Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2

[adem]

Hi, I am nominating Mega-Charizard-X Rise to B+, and Mega-Slowbro Drop to B, or lower.



With Ace leaving the tier, a lot more offensive fires are now being used on teams more, stuff like Victini, Volcarona and MegaZardY are all rising in usage, as the fire slot is now gone, and mons which weren’t used much due to ace being common such as Amoonguss and Slowking are rising, furthermore with mag being extremely scary, and even bannable for some, I feel like MegaZardX’s defensive and offensive capabilities are amazing as of now.


MegaZardX, for a offensive fire type weak to rocks, has really good defensive capabilities from my experienced, alongside its wellknock offensive prowness, checking the aforementioned fires rising in usage, and mons checking such as Rillaboom and Kartana, and using the previously mentioned defensive mons as setup bait. This is due to its unique typing, coupled with respectable bulk (78/111/85), and consistent healing. Its high BP attacks, coupled with its boosting ability, lets it repeatedly chunk and wear down opposing mons, which are usually consistend switch-ins for it, which coupled with Healing Wish (will explain more after), and a reliable defogger (Corviknight/Zapdos/Rotom-W) gives it really good longetivity to let it sweep later on, and also covers up its tendency to kill itself whilst sweeping /breaking.


Scarf Jirachi, is a mon which I feel completes a good ZardX Bo Core, giving it reliable speed control, a way to lure in and cripple bulky waters via tricking its scarf, which supports Zard by letting it setup on these mons late game, and most importantly Healing Wish, which effectively gives Zard X the longetivity it needs to sweep, effectively doubling it. The rise in usage of Scarf Jirachi+Scarf Breaker (Usually Mega-Mawile) I feel really benefits Zard, as Zard can also utilise this extremely well, as most teams are usually too weakened to handle a second, full health, Zard X.



And about the MegaBro drop, i dont feel it can setup and sweep consistently as of now, with the existence and rise of rilllaboom, kart and setup mag variants, and is outclassed as a bulky water via the likes of fini and king, and even its pre-evolution; its niche as a all around ace counter also is gone, due to ace being banned.

Also unrank maero, unmon.

 

[peap]

Some meta development with the second Ace ban in the wake of the winter tournaments:

Serperior from B- to B+
In a meta with falling Blissey usage and 100% Magma Storm Heatran, Serperior can cheese through many matchups. Plus the natural predator of snakes, Cinderace, is no longer around to steal its momentum. I've been using the mono grass utility set to success:

Feta Cheese (Serperior) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Leaf Storm​

Base 113 speed helps it regain its throne as a fast Glare + Leech Seed user that sets the tempo of the game given a free switch. Highly ranked mons that it 1v1s or cripples include Greninja, Latias, Kartana, somewhat Garchomp, as well as common pivots like Slowbroking and Toxapex. The Leech Seed + Substitute combo gives Serperior annoying longevity as the opponent tries to pivot around it; typical Teleport users like Slowking and Slowbro are setup fodder for the snake. Blissey too can be cheesed with a series of Leech Seed predicts; once Bliss is seeded it can't pivot out while taking Substitute down. Similarly, Heatran can't switch into any move besides a predicted Leaf Storm, and then only inconsistently revenges naked subless snek due to the low accuracy of Magma Storm. Otherwise it succumbs to Glare + Sub + Leech, which consistently PP stalls Magma Storm. Lava Plume Tran is very weak versus our common water pivots and sees almost no usage this generation. And against consistent checks like Corviknight, MSciz, and slow U-turners, Serperior gets a Glare at the least, while the opponent has to watch out for getting behind in the Seed cycle as well as the possibility of HP Fire.

Given its speed, boosting, and hard-to-revenge setup conditions, Serperior reliably softens up walls for other potent breakers and vice versa. I've personally been a fan of Mega Garchomp, who much appreciates Paralysis and chip to get its Double Dance going. I brought this in Round 10 of Winter Seasonal where it acted as a wincon versus stall, despite my opponent having a Corviknight to pressure its PP.

tl;dr Many opportunities to set up, few mons can break its sub without taking damage/para, consistently opens up paths for other dangerous sweepers.

I have a couple other nominations but this is the one I'm most passionate about.

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

Following the mega charizard X comment, I guess I shall talk about how Mega charizard Y deserves a rise in viability rank as well.

Mega charizard Y has proved itself to be a giant threat a long time ago, ever since players discovered weather ball works on it, which was huge as flamethrower tends to miss out important OHKOs while fire blast has the tendency to miss. Weather ball has established itself as a solid mid ground option between these two, making it a highly spammable attack.

