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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Recently i’ve been enjoying the tier a lot more, I’m confident that most of this is due to me forging a healthier relationship with the game but a part of the reason is definitely me going back to test out shitmons- trust me, it’s fun :)
One of the core reasons I fell in love with the tier was cuz of the shitmon experimentation variety actually.
I’ve built around like 5 atm as of recently: Mega Heracross, Dragalgea, Zeraora, Regieleki and Hydreigon
And have used the tho not really a shitmon but still unpopular Ursaluna and am PLANNING to use sd tinka and MPinsir.

So how are they?
Shit, that’s what they are (I mean, it’s in the name: shitmon). I’m being honest to god when I’m saying this, my MHera team is probably the best team I’ve built with a shitmon but it felt like I was fighting a 5v6 like 90% of the time.
Lemme list out some of strengths i’ve noticed so far of each mon

The Shitmon shit show:

:sv/heracross-mega:
Kinda bulky, packs a serious punch and has pretty damn strong knock offs. I didn’t use SD, that’s lame, instead I used 4a with rock blast, pin missile, knock and cc while running max investment in hp and attack. Wanted this to be an “unignorable bulky wallbreaker”, guess what? It was ignorable :)
Albeit I’m over exaggerating it, most battles felt more of a 5.5v6 tbh.
Here’s the team if any of y’all want it (warning, it’s kinda bad but also definitely usable):
:Heracross-mega: :alomomola: :Dragonite: :tapu lele: :Heatran: :terapagos-terastal:
https://pokepast.es/9f1e26137dbdd647

:sv/dragalge:
(on paper) walls wellspring, can pivot, has strong draco’s and sludge waves, has hazards (in t spikes) and is a good toxic spreader. I used adaptability with sludge wave, Draco, flip turn and t spikes. How was it? Bad.. really bad. The rest of the team doesn’t *properly* support it ig but i’ve basically given up on testing it, it’s like a cardboard cutout of a restaurant which you fell for and thought was real and actually tried to go inside of it to sum it up. Way worse in practice. Now my complaints for wellspring can also be blamed on my overall incompetency as a player but it being able to 2 shot dragalgea with +2 cudgel is just… why.
Here’s the paste if you want it for some reason:
:dragalge: :gliscor: :terapagos-terastal: :ogerpon-wellspring: :alomomola: :tapu lele:
https://pokepast.es/1f6441a4ca2bbf24

:sv/Zeraora: :sv/regieleki:
Grouping these 2 together since they have a pretty similar role.
Fast volt pivot… that’s it.
I’ve given up on eleki tho am still willing to expirament with Zeraora cuz eleki is the definition of “come here and hit me!” Whenever there’s a ground type, which surprise! Almost every team has one.
Zeraora can’t threaten grounds (with the set I’m running: volt, plasma fists, knock, cc) but can at least do something when facing one.
I’ll still be testing zera so note the paste would be “incomplete”.
One strength of eleki is that if the opponent’s ground goes down, it’s capable of 6-0’ing (or 5-0’ing ig). I’m not exaggerating, I’ve done it before.
Anyways here are the pastes:
:Zeraora: :Samurott-Hisui: :gholdengo: :Charizard-mega-y: :great tusk: :gliscor:
https://pokepast.es/4bbf3339e2a31ab7 (Gets destroyed by scarf shifu btw)
:Regieleki: :tapu lele: :garchomp: :iron valiant: :Ferrothorn: :corviknight:
https://pokepast.es/2acba9d4927dafca (This team is shit, got way too many reverse synergies. Still not rebuilding eleki anytime soon tho)

:sv/hydreigon:
I’ve temporarily given up but will (probably) pick it back up later. I’ve been using scarf and my days it’s ass. It does like 38% to Zard y btw (with dark pulse), I was expecting like 42-45% bare minimum. I wanna try AV and nasty plot tho, as nasty plot overall has seen greater success in gen 9 overall with hydra. There was a sv ou sample with it even, I remember vividly.
It requires a ton of support still. Overall still bad, performed way worse than I expected, once again similarly to zera the team is “incomplete” but that doesn’t change the fact it can barely output damage (damn power creep’s a bitch, this is 125 sp.atk we’re talking about).
Paste:
:hydreigon: :ogerpon-wellspring: :Ferrothorn: :Moltres: :lopunny-mega: :gliscor:
https://pokepast.es/3ad67f6c0af644bb


HOW TO USE SHITMONS GUIDE:

Step 1: Pick a shitmon which has “potential”. :Wigglytuff:
Basically, pick a shitmon which can actually do smth, you’re not getting anything done with a tatsugiri but *can* get smth done with a hydreigon (keyword: can).

Step 2: :alomomola: spam
Spam this thing, on every team. The only teams I didn’t use it in was zera and eleki cuz they’re way too frail, if they take damage they’re realistically already dead. I somehow didn’t use it hydra tho so fuck :)

Step 3: Get partners which patch up the shitmon’s weaknesses. :Urshifu-rapid-strike:
For example, Mola is usually an excellent partner as it patches up a ton of weaknesses usually, and saves the difficulty of recovery and pivoting.
Another example, I picked dnite as a partner for MHera since it handles wellspring well. (Unboosted cudgel does like 42-ish% iirc, so it was important if you ask me)

Step 4: Test and patch the team :iron valiant:
Just like normal teambuilding, test it out on ladder and patch up obvious weaknesses! I’ll advise that you don’t need to patch up a weakness against an uncommon mon like MMawhile for example.

I’m really fucking tired and am too lazy to write a proper conclusion So Thank you for reading, sorry if it felt like I wasted your time, have a great day moving forward!​
 
300px-Yusei_Scientist.jpg


Hello, its the enthusiast/researcher/Helper/instigator/Lebron/contributer/ ayevon (WCOP Northeast captain) of nat dex. In order to keep up with the meta for building purposes and spotting player patterns, I try to watch every single SV ND tournament game. We're approaching week 4 of NDPL and I wanted to showcase some trends I've seen that I think either can or should be standard. (EV spreads may not be accurate cause honestly idk what people are running on these mons. I'm just assuming/using spreads I think would be used.)

:ceruledge:
Ceruledge @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Bitter Blade
- Swords Dance
- Endure
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-871294 this is the first time I've seen this set although could have been used before. I Generally always thought this mon was very underwhelming, you always want sash to have snowball potential AND Z crystal to break past stuff properly. This set gives you both and is great because not many of thr special attackers 1 shot it, so you trade with them after a sd and just endure into the physical stuff. Very heat, should def be used more on offense.

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Dragon
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost
First time I've seen this used is here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-870676 now usually the most common set is boots sub roost 2 atks, which I think is extremely overrated. The mindset is "i sub and nothing switches into ground/ice" which is true on paper, but you dont break certain mons properly such as ferro, corv, lefties clefable, Moltres, don't do enough to mons like ting lu or even opposing kyurem. For this reason I've liked 3 atks(ice beam)+ roost over the boots set but I think this is alot better. Being able to do 90/1 shot ferro/scizor is huge and freeze dry+earth power hit like a truck against SE targets. Drawback is you're slower than Timid ghold but I haven't seen timid non scarf in awhile, i urge people to try this set especially with cinder/Slowking-Galar its heat.

:iron treads:
Iron Treads @ Leftovers/Icium Z
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Spinner
- Stealth Rock/Knock off
Not exactly ground breaking and has been used in the past but its picking up usage. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-870330
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-868924
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-872981
Threads is an interesting ground because its also a steel type, which helps it remove hazards easier against mons like ferro, tapu lele, and even Gholdengo since you don't take much from its main stab moves besides ghost z. Great speed tier and great bulk on top of that hope to see it used more.

