Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

Not sure how this will go over was im the first newer player to post however, I think Lugia could be really strong. It loves heavy-duty boots and Groudon getting spikes decreases its passivity with its ability to click whirlwind. And now that calls gone and Yveltal is not as relevant I think it could eb strong.
caly being gone is nice but lugia suffers from the issues it had other gens, it is a great korai check in theory but if it gets turned on switchin it just loses multiscale, which btw has the same issues it always had (forces you to heal too often, which especially sucks with the nerfed PP, adds more passivity, weak to status, forces you into HDB). also does nothing to zacian and dusk mane (so even if you check ultra you can be beaten by non-ultra sets) and hates the random toxics things like arcs and pdon can have, which means the range of things it can check isn't that big.

tl;dr: multiscale is really exploitable, weak to random status and any chip really.
 

The one and only buck

Banned deucer.
Enough time has passed since the latest bans and I feel that we're close to a more stable metagame, so I wanted to give my top 5 best Pokemon in the metagame right now ~

#1 :sv/groudon-primal:
Big bad Primal Groudon ranks at #1, and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that plays this metagame. This Pokemon got enormous buffs this generation, both defensively in the form of Spikes / Will-O-Wisp and offensively in the form of Terastal and the fact that Arceus cannot outstall Precipice Blades with Recover anymore. From defensive Spikes / Stealth Rock + Toxic to mixed Tera Fire Fire Blast / Eruption to the countless Swords Dance variations, this Pokemon can truly do it all and you can never go wrong with one in your team.

#2 :sv/arceus-ground:
Arceus-Ground comes in second, being the clear-cut best Arceus form in this metagame. Traditional sets such as Swords Dance, Calm Mind, and bulky Stealth Rock / Defog continue to define large portions of the tier. However, Arceus-Ground received three meta-defining new toys that truly cement it as one of the top dogs. Dragon Dance allows Arceus to invalidate revenge-killing attempts from Marshadow and Zacian-C completely, whilst retaining crazy offensive power with Tectonic Rage / Tera Ground. Power Gem invalidates Ho-Oh, priorly known as the single best check to specially offensive Arceus-Ground sets. And last but not least, Taunt shuts down stray Toxic and Whirlwind, fundamentally redefining counterplay for both offensive and bulky sets.

#3 :sv/necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-DM is back in style, being the stellar glue it has always been. Whilst not as omnipresent anymore due to the Zacian-C nerf, its utility remains nigh-unmatched as a Stealth Rock setter, status spreading machine, and Xerneas / Zacian-C check. Now that it can invest in SpD again, Dragon Dance sets become all the scarier, using the likes of bulky Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Dark as setup fodder, especially when combined with a favourable Tera type such as Grass or Fairy. Solgalium Z sets add to its repertoire as well, trading the ability to Terastallize for a one-time nuke that severely dents the likes of Arceus-Dark, Primal Kyogre, and Arceus-Ground.

#4 :sv/ho-oh:
Ho-Oh clocks in at number 4, courtesy of gluing together a very large amount of teams at the moment. Ho-Oh basically checks half the tier, including titans such as Koraidon, most Necrozma-DM, non-Rock move Primal Groudon, Zacian-C, Xerneas, Dragon Dance Arceus, and Eternatus. This list expands when you factor in Tera types; e.g. Tera Grass Ho-Oh is a solid check to the likes of Primal Kyogre and Zygarde-C, while keeping Xerneas and Zacian-C on their toes due to now being resistant to Electric. Ho-Oh frees up the Defog slot from Arceus formes as well, allowing the latter to run far more dangerous Taunt or setup sets.

#5 :sv/koraidon:
Choice Scarf Koraidon is the best revenge killer in the metagame, limiting the likes of Zacian-C, the Necrozma formes, Xerneas, and Dragon Dance Arceus formes and Mega Salamence. After all, no other revenge killer is capable of outspeeding +1 Arceus and Mega Salamence, whilst being capable of retaining momentum with U-turn and maintaining a good amount of damage output (especially with Tera Fighting). However, Koraidon is not just a revenge killer; sets such as Swords Dance Tera Fire and Swords Dance Z-Dragon are insanely difficult to check properly, as demonstrated in the calcs posted above this post. This makes Koraidon an elite wallbreaker on top.

