Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Meet1Dude]

Special attacking is a surprise sure, but it's not effective compared to just physical attacks. You could go Eruption though, or Overheat on more defensive sets, but not Earth Power or Thunderbolt (Precipice Blades already 2HKOs most , and Stone Edge OHKOs ).

Moveset-wise, the set is fine. The EVs are too physically defensive IMO, so you struggle to check things like . There's a smogon analysis for defensive btw.

Defensive NDM

Necrozma-Dusk Mane @ Solganium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 SpD
Tera Type: Grass
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Sunsteel Strike
- Toxic
- Morning Sun

I wouldn't run on , because of terastalizing. Tera Poison isn't good on also, as Tera Fire or even Dragon for boosted Flamethrowers/Dynamax Cannons is better. Also you're missing EVs.

Like , already has a defensive set on Smogon, so you don't need to make your own. Also there's no so you don't need max Sp.Def.

Defensive Yveltal

Yveltal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Def / 184 Spe
Tera Type: Ghost
Timid Nature
- Foul Play
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Roost

doesn't run Substitute, if you're scared of burn you can just run Aerilate-boosted Facade. You might need Roost if you do that though.

Lastly, is bad. You need or for power, as even with excellent STAB, isn't THAT strong without them. Also is extremely inconsistent, and pretty predictable too. Also that guy saying "hazards aren't common cuz of " has no idea what he's on about.



Also, just because you have a good ladder score, doesn't make what you said right.

The Special PDon was because I had a good matchup against other PDon, and PBlades and SE miss all the time, didn't want to run earthquake either because I was afraid that some low ladder player would be running GTerrain.
The Black Sludge was an oversight, I completely forgot that Tera existed, didn't change any Tera types or Tera'd any time I was paying on the ladder.
Sub on MegaMence was because I was scared of Priority, but I've only needed to bring out Mence like 3 times.
Sash on Shadow is my strange answer to Geomancy Xern, and most other setup sweeper because I don't have any phazing. I don't use Shadow as an offensive tool, which is strange and probably not great, but I have only had to bring it out 5 times.
Thanks for the advice with the EVs, will change those.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Shadow can lose if hazards are up (not so difficult considering yveltal<xern and there is too much pressure to defog.

 

[Meet1Dude]

Shadow can lose if hazards are up (not so difficult considering yveltal<xern and there is too much pressure to defog.

WHen I have been playing, Shadow has never died when it wasn't supposed to, was running Defog on Yveltal as hazard control, I Defog on the Xern switch-in, the other player goes for Geomancy as I switch or sac something, get in Shadow, and kill Xern, or at least get rid of its boosts. It's not the most conventional, but it was working for me. It helps that they always send out Xern when I have Yveltal out, and end up going for defog. If Shadow needs to be a better wallbreaker, I will probably switch to LO or Band

 

[Sami]

The Special PDon was because I had a good matchup against other PDon, and PBlades and SE miss all the time, didn't want to run earthquake either because I was afraid that some low ladder player would be running GTerrain.
The Black Sludge was an oversight, I completely forgot that Tera existed, didn't change any Tera types or Tera'd any time I was paying on the ladder.
Sub on MegaMence was because I was scared of Priority, but I've only needed to bring out Mence like 3 times.
Sash on Shadow is my strange answer to Geomancy Xern, and most other setup sweeper because I don't have any phazing. I don't use Shadow as an offensive tool, which is strange and probably not great, but I have only had to bring it out 5 times.
Thanks for the advice with the EVs, will change those.

If you're worried about PBlades missing, then just run Earthquake, and as for Stone Edge, running Rock Tomb is a viable option on defensive sets if needed. Also you shouldn't worry about low ladder strategies as both and aren't even good cheese mons.

is tanky enough to take most priority hits well, apart from 's Extreme Speed I suppose, but defensive sets do exist if you want to use them.


is capable of checking with it's good typing and natural special bulk, and has whirlwind to force it out. You can avoid Tera Electric Thunder by either using defensive alongside it, or using Tera Grass/Ground (both have their own benefits outside of this, like Grass being able to soft check and Ground being able to tank SEs from , letting you get a Toxic on it).