This combined with its 159 special attack, the sun, solar beam and focus blast/scorching sands coverage, there are really only a handful of common mons that can safely switch into it and heal back up, most notably toxapex, mega latias and blissey/chansey.

However, zard y usage has gone pretty crazy recently with blissey being more prone to yield to offensive pressure from Pokémon such as heatran these days.

Aside from causing a lower blissey usage in the tier, nowadays, heatran often finds itself in the same team as the zard y user to remove opposing blissey and pex, allowing zard y to easily destroy the remaining, frailer mons late game.

Heatran itself benefits from zard y due to the sun powering up heatran’s magma storms to become much harder for the opponent to try to switch in checks and tank a hit, such as Landorus T.

Other notable partners that made zard y even more fearsome are tyranitar and weavile, mons that have benefited from the leave of cinderace and can pursuit trap the aforementioned blissey/chansey, with weavile in particular, capable of knocking off chansey’s eviolite, as well as both mind game pursuit trapping and revenge killing the mighty garchomp. General Volt turn on other mons is also very useful for zard y to come in safely.

Overall, mega charizard y is a very easy to use and powerful wallbreaker that just gets better with the meta game shifting to a point that mons capable of switching into it can be more easily removed. I would not be surprised if it can be considered as broken at some point.

Therefore, I nominate mega charizard y to
rise directly from

B+ to A

 

[Nish the Great]

Heatran? 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 190-224 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
There is way you guarantee beat this thing on the switch. Your best bet is to predict the sd and switch in ash gren and ohko the maw with hydro.

Knock off won’t actually 2HKO because it’s base power will drop when Tran loses its item. However, a leftovers less Tran will get worn down enough to let Mawile break through

 

[Zed Thom]

Ever since the cinderace ban. The metagame has changed so much that its hard to believe we can have a meta like this. From my experience, the ladder battles are no longer about who can beat cinderace and the rest of the team. Its less Match up oriented but at the same time, Match up matters. But lets get down to Viability Rankings with my favorite Pokemon, Charizard. Just his mega evolutions though.

Mega Charizard Y is good! This boy is good! With drought as its ability, base 159 special attack, base 100 speed, and a nice movepool that benefits from Drought. This Mon can come in, bring in the sun and light teams up! Weather Ball is the Fusion Flare for this mon and this move can be used in other weather conditions to provide a new move and a new means of taking out Foes. But if using this move, you are walled by Kommo-o. Flamethrower is the bread and butter that kills mons and beats down teams while having a 10% chance to burn still and it hits hard while having good consistent stab outside of sun. Fire Blast is Nuke, no questions.. Zard Y has great fire stab Roost is a must have and it heals this mon, unless you plan to do a four attack Zard Y, but I don't recommend it. Solar Beam is a must have, and Focus Blast Deals with Tyranitar, Mega T-Tar and Hydriegon. Scorching Sands makes Heatran a near nonexistent problem and toxapex now has a new problem along with Zard Y being able to burn switch ins! However, it isn't without his weaknesses. Zard Y has a new problem thanks to gen 8's movepool buff and its that Zard Y has a four move problem. Focus Blast and Scorching Sands are must have moves for this mon. Along with Solar Beam and stab moves. So you either are using Focus Blast or Scorching Sand based off of which Match up you are more likely to lose to. T-tar/ Mega T-Tar or Heatran and other mons defensive mons like Toxapex. Zard Y does have friends to take care of his problems. I would like to mention CB T-tar and CB Weavile. These two will take down the major problems Zard Y faces along with adding an additional dimension on fighting other teams since CB T-tar will kill mega mawile with EQ once it sets ups when things get bad along with being a major mon that can tear apart stall nearly on its own with Zard Y. CB Weavile will kill dragons, knock off items, kill the lati twins and pursuit trap other mons too. Zard Y needs a lot of support to work though. Defoggers like corviknight and Zapdos do a great job at that. Corviknight can get momentum with U-turn and wall mons. Zapdos can do the same as well but volt switch isn't recommended unless you can pull it off. Zapdos also acts as a defensive mon against mega loppuny and mega medicham and potentially can paralyze them with static. Excadrill works well when paired up with T-tar too and this mon gives Zard Y some rapid spin support and speed control under sand. Teleport mons like Clefable, Slowbro and Slowking can at as defensive piviots and bring in zard Y with the greatest of ease! I also just remembered that Heatran does benefit form Zard Y thanks to Drought and trapping mons like Blissy and Toxapex for good. Because of the lack of Cinderace, Zard Y can do a lot more better in this meta. Also, if you want rocks, Kommo-o can be used for this while being an ash gren check. and to my surprise, garchomp since it can lure in mons like corviknight and other defoggers or rapid spin mons to set up in their faces or just hit them while being a needed ground type with stealth rocks. Also, i'll mention defog kartana, this boy really does a great job for Zard Y. Zeraora make good partners for Zard Y too, deals with the waters and flyings along with being speed control and a means of killing T-tar too.