:blaziken:
Blaziken @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
P sure ryuji used it first but ngl, nobody is finding those games. Edit: found it https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-847164 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-871189?p2 think on PAPER its safe to say pex kinda fell off a bit. The main bulky water is now mola which makes this set alot better. Fire Z was mainly for lando/zap anyway which isnt so bad to attack into with raw blitz.

:gliscor:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ground
- Earthquake/Knock off
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Facade
Long ago in the land of copeville, most thought that earthquake, toxic, protect, spikes gliscor should be the only set used. We are now in September of 2025 and I don't remember the last time Ive seen that set, or the type of teams it was on put in work. I do think its still one of the most consistent sets still,(I'll touch on that below) but SD gliscor has some merrit. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-869019 SD gliscor picks on fat teams whos normal answer to it would be just sitting on it via clef, ferro, or flip turn with mola and cycling till its forced out. Should definitely be paired with spikes/knock imo but to each their own. I think this is really solid on stall and on bulky offense if you can fit it.

Bonus: Which playstyle is back?????
:Gliscor: + :Toxapex:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ground
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Spikes

Toxapex @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whatever
- You
- Want
- Bro
I spent half the year talking down on this core(I genuinely think no one was prepping for it at first and thats why it looked better than what it was) but I think it can makena comeback. Watched alot of pl games and not many people are runningknock absorbers at least with the better players. Plus gliscor loves to knock mons that have to interact with it like tusk to pressure spikes easier later, zap to kake clearing hazards harder, or clef to take awayits longevity. Can't say this is good again without any showings but I think it should make a comeback in tours, try it out

Happy building! :heart:
 
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okay we're gonna have a serious talk about gholdengo for a second so listen in

HOW THE DISCOVERY OF MODEST Z GHOLDENGO BROKE THE TIER
(yes this is a real set check magic matchmaking)
For a while, I've still been seething over Ogerpon-Wellspring and how it sucks for the tier, and I still believe this is fact, but it's not to the level of Gholdengo. Gholdengo has multiple things going for it that, on their own, wouldn't be banworthy, but together, form an unhealthy Pokemon for the tier's playability. Why do I think this? Well...


POINT 1: Z-Moves break this Pokemon.
Z-moves have been a questionable generational gimmick since Sun & Moon in both VGC and singles, we all know this. They have pushed many a Pokemon over the edge into the realm of broken, they make pretty much anything into a stellar Knock Off absorber, and they make giving setup sweepers a free turn extremely terrifying. With Gholdengo's ability to switch into Defog so freely, it's usually really easy to get a free turn to setup. On a Pokemon built like this, a free turn is a death sentence for your opponent. The thing about Gholdengo is that the Defog that it blocks allows that one spike to chip your check switching in, allowing it not only a free Nasty Plot, doubling its threatening 133 base special attack, but your check coming in will likely be chipped by the same hazards that Gholdengo was able to safely keep on the field for zero cost, allowing it to be OHKOed by a boosted Z-Move. This is the core of what makes Gholdengo banworthy.

POINT 2: It only has one real answer.
Now, is this one answer arguably the most prevalent Pokemon in the tier? Yes, I won't deny that. Do you know why it's the most prevalent? Because it can 1v1 the most unhealthy wallbreaker in the tier and actually win. Assault Vest Alomomola is so popular not only because it checks Gholdengo so easily, but because it can check Volcarona, Choice Scarf & setup Tapu Lele, Mega Charizard Y (although shaky), Iron Valiant, Mega Latios (bar special defense drops), and so much more. However, the thing about these other Pokemon is that they have other checks. For example, Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele can be checked by Slowking-Galar, Mega Charizard Y has a solid few checks (including Stealth Rock like dear god), and Volcarona has specially defensive Roar Moltres. Gholdengo has none of these issues. Blissey gets worn down and runs out of Softboiled PP, or just gets setup on and killed by Fightinium Z. Unaware Clodsire gets worn down too easily to even DARE be considered a counter. Ting-Lu has a 75% chance to get OHKOed by +2 Steelium Z after a single spike, and OHKOed by Fightinium Z outright after a nasty plot, not even mentioning how Focus Blast (accuracy willing) will 2HKO after setup and is always run on anything not Steelium Z. Specially defensive Moltres shouldn't even be considered a check, it's OHKOed by +2 Ghostium Z and Shadow Ball is a 2HKO. Gliscor gets OHKOed by Steelium and Ghostium, OHKOed by raw Make It Rain, and easily 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, even after a Protect. Need I go on? Assault Vest Alomomola is the only real Pokemon who can beat Gholdengo 1v1, and unelss you haven't yet realized, this isn't healthy.

POINT 3: Its typing, on top of its ability, is fucking stupid.
Everybody and their mothers agree with this take, and if you don't, you're lying, ragebaiting, or a genuine loaf of bread. Back to my statement from Point #1, the core of what makes Gholdengo unhealthy, and overall broken, is this core concept: Ghold switches in on Defog, Ghold sets up on switch to check as check takes damage from hazards Ghold denied removal of, and one of two situations happen:
1. Ghold drops Z-Move or just uses shadow ball, and your check is gone, opening a gaping hole in your defensive core.
2. Your check is AV Alo, in which you click flip turn on the Shadow Ball or Nasty Plot and switch into something that outspeeds and OHKOs it, then Ghold switches out (this process repeats until either Alo is worn down by Shadow Balls and max hazards, or the battle ends).
This is not a healthy dynamic for the tier, and it genuinely blows my mind why Gholdengo hasn't been at LEAST suspect tested yet.
Now, I'm sure I'll have a lot of people disagreeing with me, saying "you're blowing it way out of proportion" "Modest Z isn't even a real set" among other things, and I just want to get a few things out of the way.
  • I am not blowing anything out of proportion, as I will include the calcs now.
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 576-678 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:moltres: Moltres

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 466-550 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:gliscor: Gliscor

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 612-721 (173.8 - 204.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 516-607 (146.5 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
  • for the non-believers in 252 Modest Z, someone will eventually use it in tour to high success, and when the cat's out of the bag, you'll come running, telling me I was right.​
If anyone still wants to argue their case of why this absurd being of string cheese isn't broken, please, by all means, plead your case. I would love to hear your excuse of why we should keep the tier unhealthy.​
 
Explain how the tier would be without Gholdengo, and I'll listen to the ban arguments myself. If you can paint a picture of a good tier without it (last time, without it the tier was worse, but it innately was) then I'll get on board. Numbers and specific scenarios don't move me when Gholdengo itself is much more than that.
What positive things does Gholdengo do for the tier that would mean its worth keeping such an unhealthy wallbreaker around?
The tier without Ghold would basically be more bulky teams around and hazards not being as punishing, I don't see an issue with that.
As well, Sticky Web gets an immediate nerf, so it lessens the grip HO holds on the tier even further.
 
What positive things does Gholdengo do for the tier that would mean its worth keeping such an unhealthy wallbreaker around?
The tier without Ghold would basically be more bulky teams around and hazards not being as punishing, I don't see an issue with that.
As well, Sticky Web gets an immediate nerf, so it lessens the grip HO holds on the tier even further.
the only potential issue is we lose a strong Tapu Lele answer, but there's more than enough to cover for that. Corviknight immediately becomes significantly better, spdef could be a good check, Defog becomes immediately stronger, etc.

I can only see the metagame growing in a positive way if gholdengo is removed from the tier, even dark z parting shot pecharunt or sinistcha could rise as good ghosts/spinblockers in this case, but hazards aren't so dominant as to be outright oppressive.
 
okay we're gonna have a serious talk about gholdengo for a second so listen in

HOW THE DISCOVERY OF MODEST Z GHOLDENGO BROKE THE TIER
(yes this is a real set check magic matchmaking)
For a while, I've still been seething over Ogerpon-Wellspring and how it sucks for the tier, and I still believe this is fact, but it's not to the level of Gholdengo. Gholdengo has multiple things going for it that, on their own, wouldn't be banworthy, but together, form an unhealthy Pokemon for the tier's playability. Why do I think this? Well...


