• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

Had planned to do a more comprehensive post in the near future once SSNL and Trios wrap up either this weekend or next on the teams I've built and some general commentary on mons, sets, and archetypes that have had significant changes in viability since the Xern ban as enough time has passed that there have been some significant changes in the meta in my view. As for the survey results:

Enjoyment / Competitiveness: The degree to which both general and qualified voters enjoy the metagame is around what I expected. There is not any data showing how competitive the qualified playerbase thinks the metagame is though I don't see the score reaching significantly higher than the 7.2 it is currently. We will probably always have a couple of people giving low scores either accidently or because they're trolling which will drag the score down a fair bit since we have a small playerbase. Eledyr entrocefalo and Bobsican have done a great job leading the tier over the last 18 months and have taken an active role in both listening to and involving the playerbase in tiering discussions. Regardless of any frustrations I've with the metagame at various points over the course of the tiers history, that these three and Guard before them (RIP) have been excellent leaders have always meant that there is light on the horizon. Personally, when it comes to balance / competitiveness anything above 7 means the tier is in a pretty good place. It doesn't mean that there arn't things we can change which would make the meta better, but 7 is a good baseline to strive for in a SV tier.

Tera: The qualified response chart is perhaps the most apt way you can sum up how tera is viewed in most SV tiers with every answer being filled except for 5. My answer was a 3 and my feelings on tera are mixed. The metagame would likely be more competitive without tera. Though that isn't really reason enough for me to want to ban something I don't currently view as problematic despite voting to ban it in the past. We also play Ubers which does have a higher threshold for something being considered banworthy and that is before the higher threshold needed to ban a generational mechanic.

I agree with a lot of what BananaTimeZ said above. I don't feel tera is currently problematic. At this point in the meta a random tera type throwing a wrench into things is quite uncommon and frankly I've run into more issues with the occassional Thunder Wave on Ho-Oh than some random tera type. Zacian-C can be a bit silly at times and the coinflip regarding certain defensive teras would be the biggest reason for it to go. Otherwise tera is something I do like in the metagame. I'm completely fine with and would encourage the council to resuspect tera if they feel that there is enough support to merit doing so despite being unlikely to vote to ban it myself.

As a late addendum, I think it would be in the best interest of everyone for any potential tera suspect to happen following another survey in 3-6 weeks. Tera survived its intial suspect in an environment where there seemed to be significantly more opposition to its presence in the metagame than there is presently . If you are advocating for a tera ban it is in your best interest to ensure that tera has a relatively high chance of being banned as there is no guarantee that there will be a third test. I'd be quite surprised if we would be able to do a third test on tera should it survive a second.

Zygarde: The results on Zygarde are not surprising.Though I expected the general response to be higher than the qualified response it is still a little lower than I was expecting given the complaints about it. My position has not changed, it is a mon that is very easy to check naturally when building. Yeah tera means that Ice Beam on your Arceus isn't going to deal with it, but Judgement or just smacking it hard with a special attacker generally will. Zygarde really holds the meta together without being difficult to handle itself. If trapping sets rise in usage and consistency I'd certainly reconsider my position though the idea of a metagame without Zygarde's defensive presence frankly sounds terrible.

Zacian-C: I expected a slightly higher score than it received. I voted a 6 and have been thinking about that since. It both feels a little high and fine at the same time. The decision to vote 6 was more based on I'd be fine with a suspect and I'm not sure how I'd vote. Plenty of people have voiced their discontent publically as well as a couple people privately to me. If we were to suspect test Zacian-C it would be the first test we've had where I'm genuinely unsure how I'd vote at the outset. I don't particularly mind its place in the meta though at the same time I wouldn't be particularly upset if it were to leave. Previously I said I didn't have much of a perference whether Tera or Zacian-C were to be suspected. Currently I'm leaning towards Zacian-C as I'd like to give Tera some more time. That is my personal view and I'm aware that Zacian-C is not being currently considered for a suspect.

Shadow Tag: This result did surprise me. I expected a lot more polarization in the votes and frankly somewhere around a 2 or 3 from the general playerbase. Though I've made no secret of my views on Shadow Tag I unfortunately am quite bearish on it being banned via suspect. Even if the pool of voters for a Shadow Tag suspect only drew from those who responded to the survey, the results don't inspire confidence that it would be banned. We also have players who would qualify to vote for the suspect test who have not responded to the survey and it would be foolish to assume that they would overwhelmingly vote to ban it. Furthermore, every suspect attracts people who view the test as nothing more than an easy way to accumulate suspect votes on the way to a badge. These people do not touch the tier otherwise. Their votes are, of course, valid. I'm not suggesting otherwise or that this should be changed.

The reason I bring this up is that over the course of a suspect test you ladder up to 1550-1600ish. Anyone that has spent the bare minimum of time on the NDUbers ladder is well aware that the teams that one would encounter over the course of laddering is wholly divorced from the actual metagame. This is something of an issue for any suspect in NDUbers, but substantially more so with a Shadow Tag test.

The ladder is largely isolated from the negative effects Shadow Tag has on the metagame by virtue of Gothitelle being largely absent. This is a substantial difference from previous suspects as the effect that Tera, Koraidon, or Xerneas have is readily apparent. Unless one was to use a Gothitelle team themselves the chances of them running into it over the course of getting reqs is close to nil. Additionally, Gothitelle itself is likely to be underwhelming as unless you run into someone else getting reqs the chances of loading into more than a couple of good teams is astonishingly low. This leads to a misconception about what Gothitelle is actuallly capable of doing as it likely isn't going to do much of anything against the anime or persons favourite mon that happens to be an Uber + 5 NDUU mons teams that make up the majority of opponents during a suspect run. I don't want this to give off the impression that anyone who thinks that Shadow Tag should remain in the tier is a moron. For example, adem and I have discussed Shadow Tag and we disagree about whether trapping is inherently unhealthy. Though we disagree about whether Shadow Tag is banworthy I can understand that viewpoint.

I'm appreciative that Shadow Tag was included in the survey to begin with. It just kind of blows that I cannot shake the feeling that should the council decide to proceed with a Shadow Tag suspect that it is highly unlikely to get enough votes to be banned. I'm not aware of any alternative routes we would be able to take that comply with general tiering policy. A quickban or council vote is obviously out of the question. My ideal suspect would be some high ladder rating combined with a high gxe though that obviously does not jive with tiering policy.

Last Respects: I've only ever advocated for a Goth / Shadow Tag ban rather than trapping as a whole since the Arena Trap mons are horrible despite trapping being inherently unhealthy. The same applies to Last Respects. Basculegion simply just isn't there yet and currently is largely a matchup fish. If meta developments result in it becoming semi consistent I'm happy to chuck it out. It doesn't add anything positive to the tier, but it doesn't presently harm it.
 
Congrats to 09-10a for winning seasonals and deleting the post about LO Zygarde that I've had to read over 9000 discord messages about and making me do a double post.

With both seasonals and trios coming to a conclusion I wanted to make a post discussing the metagame more broadly. Before that I'd like to thank Anchor9 for both proposing and hosting the Trio tournament and R8 for hosting seasonals in addition to co-hosting Trios and providing guidance behind the scenes. National Dex Ubers has had a dearth of tournament games in recent months and it has been great to have some recently. I'd also like to shoutout Zrp200 who has been a fantastic teammate for Trios to discuss teams with and Suuicunee for subbing in and doing a great job.

I don't consider myself a top player in this tier, but I am competent. I'm not particularly competitive and enjoy building and testing teams significantly more than playing them. I didn't plan to join seasonals, but I was annoyed at not being a qualified voter for the Xerneas survey and was told top 8 or 16 in seasonals would likely qualify for future surveys so I joined my first Smogon tournament.

It has been quite a fun experience, but I really am not the biggest competitor and mentally checked out once I realized I'd be top 8 and thus qualified for the next survey despite thoroughly enjoying the meta. One of the things I didn't enjoy was feeling unable to discuss teams with many people as most of the people I'd turn to were still in the tournament. When Trios rolled around I initially did not plan to sign up though changed my mind and that has been a lot of fun despite BO1 being a horrid format.

Xerneas was banned fairly early on in seasonals and I presumed that would spurr a lot of building fervor. This has unfortunately been far from the case and a lot of teams used in both tournaments are teams from the previous meta rather than innovative ones seizing on Xerneas' absence that I expected.

This is the first public showcase of higher level play (being very gratuitous with that description at times) we have had in quite some time and these tournaments don't paint an accurate pictures of the metagame. If one was to watch replays from these tournaments they'd be left with the impression that National Dex Ubers is a stereotypical HO meta where everything else is struggling to keep up when that is far from the case. HO while good, is far from the metagame dominating force that these replays suggest.

The last and deciding game of Trios will be on Wednesday and I'm somewhat disappointed because I wanted to see the Zrp200 v Eledyr Sheeptacular.
wool.gif

Teams

Before discussing recent metagames trends and developments I'd like to post something of a teamdump. In the spoiler below I've posted two teams that I built before Xerneas was banned. Every other team was built post Xerneas ban with the last team being built on Friday. Every team listed is one I'd consider bringing to an important game. There are certainly some tweaks that can be made, but they're solid enough. The exception is the last one which was made mostly for R8 but changing one mon probably makes it fine.

:groudon-primal::ho-oh::kyogre-primal::eternatus::zacian-crowned::calyrex-ice: (Lebernatus Horse)
:groudon-primal::ho-oh::kyogre-primal::arceus-fairy::zygarde-complete::lunala: (Specs Lunala Balance)

I do not have any meaningful commentary on these teams to add beyond what was written in the teambuilding competition when these teams were originally posted. Looking at them now there are some minor changes I'd consider but they're also fine enough as is.


:groudon-primal::ho-oh::arceus-dark::ferrothorn::eternatus::ditto: (Knock Ferro Dragon Fang Eternatus Hstack)

Ferrothorn is a mon I've always quite liked, but never got around to building a good team with during the Xerneas era. Ferrothorn really only 'checked' Xerneas on paper as almost every set had a very easy way around it. This lead to a lot of the Ferrothorn teams I built being either a bit fishy or inconsistent for my playstyle at the time so I shelved the idea for the time being. Once Xerneas left the tier I decided it was time to see if I could crack the durian.

This is the first team I built following the Xerneas ban and still one of my favourites to use. It started off as what can only be described as a meme team featuring two 'fun' sets: Pain Split Giratina-O and Fire Spin Eternatus. I was trying to figure out a sixth and Bobsican suggested Ditto. I went to go test and in a sample of 20 games I loaded into TR 14 times and of the 6 other games only one was a real team, the rest were typical ladder tomfoolery. I had a seasonal set v Aninjadude the next day and quite liked the team so switched Pain Split Giratina-O for Arceus-Dark since the team was already fine enough v stall and called it there. It won because of a mistake leading to a very easy Ditto reverse sweep. Aninjadude loaded stall G2 and I'm still pissed that I didn't load the original version featuring Pain Split Giratina-O because that would have gone ballistic. I'm not going to mention Pain Split Giratina-O again, but here is a team I've made recently with it (paste). That set is fun for personal / tournament matches, but is too inconsistent into ladder tomfoolery though it is 3HKOed by Tera Steel DIB if Giratina-O is Tera Steel as well.

After that game the team still required some tweaking. It won its debut game off a misplay and matchup rather because it was a fundamentally solid team. The biggest issue the team in that iteration was offensive Dragon-types, namely Eternatus and Palkia-O. This lead to dropping Fire Spin on Eternatus for Fire Blast. Tera Dragon was also swapped for Fairy as Fire Spin is reliant on the damage boost provided by Tera Dragon to function semi consistently as a trapper. I'm happy with the state of the team currently though I'd probably tweak the Eternatus set again by dropping Fire Blast for Recover. The team becomes too weak to Arceus-Fairy if Sludge Bomb is dropped and doesn't have issues with Necrozma-DM. The Etern not having recovery is quite annoying at times and the team as a whole would probably be more consistent as a whole with it. Other changes I'd make would probably be major enough that it would impact the teams identity.

:groudon-primal::ho-oh::arceus-ground::ferrothorn::zygarde-complete::yveltal: (DD Ground Dtail Hstack)

This team was made shortly after the intial Ferrothorn team, but before the final revisions. I really enjoyed the first Ferrothorn team and wanted to explore a different direction. I've been meaning to make a triple Ground team for a while and Ferrothorn 'solves' a lot of the issues I'd ran into when giving a half hearted attempt at building triple Ground previously. It is the only actual 'good' offensive Primal Kyogre check that balance teams can turn to. I'll go into more detail later, but the other options for this role are middling at best and are only considered offensive Primal Kyogre checks because nothing else is. The other main issue that Ferro 'solved' that I previously ran into is Arceus-Ground, mostly due to Taunt and Ice Beam. Having a solid switchin to utility and special Arceus-Ground sets addressed previous issues where the matchup was awkard at best. It is a mon you can afford to be a little weak to, but not one one where you just hope not to load into when running a balance team.

Arceus-Ground is a mon I rarely use myself. This isn't due to any fault with Arceus-Ground. It is a fantastic mon, but the teams I build tend to lean on or require the defensive qualities of Arceus-Dark or Arceus-Fairy which Arceus-Ground cannot adequately replicate. It is a great jack of all trades mon, but oftentimes I need proper checks to things not an adequate one.

Arceus-Ground is a mon I don't use nearly enough and I've been meaning to build a triple ground team for a while so I built a few different versions with different sets and this is my favourite. Though the team was built around Arceus-Ground it is the most expendable member though it is great v HO. It is a pretty simple hazard stack team with Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon over Roar because Gothitelle exists and Zacian-C gets deleted either way. I've switched Dragon Tail for Toxic and switched it back a dozen times. DD is a bit unorthodox here, but I've quite grown to like it. It could certainly be replaced with something else, but it is very nice v HO and a lot of balance builds.

It is also the first time I've used this Yveltal spread which has since become my standard. The slight bulk investment lets it live a ton of hits it shouldn't with the only downside being max speed Lunala. It was just my luck that Squeeby happened to load it twice in the debut. I'll go into a bit more detail about the spread later.

:groudon-primal::ho-oh::Alomomola::marshadow::eternatus::yveltal: (Anti Floober)

It turns out R8 occasionally finds gold when rambling about the shitmon of the week. Turns out Alo is actually quite good amazing and we should listen to R8 more often. Alo is simultaneously incredibly easy and difficult to build with. Currently I've built a few Alo teams I'm happy with, but there are a lot that have been discarded because I'll finish building a team and realize that the team is far too weak to (insert common balance breaker here).

This team started as an Anti Goth team, hence the name. Other than Ho-Oh every mon is fairly Goth proof. Originally Marshadow had Pursuit and though it was a ton of fun, it ultimately made the team have a lot more trouble with Zygarde than it should. Also shoutout to 09-10a for the Eternatus set. Alo Flip Turn into Eternatus makes an otherwise quite annoying Glimm lead very easy to deal with. Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon is purely for Gothitelle and despite that it has been swapped for Toxic and swapped back a dozen times. The current paste has Dragon Tail on it so I'm leaving it there for now. If Gothitelle didn't exist Roar would be better, but it does so Dragon Tail it is.

Looking at this team after not having used it for 2 weeks I'm not sure why it has worked as well as it seems to. I was going to bring it for the Trios finals v R8 if I didn't build something new.

:groudon-primal::giratina-origin::arceus-fairy::zygarde-complete::necrozma-dusk-mane::rayquaza: (Updated ZNDM BO V1)
I was going to lump these two teams together and talk about both at the same time, but there are enough differences in terms of how they play to talk about each individually. In Trios SF Suicune used the original version of this team (paste). He quite liked it, but I felt it was too outdated and he was unlikely to load it into a 6-0 matchup (Band Ray v Mtar stall is lel ). Suicune wanting to use it again in the Finals gave me the motivation to update it. Adem is a good player who has a decent pulse on the meta while also being reasonable experimential. The only fishing both of these teams had was Zygarde's tera which was originally normal, then Dark to account for Basculegion. I've changed it to Water in the paste for people who want to use the team, but are too lazy to read two paragraphs and yell at me later that Dark is a terrible Tera Type for Zygarde.

This is my perferred team of the two. On the surface it swaps Arceus-Dark for Arceus-Fairy and calls it day, but it plays very differently. SD TR Necrozma-DM is something I've wanted to use for a while and was the last change made to the team after I realized it actually fit in pretty well. Thanks to decent paralysis support it isn't reliant on TR, but uses it as a lategame tool if needed v HO. SD also makes the team less reliant on Rayquaza to deal with stall and fat compared to DD. DD can break through Dondozo, but it requires good positioning and some chip so Necrozma-DM doesn't take too much damage before Dondozo is forced to rest. Yes it has CB Rayquaza to blast through stall but all the damage in the world can't change Dragon Ascent having 8 PP.

One last thing is that this is the first time I've used a more offensive Primal Groudon in a serious game. Usually I stick to defensive Overheat, which works well here, but I do like this sort of set on teams that can fit rocks elsewhere and arn't don't rely on Primal Groudon too much defensively. With hindsight I'd probably give Necrozma-DM a bit more speed to outspeed Zygarde as the benefit of that exceeds the low roll for Foul Play to OHKO.


:groudon-primal::giratina-origin::arceus-fairy::zygarde-complete::necrozma-dusk-mane::yveltal: (Updated ZNDM BO V2)
I thought I'd have more to say about this team, but I really don't. It plays more similarly to the original with Life Orb Yveltal being used as a breaker over Rayquaza. Sucker Punch probably fits on Yveltal on this build, but I don't know if Yveltal is the best 6th mon. The squad as a whole feels a bit shaky into HO, but I also havn't really used it since I built it three days ago and how it seems on paper isn't always the same as how it plays in game. It is also just kinda boring relative to V1 though that alone doesn't mean it is better or worse.


:groudon-primal::ho-oh::arceus-fairy::zygarde::rayquaza::lunala: (Specs Lunala Balance tweaked for R8)
Going to get this out of the way now,I would not bring in the future or to mess around with on ladder without some signficant changes. The team was made solely with R8 in mind and consequently the HO matchup was entirely ignored. If I were to mess around with this team on the ladder or bring it v someone else I'd swap one of Rayquaza or Lunala for something else. I don't know what that would be, but it is a bit too weak to HO in its current form. Defensive Primal Groudon also works fine and the main reason I settled on this set was that it could beat Goth without Dragon Tail and it provided a third breaker while still being defensively useful.

I was very nervous going into this game as R8 is both a better, more creative builder and player than I am. I said in my prediction post there isn't much point in overly prepping for R8 because R8 can bring anything. I came up with 20ish ideas for teams. This sounds like a lot more prep than I did in actuality. Most of these teams are skeleton with the team name labelled so I'd remember what the actual idea was, only 3 teams were actually complete and I didn't start to actually build a new team until Thursday.

The sole reason I even thought of such a huge number of teams was Gothitelle. The mon should be banned, but it isn't and likely won't ever be. Furthermore, Eledyr and R8 are both good at using Gothitelle to enable things with a good example being R8's semifinal game. This is the only team I've ever built with a specific person in mind. It definitely is fishing, but not absurdly so. This is very similar to the Specs Lunala team above but I didn't bring that because I didn't trust myself to play well enough to break whatever was needed before some key defensive piece went down in what was likely to be a long game.

  1. Don't be too Gothitelle weak: The starkest example of this is Ho-Oh being Tera Ghost purely for Gothitelle. The other benefits it provides are pretty minimal and almost any other tera would be significantly better. Tera Grass in this matchup would have been amazing, but it just seemed way too damn risky. I can't speak to R8's thought process in building their team, but I figured if I brought Ho-Oh and R8 brought Gothitelle whatever it enabled would probably sweep once Ho-Oh was gone. I thought about creeping Ho-Oh to 218 speed but thought it was a bit excessive and ties into the next thing...
  2. Bring very strong breakers, but be very mindful of offensive Eternatus in the builder. While I had zero idea about what R8 would bring specifically I would have been very surprised if it was anything other than a bulkier balance build. I've been building a lot of fatter balance builds recently and offensive Eternatus is amazing on them and what I expected R8 to bring. Early on I thought Band Rayquaza would be great, but I soon became very worried about relying on a breaker that would always have issues with Eternatus so decided on Specs Lunala instead. Rayquaza obviously made it onto the final squad, but it was initially CM Origin Pulse Ice Beam Rest modest Primal Kyogre. I ultimately scrapped that for Ray as I figured it would wind up being too exploitable by offensive Eternatus / Primal Groudon / Alo. This obviously ended up being a moot point since Dragon Tail Eternatus was brought.
  3. Ignore HO. This isn't something I do with most teams but since this team was solely for R8 I felt fine with this gamble. The same applied to Zacian-C though the team isn't absurdly weak to it. I wouldn't ignore HO to the degree I did next time around but I basically felt if R8 wants to bring HO or TB Ground Zacian-C ggs and well played.
  4. I built this team on Friday morning and figured I should probably do some testing on ladder. Made it 3 games in where I faced 2 terapagos teams and Ursaluna-BM TR. I realized it was a waste of time and had other stuff to do and at this point I may as well trust the team.