Numbers 6-10 are more subjective in my opinion. Mine at the moment would probably be something like #6. Eternatus - #7. Arceus - #8. Xerneas - #9. Zygarde-C - #10. Zacian-C. Besides these, stuff like Mega Salamence, Ultra Necrozma, Arceus-Fairy, and Yveltal also hold top spots in my eyes. Overall, I really enjoy building / playing in the current metagame, and while I do think there are a few problematic aspects still (Taunt Arceus and Terastal come to mind), the diversity is a real treat.

We will be working on the Viability Rankings, Sample Teams, Speed Tiers, and Set Compendium threads in the upcoming period so stay tuned for that!
I feel a bit lost about koraidon’s rank. Truth being told, it’s much more difficult to check than the other 4 above it. Could you explain it to me pls?
 
Not sure how this will go over was im the first newer player to post however, I think Lugia could be really strong. It loves heavy-duty boots and Groudon getting spikes decreases its passivity with its ability to click whirlwind. And now that calls gone and Yveltal is not as relevant I think it could eb strong.
I don't understand this post at all, in honesty.

My opinion of Lugia is that HDB Lugia is almost entirely outclassed by HDB Lunala. Lunala literally does more than 90% of what Lugia does, except it's a bit slower, Ghost instead of Flying (why either of them are Psychic type are completely beyond me still), and has more options available to it.
  • Lunala benefits from the exact same things that you stated.
  • Lunala has the ability to run multiple different sets, which prevents it from being too predictable, and it can easily switch up a few of its moves and still accomplish its role.
  • Lunala can check things without using status, and yet it can also use status moves, including Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp (which Lugia doesn't get).
  • Lunala gets Will-O-Wisp, which Lugia does not, and literally every useful utility move that Lugia gets, Lunala does as well. The only exception is that Lunala does not learn Dragon Tail.
  • Lunala cannot be trapped by Gothitelle, whereas Lugia is completely dead against it unless it runs Dragon Tail over Whirlwind, which means that Lugia no longer handles substitute users or Xerneas in much of any capacity.
  • Lunala can spinblock without using Terastal.
Additionally, Lugia's playstyle has a ton of flaws that directly affect its ability to function properly:
  • Taunt Arceus both outspeeds and completely and utterly shut downs Lugia. At least Lunala has 137 Special Attack and a STAB typing that hits most of the big threats at least neutrally.
  • Roost and Recover were nerfed in gen 9, and Lugia already had a tendency to blow through most if not all of its Roost pp in previous generations just doing its job, especially when running HDB. Now that flaw is painfully obvious.
  • Lugia is incredibly vulnerable to taking a random toxic when switching into things.
  • Kyurem-B and Zekrom exist in this tier, and they pretty much always just shred Lugia. Lunala's Shadow Shield is immune to Mold Breaker and furthermore Lunala is not weak to Electric or Ice, so it does not have this issue.
Furthermore Yveltal is very much a threat in this metagame. Tera Dark + Dark Aura is a really serious combo. And yet, Lunala still has options to still accomplish its goal. It can even run Tera Fairy with Moonblast if it wishes.

I feel a bit lost about koraidon’s rank. Truth being told, it’s much more difficult to check than the other 4 above it. Could you explain it to me pls?
Please use the Simple Questions thread in the future for inquiries of this sort, but I'll give you my best attempt at an answer anyway.

Though.... are you sure you looked at the VR correctly? It's ranked S- at the time of posting, with it being considered the same rank as Arceus-Ground and below Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Primal Groudon. That's 2 pokemon above it (arceus-ground is in the same rank, not above, since the ranks are sorted alphabetically), not 4.

Trust me, the fact it's ranked above things like Ho-Oh and Zacian-C should be telling about how difficult it is to get into the S ranks in a Natdex Ubers VR. That power that Koraidon has is what makes it S- rank.

What distinguishes the subranks is pretty subjective, so its hard to give a definite answer outside of "Primal Groudon > NDM > Koraidon = Arceus-Ground in terms of overall metagame impact," which seems fair enough to me given the sheer utility of those two Pokemon and the nature of Arceus-Ground.
 

The one and only buck

Banned deucer.
I don't understand this post at all, in honesty.

