable, though Weather Ball is so much more consistent. Still, Fire Blast is an option.

 

[spray226]

Sorry, didn't know.

Funnily enough Weather Ball and Air Slash deal the same damage to MVenu. It's not good, and after the Leech Seed, I think the Zard user will know to switch.
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I completely forgot about Fire Blast lol, that makes Zard even more uncheckable, though Weather Ball is so much more consistent. Still, Fire Blast is an option.

U can abuse the fact that Charizard Y spawns sun to have synthesis heal you for 75%, you can stall the sun and force charizard to switch and when they do u can leech seed a upcoming pokemon or throw a damaging move or switch to another pokemon

Air slash is worse cuz flinch chance (2hko)

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

CHARIZARD - MEGA - Y MEGA RANT
I would like to rant about how is a problem and should probably be banned. I'm sure this has been said before, but I'd like to input my thoughts on it.

My main issue with this Pokemon is that it is too good of a wall breaker (and Pokemon in general) and has no real counters in this metagame. With a powerful Drought ability to create nukes of Weather Balls, and almost perfect coverage with Solar Beam for the pesky Waters and Rocks that resists its Weather Balls, as well as extra coverage with several other moves, and reliable recovery too with Roost, it's is very hard to overcome this threat. There is nothing complex about its overbearing presence, it just doesn't have any checks/counters.
I'll do this simply enough by listing would-be checks from what I can think of. Tell me if there's any more.

The Good

Pros:
Resists both Solar Beam and Weather Ball, and can OHKO with Outrage/Z-Outrage thanks to Protosynthesis boost in the Sun set up by itself. Should be good enough.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 327-385 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Only if that is 252 atk 252 speed . That is 62.4% of all sets though, so should be fine.
However, there are a few things.
1. Weather Ball still does a massive chunk to Roaring Moon, even without hazard support.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as mentioned before, bulky Roaring Moon is not common, so good luck.
2. If switches in on Scorching Sands, there is a 30% chance of it getting burned, severely weakening it.
252 Atk Protosynthesis burned Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 163-192 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. It isn't uncommon for to run Focus Blast instead of Scorching Sands as a way to hit other would-be counters (which will be shown later). A predict by the user would result in getting very closed to OHKO'd, or straight-up OHKO'd. With rocks it's even worse.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even a far-out option, 37.6% of all s run it. The fact that might get banned also doesn't help its case.


Pros:
In my opinion is probably the best option against . It shrugs off all of its attacks and can reliably set-up Toxic against it. It's most common set is max Sp. Def at 14% usage, and the next 35.9% of sets run some sort of Sp. Def investment. Regenerator and Recover allow to repeatedly come in on too.
Cons:
Scorching Sands 3HKOs , and has 16 PP, so it can either PP stall out Recover PP, or severely dent it.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And yes, while 59.8% of all do run Toxic, there is a very solid chance that they're running T-Spikes instead. If so, then Toxapex can't really touch with Scald, because remember, Drought halves water attack moves and it also has Roost.
0 SpA Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 44-54 (14.8 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Burn chance from Scorching Sands doesn't have too. Still, very solid.


Pros:
Resists all commons options on , especially so with Multiscale. In fact, thanks to that ability, most s are 3HKO'd by most things throws at it, and thus can safely set-up. Common Z-Moves and Outrage OHKO at +1 attack. It can also avoid burns from Scorching Sands thanks to its Flying type.
+1 252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 367-433 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk :Dragonite Supersonic: Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 535-630 (180.1 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
If it's a , all chill. But Z-Moves are where it gets icky. Due to the limitations of Z-Crystals, will lose 25% of its health if rocks are up. Then that messes everything up.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-167 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, a 2HKO. Sp. Def usage is also only 3.5% usage, so yeah, good luck.
Banded E-Speed also doesn't OHKO , so tough luck.
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 180-212 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pros:
Unlike other previous checks/"counters", bulky is a fairly common choice, being 10.2% of all of them. Offensive s aren't bad too, they can stomach one hit before OHKOing with a Z-Move/Stone Edge, or do massive damage at the very least.
252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 240-283 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 379-447 (127.6 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Offensive s can't leave repeated hits from
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 174-205 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And while bulky s can live more hits, it's slower, thus has to eat more hits, which overall is more. helps negate this however, and Toxic + Dragon Tail + Rocks is troublesome for the user. Good luck if you don't have a bulky though.

Pros:
All four resist 's moves and has reliable recovery with Roost/Recover. Even regular , the least bulky of the bunch, is very likely to survive :charizards-mega-y:'s Weather Ball.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
After the switch-in, the forms can use it as set-up fodder or the forms can hit very hard with Draco Meteor/Psychic Moves.
Cons:
Pretty specific Pokemon, but that's about it.

Pros:
Like , 's Protosynthesis is really a thorn for . And while it does underspeed it, 's STAB Electric Priority move Thunderclap solves that problem.
252 SpA Protosynthesis Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A pretty common Pokemon too.
Cons:
The most common set cannot switch-in on a Scorching Sands.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 196-232 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:assult-vest: helps and is common, but then is prone to hazards, and is still 3HKO'd even without them.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest : 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thunderclap mindgames can also prove deadly for the user, if they click anything other than Thunderclap, does get the KO.


Pros:
is a pretty interesting option. Thanks to its Sand Stream ability, it can override 's Drought, weakening Weather Ball and effectively halving Solar Beam, as well as boosting its own Sp. Def by 1.5x. While is more offensive leaning and has a straight-up BST buff, regular can hold an or any berries for extra defence. STAB Stone Edge OHKOs even if they get a burn with Scorching Sands.
252+ Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 342-404 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 58-70 (14.3 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD in Sand: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Cons:
While the forms don't mind getting burned against specifically, they will mind for the rest of the game. Also, while Scorching Sands can be ignored, Focus Blast can definitely not be ignored.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD : in Sand: 348-412 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
One smart predict and it's basically a gone .



Pros:
Has an amazing typing and bulk spread against . Bulletproof negates Weather Ball and Focus Blast, it resists Solar Beam, can shrug off Scorching Sands and burn since it's usually a Sp. Attacker, and can threaten heavy damage with Z-Clangorous Soul and its omniboost.
252 SpA Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 223-264 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 85-101 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO
Cons:
Not much, just a very specific Pokemon in general.

The Bad

No. Just no.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD in Sun: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You'd think the ability would help here. No, it does not. It's a 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Shell in Sun: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even with max Sp. Def + HP and an , Solar Beam still has a chance to 2HKO. Even better with rocks. Just pray to get low rolls.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

needs the to stand a chance against . It can't do much damage however unless you run an inferior moveset with Power Gem, which then you're missing out on a move. Also, they could just predict the switch-in and use Solar Beam so Scorching Sands can just 2HKO if it's Sp. Def . However, ff it is Sp. Def. then Power Gem doesn't even guarantee an OHKO.
0 SpA Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And if it's offensive , Scorching Sands just OHKOs.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 340-400 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Focus Blast on a Sp. Def 2HKOs.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD : 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD in Sun: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(In return can't 3HKO in time)
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD : 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

This is where the legendary Ancient Power tech, the 60 BP rock move, comes into play. While the mirror match is interesting, is just a sad case.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 248-292 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Sp. Def (not even the most common set) gets 2HKO'd, the mirror match is pretty much a gamble. 21.2% of all s carry Ancient Power, and since it's a speed tie, it's basically a 10% chance that either one of the s survives and the other doesn't. This unpredictability makes it so damn volatile.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Some would think rain changing 's Weather Ball into a STABless water move would help out, right? No.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD in Rain: 121-143 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD : 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 163-192 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD : 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Best bet is to safely get onto the field and click Electro Shot. Problem? can delay its mega to whenever it wants to so it can override rain in the middle, thus disrupting so much stuff.


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 205-243 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Ugly
These are weird interactions that I can't really say if it's positive for the user or not.

Following the footsteps of and , here we have levitating Dragon Pokemon with roost! But in all seriousness, all these Pokemon need heavy bulk investment to stomach any hits. Let's start off with
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 155-183 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
It underspeeds and gets practically 2HKO'd by Weather Ball. Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO if it's .
252+ SpA Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Onto ! It CAN switch in on one Solar Beam/Weather Ball and OHKO with Scarf Stone Edge, but it's still a 2HKO if there's no bulk, and Stone Edge is notoriously unreliable, so 20% of times goes out.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 170-201 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is only here because I saw it on a team in the NatDex OU Bazaar. Click here to see. Reached Top 8 on the ladder, damn impressive.