As for viability Ranking... I would raise zard Y to -A or just remain the same. The reason why is that Mega Charizard Y now has a four move syndrome since focus blast and Scorching Sands are must have moves and you can use one or the other with major draw backs to both. Even if you use both, you lose solar beam and solar beam is a must have. On top of that, Zard Y can now deal with its counters, mostly. Focus blast can miss and Scorhing Sands isn't Earth Power. Mons like toxapex, Blissey and Chansey will wall Zard Y down. Without the needed support such as future sight and even spikes, and CB T-tar or CB Weavile... Zard Y will struggle and lose because of the lack of support.. Zard Y also has low physical defense and it isn't a switch in unless you are going to be the Goat and make a winning play. Overall, Zard Y has really improved over the changes to the meta.

Mega Charizard X is a threat to any team in general and he made himself more dangerous in gen 7 since he can take on toxapex and do damage with earthquake. Now in national Dex, Mega Charizard X still makes itself known and its a threat to just about any team! Zard X can run three attacks with dragon dance, two attacks with dragon dance + roost, Three attacks with Roost or even crazy sets like Swords Dance for mad killing and sweeping power! You don't know what zard x you face until its to late. Despite its counterpart being more stealth rock weak, Zard X still needs all the help it can get in order to destroy. From my experience, Zard X really benefits from having its physical walls takeout like landerous and mons like hippowdon. Bulky waters like slowbro wall Zard X and do so much damage and stay healthy thanks to scald + future sight + slack off. Fini can somewhat deal with Zard X thanks to its typing, bulk, leftovers and taunt. One major mon I can point out his tapu lele, this girl has the power! Slap a choice specs on her and she will start killing. On top of that, tapu lele provides psychic terrain and it makes Zard X have an easier time against priority attackers. Offensive grass types like Kartana or serperior can break teams down for Zard X as well and even provide defog if you so choose too. Excadrill works for Zard X while being able to be a threat. Zapdos not only is a good defogger but it also is a defensive pivot against mons like mega lopunny and mega medicham. Zapdos also acts as offense against water types too. Tapu Fini is a great partner and enemy for Zard X since Misty terrian will make Zard X unable to be affected by status moves and weaken dragon attacks for itself and other dragon mons that are grounded. But one new defensive mon that deals with Zard X is slowbro and it loses to it one on one, even with DD. Zard X will most like be set up. In other words, without Cinderace being around. Zard X can go ham but because of bulky water types like fini, slowbro and toxapex around. Along with mons like Lando always being around and even gliscor put down Zard X. Zard X still faces the same problem without any real buffs. After a DD, its more then likely GG when using Zard X. Top that off, Zard X can come in and be a defensive pivot on mons like rillaboom and kartana since it has base 111 defense and the fire dragon typing along with being a quarter weak to stealth rock. However, spikes will screw Zard X over badly. The same mons that Zard Y uses can be applied to Zard X as well but with some differences since ZardX isn't Zard Y.

As for viability ranking... Zard X will remain the same as a B+ mon. However, its a deadly mon that can sweep teams. I can't really boost it up to a -A rank mon since it faces the same problems but worse since future sight and scald on slowbro does so much and walls it. Zard X needs DD in order to sweep but if there is a bulky water type, then it has no means of beating it since you need mons like zapdos and a grass type to stand a chance against rain teams.

Overall, both Mega Zards have changed over time. The cinderace pan ban and new scorching sand has mad Zard Y better in dealing with heatran and toxapex along with being able to burn mons like T-tar on the switch. At the same time, its either Focus Blast or Sands. Zard X has always faced the same problems and its problems got worse but at the same time, its still doing what it does best. Both of these fire lizards are lit.

 

[Jho]

A quick update post to welcome Kate and MudkipBeans to the VR team! With the meta about to go through a pretty massive changeup we wanted to make sure we have as many different views on the meta as possible on the VR team to ensure our rankings are properly representative. Look out for a VR update after the post-magearna metagame starts to settle.

Congrats to these two!