POINT 1: Z-Moves break this Pokemon.
Z-moves have been a questionable generational gimmick since Sun & Moon in both VGC and singles, we all know this. They have pushed many a Pokemon over the edge into the realm of broken, they make pretty much anything into a stellar Knock Off absorber, and they make giving setup sweepers a free turn extremely terrifying. With Gholdengo's ability to switch into Defog so freely, it's usually really easy to get a free turn to setup. On a Pokemon built like this, a free turn is a death sentence for your opponent. The thing about Gholdengo is that the Defog that it blocks allows that one spike to chip your check switching in, allowing it not only a free Nasty Plot, doubling its threatening 133 base special attack, but your check coming in will likely be chipped by the same hazards that Gholdengo was able to safely keep on the field for zero cost, allowing it to be OHKOed by a boosted Z-Move. This is the core of what makes Gholdengo banworthy.

POINT 2: It only has one real answer.
Now, is this one answer arguably the most prevalent Pokemon in the tier? Yes, I won't deny that. Do you know why it's the most prevalent? Because it can 1v1 the most unhealthy wallbreaker in the tier and actually win. Assault Vest Alomomola is so popular not only because it checks Gholdengo so easily, but because it can check Volcarona, Choice Scarf & setup Tapu Lele, Mega Charizard Y (although shaky), Iron Valiant, Mega Latios (bar special defense drops), and so much more. However, the thing about these other Pokemon is that they have other checks. For example, Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele can be checked by Slowking-Galar, Mega Charizard Y has a solid few checks (including Stealth Rock like dear god), and Volcarona has specially defensive Roar Moltres. Gholdengo has none of these issues. Blissey gets worn down and runs out of Softboiled PP, or just gets setup on and killed by Fightinium Z. Unaware Clodsire gets worn down too easily to even DARE be considered a counter. Ting-Lu has a 75% chance to get OHKOed by +2 Steelium Z after a single spike, and OHKOed by Fightinium Z outright after a nasty plot, not even mentioning how Focus Blast (accuracy willing) will 2HKO after setup and is always run on anything not Steelium Z. Specially defensive Moltres shouldn't even be considered a check, it's OHKOed by +2 Ghostium Z and Shadow Ball is a 2HKO. Gliscor gets OHKOed by Steelium and Ghostium, OHKOed by raw Make It Rain, and easily 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, even after a Protect. Need I go on? Assault Vest Alomomola is the only real Pokemon who can beat Gholdengo 1v1, and unelss you haven't yet realized, this isn't healthy.

POINT 3: Its typing, on top of its ability, is fucking stupid.
Everybody and their mothers agree with this take, and if you don't, you're lying, ragebaiting, or a genuine loaf of bread. Back to my statement from Point #1, the core of what makes Gholdengo unhealthy, and overall broken, is this core concept: Ghold switches in on Defog, Ghold sets up on switch to check as check takes damage from hazards Ghold denied removal of, and one of two situations happen:
1. Ghold drops Z-Move or just uses shadow ball, and your check is gone, opening a gaping hole in your defensive core.
2. Your check is AV Alo, in which you click flip turn on the Shadow Ball or Nasty Plot and switch into something that outspeeds and OHKOs it, then Ghold switches out (this process repeats until either Alo is worn down by Shadow Balls and max hazards, or the battle ends).
This is not a healthy dynamic for the tier, and it genuinely blows my mind why Gholdengo hasn't been at LEAST suspect tested yet.
Now, I'm sure I'll have a lot of people disagreeing with me, saying "you're blowing it way out of proportion" "Modest Z isn't even a real set" among other things, and I just want to get a few things out of the way.
  • I am not blowing anything out of proportion, as I will include the calcs now.
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 576-678 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:moltres: Moltres

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 466-550 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:gliscor: Gliscor

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 612-721 (173.8 - 204.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 516-607 (146.5 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
  • for the non-believers in 252 Modest Z, someone will eventually use it in tour to high success, and when the cat's out of the bag, you'll come running, telling me I was right.​
If anyone still wants to argue their case of why this absurd being of string cheese isn't broken, please, by all means, plead your case. I would love to hear your excuse of why we should keep the tier unhealthy.​
Oh G, another mon that destroys stall? The tier is RUINED! (or safe, depending on which side your in).
Jokes aside: This is NOT a very good take. Going Modest with Gholdengo is honestly quitr the drawback, as youre now outspeed by mons like non Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Hisuian Samurott, and Rillaboom for example. It seems the every month we are crying about a certain mon, or we are throwing darts on a roulette to see who to complain about (by the way, next month might be Alomomola again). Z moves as a whole keep getting complained about a lot by a ton of players, I will agree here. But this isn't as busted as a ton of players make it out be. Sure, it is frustrating when a dangerous draco meteor spammer just decided to say "your Blissey is now dead" click Dragonium Z and keep 6-0'ing you, but one thing you can do is prevent that Z mivecfrom landing on its target. Z move is a 1 time deal, and if you dont nail your target now, there is a chance you wont have another shot at it. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made, and we don't think of the game in the longterm, perhaps letting a mon take thar Dragonium Z for that Blissey and it dying could allow Blissey to Heal off from a Draco Meteor that is no longer capable of bursting through and can ruin that sweeper. And this isn't adding resistances or immunities, of which includes to some of Gholdengo's Ghostium Z and Fightnium Z. Sure, not every team has a Ghost Immunity, a Fighting immunity or even a Steel resist, but in those cases, sometimes a good sack is the right play. This of course isnt ironclad, and there is the chance you are just totally screwed, but it isnt as busted as people make it sound. Gholdengo might be scary and what not, but you can sometimes handle it with a good sack, or by applying pressure on the opponent before they can get their Gholdengo in a position to setup, which should become easier btw now that this is MODEST Gholdengo. Av Mola is also a generally very good mon, even outside of answering Gholdengo, so it isnt like a huge lost in tempo if that is what youre worried about.
 
Oh G, another mon that destroys stall? The tier is RUINED! (or safe, depending on which side your in).
Jokes aside: This is NOT a very good take.

Please structure your essays in a readable way next time, thank you. I almost had a seizure reading that.

I will now provide constructive criticism to your points, deconstructing your whole post instead of just hurling insults and mindlessly typing like you did.

Going Modest with Gholdengo is honestly quitr the drawback, as youre now outspeed by mons like non Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Hisuian Samurott, and Rillaboom for example.

Your point is the mon who's meant to wallbreak gets outpaced by Pokemon who literally outpaced it beforehand, in the case of Lele and Hamurott, both who go past the 293 speed benchmark either way, and Rillaboom, who usually can't hit Gholdengo other than using Knock Off anyways. Modest isn't a drawback whatsoever, it allows Gholdengo to do its job and wallbreak. My post was about Gholdengo being too good at wallbreaking, so bringing these things up had genuinely nothing to do with my point and was just saying things to say them.

It seems the every month we are crying about a certain mon, or we are throwing darts on a roulette to see who to complain about (by the way, next month might be Alomomola again).

1) This was just throwing insults to throw them, and 2) Nobody in their right mind complains about Alomomola, meanwhile I'm bringing up genuine points on why this Pokemon is banworthy. Please, for the love of God, work on respect.