My opinion of Lugia is that HDB Lugia is almost entirely outclassed by HDB Lunala. Lunala literally does more than 90% of what Lugia does, except it's a bit slower, Ghost instead of Flying (why either of them are Psychic type are completely beyond me still), and has more options available to it.
  • Lunala benefits from the exact same things that you stated.
  • Lunala has the ability to run multiple different sets, which prevents it from being too predictable, and it can easily switch up a few of its moves and still accomplish its role.
  • Lunala can check things without using status, and yet it can also use status moves, including Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp (which Lugia doesn't get).
  • Lunala gets Will-O-Wisp, which Lugia does not, and literally every useful utility move that Lugia gets, Lunala does as well. The only exception is that Lunala does not learn Dragon Tail.
  • Lunala cannot be trapped by Gothitelle, whereas Lugia is completely dead against it unless it runs Dragon Tail over Whirlwind, which means that Lugia no longer handles substitute users or Xerneas in much of any capacity.
  • Lunala can spinblock without using Terastal.
Additionally, Lugia's playstyle has a ton of flaws that directly affect its ability to function properly:
  • Taunt Arceus both outspeeds and completely and utterly shut downs Lugia. At least Lunala has 137 Special Attack and a STAB typing that hits most of the big threats at least neutrally.
  • Roost and Recover were nerfed in gen 9, and Lugia already had a tendency to blow through most if not all of its Roost pp in previous generations just doing its job, especially when running HDB. Now that flaw is painfully obvious.
  • Lugia is incredibly vulnerable to taking a random toxic when switching into things.
  • Kyurem-B and Zekrom exist in this tier, and they pretty much always just shred Lugia. Lunala's Shadow Shield is immune to Mold Breaker and furthermore Lunala is not weak to Electric or Ice, so it does not have this issue.
Furthermore Yveltal is very much a threat in this metagame. Tera Dark + Dark Aura is a really serious combo. And yet, Lunala still has options to still accomplish its goal. It can even run Tera Fairy with Moonblast if it wishes.


Please use the Simple Questions thread in the future for inquiries of this sort, but I'll give you my best attempt at an answer anyway.

Though.... are you sure you looked at the VR correctly? It's ranked S- at the time of posting, with it being considered the same rank as Arceus-Ground and below Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Primal Groudon. That's 2 pokemon above it (arceus-ground is in the same rank, not above, since the ranks are sorted alphabetically), not 4.

Trust me, the fact it's ranked above things like Ho-Oh and Zacian-C should be telling about how difficult it is to get into the S ranks in a Natdex Ubers VR. That power that Koraidon has is what makes it S- rank.

What distinguishes the subranks is pretty subjective, so its hard to give a definite answer outside of "Primal Groudon > NDM > Koraidon = Arceus-Ground in terms of overall metagame impact," which seems fair enough to me given the sheer utility of those two Pokemon and the nature of Arceus-Ground.
Ah ic, ty.
 
Hey, NeonJolteonWasUsed and I are currently working on a set compendium for the tier. It can be accessed here. It's not quite done, but we have an impressive amount of sets included thus far.

In other news:

Code:
Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
EVs: 112 HP / 144 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Steel / Ground / Ghost
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Judgment
With the addition of Taunt, Arceus-Ghost can now run serious suicide lead sets.
You may be asking "but it's an Arceus, can't something better do the job?", but in reality, the answer is no.
  • Arceus outspeeds or Speed ties virtually every other dedicated anti-lead in the tier, including opposing Taunt Arceus. This allows it to pre-emptively Taunt them to definitively stop them from achieving progress.
  • Magic Coat allows Arceus to bounce back Taunts from Deoxys-S, Grimmsnarl, or other Arceus or even bounce back hazards (most notably Sticky Web) from opposing leads that may be running Mental Herb.
  • Because it is Ghost-type, it blocks Rapid Spin, which, while somewhat niche, greatly increases its matchup against teams utilizing the move, especially if preserved after it is set
  • Arceus-Ghost also has usable Special Attack, and because of Spooky Plate and the fact Ghost is largely unresisted, it actually hits pretty hard. Even though it doesn't get Spikes, after setting Stealth Rock, Arceus-Ghost can pretty much just keep spamming Judgment until it dies, which can actually leave a sizable dent in many teams given the power of Judgment and the general bulk courtesy of being an Arceus forme.
  • Judgment is special, meaning it doesn't activate Glimmora's ability.
The only real shortcoming of it is that it is much more passive against Normal types, notably meaning it completely folds to Nuzzle Smeargle.
The 144 SpA here ensures that Mega Sableye is 2HKO'd by Judgment, which means that Mega Sableye, the premier Magic Bounce user in the tier, has an incredibly shaky matchup against this lead.
The Tera types here hardly matter, but Steel does let Arceus-Ghost block Mortal Spin and Ground can let Arceus-Ghost prevent Nuzzle Smeargle from paralyzing it, thus allowing Arceus-Ghost to consistently Taunt it and prevent Smeargle from achieving hazards.