 

[Meet1Dude]

If you're worried about PBlades missing, then just run Earthquake, and as for Stone Edge, running Rock Tomb is a viable option on defensive sets if needed. Also you shouldn't worry about low ladder strategies as both and aren't even good cheese mons.

is tanky enough to take most priority hits well, apart from 's Extreme Speed I suppose, but defensive sets do exist if you want to use them.


is capable of checking with it's good typing and natural special bulk, and has whirlwind to force it out. You can avoid Tera Electric Thunder by either using defensive alongside it, or using Tera Grass/Ground (both have their own benefits outside of this, like Grass being able to soft check and Ground being able to tank SEs from , letting you get a Toxic on it).

Thank you, I will switch out Substitute for Roost, unless I keep running into Dittos.
I also switched the Sash for a LO and the difference is immediate.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

Underrated set: Agility + Meteor Beam Lunala

I absolutely adore this set. Agility + a setup move that functions as an amazing attack against most of the meta makes it a potent cleaner/wallbreaker at any stage of the game. +1 Moongeist Beam 2hkos super spdef Primal Groudon and OHKOS no bulk variants after Spikes chip. 200 speed EVs hits 280 which accomplishes two things: outspeeding 252spe base 90s (279) and after an Agility, +1 252+ base 120s (560 > 558)
I don't actually know if this set is underrated, but I've never seen someone else it before and it's not on the sample sets page.

Strengths:
-Surprise factor (most people don't anticipate Meteor Beam and Agility together, so they'll switch in Ho-Oh after an Agility to try and phase you out or click Toxic)
-Moongeist Beam has amazing coverage in the tier. There are two relevant Dark types and one relevant Normal type, both greatly outnumbered by the amount of Psychic type targets. One of those Dark types is weak to Meteor Beam, and the other is mutually exclusive with the only Normal type because they're both Arceus forms.
-Psyshock lets it do good damage to spdef mons like Blissey, P-Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and +2 spdef Xerneas (Meteor Beam -> Psyshock is a guaranteed KO on max HP Xerneas if they switch in on you and Geomancy)
-Meteor Beam has great coverage too; very few things can switch into it can take the subsequent Moongeist Beam well
-Faster than most unboosted Primals, EKillers, Zygardes, and Xerneas
-Good enough natural bulk to survive a lot of moves even after Stealth Rock chip (unboosted Precipice Blades, +1 Behemoth Blade, 87.5% chance to survive 252spa Origin Pulse in rain)
-After Agility, naturally outspeeds anything that isn't a scarfer above 120 base speed
-Gets lots of setup opportunities from how difficult Lunala is to OHKO through Shadow Shield or even with neutral attacks after it's broken

Weaknesses:
-Struggles to KO Arceus forms (mostly Normal and Dark), has to choose between Tera Dark for Dark and Ghost resistance and base typing for Extreme Speed immunity
-Psyshock can't cleanly 2HKO physdef Chansey
-Susceptible to getting para'd by NDM or Zygarde, neither of which are cleanly OHKOd with +1 Moongeist Beam with sufficient investment
-Inability to KO most Primal Groudon sets leaves it susceptible to being revenge killed with Heat Crash after Shadow Shield is broken. Swords Dance boosted Heat Crash OHKOs even through Shadow Shield
-Can't touch Yveltal without Power Herb, can barely touch Arceus-Dark (but without toxic, it can't damage you much in return); Knock Off can completely cripple you against Yveltal and Ho-Oh
-Meteor Beam miss chance can completely swing the game against you
-Unexpected Tera types have the chance to turn the tables on a sweep attempt
-Oftentimes needs hazards to sufficiently clean up a team (needs team support)

I didn't actually think of pairing this set with Glimmora until writing this post but they'd combo extremely well together. Glimm + AgilityBeam Lunala + Taunt Arceus (to stop the unfortunately common Defog Arceus) is a hypothetically good core, I'll try it out tomorrow.
t. 1750 on ladder

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

-Gets lots of setup opportunities from how difficult Lunala is to OHKO through Shadow Shield

Introducing: soul-stealing seven star strike. I don't think marshadow is very very used but it surely is a menace forthis set. But it looks good and fUN and i would like to try it!

 

[bumboclaat]

Introducing: soul-stealing seven star strike. I don't think marshadow is very very used but it surely is a menace forthis set. But it looks good and fUN and i would like to try it!