Z moves as a whole keep getting complained about a lot by a ton of players, I will agree here. But this isn't as busted as a ton of players make it out be. Sure, it is frustrating when a dangerous draco meteor spammer just decided to say "your Blissey is now dead" click Dragonium Z and keep 6-0'ing you, but one thing you can do is prevent that Z mivecfrom landing on its target. Z move is a 1 time deal, and if you dont nail your target now, there is a chance you wont have another shot at it.

At this point, you rattle off on an example entirely unrelated to my point, bringing up a healthy Pokemon, Raging Bolt, and its Dragonium Z set, vs. a Blissey. Your point here makes no sense, and you need to work on your grammar.

Sometimes sacrifices need to be made, and we don't think of the game in the longterm, perhaps letting a mon take thar Dragonium Z for that Blissey and it dying could allow Blissey to Heal off from a Draco Meteor that is no longer capable of bursting through and can ruin that sweeper.

This would've definitely have been mentioned by me if it mattered in the context of my argument, but on jsut about all of the examples I provided, except for the Steelium Z vs Ting-Lu example, sacking a Pokemon didn't do anything positive for you, because the Gholdengo user could just choose to not Z and still 2HKO its target. I did bring this up, and this being mentioned means you didn't absorb any of my argument in that section and instead chose to reply without thinking.

And this isn't adding resistances or immunities, of which includes to some of Gholdengo's Ghostium Z and Fightnium Z. Sure, not every team has a Ghost Immunity, a Fighting immunity or even a Steel resist, but in those cases, sometimes a good sack is the right play. This of course isnt ironclad, and there is the chance you are just totally screwed, but it isnt as busted as people make it sound.

Not only are ghost resists, a fighting immunity, and a steel resist nearly required on any top level team, but what you call "a good sack" I already covered, so we don't need to reiterate this, Not only that, but the dynamic of there being a chance that there's just nothing you can do shouldn't exist and is the main reason I brought this up in the first place.

Gholdengo might be scary and what not, but you can sometimes handle it with a good sack, or by applying pressure on the opponent before they can get their Gholdengo in a position to setup, which should become easier btw now that this is MODEST Gholdengo. Av Mola is also a generally very good mon, even outside of answering Gholdengo, so it isnt like a huge lost in tempo if that is what youre worried about.

Your final point is either something I've already stated in this post, or something I openly explained with excruciating detail in my original post, which you yet again failed to read, clearly. There is something I would like to cover though, and that is the "applying pressure" bit. There's not much you can do to apply pressure against a wallbreaker of this caliber, because not only would hard switching your offensive Pokemon in be a death sentence, but the things that are supposed to check Gholdengo can't even do that much. The only realistic way of threatening it would be AV Alo, which again, if you actually read and analyzed my original post, is a problem for the tier right now.

If you want, I could go into detail the benefits of removing Gholdengo from the tier.
 
I won't deny, this wasn't my best discussion, I've been out of it for a good while. And I am not saying that Gholdengo shouldn't be banned, in fact, I do see the positive things you did mention, like hazard stacking being less oppressive, defensive core become better, webs dead, etc. But I also do not think that Gholdengo is as nearly as broken as you point it out to be.
 
I won't deny, this wasn't my best discussion, I've been out of it for a good while. And I am not saying that Gholdengo shouldn't be banned, in fact, I do see the positive things you did mention, like hazard stacking being less oppressive, defensive core become better, webs dead, etc. But I also do not think that Gholdengo is as nearly as broken as you point it out to be.
Your argument won't go anywhere if you don't provide points toward your reasoning. Just stating you disagree with something and not providing why makes no sense, and I would love to hear why my calcs are false and Gholdengo isn't offensively oppressive, forcing an AV Alo on any half-decent defensive core. In my eyes, Gholdengo is clearly broken, and I would love to hear your side as to why it isn't.
 
What positive things does Gholdengo do for the tier that would mean its worth keeping such an unhealthy wallbreaker around?
The tier without Ghold would basically be more bulky teams around and hazards not being as punishing, I don't see an issue with that.
As well, Sticky Web gets an immediate nerf, so it lessens the grip HO holds on the tier even further.
Gholdengo's presence in the tier is inherently a large stumbling block for bulky teams using passive mons like Toxapex and Corviknight to try and solve problems without considering big threats to their team. Without it, the tier would likely collapse onto incredibly bulky compositions. Not to mention, its presence means that people are forced to search for alternative ways to remove hazards - while offense can do that easily by fitting Terapagos or Tusk, two Spinners that beat Gholdengo naturally, bulky teams are forced to innovate, making the metagame better as a whole. Not to mention, it plays a pivotal role in checking many key threats - AoA Zama, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko for some.

Sticky Web is also not a major archetype in the metagame right now. I would urge you to take your own advice and stop mindlessly typing about how Ghold is broken without actually understanding what it brings to the metagame. And no, HO doesn't hold a death grip on the tier - in fact, offensive playstyles that aren't all-or-nothing like HO are top picks alongside the bulky teams that you consider dead due to Gholdengo's mere presence. In fact, in all of the SVND games played in Week 2 of NDPL (which I used since it is the most relevant data), pure HO appeared only twice (and only once with Gholdengo on it) and lost both games.


Technically true theoretical calculations do not mean anything in the grand scheme, either - if the set was so good, then it would likely start seeing tour use over what is currently being used (ex. TWave + Hex Ghold as a great glue). If you can show me some replays of the set being broken into non-AV Mola teams, then that would actually prove your calcs to be good evidence against Ghold.
 
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Your argument won't go anywhere if you don't provide points toward your reasoning. Just stating you disagree with something and not providing why makes no sense, and I would love to hear why my calcs are false and Gholdengo isn't offensively oppressive, forcing an AV Alo on any half-decent defensive core. In my eyes, Gholdengo is clearly broken, and I would love to hear your side as to why it isn't.
Feel free to discard my intial statement (which i'll admit, it wasnt one of my best ones), but I did already said that going Modest comes at the cost of some speedtier losses, there is 1. While powerful on paper, this doesnt mean it will win you the game in practice, much like with any other breaker/sweeper. Gholdengo mainly punishes teams that are way too passive, and the best counter measure to this is playing more aggressively. Even balance teams should have a good counter measure for Gholdengo if built well, such as having Pursuit Kingambit, or an offensive core that pressures it.
 
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POINT 1: Z-Moves break this Pokemon.
Z-moves have been a questionable generational gimmick since Sun & Moon in both VGC and singles,

Not really no.

They have pushed many a Pokemon over the edge into the realm of broken, they make pretty much anything into a stellar Knock Off absorber, and they make giving setup sweepers a free turn extremely terrifying. With Gholdengo's ability to switch into Defog so freely, it's usually really easy to get a free turn to setup. On a Pokemon built like this, a free turn is a death sentence for your opponent. The thing about Gholdengo is that the Defog that it blocks allows that one spike to chip your check switching in, allowing it not only a free Nasty Plot, doubling its threatening 133 base special attack, but your check coming in will likely be chipped by the same hazards that Gholdengo was able to safely keep on the field for zero cost, allowing it to be OHKOed by a boosted Z-Move. This is the core of what makes Gholdengo banworthy.

Having a knock off absorber is great so the move can’t just be spammed without risk so easily.

But that’s less relevant. Gholdengo in practice can’t block Defog nearly as freely as you make it out to be, considering it outright loses to Landorus-T, Gliscor and Moltres (albeit that one you run with secondary removal), plus it can’t spin block Terapagos reliably at all. It also can just falter against Defog Gliscor in some situations. And it can’t deal well with Great Tusk either.

Gholdengo is metagame defining, but it’s that quality that leads it to being something every team has a way to deal with and by nature, have ways to take advantage of, punish or lure it in some way.