 

[might dragon 1.2]

B+ to A-
it is a huge offensive threat that has good special bulk and sun weakening the water moves is also great living un evolved gren pump is also great and also setting up the sun for it's teammates like scarf/band vic solar blade kart and eruption heatran are the best of the bunch

A is little out of it's reach because of rocks but A- is really good spot for it

B+ to A-

A+ to A-

bliss is really good and annoying but A+ is just to much something like A- is much better because how many fighting attacker epically megas and just pokemon with really high atk like kart m maw and m sciz so the blob should drop

A+ to A-

A- to A+


this mon is a huge offensive threat can fit in all sorts of team with team support getting a kill is easy or you can just click spikes putting your opponent in a lose lose position this mon can be both a wallbreaker or a cleaner, after evolving most fast mons get smoked by water shuriken and dark pulse is a really easy to click this the 20% finch chance and A- is just horrific.

A- to A+

 

[ssuperiority]

B+ to A-
it is a huge offensive threat that has good special bulk and sun weakening the water moves is also great living un evolved gren pump is also great and also setting up the sun for it's teammates like scarf/band vic solar blade kart and eruption heatran are the best of the bunch

A is little out of it's reach because of rocks but A- is really good spot for it

B+ to A-

Let's not pretend Solar Blade Kartana and Eruption Heatran are good. By no means can Mega Charizard Y switch into Greninja, even without Rocks up.

 

[Avery]

I disagree with the idea of Mega Charizard Y rising.

The prominence of Mega Latias and the fact that post-Cinderace, more and more teams have been able to slot SDef Toxapex onto them have really been against Mega Charizard Y. Additionally, the structures that do fit Zard Y often need double Defog, normally with Fini / Kartana or Corv / Kartana. This really hampers the team, as the Fini / Kart can't act as wincons / breakers, since they're stuck supporting Zard Y. Additionally, the offensive Stealth Rock grounds are better than ever, despite Kartana being a solid Zard Y partner. Also, Pursuiting Mega Latias won't even win you the matchup, since many Mega Latias teams have a Toxapex in tow. This is purely defensive counterplay, as offensively pressuring a Pokemon with 100 base Speed and a crippling Stealth Rock weakness isn't exactly difficult with good play (see: Koko, Lopunny, Scarf Lando, Chomp, Weavile, the list goes on, these are just the upper A ranks.). While yes, Blissey usage is at an all time low, and Zard Y can pick against unprepared offense teams, I do not believe those merits outweigh the trends working against Zard Y.

 

[Optify]

I'm going to make this post as a response to all the Zard-Y talk recently, as I believe they have some flawed logic

Following the mega charizard X comment, I guess I shall talk about how Mega charizard Y deserves a rise in viability rank as well.

View attachment 333100 Mega charizard Y has proved itself to be a giant threat a long time ago, ever since players discovered weather ball works on it, which was huge as flamethrower tends to miss out important OHKOs while fire blast has the tendency to miss. Weather ball has established itself as a solid mid ground option between these two, making it a highly spammable attack.

This combined with its 159 special attack, the sun, solar beam and focus blast/scorching sands coverage, there are really only a handful of common mons that can safely switch into it and heal back up, most notably toxapex, mega latias and blissey/chansey.

However, zard y usage has gone pretty crazy recently with blissey being more prone to yield to offensive pressure from Pokémon such as heatran these days.

Aside from causing a lower blissey usage in the tier, nowadays, heatran often finds itself in the same team as the zard y user to remove opposing blissey and pex, allowing zard y to easily destroy the remaining, frailer mons late game.

Heatran itself benefits from zard y due to the sun powering up heatran’s magma storms to become much harder for the opponent to try to switch in checks and tank a hit, such as Landorus T.

Other notable partners that made zard y even more fearsome are tyranitar and weavile, mons that have benefited from the leave of cinderace and can pursuit trap the aforementioned blissey/chansey, with weavile in particular, capable of knocking off chansey’s eviolite, as well as both mind game pursuit trapping and revenge killing the mighty garchomp. General Volt turn on other mons is also very useful for zard y to come in safely.

Overall, mega charizard y is a very easy to use and powerful wallbreaker that just gets better with the meta game shifting to a point that mons capable of switching into it can be more easily removed. I would not be surprised if it can be considered as broken at some point.

Therefore, I nominate mega charizard y to
rise directly from
View attachment 333100 B+ to A

Now you do present a fair point here by saying blissey usage has fallen, but blissey is just a drop in the pool when it comes to zardy counters, and when your counters are some of the most common pokemon in the meta you're gonna have a hard time making any form of progress, latias, toxapex, ands tyrantitar. Now you can argue that these can be managed through partners but that's not what the viability rankings are about at all, it's about how well the mon itself matches up against the current meta, and currently charizard does not do that very well at all, especially not well enough for such a massive shift, putting it on the same rank as meta staples such as weavile, mega medicham, and the tyranitar formes.