FWIW Tera ghost poltergeist hits harder and spectral thief is nearly as strong and since it is holding a or it can actually do damage outside of the Z move

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 304-359 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 250-294 (73.3 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Marshadow Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

FWIW Tera ghost poltergeist hits harder and spectral thief is nearly as strong and since it is holding a or it can actually do damage outside of the Z move

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 304-359 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 250-294 (73.3 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Marshadow Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All test is funny Cause this lunala is going to USE UP its item And poltergeist will be a waste. And u maybe dont want to use uR Tera. And maybe spectral thief>poltergeist because of not only the bp.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

All test is funny Cause this lunala is going to USE UP its item And poltergeist will be a waste. And u maybe dont want to use uR Tera. And maybe spectral thief>poltergeist because of not only the bp.

I did have a Marshadow try and use poltergeist on me and it failed because power herb had already been used. Not a particularly common occurance because I usually just try and keep hazards up to break sash and then tera dark to survive shadow sneak.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

Introducing: soul-stealing seven star strike. I don't think marshadow is very very used but it surely is a menace forthis set. But it looks good and fUN and i would like to try it!

Marshadow is great and very common. Solid A tier on the VR. Its combination of strong priority, a fantastic STAB combo, a great speed stat, item flexibility, Spectral Thief's utility (stealing stats and damaging through substitute), and stealth rock resistance lets it be a really potent wallbreaker. In a vacuum, it's the best Extreme Killer check in the game (although tera forces awkward 50/50s).
Its main weakness is that it's not strong for Ubers standards. If it had base 140 or 150 attack then it'd be a different story, but base 125 just isn't that strong without a boost from life orb or choice band. Sash is a noob trap set. Hazards are much more common at higher levels of play and as mentioned before, Marshadow needs all the power boosts it can get.

Example:
252 Atk Marshadow Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 326-386 (73.4 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 492-578 (110.8 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, low kick > close combat. The only interaction where you miss out on a KO because something is below the weight threshold for 120bp low kick is against Chansey, but against stall you'd still rather have low kick for its higher PP.
Seeing people use bad/meme sets like CC/endeavor sash Marshadow, scarf Kyogre, or fire punch P-Groudon just makes me sad. A very disappointed and visceral sadness.
I don't know how we can better educate new players on why these sets are suboptimal. I only realized low kick was more useful than close combat after posting a team I made in a Discord server unrelated to ND Ubers and having someone tell me why LK is better. There isn't much documentation about this meta outside the forums. Almost all the actual gameplay videos people post of the tier are temp6t-level "SALTY LEGENDARY SPAMMER GETS DESTROYED BY UU TEAM" garbage. It'd be nice if we had more well-recorded and edited content for the meta. Might bring some new talent and diversity into the tier; I've been growing more bored recently of how homogenous teambuilding can feel.

 

[bumboclaat]

All test is funny Cause this lunala is going to USE UP its item And poltergeist will be a waste. And u maybe dont want to use uR Tera. And maybe spectral thief>poltergeist because of not only the bp.

If you're running poltergeist you usually drop rock tomb not spectral thief. Yeah you don't always want to use your tera but it is there as an option and having that option is generally much better than z since it hits like a noodle unless it finds a chance to use bulk up which is a tall order.

It also doesn't really have the issues you are alluding to since is never switching into in the first place and you'd assume a tera to something out of the ghost weakness given that it is setup.


Not really a big fan of as i'm not really sure what advantages it has over . If I were to go with the idea I'd change a few things:

1) I'm not a particularly big fan of the speed tier. It should either be much higher or much lower. If you're going to invest that much speed you might as well run 204+ to hit 309 speed so then you outspeed max speed and the that speedcreep them. Also outspeeds modest which is nice. If not drop it down to somewhere in the low 220s to outspeed and at +2. The extra bulk and power due to running modest will be quite noticable.

2) Not really a fan of

which I'm assuming is for the resistance to

/

. Running Moonblast

or

/

for the toxic immunity would be better defensively. This mon really is not a stallbreaker so I don't see psyshock putting in much work as it only really has one chance to do its thing given it isn't wearing .

3) I'd change the moveset to Moongeist / Meteor Beam and 2 of Roost, Cosmic Power, Focus Blast, or Psyshock.