Bonus points for if the opponent incorrectly predicts that you are leading with a setup Arceus-Ghost, since that's just free hazards for you and gives an excellent opportunity to inflict some nice chip damage on their team.
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Gen 7 Ubers is a top 3 metagame for me, I really enjoyed the balance of the whole tier and also the creativity and diversity between all of the sets and strategies you were able to implement. Not to mention a lot of the best mons in that tier were extremely flexible, diverse, and most importantly gave me a dopamine rush every time I used them. Gen 8 Ubers to me personally felt like the exact opposite of that experience, the generation didn't really even start off with a real ubers tier due to the dex cuts and even by the time we had reached DLC2 the metagame ended up a state that I just did not care about like the strenuous force that Shadow Rider put onto the tier. Seeing that Nat Dex Ubers is here it feels like a proper continuation of what was left off from USUM Ubers and I'm very excited for it. That said I've only recently began to dip my toes back in so I don't have much to add on.

I wanted to build with Rock Polish PDon mostly just because it was one of my favorite sets from before. Typically one of the first partners I'd consider would be Xerneas in this slot since it can help to check stuff like Mega Mence and PDon put pressure onto many of the steels that could check it but since Zacian was basically new to me I wanted to give it a try in this slot. On top of that it also offers innate speed control without needing to use scarf and with Tera I wanted to try Tera Dark since it can allow me to Crunch past things like Skeledirge and Dusk Mane potentially. Dondozo seemed like it would be good if I was going in with my pretense of knowledge from USUM, being able to check many of the tiers extremely scary physical sweepers like Mega Mence, PDon, Zyggy, Zacian and probably a few others. I mostly wanted to give it a shot and it bounces off of PDon as it allows me to keep it healthier throughout the match so I can use it more aggressively. Another mon I was intially scared about (I didn't even realize it was banned at the time I made the team) was Shadow Rider so I slotted in Scarf Yveltal to help check it. It's also incredibly strong and now with tera can reach end game situations where it just cleans with Dark Pulse. I wanted an actual defogger for my Yveltal and PDon since I didn't know how prominent hazards were going to be so I just stuck with my usual glue option of Groundceus. It doesn't do much but be a psuedo physical check that can react faster then Donbozo. Finally I added Dero as a rocker and because I felt like team getting weak to POgre. I still haven't seen one yet but I wanted to make sure I have outs and generally in bulkier metagames like what I imagined this tier to be, having a Toxic user is extremely nice as it can allow you to put timers on certain mons.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 100 SpD / 156 Spe
Mild Nature
- Rock Polish
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 216 Atk / 40 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Play Rough
- Crunch
- Swords Dance

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rock Slide
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 32 Def / 224 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Foul Play
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- U-turn

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 24 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Defog

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1790092778
 
Just a quick post to add that Rayquaza now functions properly and is legal with Dragon Ascent once again. Happy laddering!
Sadly, Rayquaza is still bugged. It cannot Terastallize with Dragon Ascent. This is in contrast to its ability to Dynamax with Mega Rayquaza Clause last gen (or more notably if you mega something else first).

The fix has been sitting in a pull request on GitHub for practically a month now, I'm not sure what's up with it.
 
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Clas

pixibursting
is a Tiering Contributor
Sadly, Rayquaza is still bugged. It cannot Terastallize with Dragon Ascent. This is in contrast to its ability to Dynamax with Mega Rayquaza Clause last gen (or more notably if you mega something else first).

The fix has been sitting in a pull request on GitHub for practically a month now, I'm not sure what's up with it.
This would be because its under Mega Rayquaza where this is how it should work - best for now to rename it to Rayquaza + Dragon Ascent. I presume this is known and being worked on right now, though.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
why exactly was dynamax not allowed? what coding restraints exactly? is it because of storage issues, implementation difficulties, or what?
After reading the threads, here is the TLDR:

"Hey y'all, we can't code this in yet AG, we're busy fixing the rest of the tiers in the new generation."

"Okay, that kind of sucks, but that's okay. The tier would be better with Dynamax, but we'll see in the future!"