POINT 2: It only has one real answer.
Now, is this one answer arguably the most prevalent Pokemon in the tier? Yes, I won't deny that. Do you know why it's the most prevalent? Because it can 1v1 the most unhealthy wallbreaker in the tier and actually win. Assault Vest Alomomola is so popular not only because it checks Gholdengo so easily, but because it can check Volcarona, Choice Scarf & setup Tapu Lele, Mega Charizard Y (although shaky), Iron Valiant, Mega Latios (bar special defense drops), and so much more. However, the thing about these other Pokemon is that they have other checks. For example, Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele can be checked by Slowking-Galar, Mega Charizard Y has a solid few checks (including Stealth Rock like dear god), and Volcarona has specially defensive Roar Moltres. Gholdengo has none of these issues. Blissey gets worn down and runs out of Softboiled PP, or just gets setup on and killed by Fightinium Z. Unaware Clodsire gets worn down too easily to even DARE be considered a counter. Ting-Lu has a 75% chance to get OHKOed by +2 Steelium Z after a single spike, and OHKOed by Fightinium Z outright after a nasty plot, not even mentioning how Focus Blast (accuracy willing) will 2HKO after setup and is always run on anything not Steelium Z. Specially defensive Moltres shouldn't even be considered a check, it's OHKOed by +2 Ghostium Z and Shadow Ball is a 2HKO. Gliscor gets OHKOed by Steelium and Ghostium, OHKOed by raw Make It Rain, and easily 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, even after a Protect. Need I go on? Assault Vest Alomomola is the only real Pokemon who can beat Gholdengo 1v1, and unelss you haven't yet realized, this isn't healthy.

Unless you’re running speed investment which have significant cost to doing and involves giving up bulk that allows it to enter often and stick around so easily, Gholdengo is going to be outrun by many of these defensive pokemon who can trade health to bring it down. Moltres outruns most bulky variants and Mystical Fire ensures it lives the follow up Z, Gliscor admittedly trades itself but is able to bring it into range to be picked off by a revenge killer. Spdef Garchomp can pivot in and threaten to slash most of its health off, Landorus-T can pivot in and do the same as it NPs, and there’s probably more I’m not even thinking of.

And of course, AV Mola works well in tandem with these Pokémon (and in general works well) so you can form a good core that covers this. Not that it’s necessary. AV Mola is so popular because ladder loves Mola in general. Even without Ghold it’d be everywhere.


POINT 3: Its typing, on top of its ability, is fucking stupid.
Everybody and their mothers agree with this take, and if you don't, you're lying, ragebaiting, or a genuine loaf of bread. Back to my statement from Point #1, the core of what makes Gholdengo unhealthy, and overall broken, is this core concept: Ghold switches in on Defog, Ghold sets up on switch to check as check takes damage from hazards Ghold denied removal of, and one of two situations happen:
1. Ghold drops Z-Move or just uses shadow ball, and your check is gone, opening a gaping hole in your defensive core.
2. Your check is AV Alo, in which you click flip turn on the Shadow Ball or Nasty Plot and switch into something that outspeeds and OHKOs it, then Ghold switches out (this process repeats until either Alo is worn down by Shadow Balls and max hazards, or the battle ends).
This is not a healthy dynamic for the tier, and it genuinely blows my mind why Gholdengo hasn't been at LEAST suspect tested yet.

First of all telling people that if they disagree “you're lying, ragebaiting, or a genuine loaf of bread”, is doing nothing for your argument except hurting its possible credibility. Resorting to petty remarks and insults is only going to ensure people don’t want to hear what you say.

But also, yes, GaG is a terrific ability. No, it isn’t broken or unhealthy.

The interaction between it and Defog is a lot more nuanced than you’re trying to make it out to be. Teams that are so weak to hazards that they immediately have to Defog them away first chance they get are flawed in the first place. It’s not Ghold’s fault. Because that WILL just invite Ghold in to start slamming. There are many ways to build teams that are not extremely hazard weak without going too hard in the builder, and there are tools and strategies you can use to limit or deny them. Cinderace is particularly a good Pokémon right that fits well on various styles, and not only does it check Gholdengo nicely but it also helps against hazards.


  • []I am not blowing anything out of proportion, as I will include the calcs now. [/]
[]
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 576-678 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:moltres: Moltres

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 466-550 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:gliscor: Gliscor

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 612-721 (173.8 - 204.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 516-607 (146.5 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
[/]
  • []for the non-believers in 252 Modest Z, someone will eventually use it in tour to high success, and when the cat's out of the bag, you'll come running, telling me I was right.[/]

Listing a bunch of calc in a vacuum does nothing btw. You’re either dropping your offense match up by losing all the bulk that lets it set up easily or you run some bulk but give up speed and still end up losing to the stuff I mentioned above. You don’t really need to run the extra power because frankly it’s gratuitous. Standard bulky NP is almost better against bulky teams anyways due to its resilience and ability to check many balance mons whether it’s Pex or Ferro, Spdef Heatran or Slowbro/Glowking, bulky MScizor, Clefable… like all modest does is beat a couple things that Bulky doesn’t immediately. But Bulky NP just needs to play a little longer to wear down checks into range to be picked off. AV Mola? Lure it in with another mon to knock off and then it’s free KO at +2. Ting-Lu? No recovery so you can choose to use combined attackers to wear it down into range to be picked off at +2 with Z.

Also be careful throwing around claims you don’t actually have a basis for, such as “someone will eventually use it in tour to high success” which assumes no one has ever thought to try it after all this time, and that it will have crazy success. All you have done here so far is theorycraft and act snide in the belief you’re right objectively, sarcastically telling people to argue why you’re wrong while insinuating you’re right.

If/when the Mon runs such a set to consistent, concerning results, then we can talk about it. But as it is now, Gholdengo does more good than harm and pushes building to be more thoughtful when building balance and BO. Instead of relying on lazy cores and strategies, there is a focus on more innovation and proactive methods that don’t just use passive fat squads. It also glues team building and soft checks a huge range of threats in one slot and opens up more building options alongside it. Name me another mon this good that checks all of Lele, Mega Medicham, Kartana, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, Melmetal, Slowking-G… all in one slot. It doesn’t do it all alone but it significantly relieves pressure on teammates this way.

DBD already covered the other major stuff in their comment above me, and they’re right completely. I’m not even sure why you brought up Sticky Web at all when it’s nowhere near relevant and is a super gimmicky, fishy and inconsistent playstyle (as it almost always tends to be).
 
imo the only real wraparound argument u can make for a ghold ban is that av alo is too overbearing and that it makes teambuilding extremely unskilled. av alo is a necessity due to how good z steel dengo is, but like dbd said there isnt a very easy way to just remove gholdengo from the tier without radical consequence that may be more asinine to deal with. I think the tier at present is really heavily dominated by balances or offenses that revolve around one of two and a half regenerator mons (alo, glowking, slowbro) and blanket physical checks for stuff like pon or mlop (zapdos, corv, pex less so, the aforementioned slowbro, this one is a bit less restrictive obviously things like dnite also work decently well) which definitely lessens some diversity in the tier. that said, i don't think diversity is really struggling atm. we're seeing stuff like cind and torn (which have always been good lol) and stuff like garg and ceru really get more fleshed out on developed teams and not thrown in the bin of shitass fotm like bulk up luna which is really cool and good to see. I think there are really creative avenues available even in a fundamentally gholdengo-dictated tier, but those creative picks are allowed only due to how absurd the pivoting backbone of the tier is, primarily due to alo but in no small part to the others mentioned above. It's really strong right now to have balances that can just pingpong in and out of their free switchins to bring in brokens.