The best 'off the beaten path' set I ran into was

w/ Geist / Psyshock/Moonblast/Trick which did silly amounts of damage and one i'd run before the above set

 

[dtc09]

All test is funny Cause this lunala is going to USE UP its item And poltergeist will be a waste. And u maybe dont want to use uR Tera. And maybe spectral thief>poltergeist because of not only the bp.

problem is, realistically without a bulk up z-marsh's damage output is laughable. and that sucks, because marsh really really struggles to find opportunities for a bulk up, only being able to on ekiller and if you are feeling risky something it forces out

so you fail to BU up, and you can only do damage for one turn, the turn you use your z-move. not looking too good tbh

even if you BU up better to bust everything with tera ghost attacks than to SS7SS the zygarde and get cockblocked by eternatus

 

[FunnyValentine2]

Not really a big fan of as i'm not really sure what advantages it has over . If I were to go with the idea I'd change a few things:

I never considered agilitybeam Eternatus because I didn't know it had Agility. Etern has significantly better stats for that role, but I still think Moongeist Beam is a much better stab move than Dynamax Cannon and Shadow Shield has great utility for getting set up. If Eternatus got Earth Power or something, then it'd be no question, but I think their offensive movepools are roughly equal all things considered. Dynamax Cannon + Meteor Beam + Flamethrower struggles with fairy types and Etern is so much worse against Groudon because it doesn't have Shadow Shield.

1. I already am running modest.
2. I used to run tera Fairy but switched to Dark for the longevity provided by a Shadow Sneak resistance. The only defensive utility that Fairy provides over Dark is a fighting resistance (not especially useful, only scenario where that would come into play would be if I tera Dark to survive an attack from Yveltal and they try to revenge kill with Zacian CC), dragon immunity (has never come into play for me), and bug resistance (lmao). I still think that Psyshock is the best use of that moveslot. The alternatives are Focus Blast (for Arceus) and Moonblast (for Yveltal), which have their merits but I don't think that the tradeoffs are worth it. Moonblast over Psyshock gets rid of my only remotely decent way of damaging EKiller and an OHKO move for Eternatus. Focus Blast is Focus Blast. Having a 100% accurate STAB combo is very appreciated for what Lunala does. The only stall mon that +1 Lunala struggles with is Chansey; +1 Psyshock cleanly gets a 2HKO on Blissey.

I wouldn't make a post singing the praises of that set if I hadn't found massive success with it. It genuinely has won me a significant amount of games and probably has the highest K/D of any team member I've used it with.

 

[Sami]

I never considered agilitybeam Eternatus because I didn't know it had Agility. Etern has significantly better stats for that role, but I still think Moongeist Beam is a much better stab move than Dynamax Cannon and Shadow Shield has great utility for getting set up. If Eternatus got Earth Power or something, then it'd be no question, but I think their offensive movepools are roughly equal all things considered. Dynamax Cannon + Meteor Beam + Flamethrower struggles with fairy types and Etern is so much worse against Groudon because it doesn't have Shadow Shield.

1. I already am running modest.
2. I used to run tera Fairy but switched to Dark for the longevity provided by a Shadow Sneak resistance. The only defensive utility that Fairy provides over Dark is a fighting resistance (not especially useful, only scenario where that would come into play would be if I tera Dark to survive an attack from Yveltal and they try to revenge kill with Zacian CC), dragon immunity (has never come into play for me), and bug resistance (lmao). I still think that Psyshock is the best use of that moveslot. The alternatives are Focus Blast (for Arceus) and Moonblast (for Yveltal), which have their merits but I don't think that the tradeoffs are worth it. Moonblast over Psyshock gets rid of my only remotely decent way of damaging EKiller and an OHKO move for Eternatus. Focus Blast is Focus Blast. Having a 100% accurate STAB combo is very appreciated for what Lunala does. The only stall mon that +1 Lunala struggles with is Chansey; +1 Psyshock cleanly gets a 2HKO on Blissey.

I wouldn't make a post singing the praises of that set if I hadn't found massive success with it. It genuinely has won me a significant amount of games and probably has the highest K/D of any team member I've used it with.

Meteor Beam Eternatus

Eternatus @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Dynamax Cannon
- Sludge Wave

doesn't run Agility, because is already so fast. Against pokemon like you can just terastalize, and others like and have their own problems to deal with (, etc). Also this set gets outsped by things like Timid and Jolly , two mons you should usually be outspeeding (especially on an offensive set), but you can't because you're Modest, which only works on more defensive sets (i.e more HP/Defense over Speed).