All great Sp. Def walls, but these two are almost exclusively stall Pokemon, and excels in crushing/breaking stall, so you have to keep these two pink blobs constantly healthy.


can survive a Scorching Sands thanks to its great natural bulk even with rocks up, and can practically OHKO with Bolt Strike. Problem: takes massive chip. Is this worth it? This goes to all other Pokemon that can OHKO and can safely switch in once.


Haha really funny, Sturdy Mirror Coat/Metal Burst/ be funny, haha. No. Rocks.


A very common lead match-up is against , where can mega evole and OHKO with Diamond Storm. However, like Victini, can it eat a hit? Also, what if they have a lead instead? Thus, is a weird check/counter/thing.
Any Problems with Itself?
Cons:
Of course, is not without its flaws.
1. It is a 4x rock weak Pokemon that cannot hold . Not very good.
2. While not bad, 78 - 78 - 115 bulk can only get you so far in tanking priority moves.
3. While 100 speed is serviceable, it's speedties a lot of other Pokemon, like , and , and underspeeds a lot more, like , , and .
4. Everything listed is a switch-in, so therefore if any Pokemon gets a safe switch-in, it can force out and set up rocks or set-up, something like that.
5. 4MSS. can't carry Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power all in one slot, so if you have a check/counter to its most common move (scorching sands), you should be good.

Pros:
However, this is just . I believe one of the more dangerous aspects about it is that how it enables so much teammates that cover its weaknesses and many more. Thus, if its teammates are alive, it kinda has none.
The fact that it has no reliable switch-ins other than stall staples and random Dragon types says a lot too.
Also thanks to Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power, it can pick and choose counters. This creates unhealthy decision making during games, and sometimes results in gambles that they don't have moves, and if you predicted wrong, you are punished HARD. This is inherently unhealthy.

Teammates

practically has perfect synergy with . Not only it deals with a lot of checks/counters of it, but it has Protosynthesis to give it an attack/speed boost in the sun set up by itself, and Rapid Spin to deal with any hazards on field. It's typing also offers a lot of switch-in options. In return nukes physical walls that could handle , like and .

Deals With:



This could get banned soon, so I would advise to read this section with a bit of salt. Either way, either choice locked or set-up, is a menace in sun, and greatly helps with . Basically for all the same reasons with , except it's far more offensive.

Deals with: (kinda)



Another past paradox Pokemon! Protosynthesis boosts offence, yada yada, deals with threats too with strong Electric/Dragon STAB.
Deals with: (kinda)


Finally a non-Paradox Pokemon! With double speed from 's drought, can punch holes in pesky rocks/waters/grounds that could otherwise survive . With Earth Power, Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball, it can pick and choose its counters.
Deals with:
Hold Up!
Aren't I just listing common sun Pokemon? Am I saying that Drought should be banned instead of ? Wouldn't this be the same with or ? Why am I picking on Game Freak's child so much?
The issue is, is nowhere near or . It is simply better.
Let's give a useful analogy. in Gen 9 UU is a pretty similar case. What led to its ban is how its Grassy Terrain teams ravaged the UU landscape, enabling threats such as unburden , , , , and other low-tier picks. While the fact that the terrain/weather setter can pack a punch (though 's grass STAB is so much worse than 's Weather Ball), the fact that it can so easily activate other threats thanks to its ability is what makes it so menacing.
So all of a sudden you aren't just preparing for . You also have to prepare for , , and , or any combo of those, or any other lower-tier abusers, or even all 4 and more! The restrictions this puts on teambuilding in my opinion is wholly unhealthy.
And yes, and enables the exact same Pokemon, but the main difference is is a good Pokemon by itself. While you have to keep constant support to keep and alive for drought, needs minimal support to do its job. The fact that nothing wants to switch in onto it also makes teambuilding even WORSE. This is how like when was used after was banned, Grass Terrain teams suddenly became so much more manageable. Thus, is the problem, not Drought.
Personal Experience
Now let's speak from my perspective on the horrors of .
Whenever I try teambuilding, the first question that comes to me is What can I do to deal with ? and the issue is that I barely have any answers. Below are some ways on how I had to try to deal with it with varying success.
----- : HP Rock to bait in . Worked pretty well! Problem, it was a bait.
----- : I had offensive with Power Gem. Worked pretty well, but I had to keep up its so much, and once I switched-in on a solar beam and then it died. Not fun.
----- : with HP Rock to bait in . Same problems with , it's a bait. could eat some hits, but couldn't do much in return.
----- : I had Ancient Power in an attempt to deal with . My most fond memory was when an opposing used Ancient Power on it, cleanly OHKOing it. I think that was the last time I ever used this team.
- - - - - : I had Z-Stone Edge with Wish to constantly keep it healthy. Hazards became a problem since isn't a great Defogger, but I needed it. Once was weak, easily overwhelms this team.

----- : Volt Switch OHKOS 75% of the time. Should be good enough, right? Problem, people aren't dumb, they'y not keeping on . They will switch to or , which causes problems. Do I click Volt Switch predicting a stay-in? Do I click Focus Blast predicting ? Or HP Ice for ? This is unhealthy. I even have Ancient Power in hopes they don't have Ancient Power on their one. Worked alright.

So in my experience is an absolute pain to teambuild against, resulting in me using obscure baits or worse movesets on Pokemon that would appreciate other moves.

Final Verdict
's combination of a vicious Weather Ball thanks to its sky-high Sp. Atk and Drought, nearly perfect coverage in Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Focus Blast and Ancient Power allowing it to pick its checks, Roost for longetivity and near perfect synergy with most Sun abusers makes it to constricting in teambuilding, which is unhealthy. Thus, it should be BANNED.

Please say something if you have any thoughts. Is this post too long? Yes. This might get deleted.​

Not to be that guy but isn't the whole counterplay faster mons that pressure ZardY out and annoy it with rocks? An obvious elephant in the room is but I do agree that ZardY does have the potential to rip through slower teams

 

[Moyashi]

CHARIZARD - MEGA - Y MEGA RANT
I would like to rant about how is a problem and should probably be banned. I'm sure this has been said before, but I'd like to input my thoughts on it.

My main issue with this Pokemon is that it is too good of a wall breaker (and Pokemon in general) and has no real counters in this metagame. With a powerful Drought ability to create nukes of Weather Balls, and almost perfect coverage with Solar Beam for the pesky Waters and Rocks that resists its Weather Balls, as well as extra coverage with several other moves, and reliable recovery too with Roost, it's is very hard to overcome this threat. There is nothing complex about its overbearing presence, it just doesn't have any checks/counters.
I'll do this simply enough by listing would-be checks from what I can think of. Tell me if there's any more.

The Good

Pros:
Resists both Solar Beam and Weather Ball, and can OHKO with Outrage/Z-Outrage thanks to Protosynthesis boost in the Sun set up by itself. Should be good enough.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 327-385 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Only if that is 252 atk 252 speed . That is 62.4% of all sets though, so should be fine.
However, there are a few things.
1. Weather Ball still does a massive chunk to Roaring Moon, even without hazard support.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as mentioned before, bulky Roaring Moon is not common, so good luck.
2. If switches in on Scorching Sands, there is a 30% chance of it getting burned, severely weakening it.
252 Atk Protosynthesis burned Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 163-192 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. It isn't uncommon for to run Focus Blast instead of Scorching Sands as a way to hit other would-be counters (which will be shown later). A predict by the user would result in getting very closed to OHKO'd, or straight-up OHKO'd. With rocks it's even worse.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even a far-out option, 37.6% of all s run it. The fact that might get banned also doesn't help its case.


Pros:
In my opinion is probably the best option against . It shrugs off all of its attacks and can reliably set-up Toxic against it. It's most common set is max Sp. Def at 14% usage, and the next 35.9% of sets run some sort of Sp. Def investment. Regenerator and Recover allow to repeatedly come in on too.
Cons:
Scorching Sands 3HKOs , and has 16 PP, so it can either PP stall out Recover PP, or severely dent it.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And yes, while 59.8% of all do run Toxic, there is a very solid chance that they're running T-Spikes instead. If so, then Toxapex can't really touch with Scald, because remember, Drought halves water attack moves and it also has Roost.
0 SpA Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 44-54 (14.8 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Burn chance from Scorching Sands doesn't have too. Still, very solid.