the arguments against ghold in this thread but also just in general have never really felt cohesive to me. how many games are you really getting chokeslammed by this guy? this tier is really about checking brokens in the short term, so why are we so shocked that the maximized breaker variant of the penultimate stallbreaker can blow up a check that does not have recovery anyway at +2? a cm lele clicks z and SOMETHING is dying, and if you allow gholdengo a free nasty plot, you do fundamentally deserve to lose something if you are not positioned well. there should be a tradeoff to letting oger get to +2. gholdengo is not roaring moon. it is not 6-0ing otherwise well built teams off rip with one setup. what gholdengo does do is limit the otherwise extremely strong fairies and psychics (guess who i'm talking about with THAT one!) and with its bulkier twave variants, serves to leash the threatening msciz, zamazenta, and ival. also this dude is slow as dicks and weak to most of the best attackers in the tier regardless (mlop cc yard wball hamu ceaseless etc etc) and its scarf variant is the slowest out of every common scarfer. I think removing ghold doesn't even necessarily remove the regenerator plague; there's just too much shit in the tier to warrant not having glowie or bro or alo on basically every balance or offense. of course you can make a team without them yadda yadda they arent blatantly necessary but to just be blunt they remove so much pressure that you're oftentimes relatively hard pressed to find something better to run than them. the only real mon i could see becoming much better after a theoretical ghold ban is crown, which could probably replace glowie on quite a few squads with av future sight.

this is kind of a stream of consciousness yapfest about the tier but i think that there's definitely a bit too much pessimism around the current state of the game. as for claims that ho is meta or anything i think good players should be able to immediately detect that this is just rmoon era ptsd that is utterly unwarranted except for volcarona discussion. there is room for me to be incorrect here, however. anyone who i build with can tell you i am very particular about what i consider to be good and i recognize i am fairly harsh when it comes to assessments of quality about builds or mons in particular. I do think that ghold is fundamentally a fine component of the tier, even though it is undoubtedly its most constricting element. I think the post pl survey or whenever it comes out will be interesting to see, but i honestly would be extremely extremely shocked to see ghold hit above a 3 from qualified players.


b+ ival asap btw this guy is buns @ tl green heart emojis
 
Idk why modest z Ghold is even up for discussion. It is most definitely not an issue. This is the equivalent of if people argued adamant wellspring was broken. It’s ignoring what you lose out on. Wellspring would lose access to the crucial speed tier of 350 making it far easier to revenge kill, while Ghold loses speed, and very valuable bulk. As well as taking your team’s z move. This makes ghold far easier to ko by any team with a even mild amount of offensive pressure, and makes it no longer check AoA Zama, Valiant, and Lele nearly as well, and can lose to them if hazards and offensive pressure is kept up. And before I hear about how balance doesn’t have that, yes it does. Mega lop, tusk, Lando, Terapagos and many others all can do this. And bulkier playstyle should be okay with slotting a more limited modest z ghold check as that’s what happens when you play a bulkier play style. There’s always gonna be a breaker that requires specific checks, rather it’s moon, wellspring, volc, kyurem or z modest Ghold. And modest z Ghold is one of those breakers which is not broken.

Gonna keep this part brief cause most everyone has mentioned it, but banning Ghold isn’t just getting rid of modest z Ghold, but all the other Ghold sets. All of which are even less broken than z modest. They give offensive and defensive steel that can be a good defensive piece, while maintaining pressure. Also while being able to break bulkier structures decently well, and keeping hazards up.
 
didnt read much of anything above but i see metagame discussion is active so im gonna give my thoughts on different pokemon in the meta

:gholdengo: 5/5
In my opinion this mon is unhealthy af for the metagame, ignoring all these insane steel z calcs
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 378-445 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 395-465 (102.8 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 305-359 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 220 HP / 180 SpD Melmetal: 387-456 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 360-425 (89.1 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 360-425 (105.5 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and the mon having 0 blanket checks (apart from av mola) with it basically being a russian roulette queing into the mon whether its ghost or steel z.

on top of the ridiculous calcs it gets, it also makes different the meta unhealthy through activating different pokemon:

:alomomola:
Gholdengo + another mon im gonna get to both enable alomomola to run assault vest through it being the only thing thats able to stop gholdengo on a consistent basis. This mola set has been talked about by many people to be unhealthy, annoying, and low skill, ect with its ability to get free momentum on almost anything. Gholdengo enables this sets usage and without ghold and the mon im bout to get to, i dont think this set would be a thing.

:gliscor:
ghold also enables gliscor to be broken through limiting the meta's defoggers/removal that would otherwise beat gliscor with the main example being corviknight. Although corviknight still somewhat has a place in the meta, it isnt able to fill its previous role as a defogger thats able to beat gliscor and was ultimately one of the big reasons gliscor is balanced in different metagames without gholdengo.

------
on to the next mon


:volcarona: 4.5/5
This pokemon provides next to nothing to the meta yet puts literal chains on the teambuilder forcing teams to overprep for it to the max. Not only does this mons z move set barely have any good checks, but it also forces its checks to run niche moves with the sole purpose of beating it: example being brave bird on moltres with it being the only moltres thats able to stop sub z volcarona, and also this may come as a surprise to many but the main "check" people claim may make it balanced is toxapex, when in reality toxapex actually loses to every sub volcarona set with sub lefties stalling the hell out of it unless pex is able to predict every turn, and sub z just blowing it up after getting +1 swarm.

+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 222-261 (73.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 114-135 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

only reason i dont have this mon at a 5/5 is because of the low ndpl usage for sub z which i do believe contributes to my point cuz i believe the reason people arent running it, is because its overprepped or via people using liquidation aqua jet mola, and brave bird moltres.

------

:kyurem: 3.5/5
Although i would probably vote dnb on a kyurem suspect, i do see the argument to be made for it to be banned. This mon can be pretty overwhelming to prep for with new techs like hp fire coming out. In conjunction with sub z, or just sub in general this mon is very hard to prep for because of how different the checks are, im not even sure if this has any blanket checks ngl but the only thing holding it back from being broken is how a lot of pokemon offensively check it most notably being zamazenta who can come in on kyurem a lot of the time and is able to easily force it out which is very helpful considering not all the time boots are ran on kyu. I also think once mixed sets start getting ran on kyurem, people will come to realize that it may not be as healthy as people think for the meta.

mb if theres any mistakes idrc enough to proof read ts :victini:
 
Explain how the tier would be without Gholdengo, and I'll listen to the ban arguments myself. If you can paint a picture of a good tier without it (last time, without it the tier was worse, but it innately was) then I'll get on board. Numbers and specific scenarios don't move me when Gholdengo itself is much more than that.
This is a counterproductive philosophy when it comes to tiering imo. It is reasonable for Ubers + LC, but not for usage based tiers, especially OU. Showing how the tier would be better is a near impossible standard to meet as anything beyond the most obvious stuff is always going to be speculation. The focus should be whether or not Gholdengo is problematic in the current metagame.

If Gholdengo is unhealthy / broken then suspect and ban it, otherwise don’t. SVNDOU is likely going to exist for another year and change and will have a post generation life. If the metagame without Gholdengo is worse than what it is now it can always be suspected back in. There is precedent for that.

The onus is on the ban Gholdengo crowd to demonstrate it is broken, but having to convince everyone that the metagame that follows is where the standard gets ridiculous. I don’t have an opinion on Gholdengo, or other seemingly controversial Pokémon such as Alomomola, Gliscor (?) and Volcarona. Saying ‘prove the following metagame would be better’ is just counterproductive.

I don’t have any comments or opinions on the metagame itself as I am nowhere near qualified nor experienced enough to weigh in. If something is broken, unhealthy, or whatever, just ban it. If one Pokémon is holding the OU metagame together then that suggests to me that there is a good chance something is likely worthy of tiering action.