"You know, let's open a Policy Review thread."

Policy Review Thread

"Maybe we should ban gimmicks altogether to make coding AG easy in the future!"

"Cool, except Megas and Z-Moves and Terastilization, for now that's cool. But in future generations, maybe Terastilization will be gone as well. Because God knows that Game Freak loves making these gimmicks!"

Back to the AG thread

"Hey guys, I'm some random user that is new to the site. Here is screenshots of me implementing Dynamax into National Dex! And I'm going to post the code publicly. Let me know if you want anything else!"

"PS! Coder here, I have some minor nitpicks. Oh no, that means we can't use this at all. Shoot! Whoopsies! We won't do anything!"

"Okay, how do you want me to implement the fixes to those nitpicks? I have some versions here:"

Silence

"Welp, I guess we simply can't implement Dynamax to AG/Ubers after all!"

And that's how we got here now.
 
I mean, adding dynamax would just make the tier less fun(Did anyone even enjoy gen 8 ag??). I fully think the devs know this and is making excuses to keep that braindead gimmick away from natdex which I support.
 

R8

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
About dynamax:
First of all, while this question is legitimate, it should have been asked in the SQSA thread instead of derailing the thread of a metagame that would probably have banned the mechanic anyway. If you have any other questions, ask them there or pm me instead.

Even though Dynamax was not implemented in natdex initially for coding restraints, but also because natdex's identity never was well defined enough to handle new generations either - as early on, people assumed that GameFreak would bring back the national dex, seeing how big the backlash was.

The big question was the following: how do you define what is legal, and how should said legal stuff behave in the game? In terms of what should be legal, It seems like lot of people playing natdex formats seems to agree that old gen held items, moves, pokemon and abilities should be able to be brought into the battle (although there also was an argument made about removing old gen items and moves, like in this post made by Kalalokki in the PR thread).

But how are these going to behave, or in other words, how should we define natdex mechanics? And from this question stems the whole dynamax vs other generational gimmicks "controversy". Old items and moves mechanics are quite easy to decide : just make them work like in the games where they existed (assuming you could still reach the in-game conditions to use them, because what would be the point of allowing defunct items?). But for Pokemon, which still exist in SV games, how should you decide?

National Dex is trying to emulate what the metagame would be if no Pokemon, item, move or ability was cut from the game. What would Pokemon SV be if everything was transferrable? Note that if you assume working item transfer, that would induce the existence of Z-Moves and Megas (barring Mega-Ray, which is its own whole can of worms that might deserve its own post)... but not dynamax.

For these reasons, I believe the tldr above is really misleading:

After reading the threads, here is the TLDR:

"Hey y'all, we can't code this in yet AG, we're busy fixing the rest of the tiers in the new generation."

"Okay, that kind of sucks, but that's okay. The tier would be better with Dynamax, but we'll see in the future!"

"You know, let's open a Policy Review thread."
For your information, this Policy Review thread (link) exists from my initiative, and I guarantee I would have posted it eventually even if there wasn't this whole mess around dynamax, just because in my opinion natdex's identity just isn't defined rigorously enough, and to this day there are mechanics I am still quite skeptical about (Ex: primals not being able to dynamax in gen8 but able to tera in gen9). While yes, it is true that one of the big reasons why dynamax wasn't in natdex early on was because of coding constraints, I personally think that if you want a sturdy definition for National Dex capable of handling next generations it is just not realisitic to try to include every in-battle mechanic that aren't even bound to the teambuilder in National Dex formats, not only due to programming constraints but also because the number of mechanics we would have to decide arbitrarily might expand to a dumb degree, and with it potential new controversies about how new things should work.

Policy Review Thread

"Maybe we should ban gimmicks altogether to make coding AG easy in the future!"

"Cool, except Megas and Z-Moves and Terastilization, for now that's cool. But in future generations, maybe Terastilization will be gone as well. Because God knows that Game Freak loves making these gimmicks!"
This is misleading. The reason why dynamax is getting nuked in the first place is not even related to its status of "generational gimmick". Generational gimmicks are mentionned in the Policy Review thread for two reasons:
-It is a concept needed to define a theoretical natdex identity that would allow dynamax in non-gen8 natdex formats (See: Proposal B in the Policy Review thread)
-To not let two generational gimmicks being usable on the same Pokemon at the same time, taking the Mega-Rayquaza + Z-Moves case as a precedent, and to reduce the amount of interactions that would have to be arbitrarily decided.