Pros:
Resists all commons options on , especially so with Multiscale. In fact, thanks to that ability, most s are 3HKO'd by most things throws at it, and thus can safely set-up. Common Z-Moves and Outrage OHKO at +1 attack. It can also avoid burns from Scorching Sands thanks to its Flying type.
+1 252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 367-433 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk :Dragonite Supersonic: Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 535-630 (180.1 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
If it's a , all chill. But Z-Moves are where it gets icky. Due to the limitations of Z-Crystals, will lose 25% of its health if rocks are up. Then that messes everything up.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-167 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, a 2HKO. Sp. Def usage is also only 3.5% usage, so yeah, good luck.
Banded E-Speed also doesn't OHKO , so tough luck.
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 180-212 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pros:
Unlike other previous checks/"counters", bulky is a fairly common choice, being 10.2% of all of them. Offensive s aren't bad too, they can stomach one hit before OHKOing with a Z-Move/Stone Edge, or do massive damage at the very least.
252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 240-283 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 379-447 (127.6 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Offensive s can't leave repeated hits from
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 174-205 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And while bulky s can live more hits, it's slower, thus has to eat more hits, which overall is more. helps negate this however, and Toxic + Dragon Tail + Rocks is troublesome for the user. Good luck if you don't have a bulky though.

Pros:
All four resist 's moves and has reliable recovery with Roost/Recover. Even regular , the least bulky of the bunch, is very likely to survive :charizards-mega-y:'s Weather Ball.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
After the switch-in, the forms can use it as set-up fodder or the forms can hit very hard with Draco Meteor/Psychic Moves.
Cons:
Pretty specific Pokemon, but that's about it.

Pros:
Like , 's Protosynthesis is really a thorn for . And while it does underspeed it, 's STAB Electric Priority move Thunderclap solves that problem.
252 SpA Protosynthesis Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A pretty common Pokemon too.
Cons:
The most common set cannot switch-in on a Scorching Sands.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 196-232 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:assult-vest: helps and is common, but then is prone to hazards, and is still 3HKO'd even without them.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest : 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thunderclap mindgames can also prove deadly for the user, if they click anything other than Thunderclap, does get the KO.


Pros:
is a pretty interesting option. Thanks to its Sand Stream ability, it can override 's Drought, weakening Weather Ball and effectively halving Solar Beam, as well as boosting its own Sp. Def by 1.5x. While is more offensive leaning and has a straight-up BST buff, regular can hold an or any berries for extra defence. STAB Stone Edge OHKOs even if they get a burn with Scorching Sands.
252+ Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 342-404 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 58-70 (14.3 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD in Sand: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Cons:
While the forms don't mind getting burned against specifically, they will mind for the rest of the game. Also, while Scorching Sands can be ignored, Focus Blast can definitely not be ignored.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD : in Sand: 348-412 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
One smart predict and it's basically a gone .



Pros:
Has an amazing typing and bulk spread against . Bulletproof negates Weather Ball and Focus Blast, it resists Solar Beam, can shrug off Scorching Sands and burn since it's usually a Sp. Attacker, and can threaten heavy damage with Z-Clangorous Soul and its omniboost.
252 SpA Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 223-264 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 85-101 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO
Cons:
Not much, just a very specific Pokemon in general.

The Bad

No. Just no.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD in Sun: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You'd think the ability would help here. No, it does not. It's a 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Shell in Sun: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even with max Sp. Def + HP and an , Solar Beam still has a chance to 2HKO. Even better with rocks. Just pray to get low rolls.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

needs the to stand a chance against . It can't do much damage however unless you run an inferior moveset with Power Gem, which then you're missing out on a move. Also, they could just predict the switch-in and use Solar Beam so Scorching Sands can just 2HKO if it's Sp. Def . However, ff it is Sp. Def. then Power Gem doesn't even guarantee an OHKO.
0 SpA Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And if it's offensive , Scorching Sands just OHKOs.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 340-400 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Focus Blast on a Sp. Def 2HKOs.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD : 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD in Sun: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(In return can't 3HKO in time)
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD : 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

This is where the legendary Ancient Power tech, the 60 BP rock move, comes into play. While the mirror match is interesting, is just a sad case.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 248-292 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Sp. Def (not even the most common set) gets 2HKO'd, the mirror match is pretty much a gamble. 21.2% of all s carry Ancient Power, and since it's a speed tie, it's basically a 10% chance that either one of the s survives and the other doesn't. This unpredictability makes it so damn volatile.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Some would think rain changing 's Weather Ball into a STABless water move would help out, right? No.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD in Rain: 121-143 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD : 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 163-192 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD : 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Best bet is to safely get onto the field and click Electro Shot. Problem? can delay its mega to whenever it wants to so it can override rain in the middle, thus disrupting so much stuff.


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 205-243 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Ugly
These are weird interactions that I can't really say if it's positive for the user or not.

Following the footsteps of and , here we have levitating Dragon Pokemon with roost! But in all seriousness, all these Pokemon need heavy bulk investment to stomach any hits. Let's start off with
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 155-183 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
It underspeeds and gets practically 2HKO'd by Weather Ball. Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO if it's .
252+ SpA Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Onto ! It CAN switch in on one Solar Beam/Weather Ball and OHKO with Scarf Stone Edge, but it's still a 2HKO if there's no bulk, and Stone Edge is notoriously unreliable, so 20% of times goes out.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 170-201 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is only here because I saw it on a team in the NatDex OU Bazaar. Click here to see. Reached Top 8 on the ladder, damn impressive.


All great Sp. Def walls, but these two are almost exclusively stall Pokemon, and excels in crushing/breaking stall, so you have to keep these two pink blobs constantly healthy.


can survive a Scorching Sands thanks to its great natural bulk even with rocks up, and can practically OHKO with Bolt Strike. Problem: takes massive chip. Is this worth it? This goes to all other Pokemon that can OHKO and can safely switch in once.


Haha really funny, Sturdy Mirror Coat/Metal Burst/ be funny, haha. No. Rocks.


A very common lead match-up is against , where can mega evole and OHKO with Diamond Storm. However, like Victini, can it eat a hit? Also, what if they have a lead instead? Thus, is a weird check/counter/thing.
Any Problems with Itself?
Cons:
Of course, is not without its flaws.
1. It is a 4x rock weak Pokemon that cannot hold . Not very good.
2. While not bad, 78 - 78 - 115 bulk can only get you so far in tanking priority moves.
3. While 100 speed is serviceable, it's speedties a lot of other Pokemon, like , and , and underspeeds a lot more, like , , and .
4. Everything listed is a switch-in, so therefore if any Pokemon gets a safe switch-in, it can force out and set up rocks or set-up, something like that.
5. 4MSS. can't carry Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power all in one slot, so if you have a check/counter to its most common move (scorching sands), you should be good.

Pros:
However, this is just . I believe one of the more dangerous aspects about it is that how it enables so much teammates that cover its weaknesses and many more. Thus, if its teammates are alive, it kinda has none.
The fact that it has no reliable switch-ins other than stall staples and random Dragon types says a lot too.
Also thanks to Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power, it can pick and choose counters. This creates unhealthy decision making during games, and sometimes results in gambles that they don't have moves, and if you predicted wrong, you are punished HARD. This is inherently unhealthy.

Teammates

practically has perfect synergy with . Not only it deals with a lot of checks/counters of it, but it has Protosynthesis to give it an attack/speed boost in the sun set up by itself, and Rapid Spin to deal with any hazards on field. It's typing also offers a lot of switch-in options. In return nukes physical walls that could handle , like and .

Deals With:



This could get banned soon, so I would advise to read this section with a bit of salt. Either way, either choice locked or set-up, is a menace in sun, and greatly helps with . Basically for all the same reasons with , except it's far more offensive.

Deals with: (kinda)



Another past paradox Pokemon! Protosynthesis boosts offence, yada yada, deals with threats too with strong Electric/Dragon STAB.
Deals with: (kinda)


Finally a non-Paradox Pokemon! With double speed from 's drought, can punch holes in pesky rocks/waters/grounds that could otherwise survive . With Earth Power, Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball, it can pick and choose its counters.
Deals with:
Hold Up!
Aren't I just listing common sun Pokemon? Am I saying that Drought should be banned instead of ? Wouldn't this be the same with or ? Why am I picking on Game Freak's child so much?
The issue is, is nowhere near or . It is simply better.
Let's give a useful analogy. in Gen 9 UU is a pretty similar case. What led to its ban is how its Grassy Terrain teams ravaged the UU landscape, enabling threats such as unburden , , , , and other low-tier picks. While the fact that the terrain/weather setter can pack a punch (though 's grass STAB is so much worse than 's Weather Ball), the fact that it can so easily activate other threats thanks to its ability is what makes it so menacing.
So all of a sudden you aren't just preparing for . You also have to prepare for , , and , or any combo of those, or any other lower-tier abusers, or even all 4 and more! The restrictions this puts on teambuilding in my opinion is wholly unhealthy.
And yes, and enables the exact same Pokemon, but the main difference is is a good Pokemon by itself. While you have to keep constant support to keep and alive for drought, needs minimal support to do its job. The fact that nothing wants to switch in onto it also makes teambuilding even WORSE. This is how like when was used after was banned, Grass Terrain teams suddenly became so much more manageable. Thus, is the problem, not Drought.
Personal Experience
Now let's speak from my perspective on the horrors of .
Whenever I try teambuilding, the first question that comes to me is What can I do to deal with ? and the issue is that I barely have any answers. Below are some ways on how I had to try to deal with it with varying success.
----- : HP Rock to bait in . Worked pretty well! Problem, it was a bait.
----- : I had offensive with Power Gem. Worked pretty well, but I had to keep up its so much, and once I switched-in on a solar beam and then it died. Not fun.
----- : with HP Rock to bait in . Same problems with , it's a bait. could eat some hits, but couldn't do much in return.
----- : I had Ancient Power in an attempt to deal with . My most fond memory was when an opposing used Ancient Power on it, cleanly OHKOing it. I think that was the last time I ever used this team.
- - - - - : I had Z-Stone Edge with Wish to constantly keep it healthy. Hazards became a problem since isn't a great Defogger, but I needed it. Once was weak, easily overwhelms this team.