OU isn’t Ubers. Stuff is expected to be somewhat broken and overcentralized there. That should not be the case here. I’m not sure how well things translate for OU to Ubers, but the last OU survey indicated that the metagame is developing in a way the playerbase doesn’t like as a 6.0 enjoyability score from the qualified playerbase is around the lowest score I’d consider to be ‘ok.’ I’m sure there will be another survey after NDPL, but it doesn’t matter how competitive a metagame is if nobody enjoys playing it.

Waterpon survived its suspect following that survey, but if the next one yields similar results some suspect should probably follow. OU has a lot less ‘ethereal’ shit to worry about than any other ND tier. It is the flagship and the size of the playerbase + preferential treatment means that there isn’t really a reason to not suspect something if there is a reasonable level of support imo. I have not seen people arguing that Ghold is what is holding the metagame together, just that it isn’t broken. To an outside observer, this doesn’t seem like a Zygarde situation where the tier becomes near unplayable without its defensive presence.

Fwiw, I do agree that Ghold is much more than numbers. There are few Pokémon that shape and centralize a metagame around itself simply by existing to the degree Gholdengo does. It may or may not be banworthy, but speaking personally, I tend to avoid metagames centralized around it as the dynamic is one that I don’t enjoy even if it isn’t inherently ‘uncompetitive or broken.’ Again, to reiterate, I have no opinion on Gholdengo itself or any of the other controversial Pokémon mentioned. However, as an outsider, the survey results are concerning and should the trend continue I don't see how don't at least heavily consider a suspect on something following the next survey. NDOU should be a tier that its playerbase enjoys, not one that has a high activity floor because it is the default and has a massive amount of tour representation and the rewards that come with that.
 
:volcarona: 4.5/5
This pokemon provides next to nothing to the meta yet puts literal chains on the teambuilder forcing teams to overprep for it to the max. Not only does this mons z move set barely have any good checks, but it also forces its checks to run niche moves with the sole purpose of beating it: example being brave bird on moltres with it being the only moltres thats able to stop sub z volcarona, and also this may come as a surprise to many but the main "check" people claim may make it balanced is toxapex, when in reality toxapex actually loses to every sub volcarona set with sub lefties stalling the hell out of it unless pex is able to predict every turn, and sub z just blowing it up after getting +1 swarm.

You don’t need brave bird on Moltres. Roar phases it out (unless it’s past pokemon but at that point you should be prepared for that situation), and using aggressive play to get up rocks goes a long way too. Sub Z just loses to Pex in most circumstances but also any team with good prep can minimize it well enough. Sub+Lefties drops a lot of instant kill power without Z and will struggle to do much if rocks go up, which is an aspect I feel you’re not considering. Yeah, if rocks are kept off it’s scary as heck but that’s a big if, and requires good commitment in the builder to support this and actually needs skill to pull off. I just don’t see Volcarona as a problem right now.

I’m also not sure why we’re talking BB Moltres and Liquidation Mola when both of these, as far as ladder goes, are very uncommon choices.

(Talked about Ghold and most stuff you brought up I went over, especially why Modest is neither broken nor that great in practice so I won’t dwell)


:kyurem: 3.5/5
Although i would probably vote dnb on a kyurem suspect, i do see the argument to be made for it to be banned. This mon can be pretty overwhelming to prep for with new techs like hp fire coming out. In conjunction with sub z, or just sub in general this mon is very hard to prep for because of how different the checks are, im not even sure if this has any blanket checks ngl but the only thing holding it back from being broken is how a lot of pokemon offensively check it most notably being zamazenta who can come in on kyurem a lot of the time and is able to easily force it out which is very helpful considering not all the time boots are ran on kyu. I also think once mixed sets start getting ran on kyurem, people will come to realize that it may not be as healthy as people think for the meta.

I’m also confused why Kyurem of all things is here when I haven’t heard any notable complaints about it at all, and while it’s doing okay in high level play, it’s not particularly noteworthy as hard to handle or limiting. Glowking, Volcarona, AV Mola, Melmetal, Spdef Moltres, like there are checks there and plenty of sturdy enough offensively checks that even bulky teams can slot in. Maybe there’s something I’m missing but I don’t get it.
 
I’m also not sure why we’re talking BB Moltres and Liquidation Mola when both of these, as far as ladder goes, are very uncommon choices.
yeah sooo i havent seen a single av mola in ndpl without liquidation and i also havent seen a moltres without brave bird and my team have used both those mons a combined like 5 times probably- ndpl player, manager, supporter
Roar phases it out (unless it’s past pokemon but at that point you should be prepared for that situation)
sure if you play better than your opponent in the endgame you're able to win against volcarona without brave bird but that also just goes both ways lol theres a reason brave bird is seeing usage in pl and not roar
Sub Z just loses to Pex in most circumstances but also any team with good prep can minimize it well enough.
idk if u just disregarded the calcs i posted but here u go
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 222-261 (73.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 114-135 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

also the whole point is volcarona requires too much prep in the builder and id like for you to point out what extra prep in the builder you want apart from making like every single mon on a team not setup fodder to volcarona which is literally my entire point about having to overprep for the mon
Sub+Lefties drops a lot of instant kill power without Z and will struggle to do much if rocks go up, which is an aspect I feel you’re not considering.
i mean all i did was say it beats toxapex because people think of toxapex as this unkillable wall to volcarona when thats not the case, y are u pre-assuming im not considering that it loses kill power lol
about stealth rocks, a lot of volcaronas partners main duty is to keep rocks off of the floor such as treads and hatterene which means in most cases rocks will never be on the floor unless the volc user is bad
I’m also confused why Kyurem of all things is here when I haven’t heard any notable complaints about it at all
ever since this ndpl game concluded https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-870676 its been the talk of the town in nat dex cord so i gave my opinion on it
 
Speaking of Gholdengo, I wanna bring attention to a set that I've been screwing around with lately.

Gholdengo @ Electrium Z
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Nasty Plot

AKA the "Screw AV Alomomola Up Big Time" set. You Nasty Plot on their switch and hit them with the Gigavolt Havoc for a guaranteed OHKO.

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Alomomola: 648-764 (121.3 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It can heavily punish teams that heavily rely on Alomomola to defend against Special Attackers. I tend to pair this set with some Ting-Lu check and a dangerous Special Attacker that hates AV Alo (like :volcarona:). Most teams over-relying on Alomomola end up crumbling the second it falls victim to this Gholdengo.
 
okay we're gonna have a serious talk about gholdengo for a second so listen in

HOW THE DISCOVERY OF MODEST Z GHOLDENGO BROKE THE TIER
(yes this is a real set check magic matchmaking)
For a while, I've still been seething over Ogerpon-Wellspring and how it sucks for the tier, and I still believe this is fact, but it's not to the level of Gholdengo. Gholdengo has multiple things going for it that, on their own, wouldn't be banworthy, but together, form an unhealthy Pokemon for the tier's playability. Why do I think this? Well...


POINT 1: Z-Moves break this Pokemon.
Z-moves have been a questionable generational gimmick since Sun & Moon in both VGC and singles, we all know this. They have pushed many a Pokemon over the edge into the realm of broken, they make pretty much anything into a stellar Knock Off absorber, and they make giving setup sweepers a free turn extremely terrifying. With Gholdengo's ability to switch into Defog so freely, it's usually really easy to get a free turn to setup. On a Pokemon built like this, a free turn is a death sentence for your opponent. The thing about Gholdengo is that the Defog that it blocks allows that one spike to chip your check switching in, allowing it not only a free Nasty Plot, doubling its threatening 133 base special attack, but your check coming in will likely be chipped by the same hazards that Gholdengo was able to safely keep on the field for zero cost, allowing it to be OHKOed by a boosted Z-Move. This is the core of what makes Gholdengo banworthy.