 

[FunnyValentine2]

doesn't run Agility, because is already so fast. Against pokemon like you can just terastalize, and others like and have their own problems to deal with (, etc). Also this set gets outsped by things like Timid and Jolly , two mons you should usually be outspeeding (especially on an offensive set), but you can't because you're Modest, which only works on more defensive sets (i.e more HP/Defense over Speed).

I like AgilityBeam sets because they let me run Modest on strong special attackers and have more flexibility than Choice Specs. I don't think it's inherently better or worse than max speed + timid Meteor Beam on Eternatus. It's a sacrifice of immediate speed and moveset flexibility for more bulk and power via not having to run max speed timid.
I don't consider 252 timid/jolly Primals to be worth running timid over modest on Lunala for. If anything, getting outsped by them gives away their speed tier and I can plan ahead with my remaining team members around knowing their speed tier and the fact that they're not running a defensive set. For Rock Polish Groudon, I see Adamant a lot more than Jolly.
I've been using AgilityBeam Eternatus and like it so far, but I'm undecided on if it's better than Lunala.

Pros:
-Eternatus' base stats are much more minmaxed. Much better speed and HP and slightly better spatk (426 vs. 410 with investment). 130 base speed lets Eternatus invest less for a higher final stat and put the rest into HP. 132 EVs hits 329, outspeeding the rare base 100 but more importantly 252+ Yveltal and Xerneas. I'm not sure what people are running for their bulky Arceus spreads; if I knew how much they were putting into speed then I'd spec it to be above that.
-Fast enough to not require Agility in (some) endgame scenarios if faster threats like Marshadow, Arceus, Zacian, or Palkia-O have been taken care of
-Can outspeed 252+ Ultra Necrozma after Agility
-Significantly better natural bulk and a typing that actually has resistances

Cons:
-Doesn't have Moongeist Beam. Ghost is so much better of an attacking type in the tier than Dragon or Poison imo. Lunala being able to OHKO Mewtwo-Y, Giratina-O, Calyrex-Ice, and Deoxys-S without even needing a boost is amazing.
-Doesn't have a good move for EKiller either, but +1 Dynamax Cannon is a lot better than Psyshock
-Has to choose between Dynamax Cannon and Sludge Wave: D.C. can't hit fairies while Sludge Wave can't hit ground types
-Doesn't have the coverage to deal with Zacian, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, or other steel types if tera isn't available (no good move to hit Ferrothorn with but I don't see Ferro especially often)
-Pressure is a useless ability for this role, Shadow Shield is an amazing ability that affords Lunala more flexibility and opportunities
-Natural weaknesses to ground, psychic, and dragon
-Tera reliance leaves it susceptible to being toxic'd

I've been running a moveset of Dynamax Cannon, Tera Blast (Ground), Meteor Beam, and Agility; it has its own pros and cons compared to the Lunala moveset I run. TB Ground is good because I built a team that can mostly function without terastalizing other mons (paste below) and it's an incredible attacking type against Zacian, NDM, and Groudon. At +1, it has a 31% chance to OHKO super spdef P-Groudon from full.
TB Ground > Flamethrower/Fire Blast imo. Even if it costs your tera, I think having a move that OHKOs Groudon is too valuable to pass up. Ground isn't the best as a defensive tera, but it's not horrible. I like AgilityBeam Eternatus a lot so far, but I need more experience with it to determine if it's worth running over Lunala.

Team paste: https://pokepast.es/471364e17a0c086c

Three replays with that team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1987016438
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1987079999
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1987096823

 

[ANinjaDude]

All test is funny Cause this lunala is going to USE UP its item And poltergeist will be a waste. And u maybe dont want to use uR Tera. And maybe spectral thief>poltergeist because of not only the bp.

Marshadow outspeeds Lunala, so if they're sent out into each other, marshadow hits first. Also, Marshadow is a solid mon to use Tera on to increase its wallbreaking capabilities.