----- : Volt Switch OHKOS 75% of the time. Should be good enough, right? Problem, people aren't dumb, they'y not keeping on . They will switch to or , which causes problems. Do I click Volt Switch predicting a stay-in? Do I click Focus Blast predicting ? Or HP Ice for ? This is unhealthy. I even have Ancient Power in hopes they don't have Ancient Power on their one. Worked alright.

So in my experience is an absolute pain to teambuild against, resulting in me using obscure baits or worse movesets on Pokemon that would appreciate other moves.

Final Verdict
's combination of a vicious Weather Ball thanks to its sky-high Sp. Atk and Drought, nearly perfect coverage in Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Focus Blast and Ancient Power allowing it to pick its checks, Roost for longetivity and near perfect synergy with most Sun abusers makes it to constricting in teambuilding, which is unhealthy. Thus, it should be BANNED.

Please say something if you have any thoughts. Is this post too long? Yes. This might get deleted.​

ZardY hasn't even been near the peak it was at initially earlier after tera was banned so I'm a bit confused. ZardY teams are structure that lack much defensive backbone and tend to be pretty rigid if they DO want some kind of defensive security (ie slotting in Slowbro for example). ZardY also requires a high amount of hazard control since rocks otherwise deter it significantly.

Checks wise, Toxapex is top tier and is very good into it. Scorching Sands 3HKOing is a point against ZardY, as it will never beat Pex before toxic wears it down to death and thus is pressured into switching out to avoid the status. Mega Latios is a very good offensive check to ZardY that isn't specific at all, and in fact is a great choice in the current meta game. Spdef Moltres sits on ZardY and threatens Toxic. And no one seriously is going to risk wasting a moveslot for Ancient Power just for Moltres, let alone opposing ZardY when a mirror simply isnt nearly common enough to justify it. If you wanted to hit Moltres, you'd just run air slash which can flinch potentially cheesing past.

For HO and general offense Mega Diancie practically 6-0s ZardY teams as they don't really have anything that can handle it and it out speeds their whole structure barring Roaring Moon which obviously can't switch in safely. And ZardY teams certainly aren't fitting Venusaur when that only functions even somewhat on full sun. It won't function at all efficiently on a meager amount of sun turns.

Stuff like Tapu Koko is very bad for ZardY teams as well, out speeding even Moon and threatening huge damage if not KOs outright. For bulkiet teams, having hard checks like Pex and then using smart play to draw different moves for a faster teammate to switch into helps a lot as well.

Personally I haven't found ZardY to be anywhere near an issue after the initial wave of hype died down and while it's still great, it feels just fine in the tier.

 

[Comett7778]

While yes Zard-Y is very good it struggles into the fat hazard stack, offense, and HO that are prevalent right now. Double removal or a hat feels like a necessity due to the prevalence of hazards.

Fat hazard stack usually has Spdef Gliscor + Pex to handle Zard-Y while also being able to keep hazards up. I’ve often used Clef to keep hazards up and Ko tusk if it wants to spin.

Offense/HO is pretty straightforward. Zard-Y and friends can’t keep up with the momentum due to lack of defense. They often crumple to a booster moon, or sub swarm Z volc. Even Z Dnite can break through well enough. As well as being able to easily force Zard-y and friends out easily.

This style of sun is currently the only sun team I feel is maybe too much right now. Seen a similar one with CM Hat and Iron Crown do well. Still has the same issue I previously said just less so.

 

[Hittite Jumpscare]

U can abuse the fact that Charizard Y spawns sun to have synthesis heal you for 75%, you can stall the sun and force charizard to switch and when they do u can leech seed a upcoming pokemon or throw a damaging move or switch to another pokemon

Air slash is worse cuz flinch chance (2hko)

Fair point, but the fact that MVenu can't switch-in is a massive bummer, and the main reason why I want it banned. You'd either have to sack another Pokemon or heavily damage another to get it in before MVenu can do anything.

Not to be that guy but isn't the whole counterplay faster mons that pressure ZardY out and annoy it with rocks? An obvious elephant in the room is but I do agree that ZardY does have the potential to rip through slower teams

My issue with that is Koko simply can't switch-in on Zard Y. Like with that MVenu set, either a Pokemon has to be sacked or heavily damaged before it can come in. Common teammates of Zard-Y also handily stop Koko, like and in higher ladder.

ZardY hasn't even been near the peak it was at initially earlier after tera was banned so I'm a bit confused. ZardY teams are structure that lack much defensive backbone and tend to be pretty rigid if they DO want some kind of defensive security (ie slotting in Slowbro for example). ZardY also requires a high amount of hazard control since rocks otherwise deter it significantly.

Checks wise, Toxapex is top tier and is very good into it. Scorching Sands 3HKOing is a point against ZardY, as it will never beat Pex before toxic wears it down to death and thus is pressured into switching out to avoid the status. Mega Latios is a very good offensive check to ZardY that isn't specific at all, and in fact is a great choice in the current meta game. Spdef Moltres sits on ZardY and threatens Toxic. And no one seriously is going to risk wasting a moveslot for Ancient Power just for Moltres, let alone opposing ZardY when a mirror simply isnt nearly common enough to justify it. If you wanted to hit Moltres, you'd just run air slash which can flinch potentially cheesing past.

For HO and general offense Mega Diancie practically 6-0s ZardY teams as they don't really have anything that can handle it and it out speeds their whole structure barring Roaring Moon which obviously can't switch in safely. And ZardY teams certainly aren't fitting Venusaur when that only functions even somewhat on full sun. It won't function at all efficiently on a meager amount of sun turns.

Stuff like Tapu Koko is very bad for ZardY teams as well, out speeding even Moon and threatening huge damage if not KOs outright. For bulkiet teams, having hard checks like Pex and then using smart play to draw different moves for a faster teammate to switch into helps a lot as well.

Personally I haven't found ZardY to be anywhere near an issue after the initial wave of hype died down and while it's still great, it feels just fine in the tier.

I appreciate this long response, and there are a bunch of great points, but most are pretty easily rebuked.

1. I don't think Hazard control is too big of an issue for Zard teams. Great Tusk is basically on half on all Zard teams, and it can easily get off spin. The few relevant ghost types a scared of its ground STAB ( and ), and with scarf Dengo, it fears Zard's weather balls.
2. Yeah, Toxapex is a good counter, though it must be wary of Bolts that appear quite often.
3. Mega Latios is also a good counter, though it must take quite the damage from Weather Ball, a 50% chance of a 2HKO with rocks up. Also, it doesn't help Draco doesn't OHKO Zard. Luster Purge is a fine option though. More often than not you'd want to pivot it in rather than raw switch-in, and that would result in either a sacked mon or a heavily damaged mon.
4. You don't know how much Zard players would do to snipe any possible counters. Ancient Power is averagely on ~15% of all Zards, so yes, people will waste a moveslot on it. Besides, other than Toxic, what else is the Molt going to do? The fact that Charizard doesn't need to stay in field for long makes it only annoying in most cases. I ge these stats from MunchStats in case you wanted to know where I got these numbers.
5. Yeah I guess I was overplaying a bit too much. But other common teammates for Zard - Y like Alo and Lando comfortably deal with fair enough. Though not much Pokemon can handle Diancie in the first place imo.
6. Like with HunterNeverHere9, you bring up the excellent point that any Pokemon that can outspeed Zard can deal with it easily. Problem is, you can't switch it in directly. So either a Pokemon must be sacked or heavily damaged to bring it in. That is not healthy.
7. I apologise for not making it clear enough in my initial post (and misleading, cause of the intro), the greatest issue about Zard is how nothing wants to switch-in onto it, and thus makes getting the check in a chore.