Metagame Trends
I'd like to talk a bit about each playstyle before touching on a few mons that have gotten significantly better or worse since the Xerneas ban. The playstyles are not listed by viability, just from most offensive to most defensive.

Hyper offense (A-/A): When Xerneas was banned I thought HO in general would get a bit worse and I doubt I was the only one. Xerneas wasn't only found on HO, but it is the playstyle it was strongest on. As a whole I don't think HO is signficantly worse if worse at all than during the Xerneas metagame. Other playstyles are better, but HO isn't worse or even close to bad. HO is more honest. As a balance player the HO matchup felt dictated more in the builder than by actual in game play. The 6th mon far too often would dictate the result of the game and that was very unhealthy. Checking the staples of Xerneas, Zacian-Crowned, Ultra Necrozma, ect were doable, but often that 6th mon would super easily clean up and there wasn't much one could do.

Today HO is generally honest, well Basculegion isn't, but otherwise I really like the place HO has in the metagame. HO teams arn't handed free wins and skillful play is heavily reward. Though I don't enjoy using HO myself, it is the teamstyle that allows for the most skill expression in game, and at times in the builder. Psyspam is also a recent development that though overrated, is good and merits mentioning. It is good, but it should not have have had nearly the usage it did in seasonals and trios. Just because I think it is overrated does not mean I think it is a passing fad. I'm sure there is a lot of development that will happen on that front in the coming months.

As a slight tangent, Kyurem-Black is very underrated on HO. HO players, all those mons that annoy the ever living fuck out of you? They either all lose to Kyurem-Black or are forced to tera and now lose to something else you're already running. It is also decent into stall and fat. It should be used more often.

Bulky offense (A-/A): It doesn't take much familiarity with the tier to predict BO would be better in a Xerneas free metagame. During the Xerneas era BO was in a wierd spot where it simultaneously lacked the longevity to handle many balance teams while also being too frail against HO. That definitely isn't the case anymore and BO is more consistent, and more importantly, able to play the game on its own terms more often than not. Giratina-O is excellent, but there is also more room to run alternate hazard removal such as Yveltal and offensive Ho-Oh.

BO feels relatively underexplored currently and I'm looking forward to see where it goes. Xerneas leaving gives a lot more breathing room in the builder to use mons that are less consistent on a game to game basis while having a higher ceiling such as CM refresh Arceus formes. These sort of mons felt near impossible to run outside of balance previously because of how tenuous the HO matchup was to begin with. Adem seems to have taken a liking to BO teams recently, but I'm hoping others do as well as there is a hell of a lot left to be discovered.

Balance (A/A-): The rating is to show that I find balance teams to be a bit better than HO/BO teams, but not by much. I'm still a balance player for sure, but I've been taking a page out of R8's book and been building a lot of fatter stuff recently. I'm nowhere near as creative as R8 is in the builder, but they often have a lot of great ideas and are great to discuss ideas with, thank you for taking the time to do so. Balances with a more offensive lean are a safer option compared to HO/BO where there the skill expression is tilted towards the building process. I'm sure in the near future I'll shift back to building more offensive balances and I'd like to build more with the CM mono Judgement sets that Adem is a big fan of. The Xerneas ban has left a lot of room for more experimential stuff to be slotted into balance rather than having to be built around.

Fat Balance (A): This is the first time I've talked about the styles and have talked about fat balances because I want to rather than feeling obligated to because I've mentioned every style. Though my fat balances are neither as interesting nor unorthodox as R8's I've really enjoyed building them recently. It is the first time since I started playing NDUbers that fatter balances are the best style. Whether that is Alo, Ferro, or just random crap they're all quite fun to build and fundamentally solid. They just need some sort of fast offensive mon, Eternatus generally tends to be the best in my experience, but Marshadow is very good as well. Shoutout to Tera Dark SpD Arceus Fairy. It has been holding half my teams together since the Xerneas ban.

Stall (B-): Stall hasn't really changed at all. Stall on the ladder and stall in a tournament are two entirely different things. On the ladder stall has a very easy time farming bad teams and people who can't be bothered to play it so stall seems a lot better than it actually is. It also benefits from a lot of people not knowing how to play v stall as well who needlessly let their wincons get toxic'd or chipped too much.

In tournaments it is not much more than a matchup fish. If you're building a good team you need some way to break defensive backbones and often times that is going to provide the means to break stall. If it doesn't it probably only takes some minor tweaks to be able to do so. Stall matches up into some HO teams but really poorly into everything else. Our breakers are generally strong enough to deal with stall teams. The thing I dislike the most about stall is its ability to overcome matchups through bad play. Most teams can, but there is only so much outplaying out can do as a stall player w/ our SF game in Trios being a pretty good example.

:quagchamppogsire::woop:789 Chalice Load:woop::quagchamppogsire:

:pmd/yveltal: Timid 32 HP / 8 Def / 240 Spa / 8 SpD 220 Spe is my current gold standard spread on LO YV. The only real downside is being outsped by Lunala, which of course Squeeby happened to bring twice the first time I loaded this in seasonals:puff: ... I don't have an issue with Timid as I've always viewed Knock Off as a utility move v fat and stall so the minor power drop is fine and have not found a calc where the 12 SpA EVs matter so far. In return you get a LO Yveltal that lives a lot of shit it shouldn't. It survives defensive Primal Groudon Overheat after one round of LO chip. It survives uninvested Arceus-Fairy Judgement after one round of LO chip and beats Bold sets if they switch in on Oblivion Wing which shouldn't be possible. It survives CB Ray Dragon Ascent. It survives defensive Primal Kyogre Ice Beam after Stealth Rock and one round of LO chip. It also always wins the mirror It also survives +1 Zacian-C Wild Charge which is quite nice for Tera Flying variants which I'm liking more and more. It is true that Tera Dark is a nuclear breaker, but LO Yveltal is already a nuclear breaker without tera and Tera Flying makes those Oblivion Wings really pack a punch while keeping Yveltal healthier. I also learned while writing this that this spread also survives Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast, just another reason why it is great.

I'm sure there is some calc I'm forgetting but LO Yveltal is a god at the moment. LO Yveltal is currently the most consistent and scariest breaker we have. If you're not running HO it probably threatens a minimum of three mons on your team. The only good switchin is Timid SpD Arceus-Fairy and that is just one set. Though a step down, defensive and scarf sets are both excellent. When people talk about how amazing Eternatus that is how I currently view Yveltal. Almost every non-stall team can fit some Yveltal set if they want and it will be consistent. Yveltal is a pretty easy S rank to me and arguably better than Eternatus due to how consistent LO is against every playstyle. A lot of the Arceus I run these days are 96+ speed solely for Yveltal. Whenever I've run Arceus-Fairy this has been my standard, but more often Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water on my teams hit this benchmark as well.

:pmd/kyogre-primal: It is the destroyer of balance and a lot of teams in seasonals/trios, including my own, just get absolutely smoked by offensive Primal Kyogre. It has some issues v HO, but those can be addressed in the builder and it is well worth supporting. I have not built it yet, but Alo+ Primal Kyogre seems like it would be a lot of fun with something like Marshadow for HO. Defensive sets are still amazing, but if you are building a balance w/o Ferrothorn you likely do not have a solid offensive Primal Kyogre check.

:pmd/marshadow: The metagame seems to be simultaneously trending towards both HO and fatter balance, both playstyles that Marshadow matches up very well into. Some people claim that CB Marshadow is great into stall, but I've never been able to make that work. Marshadow is better atm than its been in a long time. CB A+ / BU LO A- / AOA B-. AoA only works because Marshadow itself is good imo and combines the worst parts of both CB and BU LO.

:pmd/arceus-fairy: Yveltal plays a huge role in why I'm so high on Arceus-Fairy at the moment. Having an actual defensive switchin to that beast is such a relief in the teambuilder. Normally I go with 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96+ Spe with some utility spread. It is still the only Arceus form I like rocks on. If / when I join another tournament maybe I'll give CM + Gothitelle a go because it feels like it would either be inconsistent or way more effort than it is worth without Gothitelle support and Arceus-Dark as a better standalone wincon. Lately I've been using defensive Primal Ground + Ho-Oh + Tera Water Zygarde + Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy as a core and it really feels like you can plug that + almost any two offensive mons and it will probably work. Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy covers pretty much everything you'd use Arceus-Dark for except SD Primal Groudon which Zygarde handles. I nommed it for A[1] but the bottom of A+ seems alright as well.

:pmd/giratina-origin: No one should be surprised that Giratina-O is better post Xerneas. Special and Defogless sets are better than ever, but physical sets are just kinda ass. It seems nice on paper, but then you look at the metagame and you have a strongish (that is being kind) that kinda loses to everything while being forced into Toxic. Toxic isn't had but when you're forced into it because you lose to mons that you should be beating such as Primal Groudon and Zygarde it becomes an issue.

:pmd/lunala: Lunala, at least Specs sets, have only gotten better since the Xerneas ban. Yes, Yveltal and Marshadow have generally improved as well, but that doesn't really hinder Lunala at all. Neither really want to switch in and Lunala's weakness to them is so severe that sturdy answers, usually Arceus-Fairy and Zygarde, were already required. Normally I'd say requiring two mons for support should heavily count against a mon, but these are mons that would probably be considered anyways and heavily appreciate Lunala's ability to threaten every Eternatus set.

Specs doesn't really have safe switchins and doesn't tend to rely on Shadow Shield in the games where you need it wallbreak since it outspeed most of the defensive mons it preys on. This is starkly on display in my Trios Finals game v R8 where even though Arceus-Ground should have switched out, a speed boosting nature would enable it scout which move Lunala locks into and switch to the appropriate teammate. Even if Yveltal or Arceus-Dark switch in Moongeist Beam is doing enough damage that Recover turns can be exploited or it can just Tera Ghost since it doesn't need a huge amount of chip to 2HKO. Hell you can just Tera Ghost and these 'resists' are forced to recover if they want to switch in again and Lunala now survives Foul Play after Stealth Rock.

The biggest thing impacting Lunala moving forward is the degree to which Arceus formes decide to run 96+ Speed. This also impacts Rayquaza, and to a lesser extent, LO Yveltal. This leaves Eternatus, which isn't eager to switch in, as the only defensive mon which outruns Lunala. If more utility Arceus formes shift towards + speed, which wouldn't shock me, Lunala is going to have a bit of a tougher time. Lunala itself isn't really going to be worth making that change for, but LO Yveltal is a lot of the time and Lunala would be a casualty of that.

:pmd/ferrothorn: I thought about nominating this to B+ on the VR post, but decided against it. Ferrothorn itself and bulkier spikestacks are quite good at the moment, but I'm not sure if Ferrothorn itself is splashable enough. The tranqulity that comes with not having to worry about Primal Kyogre is certainly something I could get used to. Defensive Primal Kyogre generally isn't too terrible for balance teams to deal with but offensive sets are a terror. Primal Groudon is only a good check when your opponent greeds and doesn't click Ice Beam. The issue is that Primal Groudon is still better than almost anything else. Ferrothorn doesn't love taking 150 BP Water Spout, but it does take it well enough to function decently well after. Power whip does enough damage to force Primal Kyogre to respect it and makes staying in an actual risk while also covering Alomomola and Arceus Ground/Water.

The question is the last moveslot. Pre Xerneas ban I was an advocate for Protect, but currently Knock is better. It draws in Ho-Oh like a moth to a flame and lacks the issues with passivity that Protect brings and annoying Zygarde and fat balance / stall. I've also been enjoying Tera Grass a fair bit for the Ground resist and enabling Ferro to annoy Zygarde significantly more than it already does. It rarely teras anyways so the specificity is not the end of the world.


Honourable Mentions: Alomomola, Palkia-O, Ditto, Deoxys-A, Gothitelle, Necrozma-DM, Landorus-T, Chien Pao, Baculegion (it pains me to write this)

:worrycargo::worrywhirl:Caught Slipping:worrycargo::worrywhirl:
:pmd/arceus-ground: The title seems a bit harsh as Arceus-Ground hasn't had a big tumble, it is just slightly worse. Arceus-Ground is a mon I view as a jack of all trades master of none. There is usually some set that fits whatever team I'm building, but far more often than not some other Arceus forme is a better fit. If I want a defensive lean from my Arceus forme, Fairy and Dark tend to provide better support to whatever mon I'm building around. This applies to CM sets as well. I do quite like physical sets and those slot in very well as an offensive presence that still provide a decent amount of defensive utility.

Arceus-Ground is a pokemon that I've always somewhat struggled to evaluate because it just doesn't tend to fit in particularly well with the teams I build, my teambuilding style, nor my playing style. Usually I need something more specific than what Arceus-Ground able to offer and have to build around it to a degree that I shouldn't as it often exacerbates existing issues that many of my teams struggle with rather than help. Everyone is trapped by their own perspective to some degree and I am certain that applies to me with Arceus-Ground.

Even when I see how other people build and play with it, Arceus-Ground doesn't have the presence of the #4 mon in the meta. Playing against it has also felt easier than at any point in a long time even when not using Ferrothorn. I don't know what I'm missing or not picking up about this mon, but it has to be something.


:pmd/zacian-crowned: I oscillate between feeling that Zacian-C hasn't been that negatively impacted by Xerneas' departure and that it is significantly worse, currently I am heavily leaning towards the latter. Zacian-C is still unquestionably one of the best mons in the metagame, but it is so much easier to handle defensively. During the Xerneas meta these two worked in tandem to easily overwhelm their shared checks and enable the other.

Zacian-C is still an enormous hindrance to more offensive teams, but it is significantly less threatening to bulkier teams. The defensive cores of these teams now have enough breathing room as they arn't always forced to decide between checking Zacian-C and actually performing their intended roles. Ho-Oh can somewhat reasonably Defog on a regular basis v HO because it doesn't have to perserve HP to deal with both Xerneas and Zacian-C. Giratina-O and Yveltal are now fairly splashable hazard removal because they are not as frequently forced to tera to remove them and so on.

Zacian-C finds less safe entry points these days to either wallbreak or sweep. It can and will still easily do, but it actually has to work to do so more often than ever. It is still a scary mon, but it is more reasonable to check than it used to be. I like its current place in the meta, but will probably never like Tera Electric. Kyurem-Black exists.

:pmd/arceus-dark: Arceus-Dark is still a fantastic mon, but it has consistency issues that have lead to me perfering other Arceus formes more often than not and a lot of this stems from the ubiquity of LO Yveltal. During the Xerneas meta I had a preference for Wisp over Toxic. Toxic is more consistent on a game to game basis, but Wisp is a lot better into the HO teams that Arceus-Dark was on the team to help with. This is a much larger issue in the current day as Arceus-Dark is a Dark-Resist that loses to LO Yveltal without Toxic, but is much worse into HO without Wisp. Even with Toxic, Arceus-Dark has additional issues. Bold Arceus-Dark is forced to attempt to Toxic Yveltal on the switch and is liable to be kept low throughout the match which makes it easier for mons such as Ultra Necrozma to find a way to break through eventually. Timid solves the Yveltal issue, but Arceus-Dark becomes a signifcantly less sturdy check to SD Primal Groudon, one of the few reasons I'd use it over Tera Dark Arceus Fairy. R8 said that dual status was decent, but I've never used it myself and am a little skeptical since without Taunt Arceus-Dark has no means of maintaining progress against fatter balance and stall teams nor a way to keep itself free of status outside of tera.

I do quite like the mono Judgement sets that Adem has been hyping up. I'm yet to use them, but Arceus-Dark is the most appealing Arceus Forme for this set due to the lack of support required compared to Water or Fairy. Pair it with Zygarde for the SD Primal Groudon that it doesn't check very well anymore and it can go to town. Arceus-Dark is still a great Pokemon, but it has shifted from a slap this on a team mon to something that requires a bit more attention in the builder to cover its flaws.

:pmd/mewtwo-mega-y: I nommed this to drop to B+/B in my VR post and the more I think about it, even this feels rather high. In a vacuum MMY is a great mon, but outside of that whenever I try and build with it I'm always left wondering why I'm having to spend so much effort to enable MMY to do its thing relative to other breakers. It suffers from the attention Ultra Necrozma demands in the teambuilder as all the hard checks / counters for Ultra Necrozma work for MMY. It also suffers from Xerneas' departure as this has lead to a less centralized metagame which only exacerbates MMY's 4MSS.

For whatever reason Game Freak decided that MMY would be too powerful without a Defence reduction which really screws it over. To compensate we pour a fair amount of EVs to live LO Shadow Sneak after megaing, but still die to CB or if it takes any hazard damage which a breaker inevitably will. It is still frail as shit physically with this investment and makes deciding to mega evolve can be really awkard since it can generally at least take a hit in base forme. Priority is an issue regardless and you'd think Psyspam would solve that, but it requires webs since Zacian-C outspeeds and OHKOes it anyways. So you have this playstyle that is seemingly perfect for MMY, but even then Basculegion is a better abuser. There is also the issue of 4MSS where Mewtwo has pretty gaping holes regardless of whatever coverage it choses. It also has issues with stall as its best set requires hitting multiple Focus Blasts to make progress.

I've spilt a lot of ink shitting on this mon, but it isn't all bad. Outspeeding Eternatus is valuable, it is powerful enough, and though it has its issues, these are not going to present in every game. Yveltal + Arceus-Dark isn't common at all, Sucker Punch isn't guaranteed to be on LO Yveltal, Marshadow is common, but not absurdly so. The issues MMY has are all individually solvable, but as stated earlier, it begs the question: why bother? MMY is considered a top tier mon (A-) and these sorts of mons either have ways around their counterplay or are strong enough that some dedicated support is worthwhile.

For comparisons sake, Specs Lunala requires the same support, but is significantly more consistent. It doesn't require accounting for the coverage gaps because nothing enjoys switching into it in the first place. It also doesn't have the issue of worrying about LO Yveltal Sucker Punch because it either dies to Moonblast switching in or Lunala is switching out which MMY has to scout anyways. I'll give building MMY yet another go in the near future, but it is just a shame that the metagame is so hostile that it handicaps what is a good mon.

Dishonourable Mentions: Ultra Necrozma, Mega Salamence, Deoxys-S, Magearna, Arceus-Ghost
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the post bumboclatt! Insightful as always! I also am going to do a team dump here for conversation sake, although I’m bad at this game and am terribly unoriginal, so I didn’t put too much thought into these teams. All three teams I brought into the tournament I had already previously made and used a good deal on ladder to success.

Round 1: Cherif18
I didn’t know anything about the user I was facing, so I brought the team I use the most on ladder and am the most comfortable with and owe any ladder success to, a.k.a, Weather Crashing Bird Core.
:groudon primal: :Arceus: :Yveltal: :Kyogre primal: :Ho oh: :Salamence mega:
https://pokepast.es/9da584a243fe2aaf

The team I brought was a slightly worse version of the team I currently use and present with max Defensive Yveltal with Rocky Helmet, although I still believe Rocky Helmet is a decent item on Yveltal, allowing it to grab KOs against Zacian-C and Arceus it would miss out on.

The team is pretty well balanced, although Tera is essential to keep it from collapsing to Primal Kyogre and Trick Room. All attack Primal Groudon is a neat option that allows it to cover a large majority of the Metagame, meaning it’s hard to force out unless you have something such as Primal Kyogre. Tera Steel is honestly such a great catch-all Tera for Yveltal, from Trick Room to Arceus-Fairy to being the team’s Toxic switch-in. I would run Poison but I have too much Melmetal and Caly-I trama. Tera Grass Ho-Oh is the check for Primal Kyogre. M-Salamence checks Primal Groudon and has Facade for more anti-Toxic tech.

In the end the opponent brought a meme team so none of it really mattered anyway.