Ever since the cinderace ban. The metagame has changed so much that its hard to believe we can have a meta like this. From my experience, the ladder battles are no longer about who can beat cinderace and the rest of the team. Its less Match up oriented but at the same time, Match up matters. But lets get down to Viability Rankings with my favorite Pokemon, Charizard. Just his mega evolutions though.

Mega Charizard Y is good! This boy is good! With drought as its ability, base 159 special attack, base 100 speed, and a nice movepool that benefits from Drought. This Mon can come in, bring in the sun and light teams up! Weather Ball is the Fusion Flare for this mon and this move can be used in other weather conditions to provide a new move and a new means of taking out Foes. But if using this move, you are walled by Kommo-o. Flamethrower is the bread and butter that kills mons and beats down teams while having a 10% chance to burn still and it hits hard while having good consistent stab outside of sun. Fire Blast is Nuke, no questions.. Zard Y has great fire stab Roost is a must have and it heals this mon, unless you plan to do a four attack Zard Y, but I don't recommend it. Solar Beam is a must have, and Focus Blast Deals with Tyranitar, Mega T-Tar and Hydriegon. Scorching Sands makes Heatran a near nonexistent problem

This paragraph is strange to me, and is an issue with both posts to me, it doesn't actually say what's changed to make them deserve a rise.

toxapex now has a new problem along with Zard Y being able to burn switch ins!

Toxapex now runs specially defensive, and doesn't care even if it gets burn't with rocks up

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Toxapex: 102-122 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage

Ever since the cinderace ban. The metagame has changed so much that its hard to believe we can have a meta like this. From my experience, the ladder battles are no longer about who can beat cinderace and the rest of the team. Its less Match up oriented but at the same time, Match up matters. But lets get down to Viability Rankings with my favorite Pokemon, Charizard. Just his mega evolutions though.

Mega Charizard Y is good! This boy is good! With drought as its ability, base 159 special attack, base 100 speed, and a nice movepool that benefits from Drought. This Mon can come in, bring in the sun and light teams up! Weather Ball is the Fusion Flare for this mon and this move can be used in other weather conditions to provide a new move and a new means of taking out Foes. But if using this move, you are walled by Kommo-o. Flamethrower is the bread and butter that kills mons and beats down teams while having a 10% chance to burn still and it hits hard while having good consistent stab outside of sun. Fire Blast is Nuke, no questions.. Zard Y has great fire stab Roost is a must have and it heals this mon, unless you plan to do a four attack Zard Y, but I don't recommend it. Solar Beam is a must have, and Focus Blast Deals with Tyranitar, Mega T-Tar and Hydriegon. Scorching Sands makes Heatran a near nonexistent problem and toxapex now has a new problem along with Zard Y being able to burn switch ins! However, it isn't without his weaknesses. Zard Y has a new problem thanks to gen 8's movepool buff and its that Zard Y has a four move problem. Focus Blast and Scorching Sands are must have moves for this mon. Along with Solar Beam and stab moves. So you either are using Focus Blast or Scorching Sand based off of which Match up you are more likely to lose to. T-tar/ Mega T-Tar or Heatran and other mons defensive mons like Toxapex. Zard Y does have friends to take care of his problems. I would like to mention CB T-tar and CB Weavile. These two will take down the major problems Zard Y faces along with adding an additional dimension on fighting other teams since CB T-tar will kill mega mawile with EQ once it sets ups when things get bad along with being a major mon that can tear apart stall nearly on its own with Zard Y. CB Weavile will kill dragons, knock off items, kill the lati twins and pursuit trap other mons too. Zard Y needs a lot of support to work though. Defoggers like corviknight and Zapdos do a great job at that. Corviknight can get momentum with U-turn and wall mons. Zapdos can do the same as well but volt switch isn't recommended unless you can pull it off. Zapdos also acts as a defensive mon against mega loppuny and mega medicham and potentially can paralyze them with static. Excadrill works well when paired up with T-tar too and this mon gives Zard Y some rapid spin support and speed control under sand. Teleport mons like Clefable, Slowbro and Slowking can at as defensive piviots and bring in zard Y with the greatest of ease! I also just remembered that Heatran does benefit form Zard Y thanks to Drought and trapping mons like Blissy and Toxapex for good. Because of the lack of Cinderace, Zard Y can do a lot more better in this meta. Also, if you want rocks, Kommo-o can be used for this while being an ash gren check. and to my surprise, garchomp since it can lure in mons like corviknight and other defoggers or rapid spin mons to set up in their faces or just hit them while being a needed ground type with stealth rocks. Also, i'll mention defog kartana, this boy really does a great job for Zard Y. Zeraora make good partners for Zard Y too, deals with the waters and flyings along with being speed control and a means of killing T-tar too.