TLDR : Pex + Latios are good. Fair point. Koko and other fast threats can't get in without casualties. Main problem.

 

[Moyashi]

I appreciate this long response, and there are a bunch of great points, but most are pretty easily rebuked.

1. I don't think Hazard control is too big of an issue for Zard teams. Great Tusk is basically on half on all Zard teams, and it can easily get off spin. The few relevant ghost types a scared of its ground STAB ( and ), and with scarf Dengo, it fears Zard's weather balls.
2. Yeah, Toxapex is a good counter, though it must be wary of Bolts that appear quite often.
3. Mega Latios is also a good counter, though it must take quite the damage from Weather Ball, a 50% chance of a 2HKO with rocks up. Also, it doesn't help Draco doesn't OHKO Zard. Luster Purge is a fine option though. More often than not you'd want to pivot it in rather than raw switch-in, and that would result in either a sacked mon or a heavily damaged mon.
4. You don't know how much Zard players would do to snipe any possible counters. Ancient Power is averagely on ~15% of all Zards, so yes, people will waste a moveslot on it. Besides, other than Toxic, what else is the Molt going to do? The fact that Charizard doesn't need to stay in field for long makes it only annoying in most cases. I ge these stats from MunchStats in case you wanted to know where I got these numbers.
5. Yeah I guess I was overplaying a bit too much. But other common teammates for Zard - Y like Alo and Lando comfortably deal with fair enough. Though not much Pokemon can handle Diancie in the first place imo.
6. Like with HunterNeverHere9, you bring up the excellent point that any Pokemon that can outspeed Zard can deal with it easily. Problem is, you can't switch it in directly. So either a Pokemon must be sacked or heavily damaged to bring it in. That is not healthy.
7. I apologise for not making it clear enough in my initial post (and misleading, cause of the intro), the greatest issue about Zard is how nothing wants to switch-in onto it, and thus makes getting the check in a chore.

TLDR : Pex + Latios are good. Fair point. Koko and other fast threats can't get in without casualties. Main problem.

Tusk is a good spinner, but it's not at all this impossible to stop spinner that perfectly keeps off rocks and it can have trouble getting time to spin vs even moderately paced teams that relay aggression against it due to its poor defensive typing making direct switch ins hard, and its own poor speed outside sun. It's good don't get me wrong, but there's a very good reason Sun cannot at all rely on it alone for hazard control and requires at minimum 2 mons for the role.

Pex can also just Toxic at Bolt as it tries coming in, not to mention Bolt struggles in the meta right now especially with the increased Ting-Lu presence which stonewalls it. MLatios threatens too much damage for most Zards to want to stay in. They don't generally want to be trying to slug it out because ZardY is such a core part of those teams that if it gets too weak, even weaker hits will pick it off late game or rocks being up will just ensure it's effectively KOd at that point.

ZardY players teching Ancient Power for Moltres doesn't really change the fact that they're running a terrible move that has major opportunity cost in any other match ups, as the move is only useful for Moltres who is a single pokemon in the tier. Plus, ladder also seems to significantly overprepare for Moltres in general for some reason (I've seen all manner of random rock coverage on the most unusual of stuff).

ZardY is potent, but it's arguably less threatening than something like Mega Medicham which has very few defensive answers and mauls teams that don't respect it even worse than ZardY can. Of course, Ghold being #1 means having a check isn't terribly hard but my point stands. ZardY structures have to both build and play a certain way to support it which tends to be a more skill focused gameflow and I honestly appreciate that.

Also as a side note, Pecha is a notable spin blocker in this tier that's been gaining momentum and very much annoys the crap out of Tusk who can't freely spin nearly as easily into it.

 

[Hittite Jumpscare]

Tusk is a good spinner, but it's not at all this impossible to stop spinner that perfectly keeps off rocks and it can have trouble getting time to spin vs even moderately paced teams that relay aggression against it due to its poor defensive typing making direct switch ins hard, and its own poor speed outside sun. It's good don't get me wrong, but there's a very good reason Sun cannot at all rely on it alone for hazard control and requires at minimum 2 mons for the role.

Pex can also just Toxic at Bolt as it tries coming in, not to mention Bolt struggles in the meta right now especially with the increased Ting-Lu presence which stonewalls it. MLatios threatens too much damage for most Zards to want to stay in. They don't generally want to be trying to slug it out because ZardY is such a core part of those teams that if it gets too weak, even weaker hits will pick it off late game or rocks being up will just ensure it's effectively KOd at that point.

ZardY players teching Ancient Power for Moltres doesn't really change the fact that they're running a terrible move that has major opportunity cost in any other match ups, as the move is only useful for Moltres who is a single pokemon in the tier. Plus, ladder also seems to significantly overprepare for Moltres in general for some reason (I've seen all manner of random rock coverage on the most unusual of stuff).

ZardY is potent, but it's arguably less threatening than something like Mega Medicham which has very few defensive answers and mauls teams that don't respect it even worse than ZardY can. Of course, Ghold being #1 means having a check isn't terribly hard but my point stands. ZardY structures have to both build and play a certain way to support it which tends to be a more skill focused gameflow and I honestly appreciate that.

Also as a side note, Pecha is a notable spin blocker in this tier that's been gaining momentum and very much annoys the crap out of Tusk who can't freely spin nearly as easily into it.

Tbh I don't think I'll ever be convinced into thinking that Zard Y isn't bad, and you probably won't ever be convinced Zard Y isn't healthy, so let's just agree to disagree and end off not as enemies.

 

[FirstlyMe]

CHARIZARD - MEGA - Y MEGA RANT
I would like to rant about how is a problem and should probably be banned. I'm sure this has been said before, but I'd like to input my thoughts on it.

My main issue with this Pokemon is that it is too good of a wall breaker (and Pokemon in general) and has no real counters in this metagame. With a powerful Drought ability to create nukes of Weather Balls, and almost perfect coverage with Solar Beam for the pesky Waters and Rocks that resists its Weather Balls, as well as extra coverage with several other moves, and reliable recovery too with Roost, it's is very hard to overcome this threat. There is nothing complex about its overbearing presence, it just doesn't have any checks/counters.
I'll do this simply enough by listing would-be checks from what I can think of. Tell me if there's any more.

The Good

Pros:
Resists both Solar Beam and Weather Ball, and can OHKO with Outrage/Z-Outrage thanks to Protosynthesis boost in the Sun set up by itself. Should be good enough.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 327-385 (110.1 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Only if that is 252 atk 252 speed . That is 62.4% of all sets though, so should be fine.
However, there are a few things.
1. Weather Ball still does a massive chunk to Roaring Moon, even without hazard support.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-166 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And as mentioned before, bulky Roaring Moon is not common, so good luck.
2. If switches in on Scorching Sands, there is a 30% chance of it getting burned, severely weakening it.
252 Atk Protosynthesis burned Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 163-192 (54.8 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. It isn't uncommon for to run Focus Blast instead of Scorching Sands as a way to hit other would-be counters (which will be shown later). A predict by the user would result in getting very closed to OHKO'd, or straight-up OHKO'd. With rocks it's even worse.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even a far-out option, 37.6% of all s run it. The fact that might get banned also doesn't help its case.


Pros:
In my opinion is probably the best option against . It shrugs off all of its attacks and can reliably set-up Toxic against it. It's most common set is max Sp. Def at 14% usage, and the next 35.9% of sets run some sort of Sp. Def investment. Regenerator and Recover allow to repeatedly come in on too.
Cons:
Scorching Sands 3HKOs , and has 16 PP, so it can either PP stall out Recover PP, or severely dent it.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD : 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And yes, while 59.8% of all do run Toxic, there is a very solid chance that they're running T-Spikes instead. If so, then Toxapex can't really touch with Scald, because remember, Drought halves water attack moves and it also has Roost.
0 SpA Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 44-54 (14.8 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
Burn chance from Scorching Sands doesn't have too. Still, very solid.


Pros:
Resists all commons options on , especially so with Multiscale. In fact, thanks to that ability, most s are 3HKO'd by most things throws at it, and thus can safely set-up. Common Z-Moves and Outrage OHKO at +1 attack. It can also avoid burns from Scorching Sands thanks to its Flying type.
+1 252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 367-433 (123.5 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk :Dragonite Supersonic: Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 535-630 (180.1 - 212.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
If it's a , all chill. But Z-Moves are where it gets icky. Due to the limitations of Z-Crystals, will lose 25% of its health if rocks are up. Then that messes everything up.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 141-167 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, a 2HKO. Sp. Def usage is also only 3.5% usage, so yeah, good luck.
Banded E-Speed also doesn't OHKO , so tough luck.
252+ Atk Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 180-212 (60.6 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pros:
Unlike other previous checks/"counters", bulky is a fairly common choice, being 10.2% of all of them. Offensive s aren't bad too, they can stomach one hit before OHKOing with a Z-Move/Stone Edge, or do massive damage at the very least.
252 Atk Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 240-283 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 379-447 (127.6 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cons:
Offensive s can't leave repeated hits from
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 174-205 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And while bulky s can live more hits, it's slower, thus has to eat more hits, which overall is more. helps negate this however, and Toxic + Dragon Tail + Rocks is troublesome for the user. Good luck if you don't have a bulky though.