Quarterfinals: Miyoko
Also had no idea who my opponent was this round. I didn’t think bringing the same team would be smart here. So I brought an old HO team of mine and it worked well, although the team is pretty unrefined.

:Shuckle: :Eternatus: :Deoxys-Attack: :Groudon Primal: :Arceus-Fairy: :Necrozma ultra:
https://pokepast.es/99b45f9b9f645366

A pretty simple Sticky Web HO. Not much to say. Shuckle puts Webs and Eternatus uses them well. Deoxys-A was in cause it’s an amazing breaker and I’m terrified of stall-fishes. Swords Dance Primal Groudon with coverage over Rock Polish since I had Webs. Arceus-Fairy is anti-Yveltal and stall with Tera Poison. Ultra Necrozma is a HO staple.

I won the suicide lead game, so the rest of the game fell in place, as Sticky Web crippled most of Miyoko’s team and stopped Zacian-C from being threatening. Yveltal had an Arceus-Fairy in the back that I preserved after Zacian-C switched in.

Semifinals: Adem
This time I finally had an idea what I might be facing. I don’t know why but I had a sneaky suspicion Adem might bring Psychic Terrain, so I loaded the possible worst matchup for that playstyle, Trick Room (looking back at it why did I even have that suspicion? Adem brought bulky balance teams the other two games)

:Calyrex ice: :Hatterene: :Melmetal: :hattrem: :Kyogre primal: :Arceus:
https://pokepast.es/c8cdcf653bc4590f

Calyrex-Ice is pretty standard. Honestly, I prefer Hatterene as a mid-game Trick Room setter since Misty Explosion is such a useful anti-snowball tool, allowing you to eliminate anything that might me snowballing you. And also, since Hatterene is so good, why can’t Hattrem do the same thing and be the lead instead? Melmetal is also pretty standard. Primal Kyogre helps beat any Tera Water Zygarde and Dondozo that Trick Room may have trouble with. Also would love to see exploration with Goth on Trick Room to remove those bulky Water Mons. The Arceus set looks really weird. I was trying to make it a sort of hybrid of an Extreme Killer set and a Trick Room setter so that I could use it to sweep any frail HO teams.

The game itself was already a bit loaded in my favor and hax sealed it, from the Water Sprout crit to the Stone Edge damage roll. I do love how mid-game Trick Room Hatterene did extremely well though on the Dynamax Cannon read, setting up Trick Room and eliminating the Eternatus threat with Misty Explosion.

Hope you enjoyed reading this!
 
I have just discovered this tiers newest setup sweeper.
Linoone @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Belly Drum
- Stomping Tantrum/Shadow Claw
- Extreme Speed
I'm dead serious.
Back when I did Project Perfect, I discovered that after turn 1, Linoone was a stronger extreme killer than Arceus. At the time, I laughed it off as a funny and almost certainly impractical gimmick, and moved on. Today, I was experimenting with Belly Drum Quick Attack Zangoose and was comparing it to Linoone when the idea for Belly Drum Gluttony Salac Berry Linoone came to me. I did some calcs, and found it was quite powerful, but incredibly unlikely to actually last one turn. At first, I tested it out by going on ladder with screens and Yawn Accelgor to try to get the turn for it with no success, but then it hit me. Floober is the perfect partner for it. Once you trap and stall a mon with floober, instead of pp stalling it, you switch to Linoone, and set up. At this point, you have essentially won the game if your opponent doesn't have NDM, Giratina-O and usually Marshadow if you run Stomping Tantrum, or usually Zacian if you run Shadow Claw. While these circumstances aren't easy to fabricate, they are certainly doable, and the threat of it alone forces your opponent to play extremely conservatively with their counters or run a high risk of letting the beast run loose, potentially making another set up sweepers job easier. I may have come up with this a few hours ago, but I fully expect Linoone to have at least some viability.
 
Last edited:
I have just discovered this tiers newest setup sweeper.
Linoone @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Belly Drum
- Stomping Tantrum/Shadow Claw
- Extreme Speed
I'm dead serious.
Back when I did Project Perfect, I discovered that after turn 1, Linoone was a stronger extreme killer than Arceus. At the time, I laughed it off as a funny and almost certainly impractical gimmick, and moved on. Today, I was experimenting with Belly Drum Quick Attack Zangoose and was comparing it to Linoone when the idea for Belly Drum Gluttony Salac Berry Linoone came to me. I did some calcs, and found it was quite powerful, but incredibly unlikely to actually last one turn. At first, I tested it out by going on ladder with screens and Yawn Accelgor to try to get the turn for it with no success, but then it hit me. Floober is the perfect partner for it. Once you trap and stall a mon with floober, instead of pp stalling it, you switch to Linoone, and set up. At this point, you have essentially won the game if your opponent doesn't have NDM, Giratina-O and usually Marshadow if you run Stomping Tantrum, or usually Zacian if you run Shadow Claw. While these circumstances aren't easy to fabricate, they are certainly doable, and the threat of it alone forces your opponent to play extremely conservatively with their counters or run a high risk of letting the beast run loose, potentially making another set up sweepers job easier. I may have come up with this a few hours ago, but I fully expect Linoone to have at least some viability.

Is it really worth it though? Like it's cool I suppose, and the Speed boost from Salac Berry is neat, but it's barely stronger than Life Orb Arceus to the point where you have to wonder if Linoone is actually better than Arceus. 70 Attack is pretty bad compared to Arceus's 120 so it doesn't OHKO or 2HKO much that Arceus wouldn't. Also I'm not sure why you're running Return here, since Arceus never runs Normal STAB outside of Extreme Speed, apart from the Z-Giga Impact strategy, which is also a reason why you'd prefer Arceus since it can hold a different item, meanwhile Linoone is forced to run Salac Berry.

:groudon-primal:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 220-259 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 338-400 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 276-326 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 294-346 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 270-320 (66.9 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:necrozma-dusk-mane:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 337-398 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 274-324 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:giratina-origin:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Giratina-Origin: 312-369 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Giratina-Origin: 338-398 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Giratina-Origin: 354-419 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Giratina-Origin: 384-452 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:zygarde-complete:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 222-263 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 72.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 240-283 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 296-351 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 320-378 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ho-oh:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 380-447 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 410-484 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

:arceus-dark:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 243-289 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 264-312 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 325-385 (73.3 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 352-416 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I could go on with other calcs including Primal Kyogre or other sets for mons already used, but it's clear that Linoone is marginally better than Arceus. The only major calc differences in Linoone's favour is the Zygarde-C ones, but Life Orb Arceus arguably does better anyways since it can afford to run Taunt, which Linoone can't. More notably though, Linoone is very frail, and anything it doesn't downright OHKO will easily OHKO it back, unlike Arceus which still has good bulk since it can afford to use EVs for HP. Outspeeding Zacian-C, Deoxys-A and Marshadow is neat, but Linoone requires too much support to effectively be used, especially since there aren't any replays proving this strategy even works. Combine this with a lack of held item, weaker coverage option in Stomping Tantrum (which makes a big difference against NDM and Primal Groudon) and complete irrelevance against Stall (since it loses to both Dondozo and Giratina, even healthy Arceus-Dark is an issue), compared to Arceus's access to Taunt, Refresh and Recover, I don't think Linoone is a very good option, especially since it hasn't been viable in an Ubers format beforehand either.
 
Is it really worth it though? Like it's cool I suppose, and the Speed boost from Salac Berry is neat, but it's barely stronger than Life Orb Arceus to the point where you have to wonder if Linoone is actually better than Arceus. 70 Attack is pretty bad compared to Arceus's 120 so it doesn't OHKO or 2HKO much that Arceus wouldn't. Also I'm not sure why you're running Return here, since Arceus never runs Normal STAB outside of Extreme Speed, apart from the Z-Giga Impact strategy, which is also a reason why you'd prefer Arceus since it can hold a different item, meanwhile Linoone is forced to run Salac Berry.

:groudon-primal:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 203-239 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 220-259 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 338-400 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 276-326 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 294-346 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 270-320 (66.9 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:necrozma-dusk-mane:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 337-398 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 274-324 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:giratina-origin:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Giratina-Origin: 312-369 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 192+ Def Giratina-Origin: 338-398 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Giratina-Origin: 354-419 (70.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 152 Def Giratina-Origin: 384-452 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:zygarde-complete:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 222-263 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 72.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 240-283 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 296-351 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 320-378 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:ho-oh:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 380-447 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 410-484 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

:arceus-dark:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 243-289 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 264-312 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 325-385 (73.3 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 352-416 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I could go on with other calcs including Primal Kyogre or other sets for mons already used, but it's clear that Linoone is marginally better than Arceus. The only major calc differences in Linoone's favour is the Zygarde-C ones, but Life Orb Arceus arguably does better anyways since it can afford to run Taunt, which Linoone can't. More notably though, Linoone is very frail, and anything it doesn't downright OHKO will easily OHKO it back, unlike Arceus which still has good bulk since it can afford to use EVs for HP. Outspeeding Zacian-C, Deoxys-A and Marshadow is neat, but Linoone requires too much support to effectively be used, especially since there aren't any replays proving this strategy even works. Combine this with a lack of held item, weaker coverage option in Stomping Tantrum (which makes a big difference against NDM and Primal Groudon) and complete irrelevance against Stall (since it loses to both Dondozo and Giratina, even healthy Arceus-Dark is an issue), compared to Arceus's access to Taunt, Refresh and Recover, I don't think Linoone is a very good option, especially since it hasn't been viable in an Ubers format beforehand either.
actually, return is the main damaging move, with extreme speed only there to handle priority. the speed boost makes it faster than anything in the meta other than deoxys speed, which you don't need to worry about for obvious reasons. the most notable thing however, is that linoone kills almost anything. if you run Shadow claw, the Pokemon above C tier that could stop your sweep are literally just zacian, ndm, Arceus Ghost, ferrothorn, giratina, magearna, and sometimes defensive pdon. to give an example of the difference in power after one turn:
+6 252+ Atk Tera Normal Linoone Return vs. 248 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Dark: 452-532 (102 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 132+ Def Arceus-Dark: 328-387 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
linoone secures plenty of kills Arceus cant. you have still made some excelent points, and yes, the bulk is a big issue, so much so that floober will often need to put up reflect because
-6 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Linoone: 103-123 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
however, I still think it is worth considering. the game ending sweeps it can pull off are devastating, and it only needs one turn. and after a layer of spikes, the only things above c tier that can actually live it are ndm, magearna, ferrothorn, and giratina, the only A tier Mon out of those being ndm. it is obviously flawed, and the risk is high, but the reward after one turn is too high for me not to at least consider it.
 
Last edited:
Razor Claw Lugia

Lugia @ Razor Claw
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Aeroblast
- Toxic
- Roost
- Whirlwind

This is a versatile set that can effectively OHKO fighting, grass and bug types while keeping Lugia's pivot role as a defensive wall that can switch in and Whirlwind pretty much any threat with raised stats.
- Razor Claw gives Aeroblast a staggering 50% crit chance that makes it unexpectedly deadly
- decent speed tier 280 + Roost removes the flying type vunerabilities and with Multiscale it can wall most attacks indefinitely in combo with Toxic
- Tera is rarely used (but it remains as a tactical option for extra defence in a few cases)
- Whirlwind is excellent for removing e.g. Zacian-C's Intrepid Sword's single Atk boost as well as any threat that has gone out of hand because of its excessive stat boosts

I'm posting this because Lugia is ranked D (unviable) for this tier but I've found this set quite useful.
What do you think?
 
Razor Claw Lugia

Lugia @ Razor Claw
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
- Aeroblast
- Toxic
- Roost
- Whirlwind

This is a versatile set that can effectively OHKO fighting, grass and bug types while keeping Lugia's pivot role as a defensive wall that can switch in and Whirlwind pretty much any threat with raised stats.
- Razor Claw gives Aeroblast a staggering 50% crit chance that makes it unexpectedly deadly
- decent speed tier 280 + Roost removes the flying type vunerabilities and with Multiscale it can wall most attacks indefinitely in combo with Toxic
- Tera is rarely used (but it remains as a tactical option for extra defence in a few cases)
- Whirlwind is excellent for removing e.g. Zacian-C's Intrepid Sword's single Atk boost as well as any threat that has gone out of hand because of its excessive stat boosts

I'm posting this because Lugia is ranked D (unviable) for this tier but I've found this set quite useful.
What do you think?
There are no relevant grass, bug, or fighting types. Uninvested Aeroblast does pathetic damage to most of the meta, even on a crit. You do decent damage to Groudon at the cost of losing 1/4 health to stealth rocks every switch and letting in Zacian, Eternatus, Yveltal, Kyogre, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, Ho-Oh, and every Arceus form in for free.

0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 153-180 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Arceus on a critical hit: 127-150 (29.4 - 34.8%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal on a critical hit: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Ultra on a critical hit: 153-180 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Calyrex-Ice on a critical hit: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh on a critical hit: 102-121 (24.5 - 29%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 153-181 (24 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Lugia Aeroblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eternatus on a critical hit: 156-184 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
  • Like
Reactions: R8
To put it succinctly: No

Lugia is D rank because anything it tries to do is done signficantly better by something else. So this set is going to require Defog support since it is using Razor Claw and it relies on Multiscale being intact to have a semblance of a hope of being a somewhat useable wall. The best defogger in the tier, Ho-Oh already does what this Lugia set attempts to do while at least soft checking half the tier. It is also a fantastic answer to Zacian-C which can still ruin it via Sacred Fire burn even if Zacian-C teras. Lugia on the other hand, 5HKOes with Areoblast even if it crits everytime.

Sure dealing with fighting, grass, and bug types sounds nice until you realize that we don't really have any. Marshadow is the only common one which crumples to a light breeze and is going to OHKO Lugia anyways. The only somewhat common grass type, Ferrothorn, just uses Leech Seed and Areoblast can't even ko it before it runs out of PP. Buzzwole is near nonexistent and at a bare minimum is going to drop when the VR update is released soon if it isn't unranked. Arceus-Grass is underrated imo, but it also is barely used.

I'm also not really sure what Lugia is walling that something else isn't. It certainly isn't phasing setup sweepers that something else couldn't. The Main advantage it could potentially have over other phasers such as Primal Groudon, Zygarde, and Ho-Oh is that its speed tier enables it to Toxic CM Arceus formes before you get Taunted. Even then a lot of them run refresh or Tera Poison so that isn't a big deal.
 
Lugia is D rank because anything it tries to do is done signficantly better by something else.
Actually, it is arguably the best at clearing hazards. Virtually unstoppable unless the pokemon you have out on the field has Taunt. The problem is that that is basically the only thing Lugia better than anything else does besides being annoying. Other pokemon with hazard removal like Ho-Oh might not survive as much, but they contribute to games far more often. Unless you are against a Sticky Web team, or you have a sash pokemon you really want to support, there is not much reason to have a pokemon whose only purpose is to clear hazards. And if you want a flying type pokemon who exists solely to remove hazards, is really annoying, and at best trades with something, Murkrows right there, my guy. That being said, I still do believe Lugia has some niche in the tier, but not only is it very small, it is definitely not as an offensive pokemon. It doesn't hit hard enough, nor does it have the movepool.

Edit:The fact that an overview of Lugia this pessimistic still gets judged for giving it too much credit should tell you all you need to know about its viability.
 
Last edited:
Want to make a mention of a Mon I think has some niche on stall teams. I was struggling with Taunt Arceus-Fairy with Speed EV’d to outspeed Yveltal, and Specially Offensive Yveltal remained a pain (M-Tyranitar just made my team more vulnerable to Taunt Arceus-Fairy). So I was thinking I’d have to pull out Unaware Clodsire, although this was easily Taunted and lost to Yveltal. YOU SEE MY DILEMMA?! As I was strolling through the forbidden halls of non-Uber Pokemon, it dawned on me: a Fairy-type with Aroma Veil! My immediate thoughts went to Alcremie, but I found it lacked needed utility such as Confide and Toxic and was rather passive. Then a Mon with unmatched utility appeared that greatly aided against Taunt in general. After testing it has done as intended. Behold:

Aromatisse
:sv/Aromatisse:

Aromatisse @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aroma Veil
Tera Type: Steel / Poison / ???
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Confide

Thanks to its immunity to Taunt because of Aroma Veil, Aromatisse is able to use Toxic on Arceus-Fairy and Yveltal, which Ho-Oh struggles to do. Aromatisse has serviceable Special bulk, allowing it to actually wall the Mons I need it to face. Wish + Protect allows it to recover its health while providing health to teammates that would otherwise be Taunted from healing like Chansey, Dondozo, etc. Confide allows it wall Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes. This Mon has greatly eased the matchup into Taunt Arc-Fairy and Yveltal for me. All it really needs to do is click Toxic. That’s it. May link replays if I find any or have a battle worth posting. Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
RE: Aromatisse. Stall usually runs Brave Bird on Ho-Oh which is going to burn through Arceus-Fairy's Recover PP very quickly. Not to say that it couldn't have a place on stall, but I'm struggling to see what niche it fills. Mega Tyranitar was recently ranked and a large reason why is that it near completely shuts down LO Yveltal and prevents it from making progress while providing Stealth Rock and Knock Off.

As for the main reason for this post: National Dex Ubers Open is starting fairly soon! A lot of people have signed up and this is the first official tournament we've had in quite some time (Trios was great and thanks to Anchor9 for putting that together - I'm not trying to be dismissive of that) and I'm looking forward to seeing what metagame development and innovations come from it. I was chatting with Eledyr for a bit last night about the metagame as a whole and thought I'd make a post about some stuff I'll be keeping an eye on during the open. First though I have some questions for y'all:

1. Are there any Pokémon or playstyles you think are underrated and will pop off during the open? :totodiLUL:

2. Conversely, do you think there are any Pokémon or playstyles which are a bit overrated and will have a poor showing? :worrywhirl:

3. More generally, do you have any predictions or hot takes? :blobthinking:

Stuff I'll be keeping an eye on

:arceus-ground::arceus-dark::arceus-fairy::arceus-water: There are a few things I'll be paying attention to when it comes to Arceus over the course of the tournament. First is Arceus-Ground specifically. Arceus-Ground is generally viewed as the best overall Arceus forme. This isn't something I wholly agree or disagree with, though I've been leaning towards the latter. Arceus-Ground's viability stems in large part from its set versatility. Whilst I do not view any Arceus-Ground set to be as potent as its S-[1] VR rank would suggest, there is nearly always some set that probably fits reasonably well onto your team. Conversely, while any good team can generally handle Arceus-Ground, there is also probably some set that puts in work into your team. It is a jack of all trades, master of none type of Pokémon, which is both a boon and a curse. Although being generally good is great, I often find myself wanting more security against certain threats defensively that Arceus-Ground is able to provide relative to other Arceus formes. Accordingly, I don't find myself using Arceus-Ground as often as I could. I'll be paying attention to how often Arceus-Ground is used and how effective it is. After all, a Pokémon which derives a signficant portion of its viability from its ease of use should be used and this will be something I'll factor in on the next VR slate.

Second, I'll be paying a lot of attention to what nature people opt for on defensive Arceus formes on their balance and BO teams. I'm a very strong advocate of Timid Arceus formes most of the time in this metagame. It goes without saying that there are some drawbacks to using Timid Arceus over Bold. Some teams definitely need Bold Arceus formes, but I think most manage just fine with Timid and outspeeding Rayquaza, Lunala, and especially Yveltal is pretty massive given how effectively these Pokémon currently are as wallbreakers.

Third, I'm interested to see how prevelant CM Arceus formes will be. They're incredibly easy to fit at the moment and the fourth moveslot is fairly flexible. Lastly, I'll be paying attention to Arceus-Water usage. I had the lowest vote for it on our last VR slate and even that vote was being optimistic about it as opposed to having faith that it truly is an A- rank Pokémon. I think it is good, but I feel I'm missing something so I'm keen to see how it ends up being used.

:zacian-crowned: I voted Zacian-C to A+[1] in the VR slate, but nearly put it at the bottom of A+ before leaving it at A+[1]. It had a horrible showing in Trios and the few ladder and test games I've played since have done little to inspire faith. I was discussing Zacian-C with Eledyr last night and mentioned that I'd probably vote A+[4] below Marshadow. Zacian-C is still one of the scariest Pokémon around, but doing something on paper and realizing that potential in game are two very different things. It requires incredibly precise positioning at times and has to hope that it has the right 2 of Play Rough, Behemoth Blade, Close Combat, and Tera Blast Ground. It just requires a bit too much to go right to be a S- level threat imo and I'll be looking foreward to see how it performs in the Open.