Otherwise the term "generational gimmick" is pretty much an arbitrary definition, which exist to name whatever new toy GameFreak invented to make their games more appealing.

Back to the AG thread

"Hey guys, I'm some random user that is new to the site. Here is screenshots of me implementing Dynamax into National Dex! And I'm going to post the code publicly. Let me know if you want anything else!"

"PS! Coder here, I have some minor nitpicks. Oh no, that means we can't use this at all. Shoot! Whoopsies! We won't do anything!"

"Okay, how do you want me to implement the fixes to those nitpicks? I have some versions here:"

Silence

"Welp, I guess we simply can't implement Dynamax to AG/Ubers after all!"

And that's how we got here now.
Idk what the coders told you but this is definitively not the reason why this didn't get implemented.


Hopefully that cleared some things up. Apologies for derailing the thread even more than what it should have, but I felt like this deserved an answer.
 

ant4456

I COULD BE BANNED!
About dynamax:
First of all, while this question is legitimate, it should have been asked in the SQSA thread instead of derailing the thread of a metagame that would probably have banned the mechanic anyway. If you have any other questions, ask them there or pm me instead.

Even though Dynamax was not implemented in natdex initially for coding restraints, but also because natdex's identity never was well defined enough to handle new generations either - as early on, people assumed that GameFreak would bring back the national dex, seeing how big the backlash was.

The big question was the following: how do you define what is legal, and how should said legal stuff behave in the game? In terms of what should be legal, It seems like lot of people playing natdex formats seems to agree that old gen held items, moves, pokemon and abilities should be able to be brought into the battle (although there also was an argument made about removing old gen items and moves, like in this post made by Kalalokki in the PR thread).

But how are these going to behave, or in other words, how should we define natdex mechanics? And from this question stems the whole dynamax vs other generational gimmicks "controversy". Old items and moves mechanics are quite easy to decide : just make them work like in the games where they existed (assuming you could still reach the in-game conditions to use them, because what would be the point of allowing defunct items?). But for Pokemon, which still exist in SV games, how should you decide?

National Dex is trying to emulate what the metagame would be if no Pokemon, item, move or ability was cut from the game. What would Pokemon SV be if everything was transferrable? Note that if you assume working item transfer, that would induce the existence of Z-Moves and Megas (barring Mega-Ray, which is its own whole can of worms that might deserve its own post)... but not dynamax.

For these reasons, I believe the tldr above is really misleading:


For your information, this Policy Review thread (link) exists from my initiative, and I guarantee I would have posted it eventually even if there wasn't this whole mess around dynamax, just because in my opinion natdex's identity just isn't defined rigorously enough, and to this day there are mechanics I am still quite skeptical about (Ex: primals not being able to dynamax in gen8 but able to tera in gen9). While yes, it is true that one of the big reasons why dynamax wasn't in natdex early on was because of coding constraints, I personally think that if you want a sturdy definition for National Dex capable of handling next generations it is just not realisitic to try to include every in-battle mechanic that aren't even bound to the teambuilder in National Dex formats, not only due to programming constraints but also because the number of mechanics we would have to decide arbitrarily might expand to a dumb degree, and with it potential new controversies about how new things should work.


This is misleading. The reason why dynamax is getting nuked in the first place is not even related to its status of "generational gimmick". Generational gimmicks are mentionned in the Policy Review thread for two reasons:
-It is a concept needed to define a theoretical natdex identity that would allow dynamax in non-gen8 natdex formats (See: Proposal B in the Policy Review thread)
-To not let two generational gimmicks being usable on the same Pokemon at the same time, taking the Mega-Rayquaza + Z-Moves case as a precedent, and to reduce the amount of interactions that would have to be arbitrarily decided.

Otherwise the term "generational gimmick" is pretty much an arbitrary definition, which exist to name whatever new toy GameFreak invented to make their games more appealing.


Idk what the coders told you but this is definitively not the reason why this didn't get implemented.


Hopefully that cleared some things up. Apologies for derailing the thread even more than what it should have, but I felt like this deserved an answer.
90% of this was irrelevant to my point because I don't have any problem with the Policy Review thread. It was cool that you did that, because at minimum conversations should be had.

I don't have any problem with questioning the point of questioning gimmicks in a tier, go ahead.
It's not about what coders told me, you can read the AG thread and see this all. Of course it's not a literal one-to-one, because I TLDR'd it.