Pros:
All four resist 's moves and has reliable recovery with Roost/Recover. Even regular , the least bulky of the bunch, is very likely to survive :charizards-mega-y:'s Weather Ball.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD in Sun: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
After the switch-in, the forms can use it as set-up fodder or the forms can hit very hard with Draco Meteor/Psychic Moves.
Cons:
Pretty specific Pokemon, but that's about it.

Pros:
Like , 's Protosynthesis is really a thorn for . And while it does underspeed it, 's STAB Electric Priority move Thunderclap solves that problem.
252 SpA Protosynthesis Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 276-326 (92.9 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A pretty common Pokemon too.
Cons:
The most common set cannot switch-in on a Scorching Sands.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 196-232 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:assult-vest: helps and is common, but then is prone to hazards, and is still 3HKO'd even without them.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest : 132-156 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thunderclap mindgames can also prove deadly for the user, if they click anything other than Thunderclap, does get the KO.


Pros:
is a pretty interesting option. Thanks to its Sand Stream ability, it can override 's Drought, weakening Weather Ball and effectively halving Solar Beam, as well as boosting its own Sp. Def by 1.5x. While is more offensive leaning and has a straight-up BST buff, regular can hold an or any berries for extra defence. STAB Stone Edge OHKOs even if they get a burn with Scorching Sands.
252+ Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 524-618 (176.4 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 Atk burned Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def : 342-404 (115.1 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 58-70 (14.3 - 17.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after burn damage
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD in Sand: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
Cons:
While the forms don't mind getting burned against specifically, they will mind for the rest of the game. Also, while Scorching Sands can be ignored, Focus Blast can definitely not be ignored.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD : in Sand: 348-412 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
One smart predict and it's basically a gone .



Pros:
Has an amazing typing and bulk spread against . Bulletproof negates Weather Ball and Focus Blast, it resists Solar Beam, can shrug off Scorching Sands and burn since it's usually a Sp. Attacker, and can threaten heavy damage with Z-Clangorous Soul and its omniboost.
252 SpA Clangorous Soulblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 223-264 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 85-101 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO
Cons:
Not much, just a very specific Pokemon in general.

The Bad

No. Just no.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD in Sun: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 237-280 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You'd think the ability would help here. No, it does not. It's a 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Shell in Sun: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Even with max Sp. Def + HP and an , Solar Beam still has a chance to 2HKO. Even better with rocks. Just pray to get low rolls.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 232-274 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

needs the to stand a chance against . It can't do much damage however unless you run an inferior moveset with Power Gem, which then you're missing out on a move. Also, they could just predict the switch-in and use Solar Beam so Scorching Sands can just 2HKO if it's Sp. Def . However, ff it is Sp. Def. then Power Gem doesn't even guarantee an OHKO.
0 SpA Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And if it's offensive , Scorching Sands just OHKOs.
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 340-400 (105.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also Focus Blast on a Sp. Def 2HKOs.
252 SpA Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD : 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 195-229 (49.6 - 58.2%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD in Sun: 133-157 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(In return can't 3HKO in time)
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 206-244 (52.2 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD : 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD in Sun: 169-200 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

This is where the legendary Ancient Power tech, the 60 BP rock move, comes into play. While the mirror match is interesting, is just a sad case.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD : 248-292 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While Sp. Def (not even the most common set) gets 2HKO'd, the mirror match is pretty much a gamble. 21.2% of all s carry Ancient Power, and since it's a speed tie, it's basically a 10% chance that either one of the s survives and the other doesn't. This unpredictability makes it so damn volatile.
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Some would think rain changing 's Weather Ball into a STABless water move would help out, right? No.
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD in Rain: 121-143 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD : 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Rain: 163-192 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Scorching Sands vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD : 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Best bet is to safely get onto the field and click Electro Shot. Problem? can delay its mega to whenever it wants to so it can override rain in the middle, thus disrupting so much stuff.


252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 205-243 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD in Sun: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The Ugly
These are weird interactions that I can't really say if it's positive for the user or not.

Following the footsteps of and , here we have levitating Dragon Pokemon with roost! But in all seriousness, all these Pokemon need heavy bulk investment to stomach any hits. Let's start off with
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 155-183 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
It underspeeds and gets practically 2HKO'd by Weather Ball. Modest Draco Meteor doesn't even OHKO if it's .
252+ SpA Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD : 202-238 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Onto ! It CAN switch in on one Solar Beam/Weather Ball and OHKO with Scarf Stone Edge, but it's still a 2HKO if there's no bulk, and Stone Edge is notoriously unreliable, so 20% of times goes out.
252 SpA Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD : 182-215 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD in Sun: 170-201 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
is only here because I saw it on a team in the NatDex OU Bazaar. Click here to see. Reached Top 8 on the ladder, damn impressive.


All great Sp. Def walls, but these two are almost exclusively stall Pokemon, and excels in crushing/breaking stall, so you have to keep these two pink blobs constantly healthy.


can survive a Scorching Sands thanks to its great natural bulk even with rocks up, and can practically OHKO with Bolt Strike. Problem: takes massive chip. Is this worth it? This goes to all other Pokemon that can OHKO and can safely switch in once.


Haha really funny, Sturdy Mirror Coat/Metal Burst/ be funny, haha. No. Rocks.


A very common lead match-up is against , where can mega evole and OHKO with Diamond Storm. However, like Victini, can it eat a hit? Also, what if they have a lead instead? Thus, is a weird check/counter/thing.
Any Problems with Itself?
Cons:
Of course, is not without its flaws.
1. It is a 4x rock weak Pokemon that cannot hold . Not very good.
2. While not bad, 78 - 78 - 115 bulk can only get you so far in tanking priority moves.
3. While 100 speed is serviceable, it's speedties a lot of other Pokemon, like , and , and underspeeds a lot more, like , , and .
4. Everything listed is a switch-in, so therefore if any Pokemon gets a safe switch-in, it can force out and set up rocks or set-up, something like that.
5. 4MSS. can't carry Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power all in one slot, so if you have a check/counter to its most common move (scorching sands), you should be good.

Pros:
However, this is just . I believe one of the more dangerous aspects about it is that how it enables so much teammates that cover its weaknesses and many more. Thus, if its teammates are alive, it kinda has none.
The fact that it has no reliable switch-ins other than stall staples and random Dragon types says a lot too.
Also thanks to Focus Blast, Scorching Sands and Ancient Power, it can pick and choose counters. This creates unhealthy decision making during games, and sometimes results in gambles that they don't have moves, and if you predicted wrong, you are punished HARD. This is inherently unhealthy.

Teammates

practically has perfect synergy with . Not only it deals with a lot of checks/counters of it, but it has Protosynthesis to give it an attack/speed boost in the sun set up by itself, and Rapid Spin to deal with any hazards on field. It's typing also offers a lot of switch-in options. In return nukes physical walls that could handle , like and .

Deals With:



This could get banned soon, so I would advise to read this section with a bit of salt. Either way, either choice locked or set-up, is a menace in sun, and greatly helps with . Basically for all the same reasons with , except it's far more offensive.