:kyogre-primal: I've mentioned this because I've seen a fair few people trash it. If you arn't facing HO or using Ferrothorn (even then Scald burns + Power Whip misses can make it dicey vs defensive Primal Kyogre) Primal Kyogre is one of the scariest Pokémon to see at team preview. Offensive sets are incredibly threatening, underused and can afford to invest in a bit of bulk which goes a long way.

:gothitelle: I don't think Gothitelle will see a ton of use, but I'm keen to see what it does when it is brought. Shadow Tag is broken and it is far better in a tournament setting than ladder where you don't have to account for such a wide range of tomfoolery. I'm hoping it puts on a show (against someone other than me), but I also think it is a lot more likely to pick up usage in NDPL rather than the Open.

:giratina-origin: It has had quite a glow up since Xerneas was banned. I think physical sets are mediocre on most teams and I'm interested to see how accurate that statement is in higher level play.

:necrozma-dusk-mane: I'm looking forward to seeing Dragon Dance put in some work. Defensive sets are alright but DD NDM is an underrated and underused breaker imo.

:alomomola: I regret not voting this to A-. Alo will see some use and I'm keen to see how it performs and whether it can change people's opinions.

:eternatus: I've always thought Eternatus was a bit overrated and a non insignifcant portion of its usage stems from lazy teambuilding. There are a lot of teams that give the impression that Eternatus is on there because it fits well enough rather than it being the best option.

:deoxys-speed::glimmora: Deoxys-S dropped in the recent VR update and my reason for doing so was due to the competition it faces from Glimmora. I still think Deoxys-S is often the better choice for Hstack HO, but it'll be interesting to see what HO enthusiasts decide to bring.

:smeargle::shuckle: 09-10a is playing so there will be assuredly be at least some Smeargle usage. Similar to Deoxys-S/Glimmora I'm interested to see which ends up being the Sticky Web setter of choice. I'm not particularly high on webs as a whole, but I do wonder how webs enthusiasts will weigh the higher ceiling of Smeargle vs the consistency of Shuckle.

:garganacl: It is a pretty cool antimeta Pokémon, but I'm not expecting to see it more than a handful of times, if at all. It'll be interesting to see someone give a new spin on Garganacl.

:chien-pao: Adem has converted Bob into a Chien-Pao believer. Same thing as Garganacl, if it is brought I'll be keen to see if it can put in work. Choice Band is pretty good, but I'm still skeptical of Swords Dance.

:landorus-therian: I'm sure it'll make its way into a couple of games. I think it has B- potential, but wanted to see it do more than it has. This is a chance to show off what it can do. Landorus-T strikes me as a mon that will be somewhat common in NDPL, but I'm not sure if it will be in the Open.

That is it from me! I'm just hoping to see some good games, meta development, and as little hax as possible. I hope everyone that signed up for the Open has a fun time!
 
Zacian often gets called a tera hog as a knock on its viability. But what if it wasn't?

I find Behemoth Blade + Tera Blast Ground + Wild Charge Zacian to be incredible useful and consistent, but the sentiment around Zacian's viability has never been worse. Part of it is understandable: Xerneas was banned and a soft check like Zacian has less of a place in the meta as a result. Zacian also had an appallingly bad win rate of 18.75% in Trios. The viewpoint that Zacian doesn't have the coverage it needs without TBlast Ground and that it harms a team by requiring it is also understandable. However, this is an issue I believe is possible to solve through the teambuilder.

What if a team had multiple Pokemon who don't need/want to Terastalize in order to fully enable Tera Blast Zacian?

A similar idea came to me last year when I tried running Agility + Meteor Beam + Tera Blast Ground Eternatus as a setup sweeper (I am aware of how goofy that set sounds). Primal Groudon is already on most good teams, but what if 2, 3, or even 4 team members rarely or almost never require use of tera to function? On a team that I reached 1777 on the ladder with, I have:

:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (incapable of tera)
:necrozma-ultra: Ultra Necrozma (also incapable)
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (suicide lead that doesn't need/want to in basically every game)
:pheromosa: Pheromosa (only needs Tera Ghost in maybe 5-10% of games)
:arceus-ground: Arceus-Ground (needs tera somewhat frequently)
:zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned (needs tera often)

I didn't build the team setting out to limit my tera options like this, but it coincidentally ended up this way and made me remember the Eternatus thing I tried doing last year. I'm gonna try building more teams like this in order to enable Zacian. Here are options for tera anti-hogs:

Incapable of terastalizing
:groudon-primal:Primal Groudon
:kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre
:salamence-mega:Mega Salamence
:mewtwo-mega-y:Mega Mewtwo Y
:mewtwo-mega-x:Mega Mewtwo X
:diancie-mega:Mega Diancie
:necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma
Any Z move user (:zekrom: is functionally always part of this list)

Rarely wants to terastalize
Most suicide leads (:glimmora:, :deoxys-speed:, :grimmsnarl:, :shuckle:, :smeargle:, :hatterene:, lead :rayquaza:)
:alomomola:Alomomola
:dondozo:Dondozo
:pheromosa: Pheromosa

Terastalizes decently often, but functions well enough without it
:zygarde:Zygarde
:yveltal:offensive Yveltal
:deoxys-attack:Deoxys-Attack
:marshadow:Marshadow
Every :arceus: other than its base form

This is collectively a pretty large portion of the tier. Zacian and 3-5 of these can easily be brought together to construct a completely functional high level team.
To me, the main issue with running multiple Pokemon that can't tera is reducing the unpredictability of a team and thus making it easier for an opponent to make decisions. Zacian itself is already fairly predictable. Kyogre, revealed Ultra Necrozma, and all the choices of suicide lead also have very predictable roles. For Pokemon where you can easily ascertain what it'll do at team preview/once it's sent out, the ideal is for their innate traits to be so good that they don't require the element of surprise or the use of a predictable tera to make progress consistently in any game it's brought. Kyogre and Ultra Necrozma both do the same things every game, but their raw power is more than enough to make up for their predictability.

All this is to say that ideally, a partner for Zacian on a team like this either a) is consistently useful and can't tera or b) can consistently contribute to a team without needing to tera, but still has that option available. As for which specific partners to go with: Zacian + Kyogre is already a ferocious offensive duo while Groudon is the most splashable thing ever. Zacian + Ultra Necrozma is a monstrous combo of two physical attackers both capable of beating most Groudon sets 1v1. Mewtwo-Y, Mega Salamence, and Zekrom are already very capable Zacian partners on Sticky Web teams. Yveltal checks the few things that wall +3 Zacian and provides incredible power and initiative to any team it's on. I'm a big fan of Pheromosa and its ability to pivot and also OHKO Smeargle with Triple Axel, both of which help Zacian sweep. Support Arceus has unmatched utility and Arceus's natural bulk + speed means it doesn't need Tera to survive neutral hits, while a strong Judgment will smack Zygarde or Groudon hard enough that they lose the ability to revenge kill +3 Zacian. Marshadow can be a good partner on teams that otherwise struggle with chipping Arceus-Ground, Normal, and Dark into range for Zacian to clean up. Lastly, suicide leads can provide crucial defensive utility utility (screens and/or denying opposing hazards) and chip damage via hazards that may be crucial against certain sets (for example, Zacian OHKOs Giratina-O much more easily after even just one round of stealth rock damage).

I've spent a massive amount of time trying to write this forum post and it's pretty hard for me to articulate this idea. I'm aware of how this can sound like my suggestion is to handicap a team by throwing on Pokemon that can't tera because they can't tera rather than thoughtfully trying to select partners that don't need to terastalize to fulfill their roles so Zacian can function at 100% effectiveness. Unless Darkinium Z Yveltal or Dragonium/Firium Z Eternatus is already a good fit for a team, then running one of them with a Z crystal rather than another set just because they can't terastalize is limiting options for the sake of it rather than thoughtful teambuilding. I also acknowledge that a tight balancing act exists between enabling a Pokemon to be as effective as possible through the choice of its teammates' sets and being weighed down trying to pick the right partners for the sake of making a subpar Pokemon/set work. I think I found a good balance with this team here:

https://pokepast.es/5d5c62afdb1b5245
I made this team in about 10 minutes and haven't had the chance to seriously test it but I believe it's a decent example of what I hope to accomplish with this concept. Chip from hazards set by Glimmora can greatly assist Zacian in getting a sweep off and as mentioned before, suicide leads will rarely use up the Tera intended for Zacian. Dragon Tail + Wisp Groudon can handle threats in the midgame (while having enough attack investment to OHKO physdef Ho-Oh and keep hazards up) and Dragon Tail can provide the chip damage on Zygarde necessary for Zacian to sweep. Taunt + Toxic Arceus provides great utility against stall teams, Kyogre breaks balance teams, and Yveltal demolishes both (running Sucker Punch for opposing Marshadow/U-Necrozma). +3 Zacian running this coverage has 4 things it loses to 1v1 if they're at full health: Zygarde, bulky status spreader Giratina, some Lunala sets, and sash Marshadow Dondozo. Yveltal is amazing into all of the above. You could also potentially build around Gothitelle and its ability to trap and remove Zygarde, Dondozo, and Ho-Oh.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2148156853

The original intro paragraph lumped in Lunala and Extreme Killer as tera hogs that could benefit from this teambuilding concept, but after almost everything else was done I changed it to being about just Zacian because I believe it's is the only one of the three worth building a team around like this. The reward of getting to consistently use Fairy-type Lunala isn't worth the effort required in my opinion. Lunala's stats are just too mid, but maybe there's some merit to it as bait for Yveltal and Marshadow with scarf Moonblast. As for EKiller, it has two main issues: matchup reliance (including being dead weight into stall) and restricting a team from using another Arceus form with superior utility in the early and mid-games. Picking teammates that more consistently let Arceus terastalize Ghost to beat Marshadow and Giratina don't change the former problem and arguably exacerbates the latter. A Zacian that sheds its two weaknesses while gaining a strong consistent ground move has the right mix of bulk, speed, power, and coverage to make focusing on it so heavily in the teambuilder worthwhile. I don't think any other combination of a Pokemon and a tera type in the tier is as worthwhile to build around. i still think tera blast ground eternatus has potential though guys please just hear me out

Thank you for reading this. As mentioned earlier, this concept was very hard for me to articulate and I spent a lot of time trying to do that as best as I could. Any constructive commentary would be appreciated.
 
Zacian often gets called a tera hog as a knock on its viability. But what if it wasn't?

I find Behemoth Blade + Tera Blast Ground + Wild Charge Zacian to be incredible useful and consistent, but the sentiment around Zacian's viability has never been worse. Part of it is understandable: Xerneas was banned and a soft check like Zacian has less of a place in the meta as a result. Zacian also had an appallingly bad win rate of 18.75% in Trios. The viewpoint that Zacian doesn't have the coverage it needs without TBlast Ground and that it harms a team by requiring it is also understandable. However, this is an issue I believe is possible to solve through the teambuilder.

What if a team had multiple Pokemon who don't need/want to Terastalize in order to fully enable Tera Blast Zacian?

A similar idea came to me last year when I tried running Agility + Meteor Beam + Tera Blast Ground Eternatus as a setup sweeper (I am aware of how goofy that set sounds). Primal Groudon is already on most good teams, but what if 2, 3, or even 4 team members rarely or almost never require use of tera to function? On a team that I reached 1777 on the ladder with, I have:

:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (incapable of tera)
:necrozma-ultra: Ultra Necrozma (also incapable)
:rayquaza: Rayquaza (suicide lead that doesn't need/want to in basically every game)
:pheromosa: Pheromosa (only needs Tera Ghost in maybe 5-10% of games)
:arceus-ground: Arceus-Ground (needs tera somewhat frequently)
:zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned (needs tera often)

I didn't build the team setting out to limit my tera options like this, but it coincidentally ended up this way and made me remember the Eternatus thing I tried doing last year. I'm gonna try building more teams like this in order to enable Zacian. Here are options for tera anti-hogs:

Incapable of terastalizing
:groudon-primal:Primal Groudon
:kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre
:salamence-mega:Mega Salamence
:mewtwo-mega-y:Mega Mewtwo Y
:mewtwo-mega-x:Mega Mewtwo X
:diancie-mega:Mega Diancie
:necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma
Any Z move user (:zekrom: is functionally always part of this list)

Rarely wants to terastalize
Most suicide leads (:glimmora:, :deoxys-speed:, :grimmsnarl:, :shuckle:, :smeargle:, :hatterene:, lead :rayquaza:)
:alomomola:Alomomola
:dondozo:Dondozo
:pheromosa: Pheromosa

Terastalizes decently often, but functions well enough without it
:zygarde:Zygarde
:yveltal:offensive Yveltal
:deoxys-attack:Deoxys-Attack
:marshadow:Marshadow
Every :arceus: other than its base form

This is collectively a pretty large portion of the tier. Zacian and 3-5 of these can easily be brought together to construct a completely functional high level team.
To me, the main issue with running multiple Pokemon that can't tera is reducing the unpredictability of a team and thus making it easier for an opponent to make decisions. Zacian itself is already fairly predictable. Kyogre, revealed Ultra Necrozma, and all the choices of suicide lead also have very predictable roles. For Pokemon where you can easily ascertain what it'll do at team preview/once it's sent out, the ideal is for their innate traits to be so good that they don't require the element of surprise or the use of a predictable tera to make progress consistently in any game it's brought. Kyogre and Ultra Necrozma both do the same things every game, but their raw power is more than enough to make up for their predictability.

All this is to say that ideally, a partner for Zacian on a team like this either a) is consistently useful and can't tera or b) can consistently contribute to a team without needing to tera, but still has that option available. As for which specific partners to go with: Zacian + Kyogre is already a ferocious offensive duo while Groudon is the most splashable thing ever. Zacian + Ultra Necrozma is a monstrous combo of two physical attackers both capable of beating most Groudon sets 1v1. Mewtwo-Y, Mega Salamence, and Zekrom are already very capable Zacian partners on Sticky Web teams. Yveltal checks the few things that wall +3 Zacian and provides incredible power and initiative to any team it's on. I'm a big fan of Pheromosa and its ability to pivot and also OHKO Smeargle with Triple Axel, both of which help Zacian sweep. Support Arceus has unmatched utility and Arceus's natural bulk + speed means it doesn't need Tera to survive neutral hits, while a strong Judgment will smack Zygarde or Groudon hard enough that they lose the ability to revenge kill +3 Zacian. Marshadow can be a good partner on teams that otherwise struggle with chipping Arceus-Ground, Normal, and Dark into range for Zacian to clean up. Lastly, suicide leads can provide crucial defensive utility utility (screens and/or denying opposing hazards) and chip damage via hazards that may be crucial against certain sets (for example, Zacian OHKOs Giratina-O much more easily after even just one round of stealth rock damage).

I've spent a massive amount of time trying to write this forum post and it's pretty hard for me to articulate this idea. I'm aware of how this can sound like my suggestion is to handicap a team by throwing on Pokemon that can't tera because they can't tera rather than thoughtfully trying to select partners that don't need to terastalize to fulfill their roles so Zacian can function at 100% effectiveness. Unless Darkinium Z Yveltal or Dragonium/Firium Z Eternatus is already a good fit for a team, then running one of them with a Z crystal rather than another set just because they can't terastalize is limiting options for the sake of it rather than thoughtful teambuilding. I also acknowledge that a tight balancing act exists between enabling a Pokemon to be as effective as possible through the choice of its teammates' sets and being weighed down trying to pick the right partners for the sake of making a subpar Pokemon/set work. I think I found a good balance with this team here:

https://pokepast.es/5d5c62afdb1b5245
I made this team in about 10 minutes and haven't had the chance to seriously test it but I believe it's a decent example of what I hope to accomplish with this concept. Chip from hazards set by Glimmora can greatly assist Zacian in getting a sweep off and as mentioned before, suicide leads will rarely use up the Tera intended for Zacian. Dragon Tail + Wisp Groudon can handle threats in the midgame (while having enough attack investment to OHKO physdef Ho-Oh and keep hazards up) and Dragon Tail can provide the chip damage on Zygarde necessary for Zacian to sweep. Taunt + Toxic Arceus provides great utility against stall teams, Kyogre breaks balance teams, and Yveltal demolishes both (running Sucker Punch for opposing Marshadow/U-Necrozma). +3 Zacian running this coverage has 4 things it loses to 1v1 if they're at full health: Zygarde, bulky status spreader Giratina, some Lunala sets, and sash Marshadow Dondozo. Yveltal is amazing into all of the above. You could also potentially build around Gothitelle and its ability to trap and remove Zygarde, Dondozo, and Ho-Oh.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2148156853

The original intro paragraph lumped in Lunala and Extreme Killer as tera hogs that could benefit from this teambuilding concept, but after almost everything else was done I changed it to being about just Zacian because I believe it's is the only one of the three worth building a team around like this. The reward of getting to consistently use Fairy-type Lunala isn't worth the effort required in my opinion. Lunala's stats are just too mid, but maybe there's some merit to it as bait for Yveltal and Marshadow with scarf Moonblast. As for EKiller, it has two main issues: matchup reliance (including being dead weight into stall) and restricting a team from using another Arceus form with superior utility in the early and mid-games. Picking teammates that more consistently let Arceus terastalize Ghost to beat Marshadow and Giratina don't change the former problem and arguably exacerbates the latter. A Zacian that sheds its two weaknesses while gaining a strong consistent ground move has the right mix of bulk, speed, power, and coverage to make focusing on it so heavily in the teambuilder worthwhile. I don't think any other combination of a Pokemon and a tera type in the tier is as worthwhile to build around. i still think tera blast ground eternatus has potential though guys please just hear me out

Thank you for reading this. As mentioned earlier, this concept was very hard for me to articulate and I spent a lot of time trying to do that as best as I could. Any constructive commentary would be appreciated.
This is in my opinion a very interesting post as it highlights an aspect of teambuilding probably a bit too overlooked, which is thinking on what we want to precisely do with Tera with the team. This post reminded me of a team that is quite old but still illustrates this concept well in my opinion, although the approach here is different than with zacian:

:gholdengo: :arceus-ground: :groudon-primal: :marshadow: :ho-oh: :zygarde-complete:

Gholdengo's niche is basically guaranteeing that spikes stay up against some bulky balances (on top of being a threatening win condition), which means you will often have to try to tera as soon as possible in the Ho-Oh matchup, so you generally don't have a lot of choices in terms of what you want to do with Tera. However, the three other tera users (ghost Marshadow, water Zygarde and grass Ho-Oh) are mostly using the mechanic to help against offense, so the tera dependency Gholdengo has is in practice not really a problem with this team. More generally, i believe thinking on how to allocate each tera depending on what you are facing is important to make the most out of the mechanic, and also is the key to use Pokemon that can feel a bit too reliant on tera. While being a tera hog is a drawback, it certainly doesn't make a Pokemon/set unviable by itself, and you are getting a free mon to tera per game so no reason to pass up a good reason to use that! It's just all about being smart about it in my opinion
 
This is a really good and well thought out post! Thanks for writing it! It is always great to see high quality metagame discussion! I thought I'd weigh in as someone who is a little bit lower on Zacian-C at the moment as stated above. In the recent VR slate I voted Zacian-C to A+[1] and currently I would likely round out the bottom of my A+ ranks. Despite this, I still think Zacian-C is a fantastic Pokemon, I would vote it A+ afterall. Although I and many others have talked about how it has fallen off a bit, everything is relative.

Zacian-C has never been anything less than a top tier threat at any point during NDUbers' existence, but Zacian-C currently compared to the Xerneas metagame is undoubtedly worse. The degree to which someone would agree with that statement will vary, but I doubt many people would wholly disagree. Zacian-C and Xerneas combined to easily overwhelm their shared counterplay and both had enough set versatility that trying to figure out which was running what was nothing short of a nightmare.

In the time since, the metagame has slowed down a fair bit. Most importantly for Zacian-C, HO, the playstyle it most easily slots into, is in a rougher spot. That certainly may change and I'm hoping that the NDUbers Open leads to lots of metagame development. We will certainly see, but currently it appears that most people are opting to reuse old or known teams rather than make their own. I'm hoping that this changes as the tournament progresses.