The biggest issue I take with this, and the reason why Charizard y should not rise is because nothing in the meta has changed to benefit it, in fact it loses a gigantic offensive target, as well as Toxapex now having the freedom to run specially defensive.

Overall, Zard Y has really improved over the changes to the meta.

You don't actually list what's changed in the meta to benefit Charizard-Y.

B+ to A-
it is a huge offensive threat that has good special bulk and sun weakening the water moves is also great living un evolved gren pump is also great and also setting up the sun for it's teammates like scarf/band vic solar blade kart and eruption heatran are the best of the bunch

A is little out of it's reach because of rocks but A- is really good spot for it

Once again, this doesn't list anything that's changed in the meta to warrant a rise, as well as both of the partners you listed being unviable, this isn't good enough reasoning to warrant a rise


Now i will give some of my own thoughts on the subject.

Charizard does not deserve a rise, all it does currently is rely on bulky offense matchups with no Toxapex or Kommo-o, which are extremely rare considering the state of the meta, building with Charizard Y is extremely restricting due to needing 2 defoggers, as well as pursuit support; this is the big reason Charizard is not seeing much tournament usage. While Charizard does destroy matchups where its counters are not present, that's about all it does, making the lizard just a big matchup fish

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

I'm going to make this post as a response to all the Zard-Y talk recently, as I believe they have some flawed logic



Now you do present a fair point here by saying blissey usage has fallen, but blissey is just a drop in the pool when it comes to zardy counters, and when your counters are some of the most common pokemon in the meta you're gonna have a hard time making any form of progress, latias, toxapex, ands tyrantitar. Now you can argue that these can be managed through partners but that's not what the viability rankings are about at all, it's about how well the mon itself matches up against the current meta, and currently charizard does not do that very well at all, especially not well enough for such a massive shift, putting it on the same rank as meta staples such as weavile, mega medicham, and the tyranitar formes.




This paragraph is strange to me, and is an issue with both posts to me, it doesn't actually say what's changed to make them deserve a rise.



Toxapex now runs specially defensive, and doesn't care even if it gets burn't with rocks up

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Toxapex: 102-122 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage



The biggest issue I take with this, and the reason why Charizard y should not rise is because nothing in the meta has changed to benefit it, in fact it loses a gigantic offensive target, as well as Toxapex now having the freedom to run specially defensive.



You don't actually list what's changed in the meta to benefit Charizard-Y.



Once again, this doesn't list anything that's changed in the meta to warrant a rise, as well as both of the partners you listed being unviable, this isn't good enough reasoning to warrant a rise


Now i will give some of my own thoughts on the subject.

Charizard does not deserve a rise, all it does currently is rely on bulky offense matchups with no Toxapex or Kommo-o, which are extremely rare considering the state of the meta, building with Charizard Y is extremely restricting due to needing 2 defoggers, as well as pursuit support; this is the big reason Charizard is not seeing much tournament usage. While Charizard does destroy matchups where its counters are not present, that's about all it does, making the lizard just a big matchup fish

First, I forgot to mention how mega charizard y has actually benefited from the leave of cinderace, who casually out-sped and destroyed it with +1 double edges easily in the past.

With cinderace now gone and toxapex dumping the evs back into special defence, scorching sands has become a lot less useful outside from hitting heatran and many have opted to carry the old focus blast instead.

Now tyranitar is not a safe switch in to a mega charizard y shall the move connect.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 348-412 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Second, I have to disagree here about your comment on: “Now you can argue that these can be managed through partners but that's not what the viability rankings are about at all, it's about how well the mon itself matches up against the current meta” .

Ok hold on, I completely understand where you are coming from.
However, the ranking we are doing here is based on viability instead of power level. My point here is that while how a Pokémon fairs 1v1 against the top tier mons is surely a major factor in considering how good it is, viability rankings should also take the trends of its common partners into account.

While the obvious argument for my controversial comment here is that partners have nothing to do with how the Pokémon in interest directly improves or deteriorates, the effect of how partners can influence the viability of the mon in interest is profound in practice.

I remember bringing this up before in my old post about rillaboom when it was still in B+, both of these mons are similar in their immediate power, and that they have hard counters but are hard to switch into otherwise.