Deals with: (kinda)



Another past paradox Pokemon! Protosynthesis boosts offence, yada yada, deals with threats too with strong Electric/Dragon STAB.
Deals with: (kinda)


Finally a non-Paradox Pokemon! With double speed from 's drought, can punch holes in pesky rocks/waters/grounds that could otherwise survive . With Earth Power, Solar Beam, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball, it can pick and choose its counters.
Deals with:
Hold Up!
Aren't I just listing common sun Pokemon? Am I saying that Drought should be banned instead of ? Wouldn't this be the same with or ? Why am I picking on Game Freak's child so much?
The issue is, is nowhere near or . It is simply better.
Let's give a useful analogy. in Gen 9 UU is a pretty similar case. What led to its ban is how its Grassy Terrain teams ravaged the UU landscape, enabling threats such as unburden , , , , and other low-tier picks. While the fact that the terrain/weather setter can pack a punch (though 's grass STAB is so much worse than 's Weather Ball), the fact that it can so easily activate other threats thanks to its ability is what makes it so menacing.
So all of a sudden you aren't just preparing for . You also have to prepare for , , and , or any combo of those, or any other lower-tier abusers, or even all 4 and more! The restrictions this puts on teambuilding in my opinion is wholly unhealthy.
And yes, and enables the exact same Pokemon, but the main difference is is a good Pokemon by itself. While you have to keep constant support to keep and alive for drought, needs minimal support to do its job. The fact that nothing wants to switch in onto it also makes teambuilding even WORSE. This is how like when was used after was banned, Grass Terrain teams suddenly became so much more manageable. Thus, is the problem, not Drought.
Personal Experience
Now let's speak from my perspective on the horrors of .
Whenever I try teambuilding, the first question that comes to me is What can I do to deal with ? and the issue is that I barely have any answers. Below are some ways on how I had to try to deal with it with varying success.
----- : HP Rock to bait in . Worked pretty well! Problem, it was a bait.
----- : I had offensive with Power Gem. Worked pretty well, but I had to keep up its so much, and once I switched-in on a solar beam and then it died. Not fun.
----- : with HP Rock to bait in . Same problems with , it's a bait. could eat some hits, but couldn't do much in return.
----- : I had Ancient Power in an attempt to deal with . My most fond memory was when an opposing used Ancient Power on it, cleanly OHKOing it. I think that was the last time I ever used this team.
- - - - - : I had Z-Stone Edge with Wish to constantly keep it healthy. Hazards became a problem since isn't a great Defogger, but I needed it. Once was weak, easily overwhelms this team.

----- : Volt Switch OHKOS 75% of the time. Should be good enough, right? Problem, people aren't dumb, they'y not keeping on . They will switch to or , which causes problems. Do I click Volt Switch predicting a stay-in? Do I click Focus Blast predicting ? Or HP Ice for ? This is unhealthy. I even have Ancient Power in hopes they don't have Ancient Power on their one. Worked alright.

So in my experience is an absolute pain to teambuild against, resulting in me using obscure baits or worse movesets on Pokemon that would appreciate other moves.

Final Verdict
's combination of a vicious Weather Ball thanks to its sky-high Sp. Atk and Drought, nearly perfect coverage in Solar Beam, Scorching Sands, Focus Blast and Ancient Power allowing it to pick its checks, Roost for longetivity and near perfect synergy with most Sun abusers makes it to constricting in teambuilding, which is unhealthy. Thus, it should be BANNED.

Please say something if you have any thoughts. Is this post too long? Yes. This might get deleted.
Source: https://munchstats.com/gen9nationaldex/1630/Charizard-Mega-Y​

I just hate the rise of non existent moves on zard y to get past it’s checks, lemme go through a few

1) Dragon Pulse​

why is my MLati getting owned rn? I’m not kidding I’ve encountered drsgon pulse YArd multiple times on ladder and am highly disappointed, the only excuse I can logically see is that it’s only for MLati, maybe hydra and the flygon family, as gambit still is a 50/50 cuz aura sphere.

2) Hurricane​

Alright like wtf
Yes, you read that right, hurricane, deals a lot cleaner damage onto , , and like, all other dragons. Doesn’t really check anything just more of a “glue move”, splashable and helps to deal with stuff. The thing is the reverse synergy of zard y and hurricane really confuses me on why ppl would use it, air slash is already a very real option so why go with an incredibly risk with not much higher reward?

My personal opinions:​

I personally am not very comfortable with the comments made about and . You said it yourself: MTar’s a predict. That’s the thing, forcing them into hard reads in the first place basically means you got yourself a fairly solid check. Chomp also can set up rocks on its on, Dragonium sets have been using rocks for that very reason as well safe to say tha the Zard y team is cooked if it’s a sweeper set outside of kgb (yes, the cooking part was an intended ironic pun, im so funny bwahahahahahaaha). Most of the time scarf lele is a well I wouldn’t say a bad MU but definitely a semi-problematic MU with kgb being the saving grace. Not even joking if gambit didn’t exist to save YArd’s ass it would be way more manageable in the builder. I wasn’t also very comfortable about the comments made on molt and tran, idk your criticism was valid but I feel like it’s a lot less accurate in practice. Especially if it’s running ancient power, if it doesn’t get an Omni boost you should be good if you got a dragon or smth on hand. I feel like you should’ve also included zard X and scream tail in the post. I found Zard X to be a solid check to Zard y, mega when weather balled with the Zard y user expecting it to also be a Zard y, 4x resisting and dd’ing up and wow look, the gamestate is a lot more dire now with a +1 XArd in sun (flare blitz is basically nigh unwallable). But then I instantly ragequit when I got checkmated by a fire blast into overheat combo on ladder. Scream tail takes full advantage of yard’s sun against it abusing photosynthesis. My own experience using Zard y made me have mixed opinions on it as managing hazards is a chore with this thing, does it hit harder than the entire US military’s arsenal combined? Yes but a few pebbles easily scare it away so is it truly terrifying?
I think it’s perfectly fine in the tier and acts as a way to see wether you have built a good team or not if you’re able to deal with it just fine without letting do significant damage to your team’s structure, as well generally may help to improve the way you play around it and weather as a whole in the future.

 

[R8]

Imo the key to check Zard-Y is trying to build against Zard-Y teams as opposed to try to check it in a vacuum, a bit like how you'd prep vs rain or stall. This guy needs a lot of support which makes the teams it can fit on limited, and you can take advantage of that - for ex those teams seem a bit soft into Volcarona at times in my opinion. Volcarona isn't a Zard-Y counter or even check by any means, but it does help against it nonetheless as it is a big threat to Zard-Y teams.

I think it's generally a good teambuilding habit to try to check threats by trying to beat the teams they fit on rather than trying to check them individually. Of course some Pokemon just fit on like a million different kind of teams so you can't do that against everything, but some only fit on very specific kind of teams. Usage stats actually keep track of popular partners for Pokemon: you can find them on https://www.smogon.com/stats/ by selecting the month -> "moveset" -> gen9nationaldex-[whatever ladder ranking you are looking for]. For example, here is the table of usages for Zard-Y for last month at 1630 elo:

Mega Charizard Y

+----------------------------------------+
 | Charizard-Mega-Y                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Raw count: 122427                      |
 | Avg. weight: 0.1836548903734395        |
 | Viability Ceiling: 89                  |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Abilities                              |
 | Drought 100.000%                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Items                                  |
 | Charizardite Y 100.000%                |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Spreads                                |
 | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 63.551%          |
 | Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 17.215%          |
 | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252  5.581%          |
 | Timid:0/0/0/252/0/252  2.615%          |
 | Modest:0/0/4/252/0/252  2.223%         |
 | Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252  1.276%         |
 | Other  7.539%                          |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Moves                                  |
 | Solar Beam 95.369%                     |
 | Weather Ball 83.554%                   |
 | Scorching Sands 66.792%                |
 | Roost 46.220%                          |
 | Focus Blast 28.523%                    |
 | Ancient Power 22.099%                  |
 | Air Slash 15.407%                      |
 | Fire Blast 11.460%                     |
 | Overheat  6.013%                       |
 | Dragon Pulse  5.166%                   |
 | Other 19.396%                          |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Tera Types                             |
 | Nothing 100.000%                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Teammates                              |
 | Great Tusk 58.604%                     |
 | Roaring Moon 40.712%                   |
 | Raging Bolt 39.513%                    |
 | Alomomola 22.162%                      |
 | Kingambit 18.573%                      |
 | Gholdengo 14.103%                      |
 | Terapagos 13.506%                      |
 | Iron Valiant 12.984%                   |
 | Landorus-Therian 11.972%               |
 | Slowbro 11.461%                        |
 | Hatterene 10.678%                      |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Checks and Counters                    |
 | Ogerpon-Cornerstone 89.179 (96.12±1.73) |
 |     (30.0% KOed / 66.2% switched out)|
 | Latios-Mega 84.863 (89.52±1.17)        |
 |     (12.2% KOed / 77.3% switched out)|
 | Diancie-Mega 83.378 (88.02±1.16)       |
 |     (21.1% KOed / 66.9% switched out)|
 | Latias-Mega 79.030 (88.40±2.34)        |
 |     (4.9% KOed / 83.5% switched out) |
 | Iron Boulder 78.480 (92.13±3.41)       |
 |     (23.0% KOed / 69.2% switched out)|
 | Roaring Moon 76.199 (80.92±1.18)       |
 |     (28.7% KOed / 52.2% switched out)|
 | Dragonite 72.907 (79.11±1.55)          |
 |     (22.3% KOed / 56.8% switched out)|
 | Aerodactyl-Mega 72.517 (87.03±3.63)    |
 |     (14.4% KOed / 72.6% switched out)|
 | Garchomp 72.062 (78.32±1.57)           |
 |     (16.5% KOed / 61.8% switched out)|
 | Raging Bolt 72.009 (76.47±1.12)        |
 |     (18.2% KOed / 58.3% switched out)|
 | Charizard-Mega-X 71.987 (82.94±2.74)   |
 |     (36.8% KOed / 46.1% switched out)|
 | Blissey 70.617 (78.79±2.04)            |
 |     (2.4% KOed / 76.4% switched out) |
 +----------------------------------------+