The two major problems was how the priority of gimmicks worked in the code, and adding a second check box for the player. The person who created the screenshots and had the code was waiting for the PS! coders/community to give feedback for how they should have changed the priorities and code it in, and got crickets. That makes the excuse to have not solved this problem this much later negligible.

Howw/which gimmicks should be legal in what tier is a valid discussion to have, but especially now that it's challengable only, NatDex AG should have every gimmick for the sake of having that exist for people to mess around with. NatDex Ubers should have a discussion about if it wants Dynamax Clause or not, rather than "actually we can't implement it because (bull)"

Again, this is my opinion:

I think National Dex Ubers (and future generations of NatDex AG) should have a conversation about how to implement/not implement things like Dynamax, Terastilization, Megas, etc. to their discretion and how they see the tiers' identity. However, the reason of coding shouldn't be taken that seriously.
 

Eledyr

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ant4456,
These two posts are very dismissive towards PS! coders. This is a simple warning for now, but me and the NatDex moderation team urge you to change your attitude, as we will no more tolerate it. For now, if Dynamax is deemed to be not implementable in NatDex, whether it is Ubers or AG, then we have to deal with it. Only, and I say ONLY, when this problem will be solved, then a serious conversation about its restriction may be engaged. Plus, National Dex's philosophy about implementing new mechanics IS discussed, in the mentioned Policy thread.
 
Pokemon starting to have gimmick on gen 6 above, now in gen 9 there's total of 4 gimmick : mega, z-moves, dmax, and tera

unlike mega and z, dyna and tera doesn't need any item to implement, all mon that doesn't equip mega stone or z-crystal can do it (barring few likes zacian, zama, eternat, etc.)

i think it would be better for generational gimmick that doesn't need item like dyna and tera can only be used in the same generation that was introduced, gen 9 cannot dyna, gen 10 cannot dyna and tera, and so on

because if natdex keeps all generational gimmick, can you imagine how complicated it be in generation 12? lol
 

Take Azelfie

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I remembered that Groudon actually got Spikes now and so I wanted to build something revolving around that. It originally started off as a Mega Mence team but I decided I wanted to drift more off into a semistall playstyle more then the Balance I had going on before. I started shifting towards a heavy amount of whirlwind moves just due to how much breathing room it allows the archetype to exist without worrying about stuff like GeoXern or Ekiller to take advantage of a resting POgre for example. I've really like Offense Ho-oh in this meta too, it just seems like it's coverage overall is very hard for most things to switch into and between Regenerator and Heavy Duty Boots it allows me to continually apply pressure throughout the match with less worries of chipping down my own teams. And in other situations he's pressuring stuff like Zygarde with Whirlwind from taking advantage of me. Eternatus helps to force Koraidon into 50/50s, check Marshadow, Zacian, and Dusk Mane. The extra firepower is much appreciated from the Z move as well. I'm not too sure if TSpikes is extremely solid? It feels like when I have it in there are better things for me to be doing then setting up TSpikes, not to say it hasn't been helpful like getting guaranteed chip on PDon or Zyggy but maybe you can run a different coverage move in that slot? POgre, especially with Tera Fairy feels like the perfect wall for this type of archetype. Most things don't want to take Scald and RestTalk + Roar have prevented so many mishaps. It feels like it takes the full advantage of the hazards and the wall breakers we have available as a win condition. Marshadow is mostly here for speed control, before I testing somethings like Urshifu and Iron Bundle but I decided that I was getting too creative and I felt like this team desperately wanted more reliable EKiller answers. I typically like Sash as emergency button for removing boost off of sweepers but Choice Band is pretty good too. Low Kick doing about 45 to PDon is really solid when you factor in the extra forms of chip it could be taking. I finally added Ferro since I had no POgre answers, still haven't actually encountered one but it also just adds a defensive steel type. Stealth Rock and Leech Seed are all nice at passively dissuading mons from trying to use it as set up fodder. Team feels a little whack but it's gone like 10-3 so it's got some merit, probably someone else could shift some pieces around and make it better.

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 240 HP / 28 Atk / 88 Def / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb

Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Atk / 76 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind

Eternatus @ Firium Z
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Dynamax Cannon
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Low Kick
- Shadow Sneak
- Ice Punch

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 40 Def / 168 SpD
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Protect
 

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