POINT 2: It only has one real answer.
Now, is this one answer arguably the most prevalent Pokemon in the tier? Yes, I won't deny that. Do you know why it's the most prevalent? Because it can 1v1 the most unhealthy wallbreaker in the tier and actually win. Assault Vest Alomomola is so popular not only because it checks Gholdengo so easily, but because it can check Volcarona, Choice Scarf & setup Tapu Lele, Mega Charizard Y (although shaky), Iron Valiant, Mega Latios (bar special defense drops), and so much more. However, the thing about these other Pokemon is that they have other checks. For example, Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele can be checked by Slowking-Galar, Mega Charizard Y has a solid few checks (including Stealth Rock like dear god), and Volcarona has specially defensive Roar Moltres. Gholdengo has none of these issues. Blissey gets worn down and runs out of Softboiled PP, or just gets setup on and killed by Fightinium Z. Unaware Clodsire gets worn down too easily to even DARE be considered a counter. Ting-Lu has a 75% chance to get OHKOed by +2 Steelium Z after a single spike, and OHKOed by Fightinium Z outright after a nasty plot, not even mentioning how Focus Blast (accuracy willing) will 2HKO after setup and is always run on anything not Steelium Z. Specially defensive Moltres shouldn't even be considered a check, it's OHKOed by +2 Ghostium Z and Shadow Ball is a 2HKO. Gliscor gets OHKOed by Steelium and Ghostium, OHKOed by raw Make It Rain, and easily 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, even after a Protect. Need I go on? Assault Vest Alomomola is the only real Pokemon who can beat Gholdengo 1v1, and unelss you haven't yet realized, this isn't healthy.

POINT 3: Its typing, on top of its ability, is fucking stupid.
Everybody and their mothers agree with this take, and if you don't, you're lying, ragebaiting, or a genuine loaf of bread. Back to my statement from Point #1, the core of what makes Gholdengo unhealthy, and overall broken, is this core concept: Ghold switches in on Defog, Ghold sets up on switch to check as check takes damage from hazards Ghold denied removal of, and one of two situations happen:
1. Ghold drops Z-Move or just uses shadow ball, and your check is gone, opening a gaping hole in your defensive core.
2. Your check is AV Alo, in which you click flip turn on the Shadow Ball or Nasty Plot and switch into something that outspeeds and OHKOs it, then Ghold switches out (this process repeats until either Alo is worn down by Shadow Balls and max hazards, or the battle ends).
This is not a healthy dynamic for the tier, and it genuinely blows my mind why Gholdengo hasn't been at LEAST suspect tested yet.
Now, I'm sure I'll have a lot of people disagreeing with me, saying "you're blowing it way out of proportion" "Modest Z isn't even a real set" among other things, and I just want to get a few things out of the way.
  • I am not blowing anything out of proportion, as I will include the calcs now.
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 576-678 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 364-430 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:moltres: Moltres

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 466-550 (121.6 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Moltres: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:gliscor: Gliscor

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 612-721 (173.8 - 204.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 516-607 (146.5 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 387-456 (109.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor: 258-304 (73.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
  • for the non-believers in 252 Modest Z, someone will eventually use it in tour to high success, and when the cat's out of the bag, you'll come running, telling me I was right.​
If anyone still wants to argue their case of why this absurd being of string cheese isn't broken, please, by all means, plead your case. I would love to hear your excuse of why we should keep the tier unhealthy.​
Wow Pokémon players sure do love comlaining
Dw I’m in the same boat as you, just that for me it’s wellspring

Anywaysss

Z breaking any walls? My days I wonder what walls it KOs without +2!
Most of the time, if Ghold’s switching into a mon which gives it free set up, that Mon WILL be switching into a teammate which can threaten Ghold like molt, lando, chomp or Lu. All of which outspeed ghold a vast majority of the time except ting Lu.
“Holding Z turns a moon into a stellar knock absorber”, I find it very ironic you complained about ghold’s own typing later own. I wonder what to use to deal with ghosts hmmmmm. Here are some knock calcs

:samurott-Hisui: 252 Atk Samurott-Hisui Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 198-234 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (yes I made sure ghold’s holding a ghostium)
:iron valiant: 4 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 124-146 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (I don’t even know why I included this, there’s no way you’re staying in unless you predict them to nplot. As well this calc is using mixed IVal, not full physical attacking IVal)
:kartana: 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-226 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:kingambit: 252+ Atk Kingambit Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 252-296 (80 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it can sucker to avoid focus miss, basically it’s forcing a 50/50 if it’s focus miss, and wins outright if it isn’t)
:scizor-mega: 0 Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-166 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO (I chose the bulky set on purpose)

The only knocker which outright loses to ghold is like clef.

Now your next point
No it doesnt
The only way it can’t be answered anymore is if you let it not be answered, basically if you let it set up.
I’d recommend this to anyone, if your team has a way to beat an unboosted version of a mon but not the boosted version of it, most of the time it’s best to just not let it set up.
Stuff like chomp, lando, molt, tusk, Lu, etc deal with unboosted ghold just fine and depending on the sets, even boosted ghold as well.
Sp def lando’s mainly picking up popularity for hex ghold but it’s also pretty good against normal nplot ghold if you keep it healthy enough. It always acts as a safe switch in to ghold if it’s healthy.
“Your opponent will chip down lando prior”, don’t let it be chipped. Obv what im saying is easier said then done. I’m not feeling like going into detailed battle advice but ofc there’s more nuisances.

If you really do use mons like lando or chomp, improve your plays. And like I said prior, don’t let it set up.


As for your third point, you just gave vacuum calcs. Like my previous point. If your setting up with ghold into smth which is free set up, your opponent WILL switch out into smth which can threaten Ghold. And unboosted ghold is not enough to deal with most mons on the switch, let alone checks like Lu or lando.
Is a molt realistically gonna let a Z Ghold set up and use never ending nightmare? Hell no.
Will a Gliscor just sit there and not eq? Hell no.
Will a ting ou just sit there and not eq? Hell no.

You’re doing no good by applying unnecessary negativity on the tier by calling a defining mon which is fine broken.
And I’m not gonna take your previous “bad grammar, incorrect essay format” responses as a valid answer, give actual counter arguments, please.
 
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yeah sooo i havent seen a single av mola in ndpl without liquidation and i also havent seen a moltres without brave bird and my team have used both those mons a combined like 5 times probably- ndpl player, manager, supporter

sure if you play better than your opponent in the endgame you're able to win against volcarona without brave bird but that also just goes both ways lol theres a reason brave bird is seeing usage in pl and not roar

idk if u just disregarded the calcs i posted but here u go
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 222-261 (73.2 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 114-135 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

also the whole point is volcarona requires too much prep in the builder and id like for you to point out what extra prep in the builder you want apart from making like every single mon on a team not setup fodder to volcarona which is literally my entire point about having to overprep for the mon

i mean all i did was say it beats toxapex because people think of toxapex as this unkillable wall to volcarona when thats not the case, y are u pre-assuming im not considering that it loses kill power lol
about stealth rocks, a lot of volcaronas partners main duty is to keep rocks off of the floor such as treads and hatterene which means in most cases rocks will never be on the floor unless the volc user is bad

ever since this ndpl game concluded https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-870676 its been the talk of the town in nat dex cord so i gave my opinion on it
I can kind of understand where the ban kyurem sentiment is coming from but I really dont think the best example of this is a game where a kyurem...beats a team that relies on ferro to sponge freeze dry. Yes, a high roll + tech item baiting ferro out helped, but this replay just shows kyurem doing extremely normal kyurem things again a team that matches up badly into every kyurem set
 
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