Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

This is just not the case and I can’t tell if it’s just ignorance/misinformed

If you’re going to accuse someone of this-

also intel tells me kyurem fell of in svou

Maybe don’t make claims that are the same “ignorance” you accuse others of. Kyurem has been on a tear and been very successful in current SV OU. It never “fell off”.

the tier is probably fishy now than before lol with shit like ghost z ceruledge getting real usage or polteageist. I just think the whole thing about Garg is kinda irrelevant given that Garg wasn’t even used that much and that even if someone mu fished with something like sub crown for example it’s easily outplayed as shown in the replay above.

People exploring new ideas like “Z Poltergeist Ceruledge” is considered fishy to you? Also your replay showed a mid ladder game of an opponent who made several strange plays, like switching out an effectively dead ZardX instead of giving it up to get Iron Crown in afterwards, which would’ve realistically just won btw if it had been Stored Power. Their Tera timing also hurt them.

past surveys are irrelevant given the new advancements with these pokemon like running hp rock volcarona or even steel z Ghold/modest Ghold. There’s a reason they’re on the survey and that’s because they’re being complained about quite a bit lol for good reason.

HP Rock Volc just shows the point, it can never fit enough coverage for everything it wants to hit. It’s threatening as hell, but tech sets like that give up a lot and won’t do nearly as much if the match up they’re for doesn’t show up.

Surveys are relevant even if they’re past. Modest does not move the needle on Ghold nearly as much as you think, and as Toxic pointed out has trade offs and issues of its own. You can deny those issues but they don’t just go away.

Surveys include the most relevant and talked about Pokémon. It doesn’t automatically mean something is a problem. Kingambit was included on surveys for a while despite clearly not being an issue post Tera.

Toxic already went over Modest Ghold and why they feel it’s exaggerated, and I don’t feel it’s necessary to repeat what they said since I agree.

i was referencing tech in terms of Pokémon not just sets of different already viable Pokémon to lure, it’s not possible to bring anything out of the norm without your team just getting blown out of the water by some threat due to how restricting building is rn having to prep for ghost/steel z Ghold, z Volc, pon, znite, ect. Defensive Tera helped give outs or blankets for things like this but now it’s just not possible and building becomes repetitive and robotic.

not sure why dnite is even on this list since it isn’t restrictive at all, or hard to prep for.

Wellspring… I don’t like being petty cuz it’s dumb but I’ll give in just a bit and say “that ship sailed and we have to live with it”. Even as the world’s biggest Pon hater, I can’t say it has no counterplay, and tools like Dragonite, Zamazenta, Mega Scizor and Tornadus T exist to check it. Hell physdef Glowking is a decent soft check that has useful value elsewhere like checking Gliscor and scarf Shifu, Mega Lop and handling most Iron Valiants.

I’m not saying there’s no restrictions, I’m not saying it’s perfect (literally said so at the beginning) but I find the degree of such to be exaggerated.

Thanks John NatDex I wish in ndpl I had your PHD in nat dex to put to good use for building these perfect teams that have no weaknesses instead of the metagame discussion thread

Cut it with the snark and strawman comments please. I never said anything about building perfect teams or that it was easy. Your entitled to not like the current metagame, but coming around and pushing your views as a matter-of-fact statement and dismissing opposing views just isn’t doing anything for discussion.

yea bro I love my kyurem getting assaulted by alom, slowbro and all the other defensive water type threats in the tier on the other hand kyurem with hp fire doesn’t have as much counterplay and was much more successful in this meta than Tera fire tb was in that meta by a long shot lol

My point is that it does nothing for the offense match up at all, whereas Tera blast helps in both defense and offense. It’s also wild to make claims about “much more successful” given small sample sizes as HP fire is a recent innovation while TB was from an old meta a long time ago. It’s a legitimate set but let’s not exaggerate how good it is. It comes with trade offs.

i recall tier leaders/council members saying the only reason it would be banned is because of z splash

I never heard or saw anything about this, so I’m assuming this was on discord which I don’t go to. Regardless it’s still pointless to include a Mon not ever tested based on a theory instead of practice.

Anyways I’ll leave it there for now because I don’t want to clog up the forum with back and forth between two people and I’ll just say this: I don’t really agree with your stance on how poor the tier is, but I respect your opinion and I do hope that what issues the tier does have can be handled with time.

 

[Wafflecopter2000]

At the end of the day balanced teams were always more popular.

i have a lukewarm take to contribute

HO was stronger and more prevalent when tera was legal, and stall was also stronger and more prevalent when tera was legal because stall could more reliably answer various HO shenanigans. Balance of course has always been around and playable but it's definitely risen in popularity in the tera-less metagame. Even if balance was relatively more popular than HO and stall when tera was legal, its also true that it was less popular than it is now.

 

[Dumpsterhead]

Hi y'all, here's a Lucario set I don't know where to put but I wanted some input on.