Considering that they are always brought with support, placing them directly 1v1 against mons that counter them and say they cannot do anything against them is an unfair statement.

Because of this, the roles and trends of their teammates are crucial to whether these mons can succeed in the metagame.

Ok for example, let’s say heatran and weavile are rising due to the leave of cinderace and to take advantage of how players tended to slap blissey onto any team a few months ago.

Coincidentally, both of these Pokémon are good partners for mega charizard y, heatran traps toxapex and blissey while weavile pursuits fleeing mega latias and garchomp. (Good players can use the tendency of mega charizard y and heatran to force switches and make aggressive double switches and guide the opponent into a position for forced pursuit traps)

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 193-228 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (on a switching garchomp)

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 164-193 (45.9 - 54%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

Therefore, with a single pursuit trap, garchomp is no longer able to switch into a weather ball in a pinch. This forces the opponent to potentially sack another mon in the face of that 159 special attack.

Indeed, once the issue of switching into mega charizard y and its teammates is over, it becomes much easier to manage for the time being, as numerous Pokémon such as tapu koko and scarf landorus T can revenge kill it or force a switch to regain momentum for the opponent. Also, I do admit charizard y relies on both successful pursuit trapping and hazard removal to function in high leveled, often prolonged games.

Nevertheless, the strength of mega charizard y mostly comes from the difficulty in safely switching into it, with many neutral mons either getting severely crippled or outright OHKOed by a single weather ball, which has been much more significant with the leave of cinderace who took its hits and forced it out, as well as the increasing usage of its most common partners which further narrow the range of mons that can come in and take a hit.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Sun: 313-369 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (has to die or run away after switching into u turn/volt switch from your other mons)

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

I seriously cannot see a mon as powerful as this posing the same level of threat to the meta game as reuniclus and mega slowbro (a mon I have used but dropped since the ban of cinderace), which are currently rated B+ along with mega charizard y. So while my previous post of stating mega charizard y to be A was too extreme for some, I believe my reasons above makes it well deserve an A-, at the same level as aegislash, rillaboom and victini. Compared to the cinderace meta, charizard y has definitely become easier to use now.

The combination of toxapex and mega latias is indeed among the most difficult matchups that mega charizard y will have, but that is just one particular matchup and I must say many other top mons need support to deal with that combination to begin with, including higher rated mons like kartana and mega scizor, even though they can actually do stuff in early stages, unlike mega charizard y.

But on the other hand, mega charizard y is definitely capable of straight up destroying the remaining mons once these two counters are removed. In this matchup, the aforementioned rising mons in weavile and heatran can help early game, especially with occasional bold plays such as:

1. Banded weavile pursuit traps mega latias, 2. pex comes in, 3. opponent knows weavile fears a scald and predicts you will switch out so he/she doubles back to latias to attempt to roost or bait the next weavile switch in while you read this option from the opponent and press pursuit a second time. 4. Pursuit a third time to destroy latias 5. Trap toxapex with heatran later in the game. 6. Pretty much win with mega charizard y

Remarks: This strat might not work again after posting this LOL. And please, don’t dare do this on ladder, it wouldn’t work there.

 

[might dragon 1.2]

Let's not pretend Solar Blade Kartana and Eruption Heatran are good. By no means can Mega Charizard Y switch into Greninja, even without Rocks up.

does not include vic yes the other ones might be unviable but atleast mention vic bro, i meant by it beating gren i meant to say on a 1v1 not switching in

 

[might dragon 1.2]

I'm going to make this post as a response to all the Zard-Y talk recently, as I believe they have some flawed logic



Now you do present a fair point here by saying blissey usage has fallen, but blissey is just a drop in the pool when it comes to zardy counters, and when your counters are some of the most common pokemon in the meta you're gonna have a hard time making any form of progress, latias, toxapex, ands tyrantitar. Now you can argue that these can be managed through partners but that's not what the viability rankings are about at all, it's about how well the mon itself matches up against the current meta, and currently charizard does not do that very well at all, especially not well enough for such a massive shift, putting it on the same rank as meta staples such as weavile, mega medicham, and the tyranitar formes.




This paragraph is strange to me, and is an issue with both posts to me, it doesn't actually say what's changed to make them deserve a rise.



Toxapex now runs specially defensive, and doesn't care even if it gets burn't with rocks up

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Toxapex: 102-122 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Black Sludge recovery, and burn damage



The biggest issue I take with this, and the reason why Charizard y should not rise is because nothing in the meta has changed to benefit it, in fact it loses a gigantic offensive target, as well as Toxapex now having the freedom to run specially defensive.



You don't actually list what's changed in the meta to benefit Charizard-Y.