Zacian-C on HO and Zacian-C on BO / Balance play and require a different degree of attention in the teambuilder and support to where it almost feels as though you're talking about two seperate Pokemon. I've not seen someone call Zacian-C a tera hog, but I do not agree with that sentiment. It has some other issues that I'll get to, but being a tera hog isn't one of them.

Zacian-C's best playstyle is without a doubt HO. It can slot on most HO teams fairly easily and isn't a tera hog in the slightest. Your post does a pretty good job of showing why that is. You have a slot for your suicide lead, probably a z slot, whether that is Ultra Necrozma or something, and likely a primal (or two). So right of the bat, without even trying, at least half of your team isn't even going to have access to Tera. This is also ignores whether or not you want to use a mega. It isn't close to mandatory, but HO does use one more often than any other playstyle.

So you have 2-3 mons on your team that can actually tera in the first place. Even if Zacian-C wants to use tera more often than most mons, when it does it is really damn good. You and R8 both sort of touch on this your posts, but calling something a tera hog really just kind of feels off when a mon is still decent without tera and often changes the outcome of the game with it. I use Zygarde on most of my teams so I'll use that as an example. In most games outside of the stall matchup Zygarde is going to be the mon that teras, far more than Zacian-C ever will. Zygarde has decent typing, but it is really damn reliant on tera to be as good as it is. Calling it a tera hog feels somewhat weird when a lot of wins are dependent on Zygarde teraing. On the other hand, Garganacl, a mon I quite like and think is underrated, needs tera in most games to actually be good similar to R8's Gholdengo example. That imo is really what we should be calling a tera hog.

So the issues I have with Zacian-C are not its reliance on tera, but the coverage issues you briefly mentioned at the beginning of your post. This issue is masked somewhat on HO, but once you move to balance and BO teams it becomes quite prevalent. Zacian-C has 4MSS out the wazoo as it has three slots to fit all of Play Rough, Behemoth Blade, Wild Charge, Close Combat, and Tera Blast Ground. One slot is going to go to STAB move, another to Wild Charge, and the last is flexible. No matter what selection of moves and tera you ultimately settle you're going to have some pretty significant coverage gaps against some mon that is on nearly every team.

Against HO this isn't as big a deal as Zacian-C's power and speed is often enough do stuff and maybe clean if the conditions allow. Where it gets quite dicey is against everything. Zacian-C is deadweight against stall unless you opt for the horrible Tera Electric set which makes Zacian-C not much of a threat against everything else. Being deadweight against stall is not the end of the world. Hell, my favourite Pokemon, Zygarde, is little more than a Toxic sponge vs stall. Zygarde when used on balance or BO is consistently good against nearly everything else.

The issue I have with Zacian-C is that word consistency. Even if I think it has fallen off, it is still a massive threat and any good team needs to have some method of dealing with it. This is where the coverage issues come in. Unless you hold it in the back the entire game, which generally shouldn't be the case, it is either going to faint or be forced out at some point and loosing that +1 is absolutely massive. Even ignoring the 4MSS it has, this is why I have a signifcant issue fitting it on most of my teams even if I wanted to.

Despite having the best defensive typing in the game and decent natural bulk, it is actually quite difficult to safely get it on the field. The only mons it switches in safely on are Yveltal and Alomomola. The latter also just Flip Turns to get in whatever counterplay you have as Zacian-C SD's and if it is physdef it surives +3 Wild Charge anyways. Even mons it should be able to easily switch-on such as Giratina-O and some utility Arceus formes need to have their status move scouted so Zacian-C isn't eating a Wisp or Thunder Wave.

The issue is, you've got a wallbreaker / sweeper / cleaner that in practise ends up needing incredibly precise positioning. This is definitely doable, but most of us are not good enough to do this consistently, even the best players. Even then you have to account for whatever mons Zacian-C is missing coverage for. This is a hell of a lot of effort to support a S- mon.

The end of your post (" I don't think any other combination of a Pokemon and a tera type in the tier is as worthwhile to build around") perfectly encapulates why I don't think Zacian-C is a S- mon. These are supposed to mons that you can slap onto most teams pretty easily and often they're the ones that support or enable the rest of the squad not the other way around. When I'm looking for a mon to fill the role that Zacian-C does I often find myself turning to CB Marshadow which is a better revenge killer v HO since half the stuff you'd want to revenge boosts it speed anyways and doesn't really have coverage issues. This Zacian-C team I built for the Open is the first time I've liked Zacian-C on one of my teams since around December. I'll post the paste once I'm out of the Open, but the sets are shown in the replay.
1719102452309.png
Replay

It didn't really do much of anything in this game. There was a defensive NDM, Defensive Pdon, Marshadow, and Deoxys-A on the other side. Even if it had been Tera Blast Ground I wouldn't have used Tera on it since it is getting revenged incredibly easily and thats fine. The mons it is on the team to handle didn't show up. It doesn't have to put in work every game.

Tl;Dr: It is still a good mon. The issues I have with it relate to the 4MSS it has and the flaws it has are more consistent with an A+ mon. S- means you can easily splash it on stuff and that really isn't the case outside of HO. It is still a good mon.

The original intro paragraph lumped in Lunala and Extreme Killer as tera hogs that could benefit from this teambuilding concept, but after almost everything else was done I changed it to being about just Zacian because I believe it's is the only one of the three worth building a team around like this. The reward of getting to consistently use Fairy-type Lunala isn't worth the effort required in my opinion. Lunala's stats are just too mid, but maybe there's some merit to it as bait for Yveltal and Marshadow with scarf Moonblast.
Just wanted to respond to this specifically. Try Tera Ghost Choice Specs Lunala. It is a fantastic breaker. This is the first time I've heard anyone attempt to use a scarf on it. It isn't particularly tera reliant and goes absolutely nuts against defensive teams. Pair it w/ coil Zygarde + SpD Arceus Fairy or SpD CM Dark.
 
So the issues I have with Zacian-C are not its reliance on tera, but the coverage issues you briefly mentioned at the beginning of your post. This issue is masked somewhat on HO, but once you move to balance and BO teams it becomes quite prevalent. Zacian-C has 4MSS out the wazoo as it has three slots to fit all of Play Rough, Behemoth Blade, Wild Charge, Close Combat, and Tera Blast Ground. One slot is going to go to STAB move, another to Wild Charge, and the last is flexible. No matter what selection of moves and tera you ultimately settle you're going to have some pretty significant coverage gaps against some mon that is on nearly every team.
I think that Behemoth Blade/Wild Charge/TB Ground is the closest to solving Zacian's 4MSS and that contributes to why I believe its very high ceiling is worth building for. I'm curious what you think about my assertion that +3 Zacian with that coverage only has 4 (common) things it can't OHKO*. My argument is kind of saying that Zacian with this set is good because it can sweep if it gets an opportunity to use Swords Dance and Zygarde is chipped and Dondozo can't switch in and Lunala or Giratina can't use Thunder Wave/Will O'Wisp and nothing can Tera and survive a hit to revenge kill or spread status. I can see the throughline between these conditions being difficult to engineer when using a balance team -> Zacian doesn't belong in S or S- because it's not splashable outside HO. Regardless, I believe this set is versatile enough that 4MSS doesn't apply. Play Rough would be nice for Darkceus, Giratina, and Zygarde but the adjustments that need to be made in battle to account for them don't cripple Zacian like true 4MSS would. Dondozo is a hard counter regardless of Zacian's set and Lunala isn't common enough for not having Crunch to be crippling.

*I was actually mistaken writing that because +3 Behemoth Blade isn't guaranteed to do more than 100% to 252hp Arceus (they have an 81% chance to survive from full and that drops to 6% if they get hit by spikes or neutral stealth rocks once) and really struggles against Bold formes it can't hit supereffectively.
I'm not familiar with Necrozma-Dusk Mane EV spreads but +3 Tera Blast loses the guaranteed OHKO when NDM has 252 HP and at least 128 defense EVs. With 236, the chance goes down to 50% and with at least 228+, it doesn't even have a roll that OHKOs. I think this is even less of an issue than the others listed: NDM comes out a lot across a game and chipping it is really easy to do.

Despite having the best defensive typing in the game
I think it's funny how Steel/Fairy is stupendously good in almost every meta except ND ubers. Blanking Yveltal and Eternatus's stab combos is incredibly valuable, but in return for that you're weak to the litany of ground attacks in the tier as well as Sacred Fire. Zacian would be so much better if it was Steel/Dark. Resisting all 3 common priority moves, keeping its Dark resistance, and having a STAB that hits NDM supereffectively and hits Groudon at all. Maybe Kingambit deserves more experimentation.

The only mons it switches in safely on are Yveltal and Alomomola. The latter also just Flip Turns to get in whatever counterplay you have as Zacian-C SD's and if it is physdef it surives +3 Wild Charge anyways. Even mons it should be able to easily switch-on such as Giratina-O and some utility Arceus formes need to have their status move scouted so Zacian-C isn't eating a Wisp or Thunder Wave.
From my experience, switching in Zacian after losing a teammate and using tera Ground to survive an otherwise supereffective hit so it can use Swords Dance is a decently common occurrence. Ground doesn't provide any useful resistances but it does allow Zacian to survive a stray Earthquake or Judgment. Bulky utility NDM is hypothetically also a setup opportunity since the best option they have against you is Thunder Wave. Requiring something to die/be sacrificed to come in and set up sounds bad, but Zacian is almost always going to get at least two KOs in return if it successfully gets an SD off. The worst case scenario is that Zacian takes too much damage on the turn it uses Swords Dance and gets revenge killed by priority the following turn, which is admittedly a waste of a team slot (but also probably more a consequence of subpar decisions than a weakness of Zacian).
One of the most common ways I can semi-consistently get that setup opportunity with Zacian is taunting something with Yveltal, Gothitelle, or Arceus and letting them die so Zacian can come in not fearing a status move. Zygarde only needs to be chipped to ~80% for +3 Behemoth Blade to OHKO and with defensive tera Ground, Zacian doesn't fear a flaccid Thousand Arrows at all.

The end of your post (" I don't think any other combination of a Pokemon and a tera type in the tier is as worthwhile to build around") perfectly encapulates why I don't think Zacian-C is a S- mon. These are supposed to mons that you can slap onto most teams pretty easily and often they're the ones that support or enable the rest of the squad not the other way around.
I think this is an interesting statement because after building the team I linked in my post, it appeared to me on the surface as a completely basic team. Kyogre, Arceus, Yveltal, and Glimmora all have very standard sets. Groudon's moveset is compromised slightly to fit Dragon Tail specifically for Zygarde but it's still a perfectly functional utility Primal Groudon. Most of the effort is in the thought behind the choices of team members and sets. While playing, Zacian is definitely at the front of my mind because it's the main win condition but the rest of the team is more than capable enough to make progress in a way that doesn't require an SD sweep. Choosing Kyogre because it's a good partner for Zacian doesn't feel like building a team to support a single Pokemon because those two match up well into each other's checks regardless of what team they're on.


All your points are valid. Honestly, my mental opposition to Zacian being below S- is just because it feels wrong. The Pokemon that was Power Creep Incarnate in its debut generation being worse than Ho-Oh and barely above the 600 BST Marshadow? It just doesn't feel right, which isn't a competitive argument but instead a rather silly emotional one. I don't have any strong feelings unless something very stupid happens with the next VR shift like Zacian or Kyogre dropping below A+.
Also, I wish there was a formal announcement about the Open tournament somewhere on the forum because I never had the chance to sign up.
 
I think that Behemoth Blade/Wild Charge/TB Ground is the closest to solving Zacian's 4MSS and that contributes to why I believe its very high ceiling is worth building for. I'm curious what you think about my assertion that +3 Zacian with that coverage only has 4 (common) things it can't OHKO*. My argument is kind of saying that Zacian with this set is good because it can sweep if it gets an opportunity to use Swords Dance and Zygarde is chipped and Dondozo can't switch in and Lunala or Giratina can't use Thunder Wave/Will O'Wisp and nothing can Tera and survive a hit to revenge kill or spread status. I can see the throughline between these conditions being difficult to engineer when using a balance team -> Zacian doesn't belong in S or S- because it's not splashable outside HO. Regardless, I believe this set is versatile enough that 4MSS doesn't apply. Play Rough would be nice for Darkceus, Giratina, and Zygarde but the adjustments that need to be made in battle to account for them don't cripple Zacian like true 4MSS would. Dondozo is a hard counter regardless of Zacian's set and Lunala isn't common enough for not having Crunch to be crippling.

*I was actually mistaken writing that because +3 Behemoth Blade isn't guaranteed to do more than 100% to 252hp Arceus (they have an 81% chance to survive from full and that drops to 6% if they get hit by spikes or neutral stealth rocks once) and really struggles against Bold formes it can't hit supereffectively.
I'm not familiar with Necrozma-Dusk Mane EV spreads but +3 Tera Blast loses the guaranteed OHKO when NDM has 252 HP and at least 128 defense EVs. With 236, the chance goes down to 50% and with at least 228+, it doesn't even have a roll that OHKOs. I think this is even less of an issue than the others listed: NDM comes out a lot across a game and chipping it is really easy to do.
Personally I'd say it is Play Rough / Wild Charge / TB Ground in terms of coverage. I think this should be default on HO, though there is some flexibility in Close Combat and TB Ground. Play Rough is generally better coverage. Something frustrating that pops up reasonably often when I use Zacian-C is that Behemoth Blade requires a bit of chip to OHKO Marshadow neutrally (maxes at 80.3) and having to use Wild Charge to handle Yveltal. Chipping yourself to do isn't great and Foul Play hurts from defensive sets when you have to take it multiple times. Losing the normal resistance v Ekiller also isn't nice if you elect to use tera early on. Lacking Play Rough also means that Zygarde can Tera Water, stomach a +3 Wild Charge even in base forme, Glare, and then you have a Zacian-C that is easily revenge killed. It can do this regardless, but having that option to OHKO is quite nice if Zygarde isn't able to tera.

Just as Zacian-C can use tera to become threatening, other mons can use tera to cripple it with status to make it easy to revenge kill or this opens it up to stuff like Choice Scarf Yveltal, Marshadow, and even some more niche stuff like Chien-Pao. I havn't mentioned Lunala because the defensive set is close to unviable imo, but ig it does work as counterplay. Same with Crunch, that is and has never been worth it over the options Zacian-C has imo.

I do agree entirely about NDM as regardless of whether Zacian-C opts for CC or TB Ground it can SD, tera, and OHKO it after minimal chip if it wants. That is part of the reason I am not a big fan of defensive NDM. We can agree to disagree on the 4MSS. Zacian-C is threatening enough to non stall playstyles that it demands a fair amount of attention in the builder. Despite this, it is an excellent mon and if positioned well it will do enough damage that paves a path to victory if not outright sweep itself. This also applies to the Zacian-C user as you are somewhat often wishing you had a different move. However, your opponent doesn't know that and has to respect the possibility of everything. A team can't always stop a Zacian-C that gets a SD, but if it loses on the spot it probably isn't a good team.

I think it's funny how Steel/Fairy is stupendously good in almost every meta except ND ubers. Blanking Yveltal and Eternatus's stab combos is incredibly valuable, but in return for that you're weak to the litany of ground attacks in the tier as well as Sacred Fire. Zacian would be so much better if it was Steel/Dark. Resisting all 3 common priority moves, keeping its Dark resistance, and having a STAB that hits NDM supereffectively and hits Groudon at all. Maybe Kingambit deserves more experimentation.

From experience Gambit is good, but having to run Jolly to outspeed the uninvested base 90s it is trying to break holds it back a lot. Steel/Fairy is still a fantastic defensive typing. Yeah the ground weakness blows, but most tiers have a Ground-type amongst the top tier mons if not the top dog itself. Part of Zacian-C's issue, which is unique to it, is that it is the degree to which it is punished by having to run away from the Ground-types. Losing that +1 means missing out on a lot of KO's since mons that are aiming to check Zacian-C defensively generally need to account for +3. Getting absolutely screwed by Sacred Fire sucks, but being a very good Zacian-C check is a significant factor in Ho-Oh's viability, so it goes both ways. Giratina-O and Yveltal not having to worry about Play Rough would make them better Defoggers.

From my experience, switching in Zacian after losing a teammate and using tera Ground to survive an otherwise supereffective hit so it can use Swords Dance is a decently common occurrence. Ground doesn't provide any useful resistances but it does allow Zacian to survive a stray Earthquake or Judgment. Bulky utility NDM is hypothetically also a setup opportunity since the best option they have against you is Thunder Wave. Requiring something to die/be sacrificed to come in and set up sounds bad, but Zacian is almost always going to get at least two KOs in return if it successfully gets an SD off. The worst case scenario is that Zacian takes too much damage on the turn it uses Swords Dance and gets revenge killed by priority the following turn, which is admittedly a waste of a team slot (but also probably more a consequence of subpar decisions than a weakness of Zacian).
One of the most common ways I can semi-consistently get that setup opportunity with Zacian is taunting something with Yveltal, Gothitelle, or Arceus and letting them die so Zacian can come in not fearing a status move. Zygarde only needs to be chipped to ~80% for +3 Behemoth Blade to OHKO and with defensive tera Ground, Zacian doesn't fear a flaccid Thousand Arrows at all.

Surviving that hit to get the SD certainly can enable Zacian-C to sweep. Though if you're using Gothitelle surely you can just remove Zygarde? The issue Zacian-C has with Zygarde (defensive sets) is Glare. Yes you'll probably KO it, but yellow magic is yellow magic and there is a reasonable chance that Zygarde can Coil and then Rest. If you're using HO expending your tera to take out Zygarde. If you arn't it really is unless Zacian-C is going to sweep as more often than not you'll want to use tera on something else. If you've put all your eggs in the Zacian-C basket, this is a big issue. The same thing applies to Giratina-O which is usually EVd to take a +3 hit from fairly high health and you better hope it is Tera Poison over Tera Steel. Again, getting chip on these mons isn't hard, but they also arn't horrible for HO / Balance teams to deal with regardless of Zacian-C.

I think this is an interesting statement because after building the team I linked in my post, it appeared to me on the surface as a completely basic team. Kyogre, Arceus, Yveltal, and Glimmora all have very standard sets. Groudon's moveset is compromised slightly to fit Dragon Tail specifically for Zygarde but it's still a perfectly functional utility Primal Groudon. Most of the effort is in the thought behind the choices of team members and sets. While playing, Zacian is definitely at the front of my mind because it's the main win condition but the rest of the team is more than capable enough to make progress in a way that doesn't require an SD sweep. Choosing Kyogre because it's a good partner for Zacian doesn't feel like building a team to support a single Pokemon because those two match up well into each other's checks regardless of what team they're on.


All your points are valid. Honestly, my mental opposition to Zacian being below S- is just because it feels wrong. The Pokemon that was Power Creep Incarnate in its debut generation being worse than Ho-Oh and barely above the 600 BST Marshadow? It just doesn't feel right, which isn't a competitive argument but instead a rather silly emotional one. I don't have any strong feelings unless something very stupid happens with the next VR shift like Zacian or Kyogre dropping below A+.
I forgot to talk about the team, but Glimmora stood out as a very odd choice to me over something such as defensive Eternatus. I understand not wanting to tera, but Glimmora just really doesn't fit off of HO. Eternatus also gives you a Ho-Oh check which you're understandably concerned with though the rest of the team is fine against it. I'm really not a fan of the Primal Kyogre set, but Dragon Tail Primal Groudon is something I've run myself (Shadow Tag is broken) a fair bit and being able to phase Taunt Arceus is nice. Wisp is an odd choice though. I think ultimately it is fine for a mon to thud from time to time and as long as it pulls its weight in the other matchups its fine. That is what you accept when you use Zacian-C. It is a good mon, but if it had everything it needed in one set and could easily get that SD and sweep or set the field for something else to do so with a ton of consistency itd be on the chopping block if not banned already.


I should have clarified that the views I've expressed on Zacian-C are only my own and not representative of the rest of the VR council. I havn't really discussed Zacian-C that much with the other members, but even just from the votes it is clear that I am lower than the others on Zacian-C. The majority of voters have it in S-. Regardless of my vote on the next slate I wouldn't be shocked if Zacian-C remains S-. Even if it drops I would be shocked if it dropped below Marshadow and I'd be surprised if it dropped below Primal Kyogre. After all it is a council, not one person dictating the VR. Additionally, given that we arn't receiving any new mons it is hard for me to imagine that the tier shifts in such an offensive direction that Primal Kyogre would drop to A.