(https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-05/moveset/gen9nationaldex-1630.txt)
You can notice how a boosted Volcarona can be a problem for a lot of Zard-Y popular teammates (with the exception of Alomomola, and even then it's not a guaranteed answer - and no, air slash/ancient power zard-y won't stop you once you are boosted lol, you have the bulk to qd again against it). It's probably not the only way to got about it of course, there are probably other ways as well: my point here is that you can use this information to build a strategy against Zard-Y teams as a whole instead of trying to hard counter it.
There is also a check/counters section, in case you are interested to see some Pokemon that regularly force out/ko Zard-Y on the ladder in a 1v1 situation, but that's something probably more interesting if you are building a Zard-Y team yourself.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

(rocks)



(252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Sun: 253-298 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)
These are all the checks and counters I have seen that has made ZardY lose. About mola and gliscor I js thought that they would immediately toxic Yard since Yard can't do anything if toxiced and also somewhere above there was talk about how tusk can't freely spin away rocks because most things outpace it and force it out. Yard sun is good in the sense that it can destroy and threaten slower, bulkier teams but by no means is it "unhealthy" as Yard would have a hard time switching in due to being slower and frailer. (imagine being a mythical being capable of incinerating anything and your only weakness is a bunch of legos)

 

[FirstlyMe]

Imo the key to check Zard-Y is trying to build against Zard-Y teams as opposed to try to check it in a vacuum, a bit like how you'd prep vs rain or stall. This guy needs a lot of support which makes the teams it can fit on limited, and you can take advantage of that - for ex those teams seem a bit soft into Volcarona at times in my opinion. Volcarona isn't a Zard-Y counter or even check by any means, but it does help against it nonetheless as it is a big threat to Zard-Y teams.

I think it's generally a good teambuilding habit to try to check threats by trying to beat the teams they fit on rather than trying to check them individually. Of course some Pokemon just fit on like a million different kind of teams so you can't do that against everything, but some only fit on very specific kind of teams. Usage stats actually keep track of popular partners for Pokemon: you can find them on https://www.smogon.com/stats/ by selecting the month -> "moveset" -> gen9nationaldex-[whatever ladder ranking you are looking for]. For example, here is the table of usages for Zard-Y for last month at 1630 elo:

Mega Charizard Y

+----------------------------------------+
 | Charizard-Mega-Y                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Raw count: 122427                      |
 | Avg. weight: 0.1836548903734395        |
 | Viability Ceiling: 89                  |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Abilities                              |
 | Drought 100.000%                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Items                                  |
 | Charizardite Y 100.000%                |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Spreads                                |
 | Timid:0/0/0/252/4/252 63.551%          |
 | Timid:0/0/4/252/0/252 17.215%          |
 | Timid:4/0/0/252/0/252  5.581%          |
 | Timid:0/0/0/252/0/252  2.615%          |
 | Modest:0/0/4/252/0/252  2.223%         |
 | Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252  1.276%         |
 | Other  7.539%                          |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Moves                                  |
 | Solar Beam 95.369%                     |
 | Weather Ball 83.554%                   |
 | Scorching Sands 66.792%                |
 | Roost 46.220%                          |
 | Focus Blast 28.523%                    |
 | Ancient Power 22.099%                  |
 | Air Slash 15.407%                      |
 | Fire Blast 11.460%                     |
 | Overheat  6.013%                       |
 | Dragon Pulse  5.166%                   |
 | Other 19.396%                          |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Tera Types                             |
 | Nothing 100.000%                       |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Teammates                              |
 | Great Tusk 58.604%                     |
 | Roaring Moon 40.712%                   |
 | Raging Bolt 39.513%                    |
 | Alomomola 22.162%                      |
 | Kingambit 18.573%                      |
 | Gholdengo 14.103%                      |
 | Terapagos 13.506%                      |
 | Iron Valiant 12.984%                   |
 | Landorus-Therian 11.972%               |
 | Slowbro 11.461%                        |
 | Hatterene 10.678%                      |
 +----------------------------------------+
 | Checks and Counters                    |
 | Ogerpon-Cornerstone 89.179 (96.12±1.73) |
 |     (30.0% KOed / 66.2% switched out)|
 | Latios-Mega 84.863 (89.52±1.17)        |
 |     (12.2% KOed / 77.3% switched out)|
 | Diancie-Mega 83.378 (88.02±1.16)       |
 |     (21.1% KOed / 66.9% switched out)|
 | Latias-Mega 79.030 (88.40±2.34)        |
 |     (4.9% KOed / 83.5% switched out) |
 | Iron Boulder 78.480 (92.13±3.41)       |
 |     (23.0% KOed / 69.2% switched out)|
 | Roaring Moon 76.199 (80.92±1.18)       |
 |     (28.7% KOed / 52.2% switched out)|
 | Dragonite 72.907 (79.11±1.55)          |
 |     (22.3% KOed / 56.8% switched out)|
 | Aerodactyl-Mega 72.517 (87.03±3.63)    |
 |     (14.4% KOed / 72.6% switched out)|
 | Garchomp 72.062 (78.32±1.57)           |
 |     (16.5% KOed / 61.8% switched out)|
 | Raging Bolt 72.009 (76.47±1.12)        |
 |     (18.2% KOed / 58.3% switched out)|
 | Charizard-Mega-X 71.987 (82.94±2.74)   |
 |     (36.8% KOed / 46.1% switched out)|
 | Blissey 70.617 (78.79±2.04)            |
 |     (2.4% KOed / 76.4% switched out) |
 +----------------------------------------+

(https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-05/moveset/gen9nationaldex-1630.txt)
You can notice how a boosted Volcarona can be a problem for a lot of Zard-Y popular teammates (with the exception of Alomomola, and even then it's not a guaranteed answer - and no, air slash/ancient power zard-y won't stop you once you are boosted lol, you have the bulk to qd again against it). It's probably not the only way to got about it of course, there are probably other ways as well: my point here is that you can use this information to build a strategy against Zard-Y teams as a whole instead of trying to hard counter it.
There is also a check/counters section, in case you are interested to see some Pokemon that regularly force out/ko Zard-Y on the ladder in a 1v1 situation, but that's something probably more interesting if you are building a Zard-Y team yourself.

I highly respect and agree with your claim here!
Though if you ask me the best way to deal with zard y structures or literally any team structure in general is by practicing/having practice against it. I was able to deal with sun fairly fine, maybe with a bit of elbow grease with the following teams, (please note that most of these teams are also a bit old are likely outdated as well probably aren’t even good):
- - - - - (Tapu Bulu BO)
https://pokepast.es/844c83a70e20ba3a
(Edited versions of the above team)
- - - - - (bulu BO + gambit)
https://pokepast.es/e1bd5e2cc1605d95
- - - - - (Bulu bulky balance/BO + ferro)
https://pokepast.es/47c0c559bc9d6f29
(Back to original teams)
- - - - - (SD Z lando BO)
https://pokepast.es/3c14b5b4e5ac0580
- - - - - (ZardRillaKoko BO)
https://pokepast.es/27d88b9d0bf26cf2 (btw I put this team up for sample submission quite a while ago)
- - - - - (A normal BO/Bulky offense, no special mons or anything lol)
https://pokepast.es/d12bc394c3a2943e (Ik this has Volc and mtar but sun can still definitely beat this team)
- - - - - (Mega Gardevioir bulky balance)
https://pokepast.es/54862cd3dc857588 (This team is kinda bad so wouldn’t really recommend it)

Also here are some of my personal favorite teams made by other ppl which don’t directly have anything against sun teams but can beat sun structures:
- - - - - (specs lele + SubRoost kyu BO by Seth)
https://pokepast.es/1019a1ea4f6436be
- - - - - (SD chomp + scarf shifu BO by Ineros)
https://pokepast.es/00f416708ebd5483

Do any of the above teams or at the very least most of the above teams have anything which 6-0’s or helps to 6-0 sun? No (okay admittedly the zard X team there is able to, i’ve done it before while using the team). These teams can beat sun through well ofc having it in mind in the builder but also through practice.
Though it may sound cheesy, “practice makes man perfect.” Is fairly true!
(Relooking on it, the 2nd and 3rd to last teams made by me are kinda poor examples of this, but you get it)