 

[arbiter1337]

is normalium z ekiller real or are low ladders just being low ladders

 

[ANinjaDude]

is normalium z ekiller real or are low ladders just being low ladders

Low Ladder being Low Ladder, probably with a side of Sash Marshadow too

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

what is your opinion on zygarde. I personally think it's bbroken asf and need to go. nothing can keep in check all variants between Ekiller, Coil, DDance, and even Top tiers lose to this deletebutton

 

[bumboclaat]

what is your opinion on zygarde. I personally think it's bbroken asf and need to go. nothing can keep in check all variants between Ekiller, Coil, DDance, and even Top tiers lose to this deletebutton

completely counters every variant if you're running stall and if you arn't you pressure it offensively. Yes is one of the best mons in the meta and a candidate for a suspect (though is a much lower priority than imo), but any team that gets 6-0'd by it is a bad team. If you're looking for an offensive check taunt all work. Yes it is a fantastic mon, but outside of the trapping sets, which require more team support, is rarely if ever going to start a sweep off a free turn. It needs 3-4 turns to setup and is quite vulnerable to taunt and special attacks before it transforms. Regardless of what teamstyle you run there is ample counterplay that can easily fit. If you ignore it in the builder it'll steamroll you but this isn't different from any other setup sweeper. Mons like can do far more with that free turn

 

[latios777]

One sugestion about this metagame....I think that the hability protosynthesis should be active when hard sun (Primal groudon) is up.
If clorophyll and solar power are active against Primal Groudon...why not protosynthesis?
I know that is imposible to see what happen in original game because Primal Groudon don't exist in 9 gen but seems evident that Hard sun should activate protosynthesis.
This change can't afect the tier probably in the 95% battles because protosynthesis mons aren't enough common but Flutter mane now can revenge a weakened non jolly rock polish primal groudon at +2.

 

[Eledyr]

One sugestion about this metagame....I think that the hability protosynthesis should be active when hard sun (Primal groudon) is up.
If clorophyll and solar power are active against Primal Groudon...why not protosynthesis?
I know that is imposible to see what happen in original game because Primal Groudon don't exist in 9 gen but seems evident that Hard sun should activate protosynthesis.
This change can't afect the tier probably in the 95% battles because protosynthesis mons aren't enough common but Flutter mane now can revenge a weakened non jolly rock polish primal groudon at +2.

Actually, this was tested in game through hacks, and there are evidences that Protosynthesis does not trigger under Desolate Land.

 

[entrocefalo]

Survey results
​

Hi! Thanks to everyone who participated in the survey. We received a total of 33 votes. Among these, 9 people reached the threshold to be eligible as qualified voters. Here are the results:

• Average: 8/10 for both answers where 1 represents greatly dislike (very unbalanced) and 10 represents very enjoyable (very balanced). The average value from qualified voters is slightly lower at 7.36/10, suggesting that there may be room for improvement.​

In the following summary, 1 represents a very broken situation requiring immediate action, while 10 indicates no tiering action is required, total votes are displayed in blue, while qualified ones are in green.

Zacian-C

• Average: 6.24 and 6.3 for what regards Zacian-C. No immediate tiering action is necessary at the moment; nevertheless, we will monitor Zacian-C closely in the future.

Xerneas

• Average: 3.9 and 3.72. It is evident that the majority of the player base considers Xerneas to be unhealthy. Xerneas exemplifies a deadly interaction between a powerful move (Geomancy) and the Terastallization mechanics. Therefore, tiering action will be considered.​

Zygarde-C

• Average: 5.2 and 6.18. Zygarde is not viewed as detrimental as Xerneas in the current metagame. One of the primary reasons for this is its ability to check Groudon-Primal. However, the combination of Terastallization (Fairy and Water types primarily) and its substantial bulk makes Zygarde a formidable and dangerous threat.
  

Overall, the significant difference between Zygarde and Xerneas lies in the speed at which they can snowball and influence the outcome of the game. Xerneas, in particular, often acts as a game decider, with its impact being heightened by Terastallization.


Thanks again to all who responded! If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers discord here, in this thread, or PM Eledyr or me.

 

[FunnyValentine2]

Shuckle + Eruption Groudon HO Team Report
https://pokepast.es/250714009339231b

I wasn't too serious when I made this team but it's very fun and I'm currently at 1720 on the ladder with it. I really just wanted to make a team that has both max special attack Water Spout Kyogre and Eruption Groudon. My original plan for the team was to have everything able to OHKO or at least set up on Ho-Oh (https://pokepast.es/72b8fda4316a7c29). Dropped HP ice on Groudon because I almost never used it and it didn't OHKO most Zygardes anyway. Overheat is a great move for this set. Dropped Stone Edge on Arceus because I found myself getting destroyed by Groudon and steel types way more than it was able to actually prevent defog attempts from Ho-Oh. The Mewtwo set was just bad and I never found myself doing much of anything with it. +2 Modest 252 Psystrike has a chance to OHKO standard physdef Ho-Oh but it's not good. I experimented a bit with Agility Calyrex-Ice but it was too inconsistent.