If it is any consolation, Zacian-C recieved an incredibly heavy nerf and would undoubtedly be NDAG without it. Personally, even with the IS nerf, if it kept 170 attack it would probably a bit borderline. The Zacian-C that personified powercreep is not the same Zacian-C of NDUbers. It isn't a mon aging poorly, it was a direct nerf.

Also, I wish there was a formal announcement about the Open tournament somewhere on the forum because I never had the chance to sign up.
It was announced here and on the #announcements thread in the NDUbers discord if you're a part of that. You're right that there should probably have been an announcement somewhere in this forum. I'm sorry you missed it, and frankly I probably would have as well. We can do better with communicating this sort of stuff. I'll make sure to personally let you know about any upcoming tournaments.
 
TBH given that usage stats just came out, I'd want to talk about something that has been trending in high ladder seemingly out of nowhere:

:sv/chien-pao:

Chien-Pao has been a Pokemon sharply raising in usage thanks to adem and me overall experimenting with it, it's surprising that something that hits as Choice Band Marshadow while using STAB moves with no immunities, and a Speed tier above most of the metagame saw so little use until recently.

Currently, the metagame leans mostly into fat balances/semi-stalls and hyper offense. Chien-Pao fits best in the former sort of teams as Choice-locked Pokemon are a liability for offense teams, and while Chien-Pao does get Swords Dance its lack of bulk prevents it from properly finding chances to do so, and it doesn't hit sufficiently hard after it pulls one on a forced switch as it's still unable to OHKO a foe, thus being KOed back instead.

Interestingly, its typing is surprisingly anti-meta, with the constant trend of Dragon- and Psychic-types, Chien-Pao can easily apply offensive pressure, and crucial resists to Psychic and Ghost do let it hard-switch into Ultra Necrozma and avoid being KOed by Marshadow's Shadow Sneak (something Pheromosa is unable to do).

Fat teams fear Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOing Ho-Oh and offensive PDons, while offense teams worry about its high Speed and multiple priority options in Ice Shard and Sucker Punch, even having Sacred Sword as an option to 2HKO checks such as Zacian-C and Arceus-Dark, overall making Chien-Pao an interesting aspect of the metagame these days even with its limitations on the defensive and longevity spectrums.
 
:cheem-pao:

+----------------------------------------+
| Chien-Pao |
+----------------------------------------+
| Raw count: 11881 |
| Avg. weight: 0.0967281762951 |
| Viability Ceiling: 93 |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilities |
| Sword of Ruin 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Choice Band 54.233% |
| Darkinium Z 21.392% |
| Focus Sash 19.943% |
| Other 4.432% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Spreads |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 40.423% |
| Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 23.054% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 17.564% |
| Jolly:40/252/0/0/0/216 14.279% |
| Other 4.681% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves |
| Crunch 81.044% |
| Sucker Punch 64.754% |
| Ice Shard 63.184% |
| Ice Spinner 52.370% |
| Icicle Crash 47.389% |
| Swords Dance 44.155% |
| Sacred Sword 31.982% |
| Other 15.123% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Groudon-Primal 67.368% |
| Alomomola 47.719% |
| Giratina-Origin 45.926% |
| Eternatus 42.818% |
| Arceus-Fairy 41.290% |
| Arceus 28.881% |
| Yveltal 22.752% |
| Calyrex-Ice 22.448% |
| Venusaur-Mega 15.822% |
| Melmetal 14.425% |
| Lunala 14.063% |

It is an interesting point Bob has brought up. The spoiler above is from the recently released 1760+ usage stats. Generally I take ladder statistics in this tier with something of a grain of salt due to the absurd levels of tomfoolery which populate even high ladder. This in conjunction with the small number of players actually playing at 1760+ (only the top 15 as of this writing) means that just a couple of people can have a disproportionate impact on the stats. i.e. LO Zygarde making up almost 10% of Zygardes at 1760+ despite only one person using it a couple of months ago. Mega Venusaur showing up as a partner 15.8% of the time as well despite Bob being the main person using it.

That being said, it is unwise to wholly dismiss ladder stats and there are often lots of great sets and compositions that originate in the ladder. Chien Pao is definitely real and if you havn't, I'd highly recommend checking out Bob's post on VR thread. I still think A- is too high, but it does provide a bit more information and some replays of Chien Pao in action to show that it isn't just a theorymon.

Chien-Pao has been a Pokemon sharply raising in usage thanks to adem and me overall experimenting with it, it's surprising that something that hits as Choice Band Marshadow while using STAB moves with no immunities, and a Speed tier above most of the metagame saw so little use until recently.

Currently, the metagame leans mostly into fat balances/semi-stalls and hyper offense. Chien-Pao fits best in the former sort of teams as Choice-locked Pokemon are a liability for offense teams, and while Chien-Pao does get Swords Dance its lack of bulk prevents it from properly finding chances to do so, and it doesn't hit sufficiently hard after it pulls one on a forced switch as it's still unable to OHKO a foe, thus being KOed back instead.

I this is something I've been thinking a fair bit about recently and I think with the benefit of hindsight Chien Pao didn't really come out of nowhere. You touch on this with your assertion that "the metagame leans mostly into fat balances / semi-stalls and hyper offense." I havn't laddered much recently outside of testing some teams so take this with a grain of :garganacl:, but when I have hopped on ladder these styles of teams often felt more overrepresented than truly the strongest. Personally I do think that fatter balances are the strongest playstyle at the moment, but BO and offences are better than they appear to be on the ladder.

The reason I say the benefit of hindsight is that Xerneas leaving the metagame has had a massive impact to say the least. I'd agree that Chien Pao is decent in HO, but HOs and the surrounding metagame do look very different today. During the Xerneas metagame your standardish HO would be:

Suicide Lead | :xerneas: | :zacian-crowned: | :necrozma-ultra: | :arceus: | +1

Chien Pao wasn't massively threatening to these sorts of teams as locking into any move could be immensely punished. The fatter balances that Chien Pao is fitting on were massively constrained during this metagame structurally and it was incredibly difficult to deviate from the more standard stuff. Xerneas leaving has opened up a lot more room defensively, notably with Alomomola going from something R8 fucked around with to a genuine part of the metagame. This applies to Lando-T as well to a lesser degree.

That also ties into how one decides to support :chien-pao:; adems aggressive :landorus-therian: or bobs supportive :alomomola:? I'd love to point to the Open as some source of data, but every time Chien-Pao has been brought it has been someone bringing Adem's team. It hasn't performed particularly well imo, but I'm willing to say that it is just people using someone elses team without trying to learn how it plays.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the Alo route. It provides a lot more leeway in bringing Chien-Pao in safely and provides substantial longevity to the rest of the team. The downside of this is that Chien Pao shoulders a much heavier offensive burden. This can get a little bit dicey as Chien Pao requires Stealth Rock to be removed regularly which can be exploited. Despite favouring the Alo route, imo both approaches are valid.

Interestingly, its typing is surprisingly anti-meta, with the constant trend of Dragon- and Psychic-types, Chien-Pao can easily apply offensive pressure, and crucial resists to Psychic and Ghost do let it hard-switch into Ultra Necrozma and avoid being KOed by Marshadow's Shadow Sneak (something Pheromosa is unable to do).
I only followed SS Ubers peripherally, but it is my understanding that a similar thing happened with Weavile so it isn't shocking that the same thing happened with Mega Weavile. I don't think Pheromosa is the best comparison though the point is correct.

Fat teams fear Tera Dark Crunch 2HKOing Ho-Oh and offensive PDons, while offense teams worry about its high Speed and multiple priority options in Ice Shard and Sucker Punch, even having Sacred Sword as an option to 2HKO checks such as Zacian-C and Arceus-Dark, overall making Chien-Pao an interesting aspect of the metagame these days even with its limitations on the defensive and longevity spectrums.
The one thing that people have never doubted is that switching into Chien Pao, especially after it Tera Darks is easy. It certainly isn't. It is something that I think fatter balance teams can and will, with time, reasonably adjust to. Mons such as Garganacl, Tera Fairy Eternatus, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Fairy, and Alomomola are all either reasonably common or staples on these teams. Sometimes Chien Pao will get the prediction correct everytime and just clean house, but all of these can afford to take a hit (Etern post tera) or use Protect to scout. It will always be something of a headache to navigate around, but these teams are generally competent at keeping hazards up which heavily limit Chien Pao.

------------
:rocky-helmet::alomomola: vs :heavy-duty-boots::alomomola:

Something I noticed when looking at the usage stats myself and wanted to touch on. Personally it is heavy-duty boots as they allow Alo to more easily maintian momentum or pass wishes. Not having to worry about hazards, toxic spikes in particular, makes it so much easier to use Alo as a scout imo. The Helmet Chip is nice, but being able to shrug off something like an uninvested judgement or defensive etern dynamax cannon / sludge bomb more than makes up for it. What do y'all think?
 
The last proper metagame discussion post I did was two months ago. With the NDUbers open in the rear view mirror, I thought it would be fun to do another one to discuss this tournament and opine on the current state of the metagame. First, a big thank you to Velroc for hosting the tournament and congrats to emoxu9 for winning!

I felt obligated to join the tournament. For the amount of time I spend discussing NDUbers both on Smogon and Discord in addition to being made a council member recently it felt wrong not to. Work is busy, but not so busy that I couldn't find the time. I did enjoy the Open more than the Seasonal. Building has been fun and reasonably flexible. The metagame is fluid at the moment and signifcantly matchup fishy than it has in a while. The tier is far from dead and it'll be interesting to see which trends today become staples and which ones fade away.

Before starting, I'd like to give a shoutout to BigBaurens and Mom Lover. I can't say I ever envisioned typing that sentence out. Both of these players are new to NDUbers, and have picked things up quite quickly and have even been teambuilding, something which was far too uncommon in this tournament. It is great to see them enjoying and having the effort they put in rewarded with success. I loved watching BigBaurens Drapple (probably not a huge shocker given my pfp) and Mom Lover's DD Zygarde + Choice Scarf Yveltal team is fantastic. It is leagues better than most of the teams I make. Hopefully they stick around for the long haul!

I'd also like to thank R8, Adem, Bobsican, Cyclonez, Entrocefalo, Eledyr, NeonJolteonWasUsed, R8 and Zrp200 for providing some feedback on the teams I built for the open. Four paragraphs is long, but relatively concise for me so lets get straight to the biscuits. Usage stats from the Open are in the spoiler below if anyone is interested.

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Groudon            |  141 |  72.68% |  47.52% |
| 2    | Ho-Oh              |   82 |  42.27% |  52.44% |
| 3    | Yveltal            |   71 |  36.60% |  40.85% |
| 4    | Zacian-*           |   68 |  35.05% |  44.12% |
| 5    | Zygarde            |   67 |  34.54% |  50.75% |
| 6    | Kyogre             |   59 |  30.41% |  49.15% |
| 7    | Eternatus          |   56 |  28.87% |  58.93% |
| 8    | Arceus-Fairy       |   49 |  25.26% |  55.10% |
| 9    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |   48 |  24.74% |  41.67% |
| 10   | Giratina-Origin    |   43 |  22.16% |  62.79% |
| 11   | Arceus-Dark        |   41 |  21.13% |  60.98% |
| 12   | Marshadow          |   37 |  19.07% |  51.35% |
| 13   | Arceus             |   36 |  18.56% |  47.22% |
| 14   | Lunala             |   28 |  14.43% |  39.29% |
| 15   | Alomomola          |   23 |  11.86% |  73.91% |
| 16   | Calyrex-Ice        |   20 |  10.31% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Arceus-Ground      |   19 |   9.79% |  52.63% |
| 17   | Deoxys-Attack      |   19 |   9.79% |  42.11% |
| 19   | Chien-Pao          |   15 |   7.73% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Ditto              |   15 |   7.73% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Arceus-Water       |   15 |   7.73% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Rayquaza           |   14 |   7.22% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |   13 |   6.70% |  30.77% |
| 24   | Deoxys-Speed       |   12 |   6.19% |  58.33% |
| 24   | Ferrothorn         |   12 |   6.19% |  41.67% |
| 26   | Tapu Lele          |   11 |   5.67% |  27.27% |
| 27   | Melmetal           |   10 |   5.15% |  40.00% |
| 27   | Mewtwo             |   10 |   5.15% |  20.00% |
| 29   | Gothitelle         |    9 |   4.64% |  33.33% |
| 30   | Dondozo            |    8 |   4.12% |  87.50% |
| 30   | Chansey            |    8 |   4.12% |  87.50% |
| 30   | Shuckle            |    8 |   4.12% |  62.50% |
| 30   | Salamence          |    8 |   4.12% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Hatterene          |    7 |   3.61% |  42.86% |
| 34   | Basculegion        |    7 |   3.61% |  28.57% |
| 36   | Landorus-Therian   |    6 |   3.09% |  33.33% |
| 37   | Smeargle           |    5 |   2.58% |  80.00% |
| 37   | Blissey            |    5 |   2.58% |  80.00% |
| 39   | Shaymin-Sky        |    4 |   2.06% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Grimmsnarl         |    4 |   2.06% |  75.00% |
| 39   | Arceus-Ghost       |    4 |   2.06% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Cresselia          |    4 |   2.06% |  50.00% |
| 43   | Zekrom             |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Giratina           |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Urshifu            |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Hydrapple          |    3 |   1.55% |  66.67% |
| 47   | Chi-Yu             |    2 |   1.03% | 100.00% |
| 47   | Arceus-Dragon      |    2 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Palkia-Origin      |    2 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Slurpuff           |    2 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Medicham           |    2 |   1.03% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Latios             |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 47   | Arceus-Rock        |    2 |   1.03% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Slowbro            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Diancie            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Arceus-Grass       |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Lopunny            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Mimikyu            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Lucario            |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Skarmory           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Ribombee           |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Terapagos          |    1 |   0.52% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Kingambit          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Iron Treads        |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Gliscor            |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Gholdengo          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Kyurem-Black       |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Garganacl          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
| 54   | Scolipede          |    1 |   0.52% |   0.00% |
Open Teams
Following the conclusion of Trios I'd one built one team that I quite liked. I happened to reach #1 on the ladder for the first time when testing it and was pretty satisfied with it and later posted in in the bazaar alongside a short write up. I'll do the same with the teams I've made for the open and go into more detail there than I will here as that is a more appropriate place as this post is going to be sufficiently lengthy already. Just going to plug that we are updating the sample teams to submit them in the bazaar if you'd like them to be considered.

After signing up for the Open I decided I wanted to build at least a couple new teams. I liked and do like Arceus-Adem, but I wanted to branch out and at the outset of the Open I had two teams I was content bringing. I did build a few more eventually, but that is better than nothing. I ended up writing more about the teams than I expected so I've put them in spoilers below to not clog up the post.

:groudon-primal::giratina-origin::arceus-fairy::zygarde-complete::alomomola::kyogre-primal: (click for paste) Team 1 - Alo + Offensive Primal Kogre + SD Overheat Primal Groudon

Team Origins

For my Trios match v R8 I was scared shitless of Gothitelle as R8 does use it on occasion and any R8 Gothitelle team will be fairly consistent at enabling [insert Gothitelle partner here]. Consequently, I went into the teambuilder and just created a new folder and put pretty much every single idea I had in. Most of these were just team names with the idea so I wouldn't forget, some had mons, but very few had sets.

A team in that folder was called ' Alo + Breakers' that was Alomomola + Primal Kyogre. I was intially slightly hesitant to build with offensive Primal Kyogre though this didn't stem from anything to do with the mon itself. Just before the Open I'd made a post discussing some stuff I'd be paying attention to and specifically mentioned how offensive Primal Kyogre was underused and pretty oppressive to balance structures.

I was a bit concerned about being scouted and whoever I faced prepping quite hard for that. At some point I realized that didn't really matter. I'm probably one of the easiest people to scout as my builder and teambuilding preferences are public. Part of what makes good mons good is that they're good in spite of metagame adaptions to contain them. Building around offensive Primal Kyogre isn't difficult and that lifted the mental block I had. After fiddling with it for a while, nothing seemed to click. After putting it hold for a bit I adapted the team from the Alomomola + Giratina-O core I'd used for the previous team and this is the result.

Team Breakdown

This team isn't particularly unique, but it is fun. There are adaptations I'm sure you'd need for ladder jank, but I didn't test it there. Offensive Primal Kyogre is a demon against balance and some bulky offense teams and is just generally annoying for most teams bar specific flavours of HO and some stall teams. The nuclear power is offset by its lack of recovery, speed, and poor physical bulk. Defensive Primal Kyogre doesn't have these issues, but plays very differently and I wanted a more immediate threat and also just to blast some shit.

This defensive is similar to the one it is based on. This results in the last slot being somewhat free as most offensive breakers in that slot will work fine. I wanted to use Primal Kyogre, but a fast offensive mon such as Eternatus, Marshadow, or Chien Pao work as well and probably better. This teaam isn't unique or innovative, but it is fun.


:pmd/groudon-primal: This is a set I sometimes enjoy using with Stealth Rock Arceus-Fairy and Alomomola. It can work without Alo, but functions so much better with Wish support. This is a weird set, but one I have used before and have been using with increased frequency. The SpD EVs make defensive Primal Kyogre's Ice Beam and 4HKO and allow Primal Groudon to survive offensive Arceus-Ground Judgment after Stealth Rock as base Primal Groudon. The speed is to outspeed paralyzed Zacian though it could go slightly higher as the Atk EVs are largely a dump.

Its main role is to support and wallbreak or slow down offensive mons on balance and bulky offense teams. It will sometimes do that latter with SD, but that is a luxury. It is especially nice against fatter squads. Overheat continues to be great, but Rock Tomb is really nice to slow down Arceus formes, Marshadow, and Eternatus on the switch. Other than that it just does normal Primal Groudon things. The main drawback of the decreased SpD is being unable to tank a Psycho Boost which did come up in R1.

:pmd/giratina-origin: This is the same set I used previously. The Spe outspeeds uninvested Zygarde. The defence lives any +3 Zacian-C hit after Stealth Rock. I can't remember exactly what the SpD was, I want to say +1 Eternatus Fire Blast or something. The remaining EVS are dumped into SpA for some power. Giratina-O synergises so well with alo that the slight bulk reduction isn't noticable as it can easily be healed against anything other than HO. Just an honest and solid mon, especially when you don't have to meticulously manage its HP.

:pmd/arceus-fairy: At this point this can be called my standard Arceus-Fairy set. Fitting Stealth Rock on this is what allows that Primal Groudon set to work. It doesn't hate burn but does hate Toxic and Thunder Wave. Round 4 Game 3 shows just how much work it can put in. It shuts down the opposing Arceus-Fairy due to outspeeding it and Taunt. It switches in effortlessly to Yveltal without having to Recover every time due to the SpD investment.

:pmd/zygarde-complete: Bog standard Zygarde. Tera Poison or Dragon Dance might work on this squad. It is mainly there to wall physical things and provide speed control with Glare. It can be a wincon, but it really is here to support the team.

:pmd/alomomola: Alomomola is what allows the team to work. Giving Primal Groudon and Giratina-O a second wind allows them to be played so much more freely. Pivoting is also great and is the reason why I won a couple of games. Alomomola is great at bringing your breaker at least once and more, especially against fatter balances. It is somewhat restricting as it wants a decently SpD Arceus-Fairy or Dark For Yveltal. Not an issue because they're great, but Yveltal will be a big threat without those.

:pmd/kyogre-primal: It is a very fun breaker. It has a bit of bulk to live CB Marshadow Low Kick and uninvested Precipice Blades after a Rock and Spike.This came into play in Round 4 Game 3 it let me switch it in safelyish on Primal Groudon with a stored Wish. The speed tier is fairly flexible for a bit of bulk that can go a long way, Primal Kyogre is very flexible.
:groudon-primal::ho-oh::arceus-dark::zygarde-complete::zacian-crowned::marshadow: (click for paste) DD Zygarde + Zacian-C + CB Marshadow

Team Background
This team started with wanting to use Marshontio Banderas. It came together surprisingly quickly. It is somewhere between a balance and BO.

Team Breakdown

The team evolved to be a more offensive balance bordering on BO and is fun to use. Dragon Dance Zygarde tends to be the main breaker and Arceus-Adem often cleans up.


:pmd/groudon-primal: Standard defensive Primal Groudon. Overheat is dope. Toxic Ho-Oh/Giratina-O and they're easy to deal with. Ol' Reliable.