Lucario @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Copycat
- Me First
- Trailblaze
- Swords Dance

I don't think this set is any good, but it was an interesting idea to me. If you want to steal and fix it go ahead. The idea was using Lucario's unique combination of Me First and CopyCat to steal moves like CC, wicked blow, or surging strikes from urshifu, but I find it loses to sash or revenge killing pretty hard. There's a way to I think that Lucario could run a modified set in Gen 5 if runs Agility/Espeed over trailbaze/sword dance, but I don't play BW so it's probably ass. I can move this post if asked.

 

[ILoveGarchom]

Hi y'all, here's a Lucario set I don't know where to put but I wanted some input on.

Lucario @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Copycat
- Me First
- Trailblaze
- Swords Dance

I don't think this set is any good, but it was an interesting idea to me. If you want to steal and fix it go ahead. The idea was using Lucario's unique combination of Me First and CopyCat to steal moves like CC, wicked blow, or surging strikes from urshifu, but I find it loses to sash or revenge killing pretty hard. There's a way to I think that Lucario could run a modified set in Gen 5 if runs Agility/Espeed over trailbaze/sword dance, but I don't play BW so it's probably ass. I can move this post if asked.

Wicked blow?

 

[Wafflecopter2000]

Hi y'all, here's a Lucario set I don't know where to put but I wanted some input on.

Lucario @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Copycat
- Me First
- Trailblaze
- Swords Dance

I don't think this set is any good, but it was an interesting idea to me. If you want to steal and fix it go ahead. The idea was using Lucario's unique combination of Me First and CopyCat to steal moves like CC, wicked blow, or surging strikes from urshifu, but I find it loses to sash or revenge killing pretty hard. There's a way to I think that Lucario could run a modified set in Gen 5 if runs Agility/Espeed over trailbaze/sword dance, but I don't play BW so it's probably ass. I can move this post if asked.

broski what are you smoking because i want some

just run CC + another attack on lucario lol, what are copycat and me first supposed to do on a frail mon that is pretty slow for how fragile it is? urshifu is just gonna outspeed and ohko you

 

[Malanaki]

Tapu Bulu should get a signature move: 70 BP physical Fairy draining move. Also should get Drain Punch.
This would make this mon so much more interesting, being able to Bulk Up, and heal with all 3 attacks in Horn Leech, Fairy Drain, Drain Punch, would make this a good mon vs fat, while still being balanced out by its x4 poison weakness, bad speed, and somewhat bad SpDef bulk.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

I am hoping we move for a volcarona suspect in the near future. I wont get into the arguments, but I think everyone knows the issues and how it impacts teambuilding. And DONT bring up the hazards argument, its bs. If zardy can thrive in this tier and come in multiple times per game, so can volcarona.

Now for the main subject of my post, is there any support for a Z move suspect? I am not sure if I would consider Z moves banworthy, but I cannot overlook the way they have been severely abused over the course of the generation. While not the same case as tera, I do wonder if the mons freed by a Z move ban would make the meta overall more enjoyable. I am especially thinking about dragapult, which filled such a unique spot in the meta with its wisp hex pivot set.

When thinking about the impact of Z moves in the current tier, volcarona, gholdengo and dragonite stand out and are all mons you specifically have to account for in the builder, but with an arguably healthy presence outside their Z sets. While these mons will always find a way to be powerful, their Z sets strike a perfect balance between consistency and raw power, reliably surpassing damage thresholds which they should have no business coming close to. This is especially shown by volcarona which can reach truly absurd numbers with the pretty reliable activation of swarm. On the other hand, dragonite, one of the most potent sweepers over the generations, having access to insanely powerful stabs may be a bit over the top.

“But Z moves exist since gen 7”
Yes. Volcarona and dragonite are no stragers to Z sets, but a lot has changed since gen 7. Volcarona did not have giga drain in gen 7, dragonite did not have ice spinner or dual wingbeat, etc. Also, in gen 7, they desperately needed to break the toxapex which dominated the generation. Now that same toxapex has to deal with the most broken thing in all of pokemon: powercreep. Even with all the bans, we are still at a very high powerlevel for offensive mons. Kingambit, gholdengo, ival, raging bolt, etc., all pile on the not so many defensive options available. Considering that clodsire and especially dondozo are primarily stall mons, we did not get that many new defensive options. I would say that mola is the most significant change on the defensive side outside of the unaware whales. Other new mons / buffs are corviknight, gliscor, tinglu, glowking and terapgos. And they have A LOT to deal with already. Getting blown up by mons which really shouldnt blow them up is maybe not balanced.

I think volcarona definitely has to go, but there may also be an argument for z moves themselves, but I will admit you have to stretch it a bit.

 

[Moyashi]

When thinking about the impact of Z moves in the current tier, volcarona, gholdengo and dragonite stand out and are all mons you specifically have to account for in the builder, but with an arguably healthy presence outside their Z sets. While these mons will always find a way to be powerful, their Z sets strike a perfect balance between consistency and raw power, reliably surpassing damage thresholds which they should have no business coming close to. This is especially shown by volcarona which can reach truly absurd numbers with the pretty reliable activation of swarm. On the other hand, dragonite, one of the most potent sweepers over the generations, having access to insanely powerful stabs may be a bit over the top.