I'm very happy with the current version of the team. Mega Salamence is a midgame wallbreaker and late game cleaner that doesn't need webs to function, but still benefits from them slowing down opponents so it can run Adamant. Frustration over Double Edge to prevent Dittos from effectively reverse sweeping. I've never actually clicked Facade with it. Defog might be better against certain teams, but the only other moves I'd really consider are that and Roost. I still like the insurance against getting burned by Sacred Fire. Adamant lorb Marshadow is only slightly weaker than jolly Choice Band (105% vs. 108% minimum against Ho-Oh with Rock Tomb) and synergizes well with webs. If Shuckle gets rocks and webs up, then it beats every opposing Marshadow with Sneak unless they terastalize Normal. Spectral Thief over Poltergeist primarily because the accuracy, ability to steal boosts, and going through Substitute are still very valuable. This wasn't against a high ladder player, but in one game my opponent lead Xerneas against Shuckle, got encored into Geomancy, had Marshadow steal 3 Geomancy boosts, and forfeited. I think most of what the team does is clear enough from looking at the paste. It's Shuckle and 5 things with 252+ spatk or attack. Tera Dark on Shuckle is to survive more attacks from Yveltal, but tera Water might be better against Kyogre and Groudon counterleads.

The Arceus EV spread hits 307 speed (1 more than 252+ base 90s) and 409 HP to take less damage from Life Orb. Everything else other than the requisite 252+ attack was put into defense. The ability to outspeed and OHKO Giratina at +2 with tera is great and comes into play quite often. Groudon's attack EVs give it a 56.3% chance to KO 248 HP 252+ defense Ho-Oh with Stone Edge, and the speed lets it move before -1 fully invested base 130s. Marshadow's lower HP IV is so it takes less damage from Life Orb.

Strengths:
-Encore is an amazing move on Shuckle. Forces a lot of switches and allows for Shuckle to set up another layer of hazards or get a free switch into something else. If they switch into Groudon for one reason or another and you double switch into Kyogre, Groudon's ability will trigger first and then they'll be forced to switch something into a rain boosted Water Spout.
-If Ho-Oh uses tera Grass to survive Stone Edge, then it gets OHKO'd by Overheat/Eruption
-Final Gambit can do surprising damage and even if it doesn't, it's great for momentum
-Other than Magic Bounce, Sturdy + Mental Herb guarantees nothing can prevent at least one layer of hazards from getting up
-Enough priority to not lose instantly to Geomancy Xerneas, U-Necrozma, opposing Mega Salamence, etc.
-Forces so many switches. One bad read can instantly lose your opponent the game, especially if they don't anticipate Eruption/Overheat.

Weaknesses:
-Groudon having a -def nature hurts it a lot against Arceus, Necrozma, Calyrex-Ice, and other Groudon. I still think it's preferable to -spdef because then it'd get 2hko'd by Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam, and preferable to a fully neutral nature because it needs the ability to do as much damage to neutral targets with Overheat and Eruption as possible.
-Origin Pulse, Stone Edge, or Overheat missing can swing entire games
-Water Spout and Eruption can be dependent on hard reads against targets that are faster/have priority. I honestly barely use Eruption so any suggestions for a different move would be appreciated
-With Magic Coat Deo-S leads, Shuckle doesn't have a good way to ensure that webs don't get up on both sides
-No member of the team can OHKO bulky Yveltal. It's honestly better at removing hazards than Ho-Oh is against this team. Also has no dark resistance
-Salamence is the only thing immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes
-Bad against Melmetal trick room teams because there are only two Steel resistances, one of which is -def with no bulk
-Absolutely terrible against stall

Some calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Marshadow Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 298-351 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Harsh Sunshine: 382-451 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 248+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Frustration vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Ho-Oh: 280-331 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 248+ Atk Salamence-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 442-522 (99.5 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Two replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2007855850 (incredibly odd team but he was 1791 elo)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2005000762 (Showcase of the setup opportunities that Encore gives)
I had more but they aren't available because of the replay data issue going on currently.