:pmd/ho-oh: Ol Reliable #2. Does the same shit as always. Just because it is less used does not mean it is any worse. If anything it is more effective at soft checking half the metagame and providing all that role compression.

:pmd/arceus-dark: Arceus-Adem is a beast. Arceus-Adem was also unfortunately haxxed to death multiple times. I wanted this team to be slightly more aggressive than the Alomoma stuff I'd been building with so went for Taunt. Speed outspeeds +1 Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. The SpD is also great, being a decent answer in a pinch to Meteor Beam Eternatus. It can deal with physical attackers but relies on others for that often.

:pmd/zygarde-complete:This is new reliable. It is the first time I've used DD Zygarde in a bit and I forgot how good this mon. It is the most common tera user as +1 Tera Ground is great for breaking through support Arceus formes execting Coil. It is potent, but it has to played mildly carefully. Fantastic breaker into balance, ok into offence and some ho. There are a lot of teams that don't really have an answer and i'm not a fan of tera water, but I do like Tera Fairy. Z moves are above my skill level to effectively use. Give me that leftovers recovery. I did happen to meet Bob while testing this on the ladder.

:pmd/zacian-crowned: It is just here so CM Arceus formes don't cause trouble. Some speed control was nice, but I havn't used Zacian-C in a little bit. Its alright, it did its job, but a mon of its rank should be doing more. It compressed an offensive answer to CM Arceus, Ekiller, and LO Yveltal. I never play well against that thing. It could run Play Rough to do better into Choice Scarf Yveltal while still being okish against CM Arceus formes.

:pmd/marshadow: Namesake of the team and does great. I'm not the best user of CB Marshadow, but it is so fun to use. Great anti HO and a breaker at the same time. It can often switch into one thing. Especially if the metagame continues to get fatter it'll find more opportunities to get in easily.
:groudon-primal::ho-oh::arceus-dark::zygarde-complete::calyrex-ice::necrozma-dusk-mane: (click for paste) - Caly-I + Double DD BO

Team Background

The initial team, which I built in five minutes was this. Caly-I is something I hadn't used in a while and I wanted to start with a fresh slate rather than update my old Caly-I team. That didn't take too long and I wanted to see if Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM would fit. Made a few changes after a couple of test games with Adem.

Team Breakdown

It is a bulky BO team that can play some longer games. Primal-Groudon + Ho-Oh defensive core + 4 offensive sets on Pokemon that are still decent defensively. I wanted to use Calyrex-I and it is still great as a breaker. It does need proper support though.

:pmd/groudon-primal:Ol Reliable. Same as above. I wanted CM Arceus-Dark on this team so Primal Groudon is the rocker.

:pmd/ho-oh: This was intially an offensive set but I didn't feel the damage was worth the reduction in bulk since having a better fogger for Calyrex-I is nice. Went back to Ol' Reliable #2.

:pmd/arceus-dark: I wanted a more aggressive approach and it is possible Arceus-Fairy is better LO Yveltal Counter. It is also nice for Meteor Beam Eternatus in a pinch. It can switch more freely into status if needed against fat / stall teams due to Calyrex-Ice.

:pmd/zygarde-complete: Same Dragon Dance set I used before. Wanted it for similar reasons. Always outspeeding at least Marsh, Etern, and support Arceus formes after a Dragon Dance and deleting them w/ Tera Ground is great, especially OHKOeing Marshadow and Eternatus. It isn't completely useless v stall thanks to Dragon Tail and can be healed by Calyrex-Ice.

:pmd/calyrex-ice: I hadn't used Calyrex-I in forever and wanted to. It is still really good, but is support reliant. Not something to just stick on a team. It hits hard enough that it can be used to tera defensively to help patch up a bad matchup against some threat if needed. It is far better to support it defensively and it can provide defensive support against fatter teams via the threat of Glacial Lance or from utility options. This could be Seed Bomb given how annoying offensive Primal Kyogre can be. Shoutout to Adem for suggesting Tera Fairy after I had talked about Tera Dark over Steel.


:pmd/necrozma-dusk-mane: I wanted to see if it could fit and it sort of does, but could be replaced. It combines with Calyrex-Ice to ensure that support Arceus-Formes are of little concern and is quite nice at drawing out some teras. It is usally a midspeed breaker that outpaces the cluster of defensive Pokemon by hitting 331 Speed at +1 and unleashing a Z which is very hard to wall. Photon Geyser could be used here as well. The EV spread can likely be further optimized to live some hits. The bulk is generally enough to get of one Dragon Dance, but rarely two. It is a fun mon.
Teambuilding

Teambuilding is by far my favourite part of mons and I enjoy building for every style, even if I don't like using it much. Between work and irl stuff I've been fairly busy for a while. I've built some teams here and there, but the ones above are the ones of them I'd bring to a game I want to win. Building is in an interesting place, for example Bobsican made a Chien-Pao Semi Stall featuring teleport Blissey. BigBaurens of course brought the GOAT :hydrapple:.

The metagame is pretty diverse, but there are undoubtedly a few mons that are either underdeveloped or underexplored. This makes for a pretty interesting time to build as every teamstyle is pretty viable and experimenting feels eaiser than ever with a solid team. The ebb and flow of the metagame certainly favours teambuilding over raw piloting as even small changes can have a big impact.

On a grim note, Eledyr posted an absolutely demonic Mental Herb Imprison Gothitelle in the NDUbers Discord and I'm not sure if I am more horrified or disgusted at the prospect of ever having to run into that. HOs have shifted a fair bit and it is a bit surprising to see Dragon Dance Rayquaza not making its way onto many HO's. That thing is silly. Chi-Yu is a little underrated on Sticky Web teams as well. It is a good time to be a builder.

The Ever Shifting Threatlist

Even which are scarcely played outside of the occasional tournament still have metagame trends and adaptations to counteract them, ableit slowly. It shouldn't come as a surprise that National Dex Ubers is no exception. I noticed that some of the teams I'd built a while ago had aged quite poorly. I don't have an issue with that, tiers change, but it is odd to have outdated teams that are not that old. Experimentation is higher than it has been in a while and NDPL is happening soon. It is an ever shifting landscape out there.

The most prominent teambuilding change I've personally had is being fairly comfortable with Zacian-C despite not attempting to overly answer it as I would a few months ago. Most of the teams I've built recently have been fine against Zacian-C, it just feels wrong to say that about it. Every player and every playstyle is going to run into issues with a certain matchup. What is threatening to my balance teams is not going to be the same as what is threatening to hyper offense. Some of mine are CM Arceus formes, LO Yveltal, Marshadow, and Ultra Necrozma. Which mons take most of your attention?

I'd like to clarify that this is for when I build properly. As mentioned above, different playstyles have different mons that require more consideration in the builder. For example, if you primarily build HO you arn't going to be particularly concerned about Gothitelle. Similarly, as a balance player, Ditto is much less of a concern.

Top Threats

:pmd/yveltal: (Life Orb) I find it a lot easier to keep counterplay to Life Orb Yveltal at the forefront of my mind when building rather than addressing it afterward. I'll also want different checks on certain teams. Fortunately, there is a fair amount of flexibility in how to go about this. Zacian-C is good offensively, but my teams are rarely offensive enough to rely on it. Most often I'll enlist to an Arceus forme and that effects the rest of the team.

This tends to be Arceus-Fairy or Calm Mind Arceus-Dark although other Arceus formes work on sufficiently offensive teams. Yveltal is the primary reason I run Timid Arceus as to not be locked out of Recover or a boosting. Slotting in Yveltal counterplay is easy, but it is a mon that teams can be incredibly weak to if it isn't respected.


:pmd/kyogre-primal: My teams tend to handle defensive Primal Kyogre quite well. It takes long enough to get going that I can at least force out or leave it at very low hp. Alomomola even passed a Wish on it while healing health with Regenerator. Offensive Primal Kyogre is a huge threat though. It can be nearly

Defensive Primal Kyogre is reasonable to handle as it requires a few boosts to become a proper threat. Defensive Primal Groudon plus some stuff that threatens it somewhat is usually fine. It was great to see San Antonio Women dismantling this Ferrothorn, Eternatus, Arceus-Water team. Offensive Primal Kyogre though, that is a nightmare if arn't running offense and it'll still do well into BO. The difficult thing is treading a line of being acceptably weak to it. Fat balance teams can afford to contain it easily, but a standard or more offensive balance needs to find that sweet spot. A bulky, but not fat balance that has Primal Kyogre on lockdown often opens itself up to something like Meteor Beam Eternatus which is much harder play around.

:pmd/marshadow: Unless you run Psyspam or stall seeing a Choice Band Marshadow on the other side of the field is never fun. It hits hard enough that even when the wrong move is clicked it still leaves a dent. If it clicks the right move something is probably dropping. I'm lucky Zygarde is my favourite Pokemon in the tier and it can handle it offensively or defensively. There are other options, but it is difficult for HO while BO and balance teams are only going to have so many answers. If the team can't reliably force it out after it claims a mon that is an issue. A patchwork approach does work for more offensive teams.


:pmd/necrozma-ultra: This really comes down to respecting it in the builder. Do that and it should generally be fine, don't and it is going to a demon. Fortunately, it isn't just Arceus-Dark, Marshadow, or Yveltal. I've used Coil Zygarde + Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy a lot which works well. Ditto revenge kills it and Alomomola can Tera Dark and Toxic stall if needed. There are a lot of ways to go about handling Ultra Necrozma, but relying on a flimsier method of dealing with it is going to lead to getting swept a lot.

:pmd/gothitelle: Shadow Tag is uncompetitive and has an unhealthy effect on teambuilding. Gothitelle is near deadweight against HO, the main exception being the mon above it. Having to dedicate a slot or two to HO happens on other teams and isn't a huge deal given how well the top mons compress roles.

Gothitelle isn't something that you just slap on team, you do have to build around it. It still isn't hard to build with and enhances other mons like nothing else. It doesn't trap everything, but its net is wide enough to catch a large and important part of the metagame. Gothitelle even has the freedom via tera to trap a specific set if it wants, making the Pokemon it is supporting incredibly consistent. Getting the trap off it not difficult and being the recipient is very different to facing some offensive threat that you can at least attempt to dance around. Switch-in Ho-Oh to Defog and its gone. Use Primal Groudon to do Primal Groudon things? Goth Tera Waters and now easily traps it.

Performing any defensive function is always a risk when Gothitelle is on the other team. Gothitelle proofing a mon is doable, but it often comes with a huge drawback into most other teams. Making a team more resiliant to Primal Kyogre often comes with other benefits while doing the same for Gothitelle doesn't. This is compounded by Gothitelle itself being uncommon, but common enough. You'll win more games by wholly ignoring Gothitelle, but when it does show up you'll likely get goobed.

That is a really shitty place to be in as a builder. Gothitelle is too consistent of an enabler. It really should be used more than it is and I'm hoping it sees more use in NDPL. I'd love to see it goob some of these fat balances that are running around.

Things I keep in mind


:pmd/dondozo: This is a placeholder for stall. Stall is not very good, nor is it hard to beat, although it should still be respected. Fitting the tools to handle stall are not hard to find, especially on balance and BO teams. Outside specific types of HO prepping for the stall matchup is easy and it is often not worth greeding to ignore it. Just having the tools is enough so long as you arn't overzealous in wanting to end the game.


:pmd/eternatus: (Offensive) Usually my teams handle defensive Eternatus sets without a ton of issues. Offensive Eternatus is one of those threats that can sneak up on some slower balances.Handling it offensively can be difficult as it'll often claim a KO, but it can reasonably be forced out or revenge killed after. Bobsican and Big Baurens were using Teleport Blissey on semistall and fat builds which was interesting. Being alright against offensive Eternatus doesn't take a ton, but it is better to fill that earlier on.

:pmd/arceus-ground: Some teams are weak to it as a whole, but I at least try and make my teams able to handle Taunt Arceus-Gound. That has plagued a lot of my teams in older metagames and is a rare set that is harder to handle defensively. If the team can handle that they're probably okish in to most other sets defensively. None of the threats are individually very threatening, but due to all the moves and spreads Arceus-Ground runs, some combination probably puts in work against any team.

:pmd/zacian-crowned: It has been a long time since I've made a team that I've finished and noticed it had massive struggles with Zacian-C. In previous metagames it was a conscious part of the teambuilding process, but now it sort of happens unintentionally. Just attempting to deal with other mons generally means that dealing with Zacian-C is probably alright. It is still a threat that can be covered fairly easily over a team as it is only going to have 4 moves. Giving it a free SD isn't gg if it forces something out. It is still a very good mon and needs appropriate counterplay, it can just be fairly loose.

:pmd/arceus-fairy: (Calm Mind) This applies to other Arceus formes, namely -Dark. The trend Zacian-C likes is a rise in Calm Mind Arceus as it handles them well. Outside of that they're both the best Calm Mind users. Arceus-Dark is slightly better into the metagame at large, but thuds into Arceus-Fairy. Arceus-Fairy has more common roadblocks such as Ho-Oh and can require a lot of chip to get past that. It is a more offensive answer to LO Yveltal which is nice, but both can counter it. Other CM Arceus formes are decent, but Dark and Fairy are self sufficient. If you're running a slower team, they can really shut you down with Taunt. Its best to try and have some plan.

Hourable Mentions :arceus::glimmora::smeargle::deoxys-attack: | :chien-pao::garganacl::chi-yu:
Pokemon on the right are ones that are picking up a bit more usage and I think Chien-Pao and Garganacl are things I'll likely consider more actively in the building process going forward.

Playstyles


HO (A-) HO is at a crossroad. It is a strong playstyle, but it is a step down from the Xerneas metagame and still feels unexplored. The playstyle is good, but less consistent than it was. Who knows how HO teams will adapt to the fatter balances running around? Though faltering a little bit, HO feels one small adaptation and it will be back to its spot of great rather than good. A lot of this stems from the high level of freedom in the builder at the moment. Past metagames were signficantly more centralized and consequently, each slot had an easier time providing consistent value. The HO staples still do provide consistent value, but the options for mitagating them have become more fluid and more varied.

Sticky Web is maybe the strongest HO archetype, but also tends to be quite skill expressive. Every now and then I need to remind myself that 09-10a using Sticky Web (and Smeargle) makes it feel insurmountable. Sticky Web is somehow simultaneously easy to both maintain and remove. Matchup does play some role in this, but webs teams are able to overcome their poor matchups more easily than other HO archetypes. It heavily rewards active building, but will always be somewhat dishonest and cheap despite being decent. More people should try Chi-Yu.

Hstack HO would be the other contender for the strongest HO archetype. I do think Sticky Web is slightly better, but Hstacks offer consistency and easier piloting in exchange for a lower ceiling. Deoxys-S is slightly better than Glimmora, but I'm unsure if this is a result of selection bias. Deoxys-S undeniably has the pedigree and flexibility to dictate what beats it. However, Glimmora is substantially more annoying to deal with and makes me hope that Game Freak does not use stepping on a Lego brick as inspiration for designing Pokemon moving forward. Ultimately, Hstack as a whole needs some more exploration as innovation seems to have stagnated somewhat.

Despite being an offshoot of Hstack, Psyspam is really its own thing. It has had some experimentation beyond the original team with DD Arceus-Ground, Zacian-C, and Basculegion, though that was some time ago. Animememer subsituting Ultra Necrozma for WP DD NDM is the only recent development I've seen. I'm a firm believer that there is room to innovate on Psyspam despite having zero idea what it would be. Though still viable, Pyspam really doesn't like recent metagame trends such as CM Arceus-Dark and -Fairy being better than ever. I'd still run Psyspam before Trick Room or Screens, but it is currently quite fishy. I do quite like that fast strong physical mon so Zacian-C, DD Arceus-Ground fill that well, I wonder if DD Necrozma-DM could fit over Ultra Necrozma?

Screens....they exist? They arn't bad, but they certainly arn't good. The investment just seems a bit much to be worthwhile as I can't think of any mon that is consistent enough to justify building around. Some sort of semi screens team with defensive mons such as Ho-Oh or Eternatus that can spare a moveslot seem kind of interesting. That isn't HO though and damning with feint praise.

BO (A) Bulky offence and just offence in general has transitioned to a pretty good state in this metagame. I'd generally perfer to load BO to HO at the moment. BO retains a high threat level with some semblence of defensive utility to play that favours aggressive positioning but does not punish mistakes as harshly. This measured risk that puts the game in your hands rather than the builder is appealing. A good BO or offense can go toe to toe with just about anything. I wish more people used Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM.

Balance (A) Balance has shifted a fair bit in how it is played an built. It has branched into a more proactive or fat approach with those bulky with middle-ground balances being a bit worse. More proactive play helps against offense but also the fatter balances that are being popular and still have a decent backbone. For example, Alomomola + Giratina-O gives a defensive core a lot of longevity while rarely being passive itself. That and Calm Mind Arceus formes seeing increased use would be the two biggest changes in how balance is played or built. Alomomola has done a lot for enabling a lot of new structures that can run more offensive sets due to the Wish support.

Fat Balance (A) I still think it is arguably the best playstyle. Balance > Fat Balance >Offense for me, but you can put them in any order. All are good, but fat balances have been seeing a lot of changes as it has both diversified and is used more often than ever. Bobsican and Bigbaurens have been experimenting with Teleport Blissey. Bobsican made a RMT recently of Chien-Pao Semi Stall. Bob has been enjoying 'Chien-Pao Fat' for a while now and it is really good. Fat + and offensive mon in the last slot is pretty good. Eternatus is a personal favourite. Garganacl deserves a shoutout as well.

It'll be interesting to see how things turn out because the rise of fat balance is the last biggish meta trend at the time of writing. It is something I can see a lot of people opting for in NDPL. It is safeish to load while having a lot of room for tweaks and further exploration. These fatter balances are exploitable and it will be interesting to see how the metagame adapts in turn. Outside of stall, any playstyle is good to bring.

Stall (B-/C+) I don't find much has really changed for stall since my last post. Everything I said then applies now and despite some significant meta developments nothing has really improved for stall, but it also hasn't really gotten much worse. I havn't seen any new stalls that have made a splash. If you're facing someone that doesn't really play the tier sure you can fish with stall and there is a good chance it will work either through matchup or misplays, such as this R3 Game. I'm not saying Figment is new or doesn't play the tier, but that game should have been a very easy win.

I accidentally loaded the Giratina-O CM Refresh Arceus-Dark team instead of the Primal Kyogre one. That team isn't great into stall and emoxu9 played pretty much perfectly and it was still closeish. I'm adding this an an addendum that proves the point above. It took a very good player who played well, didn't fuck up, even got a few big misses, and it was still close against a team that is mediocre into stall.

:boi:The Gleaming Corridors of the 51st Floor :boi:

:pmd/arceus-fairy: This is to reaffirm what I've said in the past. Arceus-Fairy is still fantastic and I hope it rises a bit VR wise. The only real change is that Calm Mind sets have been ran more frequently, especially mono Judgment. A while back I did think you needed Gothitelle support to do that reliably, but Ho-Oh is relatively easy to remove or set up on if its Toxic'd.

My default is still Rocks Taunt, but I do like Tera Water Wisp sometimes. Utility Arceus Fairy's flexibility is what makes it splashable. You get good generic Fairy-type stuff and a LO Yveltal counter that can immediately threaten it back unlike Arceus-Dark. It can also handle a lot of the same threats Arceus-Dark does defensively with Tera Dark. It has been seeing a lot more use lately.

:pmd/arceus-dark: Arceus-Dark has shifted towards Calm Mind as the utility set that was a staple has fallen by the wayside. Arceus-Dark remains a fantastic Pokemon, but this shift is interesting. Calm Mind Arceus-Dark does fill the role of a LO Yveltal counter for teams that are ok not blasting it immediately and a great wincon at the same time.

HO teams, have had to fill a Xerneas shaped hole that has resulted in structures that Arceus-Dark has more trouble with. It is still decent against HO, but Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre, Yveltal, and Meteor Beam Eternatus are more common than ever. It also matches up poorly into Psyspam as Lunala will just Tera Fairy and delete it while Arceus-Dark cannot afford to Tera Poison. It also has issues with a lot of balance teams due to the rise of Arceus-Fairy and Alomomola among other things.