The only noteworthy case here really is Volcarona. Gholdengo is fine. Dragonite especially is fine and I’m not exactly sure why it’s mentioned next to the former two? It never will have room for all the moves it wants and has more than enough checks.

“But Z moves exist since gen 7”
Yes. Volcarona and dragonite are no stragers to Z sets, but a lot has changed since gen 7. Volcarona did not have giga drain in gen 7, dragonite did not have ice spinner or dual wingbeat, etc. Also, in gen 7, they desperately needed to break the toxapex which dominated the generation. Now that same toxapex has to deal with the most broken thing in all of pokemon: powercreep.

Uhm… Volcarona has had Giga Drain since gen5.

Also ice spinner is the only noteworthy addition for Dragonife. Dual Wing Beat is helmet and iron barbs food and not nearly strong enough at +1, not to mention prone to missing. I’m confused about how you describe Pex here as if it has fallen off since gen7, but it’s still very good in natdex formats.

Even with all the bans, we are still at a very high powerlevel for offensive mons. Kingambit, gholdengo, ival, raging bolt, etc., all pile on the not so many defensive options available. Considering that clodsire and especially dondozo are primarily stall mons, we did not get that many new defensive options.

Ival is pretty mid right now and Raging Bolt isn’t even doing that well either (both sit in b+ on the VR). They’re hardly top threats so I wouldn’t say the offensive power level of mons is crazy high. Kingambit is pretty good still but is nowhere near its Tera era peaks and is very fair and containable. There’s plenty of existing defensive tools from past gens that are still excellent, especially as some got buffed (Mola and Gliscor for example).

In short, I don’t at all agree that Z moves stretch anything too much or at all. There are some standouts who’ve pushed the line too much like Gouging, Darkrai and Roaring Moon, but they all have innately amazing traits that allow them to abuse the mechanic the way they did. We have so many balanced z move users that are very healthy for the game. Volcarona is really the only borderline Z user at this moment imo and I’m still not even sold completely if it needs to go or not.

 

[Dahness]

I am hoping we move for a volcarona suspect in the near future. I wont get into the arguments, but I think everyone knows the issues and how it impacts teambuilding. And DONT bring up the hazards argument, its bs. If zardy can thrive in this tier and come in multiple times per game, so can volcarona.

Now for the main subject of my post, is there any support for a Z move suspect? I am not sure if I would consider Z moves banworthy, but I cannot overlook the way they have been severely abused over the course of the generation. While not the same case as tera, I do wonder if the mons freed by a Z move ban would make the meta overall more enjoyable. I am especially thinking about dragapult, which filled such a unique spot in the meta with its wisp hex pivot set.

When thinking about the impact of Z moves in the current tier, volcarona, gholdengo and dragonite stand out and are all mons you specifically have to account for in the builder, but with an arguably healthy presence outside their Z sets. While these mons will always find a way to be powerful, their Z sets strike a perfect balance between consistency and raw power, reliably surpassing damage thresholds which they should have no business coming close to. This is especially shown by volcarona which can reach truly absurd numbers with the pretty reliable activation of swarm. On the other hand, dragonite, one of the most potent sweepers over the generations, having access to insanely powerful stabs may be a bit over the top.

“But Z moves exist since gen 7”
Yes. Volcarona and dragonite are no stragers to Z sets, but a lot has changed since gen 7. Volcarona did not have giga drain in gen 7, dragonite did not have ice spinner or dual wingbeat, etc. Also, in gen 7, they desperately needed to break the toxapex which dominated the generation. Now that same toxapex has to deal with the most broken thing in all of pokemon: powercreep. Even with all the bans, we are still at a very high powerlevel for offensive mons. Kingambit, gholdengo, ival, raging bolt, etc., all pile on the not so many defensive options available. Considering that clodsire and especially dondozo are primarily stall mons, we did not get that many new defensive options. I would say that mola is the most significant change on the defensive side outside of the unaware whales. Other new mons / buffs are corviknight, gliscor, tinglu, glowking and terapgos. And they have A LOT to deal with already. Getting blown up by mons which really shouldnt blow them up is maybe not balanced.

I think volcarona definitely has to go, but there may also be an argument for z moves themselves, but I will admit you have to stretch it a bit.

On phone so imma just respond to the whole message. I have heard people talk about Z Moves suspect test in the past, but nothing came of it. The thing with Z moves is that they're a core mechanic of the National Dex identity in a way. There are some weird overlaps created because gen 8 and gen 9 can use Z moves when they weren't built with z moves in mind. Gholdengo and Raging Bolt come to mind here. We did have more stronger users in the past like Roaring Moon and Gouging, but they would have been broken with or without z moves. My point is that z moves aren't really an issue, I think the issue is with the mons in genera. I also think the mons u listed as examples of powercreep are fine. Sure, Kgb and dengo were more dominant with tera around, but now they're fine imo