Defensive Arceus-Dark does still check the same Pokemon it used to, but the many other issues it has limits the teams it can fit on. Some of these issues can be fixed with a nature or moveset tweak, but they come with other drawbacks rather than improving defensive Arceus-Dark as a whole. For example, Timid Toxic Arceus-Dark is a usable Yveltal check, but now it really struggles against Double Dance Primal Groudon and finds itself more easily overwhelmed by HO, its raison d'etre. Excluding stall, this is a long winded way of saying it is really difficult to fit outside of offensive teams that would otherwise have significant issues with Pokemon such as Ultra Necrozma or Ekiller.

Fortunately, Calm Mind Arceus-Dark has taken the mantle. It doesn't handle everything defensive Arceus-Dark does, but it covers most of the important stuff. Ekiller is the biggest one, but Taunt does prevent it from setting up unimpeded. There are some minor things you miss i.e. Zacian-C overzealously switching in and getting chunked by Foul Play.


:pmd/marshadow: It hasn't really changed much since my last post, but that isn't a criticism. Then it was damn this is really good right now, but lets see how things shake out because the metagame has just had a massive upheaval. Now it is damn it is still just as good. I'm a little bit higher on Bulk Up sets on HO, but still not a big fan of AoA sets. The major meta changes are a bit of a mixed bag. Marshadow doesn't love the trend of Meteor Beam Eternatus picking up usage on HO. Nor does it love the rise of Alomomola and Garganacl not just in viability, but also usage.

However, it does quite like the fat side of the metagame shifting towards fat balances and some semistalls. Even with Garganacl and Alomomola, these teams often do need to play very carefully around Marshadow as it finds a lot of openings to get onto the field. I'd also be more interested to see Marshadow on these teams. I don't think it wholly outclasses Chien-Pao, mainly due to the Eternatus matchup, but it does serve the same function against most other mons and dealing with Ultra Necrozma via Shadow Sneak is a lot less risky than doing so via Sucker Punch.

I've acknowledged that Rock Tomb and Ice Punch have their merits in the past, but I've never been a particularly big fan of them. Rock Tomb is usable on some LO sets. I don't feel that getting that big hit off on Zygarde, which doesn't OHKO even ignoring tera makes it a worthwhile risk. Staying in and risking a Glare to secure the KO isn't worth it. Currently I find either hard to justify over Spectral Thief due to the prevalence of Calm Mind Arceus formes. It is such a nice safety blanket to have and even if Arceus-Dark teras expecting a Low Kick the boost it steals lets it live Judgment even if it is only +1 and makes lets Marshadow come in and spam Poltergeist later.

A well played Marshadow may well be one of the scariest mons in the tier. It isn't and probably shouldn't ever breach S-, but that is because of its near zero defensive utility. It is such a threat into most teams regardless of playstyle. To end on a sour note, I'm not a big fan of the Bulk Up Z set that has been seeing some usage. I see the appeal, but the risk-reward just seems too tilted in the wrong direction. The ability to occasionally sweep and surprise factor doesn't mitigate that you're playing with sashshadow a lot of the time.

:pmd/giratina-origin: It just keeps getting better and better. I hadn't yet at the time of my last post, but I've been spamming the ever loving daylight out of Alomomola + Giratina-O. Giratina-O got by on its bulk being good enough to overcome its polarizing typing. The resists are nice, but being weak to all of Ghost, Dragon, Fairy, Dark and Ice in this tier is rough. Especially given that Giratina-O isn't fast. One of the reasons I've historically strayed away is that I'm not great at playing offence and managing Giratina-O's HP is usually above my skill level.

Enter Alomomola. Giratina-O is better at receiving Alomomola's Wishes than just about anything else. It has reached the point where I genuinely don't like using Giratina-O without Alomomola often. Unlike me, if you're actually good, just tanking that hit, doing whatever utility thing is required, and blasting some stuff before going down is more than enough.

I do often flip somewhat between which tera type to run. Poison and Steel are both fantastic, but I find myself opting for the former more often. It makes the Zacian-C and offensive Eternatus matchup less stressful. If I were a better player, I'd probably perfer Steel. The one thing I havn't wavered on is that physical sets are mediocre. They're fine on the right team, but I find the phasing to be a tad overrated when the special sets are so consistent.

:pmd/rayquaza: Entro and I think Sami brought DD Rayquaza on HO. Someone else may have, but I don't recall and can't be bothered looking through 100 replays. DD Ray on Webs is incredibly scary and should be brought more. Ray is already a nuke then add +1, a LO and it can finish games or leave damage that can't be recovered, and that is before tera. It is a threat that should see a bit more use than it does. Band is still an amazing wallbreaker and though I havn't used it in a bit I really should. That speed tier is good, but not great. It is one of those mons that keeps fat somewhat honest. Being the slowest of the fastish breakers isn't ideal, but it is also the most immediately scary of them.

:pmd/alomomola: Alomomola is probably my favourite mon in the tier right now. It is just such a great support mon and enabler. Primal Groudon, aka the easiest mon to chip and remove in the tier is really just a temporary blocker of Flip Turn. Mola is also a refreshingly honest mon. It can be annoying, but it isn't unfair. Alomomola also isn't something that you can just chuck on a team and it will automatically click.

Phys def is not splashable at all. R8 has said from the beginning that phys def Alomomola is only really good for Zacian-C and that is spot on. Without the SpD investment even weaker special attacks such as uninvested Judgment will stick over time. This makes Alomomola end up having to spend a lot of time healing itself when it wants to be pivoting or healing its teammates. It ends up being quite exploitable and really isn't splashable. If the team is very weak to Zacian-C, phys def will fit, but it is far from splashable.

Mixed defences on the other hand? That is the shit. It isn't going to make a mediocre team good, but it is going to enhance an already decent team. Although it is far from a special wall, it can actually take a hit if needed. For example, in my R2 game it tanks a Deoxys-A Expanding Force, (only a 1/8 roll to OHKO feels wrong) and passes a Wish to Zygarde-C which gave that enough health to win the game. Having a slightly smaller Wish isn't an issue as the healing is more than enough even with high HP recipients such as Zygarde and Giratina-O.

Alomomola also went overtime in the next round as well. It tanked two +1 Knock Offs, living with 1%. It was then able to use defensive Primal Kyogre to regenerate health and pass a Wish to Primal Groudon. In R4 it allowed offensive Primal Kyogre to switch into Primal Groudon as Wish largely offset the risk of switching into Precipice Blades.

It has been the MVP of the Open for me. As freeing as Alomomola can be in game, it is somewhat restrictive in the builder. Unless you're going a semistall route without Primal Groudon as Bob did, you'll be starting with Alomomola + Primal Groudon + Defogger. This core is incredibly weak to LO Yveltal, so the Arceus forme needs to be able to handle it well. This means probably going with Arceus-Dark or Arceus-Fairy. At this point there are two slots left and a lot of special attackers are still quite threatening. You have two slots to both fit something more offensive and handle threats such as CM Arceus formes, offensive Eternatus (Specs & Meteor Beam), and offensive Primal Kyogre.

You can cover most of the metagame, but there is always going to be some special attacker which is difficult to handle. The nice thing is that Alomomola can help against a lot of these via Wish or Flip Turn so it isn't a complete lost cause. I'd be interested to see what others think about the fish.

:pmd/chien-pao: BobsicanPao has somewhat won me over. Before the Open I'd stated that Chien-Pao was between B+ and B in my eyes and that I'd like to see how if people are able to make it work beyond the couple of teams it had featured on at that point in time. BigBaurens did build with it and Bob has made semistall with it. I think Chien-Pao has reached the very good mon on the right team that can provide the support it needs that is B+. In this case it happens to be the mandatory inclusion of a good pivot. It is easier to provide that support than ever, but it is nonetheless required.

That being said, I do think Chien Pao has likely reached its apex. It is a relative newcomer that finds itself in a near ideal metagame to do its thing. I think that a lot of people are still learning or figuring out how to play around it and that will come in time. If Chien Pao does continue its ascent and force attention in the teambuilder I'm not so sure that it will remain such a potent offensive force. It is real and is here to stay, but I'd be very surprised if it maintains its dominance and I'm looking forward to seeing how it does in NDPL. If it goes ballistic there I could see it filling out A-, but even that is a bit optimistic.

More importantly, are those whiskers or eyelashes on its sprite?

:pmd/garganacl: To the chagrin of many, not only is Garganacl viable, it is good. For a long time it oscillated between viable and usable, something you'd run into on occasion, but rarely. In June it was almost Ubers by usage at 1760+ with 4.2% usage in June. Ladder stats don't mean much, but it is quite notable. I don't think Garganacl is a passing fad, but I'm interested to see if it is at the apex of its viability. It strikes me as a mon that will see more usage and experimentation in NDPL and I'm keen to see how it performs there. I view it as a B- mon currently with B potential.

:pmd/blissey: The pink blob have long been relegated to stall teams. Bigbaurens in the Open as well as Bobsican on the ladder have been using Teleport on fat balance and semistall. I don't know if one was inspired by the other or if they came up with the idea independently, but it is one that I like. If either he or BigBaurens would like to weigh in that'd be fantastic.

The ability to grab momentum is always great, but in this tier its scarcity only increases its value. Yveltal and Rayquaza can provide momentum via U-Turn for more offensive teams, but balance and fatter balance teams have really only been able to rely on Alomomola. Even that is a semi recent innovation and still somewhat underexplored. Bob's Alomomola + Chansey Semistall caught my eye as a double pivot team was something I've tried to make work in the past, but this is a much better way to do so. It is also the first time I've seen a semistall team I've liked since Koraidon was banned. I doubt Teleport Chansey/Blissey will become meta defining or anything, but it is a cool idea I wanted to discuss and hope it receives more exploration moving forward.

:blobpensive:Lost in the Supermarket:blobpensive:

:pmd/arceus-ground: I'm half tempted to copy-paste what I wrote two months ago as my thoughts have not really changed and if anything have only solidified. Being a half measure to a lot of mon is worse then being solid into a few mons, especially when those mons that would be well checked if not countered by a different Arceus forme.

I do think that offensive sets, whether Dragon Dance or Calm Mind are generally the way to go and it has been giving Ekiller more competition on some HO squads recently. Previously, I asked what I was missing. I still don't fully know the answer to that question, but part of is definitely a skill issue on my end. Whilst I consider myself a decent builder, I don't consider myself a fantastic player and Arceus-Ground is a mon where the reward is scaled with quality of play. I think it is still likely the best Arceus forme, but I also don't think there is much of a difference between Ground, Fairy, and Dark viability wise at this point.

:pmd/zacian-crowned: I've talked a fair bit about the issues I have with Zacian-C both above and in a recent VR post, so I'm not going to rehash those. The nerfs are really felt and the HO teams Zacian-C fits best on are on shakier ground than ever. It is still a very good mon, but this is also Zacian-C, it should be more than that. As a balance player I'm not exactly torn up given that a metagame where Zacian-C is a top dog again is one I'd find less enjoyable, but it still feels off. The one thing it does have going for it is that it is fantastic into the trending Calm Mind Arceus formes. If you want to toss a dog a bone you can add Chien Pao as well.

:pmd/necrozma-ultra: Neon has mentioned a couple of times how all or nothing Ultra Necrozma tends to be and I agree. It suffers from its own success. Saying eh good enough and I'll figure it out doesn't really tend to end very well. Not every team needs Marshadow or a Dark-type, but it should have reasonably solid Ultra Necrozma counterplay.

This can be a patchwork approach. For example, Coil Zygarde + Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy works well enough as getting past Zygarde requires ultra bursting and Arceus-Fairy can emergency tera if needed. I generally run Tera Dark Alomomola for a similar reason. Neither mons need to tera often so having an emergency check available will generally limit it. Even with every good team keeping Ultra Necrozma in mind, it can and will often put in work, but it is less consistent than it has ever been.

Misc Thoughts

:pmd/eternatus: I'm kind of surprised at how long it has been since I've seen Choice Specs Eternatus. The fatter balance teams that it fits best on have seen more use than ever. It is still at worst the #3 mon in the tier and can fit on most teams. I do find meteor beam sets to be a bit polarizing at the moment. Regardless of whether Sludge Bomb or Recover is used, the increased use of CM Arceus Formes are annoying for it. They all have to take it into account and consequently matchup very well against it. Defensive sets are decent on the right team, but still massively overused. Far too often I'll see people splash defensive Eternatus on a team because of how good Toxic Spikes are against offense rather than spending 5 minutes thinking about other options which would fit the team better.

:pmd/kyogre-primal: As mentioned before the open, offensive sets are stupidly scary against anything that isn't HO. If you don't run into HO or stall Primal Kyogre is taking one mon down minimum, and often two or three. It still feels underexplored and is a demon. It can fit onto more balance teams than it does. The Open was my first time using it in a while and it has been so fun and so good.

Defensive sets are still decent, but balance and fat balance teams can fairly easily contain it. Some of this has to do with Alomomola and Garganacl rising up. Defensive Primal Kyogre can maybe get through the former, though it is really damn difficult to get enough boosts to offset the Wish passing. It is never getting through the latter as Salt Cure accumulates damage too quickly. It was quite fun seeing Primal Kyogre blast through that Arceus-Water Eternatus Ferrothorn team though. Defensive Primal Kyogre is still good, just not as much as a couple of months ago.

:pmd/ferrothorn: It is way better than its results would suggest. A lot of people used it on some wack team that dropped Primal Groudon and still has trouble with Primal Kyogre despite running Arceus-Water and Eternatus. It is also very good into the fatter balances that have become more popular recently. I don't really have much to say other than it should be used more, but in a good way.

:pmd/gothitelle: Another mon that shows why win rates are kinda meaningless. A lot of its usage stemmed from a team I really don't like. CM Lunala is an interesting wincon, but supporting it with Gothitelle and a bunch of other mons that lose to Yveltal isn't the way. Emoxu9 showed the proper way to use and build with it.

:pmd/diancie-mega: Shyamin-Sky, Slurpuff, and Urshifu list among the tomfoolery that was brought more often than Mega Diancie. Usage stats and win rate don't mean much of anything, but I am really surprised it has only been brought once. A lot of people have brought HO and I'd have thought that a couple of the people would consider bringing it. Not only does it have a stellar matchup into HO, but it is genuinely annoying for a lot of balances to play around. I'm mostly bringing this up to say that if you havn't tried Mega Diancie, you should give it a go and it is a lot better than you think.

:pmd/hydrapple: GET DRAPPLED. Shocker that the Appletun pfp is a Hydrapple fan. R8 has mentioned that NP has potential for a while and and BigBaurens built around an AV set. Meming aside, I do think it may be able to eek out some sort of niche and is just a cool mon. In a metagame where Zygarde, and to a lesser degree, Primal Kyogre are as strong as they are, a lot of Grass-types can probably do something.

Is Hydrapple good? No. Is it viable? Maybe. Is Drappling someone fun? Definitely.

I'm putting this in a spoiler, but wanted to address the things I said I'd keep an eye on before the open that were not mentioned already

:arceus: This was the big thing I was paying attention to and I'm not really sure what the verdict is. My teams and a lot of the teams I helped people with have Timid Arceus formes. If anyone would like to give their thoughts on this specifically that would be much appreciated.

:necrozma-dusk-mane: Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM didn't really show up much at all. That is a shame. It really should be used more than it is.

:deoxys-speed::glimmora: I'm still kind of unsure which is the better lead for hazard stacking. Deoxys-S is definitely the better mon overall as it dictates what beats it and is the best screens setter if you want to use those. Glimmora is so much more annoying to handle, though personal bias plays a role in that.

:smeargle::shuckle: I'm not really sure if anything I saw changed my opinion. I'm still not sure how good Smeargle actually is given how much 09-10a has traumatized me with it. I get the feeling that Smeargle is better into my teams and playstyle whereas Shuckle is better v most other things.

:landorus-therian: I don't recall seeing it outside of Adem's team and that makes me a bit sad. Lando-T isn't really the type of mon I enjoy using, but I did hope to see more people experimenting with it. It offers some nice role compression on paper that I'm not sure translate all that well in game. I'm not great at using the types of teams it would fit on so I'm hoping that some people in NDPL give it a go.
 
I do think that offensive sets, whether Dragon Dance or Calm Mind are generally the way to go and it has been giving Ekiller more competition on some HO squads recently.
Not much of an ho specialist, but i've been toying a bit with Healing Wish on Dragon Dance Arceus Ground on this archetype (so dd eq stone edge hwish) and i think it might be the key to make it much more consistent overall as it sometimes feels like this set can thud a bit vs defensive teams and coil zygarde in particular (and dozo if that's a concern), and giving a second shot to LO Yvel or P-Kyogre vs those archetypes might definitively be interesting
 
I'd like to talk about some recently developed metagame threats:
:wobbuffet::sv/wobbuffet::wobbuffet:

That's right! :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet has been a rising unused Pokémon in the metagame, unlike the usual trapper in :gothitelle:Gothitelle, who mainly traps passive foes and tries to PP stall them while being worried about a critical hit, thanks to Encore, not only can :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet punish setup sweepers that try to evade Counter or Mirror Coat, it can also be used to ease prediction against foes that wouldn't 2HKO it like :mewtwo mega y:Mega Mewtwo Y, :necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma, and :zygarde:Zygarde, as well as still compress roles as a stallbreaker out of punishing passive foes as well.

Higher mixed bulk and not having to be 3HKO'd to do its job also means that it can remove some ridiculous stuff :gothitelle:Gothitelle simply can't, especially after Terastallizing, such as :chien-pao:Chien-Pao, :rayquaza:Rayquaza, and :eternatus:Eternatus. :Wobbuffet:Wobbuffet additionally has almost just sufficient Speed (which is handled with a few EVs) to outspeed stuff like :garganacl:Garganacl and :Dondozo:Dondozo, ensuring that it can lock them on a detrimental move for it or one of its allies to abuse.

Historically, :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet has been a very situational pick for offense teams, but thanks to :alomomola:Alomomola proviting longevity for :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet to keep removing foes from the game with Wish, and safe pivoting on top, I'd dare to say that it's a legitimate stall pick, allowing teams to pick whatever offensive threats they may lack room to properly handle and potentially raising teambuilding variety this way, as it's theoretically possible this core can also fit in balance teams, but we'll quickly know in the upcoming NDPL.

Overall, :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet has more versatility at what it can trap compared to :gothitelle:Gothitelle, namely being able to threaten offense and fat teams alike, but the only limitations really are its characteristic heavily limited movepool, lower Speed, and higher team support requirements, although its higher trapping potential as said before mitigates this.

:sv/hydrapple::sv/venusaur-mega:
As the metagame keeps having a particular trend of Ground-types (namely :groudon-primal:Primal Groudon, :zygarde:Zygarde, and :arceus-ground:Arceus-Ground) plus Water-types in :kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre and :arceus-water:Arceus-Water, some experimentation has been done in recent weeks for more uncommon Grass-types.

:Hydrapple:Hydrapple is the only Grass-type with Regenerator and sufficient utility to do stuff of note (sorry :tangrowth:Tangrowth and :amoonguss:Amoonguss), namely its Dragon STAB can annoy :zygarde:Zygarde, while also retaining a neutrality to Fire to somewhat handle :groudon-primal:Primal Groudon, although being weak to Dragon and Ice is rather detrimental in my opinion.

:venusaur-mega:Mega Venusaur was unranked out of seemingly having no niche, but as I began to explore it, I noticed that while rather situational, its good mixed bulk and neutrality to Ice and Fire thanks to Thick Fat lets it perform some interesting role compression at checking the combo of :zygarde:Zygarde and :kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre, which is valuable as this does not consume the opportunity cost of using an Arceus forme (namely :arceus-grass:Arceus-Grass).

:sv/cyclizar:
:Cyclizar:Cyclizar's Shed Tail is a rather well known utility move as it can simplify a lot the lead game, as with a Choice Scarf it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame, but what has made me notice it may have some extra potential is the fact that :lunala:Lunala's Shadow Shield also triggers on a Substitute if it's at full health. Because of this, :Lunala:Lunala with this support can be rather difficult to take down, especially for more defensively oriented teams. Technically one could also experiment similarly with Multiscale from :lugia:Lugia or :dragonite:Dragonite, as well as Tera Shell from :Terapagos-terastal:Terapagos, but those are still too underpowered to justify under the current metagame.

On another note, bumboclaat , to be clear, I found out about Teleport :blissey:Blissey independently of BigBaurens, looking back, it's weird that it wasn't experimented on for this tier already when Teleport :Blissey:Blissey is a Gen 8 classic, especially as it's the 2nd most specially bulky thing in the metagame (only behind :chansey:Chansey).
 
Back
Top