Once again, this doesn't list anything that's changed in the meta to warrant a rise, as well as both of the partners you listed being unviable, this isn't good enough reasoning to warrant a rise


Now i will give some of my own thoughts on the subject.

Charizard does not deserve a rise, all it does currently is rely on bulky offense matchups with no Toxapex or Kommo-o, which are extremely rare considering the state of the meta, building with Charizard Y is extremely restricting due to needing 2 defoggers, as well as pursuit support; this is the big reason Charizard is not seeing much tournament usage. While Charizard does destroy matchups where its counters are not present, that's about all it does, making the lizard just a big matchup fish

yo why all the haters hating on my boy zard y

your reason it needs to much team support the why not just run 1 mon if that is case pokemon is games around a team of 6 mons, why builds team around one mon if you follow the reason optify stated why not just put 5 other random ou mons on that team, if I follow your reasons wouldn't that mean m swampert is unviable becuase it need pelipers rain same with anyother mon which uses weather to win. also you said it is to much of a matchup mon looking at it every mon is lando gonna do anything if all six of the opposing mons f ing wall it.

that is all i have to say disagree all you want

B+ to A- (or higher) all the way

 

[KirbCena]

First, I forgot to mention how mega charizard y has actually benefited from the leave of cinderace, who casually out-sped and destroyed it with +1 double edges easily in the past.

With cinderace now gone and toxapex dumping the evs back into special defence, scorching sands has become a lot less useful outside from hitting heatran and many have opted to carry the old focus blast instead.

Now tyranitar is not a safe switch in to a mega charizard y shall the move connect.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 348-412 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO


Second, I have to disagree here about your comment on: “Now you can argue that these can be managed through partners but that's not what the viability rankings are about at all, it's about how well the mon itself matches up against the current meta” .

Ok hold on, I completely understand where you are coming from.
However, the ranking we are doing here is based on viability instead of power level. My point here is that viability rankings should take the influence of partners into account to a certain degree.

While the obvious argument for my controversial comment here is that partners have nothing to do with how the Pokémon in interest directly improves or deteriorates, the effect of how partners can influence the viability of the mon in interest is profound in a real life battle setting.

Ok for example, let’s say heatran and weavile are rising due to the leave of cinderace. Coincidentally, both of these Pokémon are good partners for mega charizard y, heatran traps toxapex and blissey while weavile pursuits fleeing mega latias and garchomp. (Good players can use the tendency of mega charizard y and heatran to force switches and make aggressive double switches and guide the opponent into a position for forced pursuit traps)

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 193-228 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (on a switching garchomp)

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 164-193 (45.9 - 54%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

Therefore, with a single pursuit trap, garchomp is no longer able to switch into a weather ball in a pinch. This forces the opponent to potentially sack another mon in the face of that 159 special attack.

Indeed, once the issue of switching into mega charizard y and its teammates is over, it becomes much easier to manage for the time being, as numerous Pokémon such as tapu koko and scarf landorus T can revenge kill it or force a switch to regain momentum for the opponent. Also, I do admit charizard y relies on both successful pursuit trapping and hazard removal to function in high leveled, often prolonged games.

Nevertheless, the strength of mega charizard y mostly comes in the difficultly in safely switching into it, with many neutral mons either getting severely crippled or outright OHKOed by a single weather ball, which has been much more significant with the leave of cinderace who took its hits and forced it out as well as the increasing usage of its most common partners which further narrow the range of mons that can take a hit.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Sun: 313-369 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (has to die or run away after switching into u turn/volt switch from your other mons)


252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor in Sun: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

I seriously cannot see a mon as powerful like this posing the same level of threat to the meta game as reuniclus and mega slowbro (a mon I have used but dropped after the ban of cinderace), which are rated B+ along with mega charizard y. So while my previous post of stating mega charizard y to be A might be too crazy for some, I believe my reasons above makes it deserve at least an A-, at the same level as aegislash, rillaboom and victini. Charizard y has definitely become easier to use than it was before.

The combination of toxapex and mega latias is indeed among the most difficult matchups that mega charizard y will have, but that is just one particular matchup and I must say many other top mons need support to deal with that combination to begin with, including higher rated mons like kartana and mega scizor, even though they can actually do stuff in early stages, unlike mega charizard y. In this matchup, the aforementioned rising mons in weavile and heatran can help, especially with occasional bold plays such as:

1. Banded weavile pursuit traps mega latias, 2. pex comes in, 3. opponent knows weavile fears a scald and predicts you will switch out so he/she doubles back to latias to attempt to roost or bait the next weavile switch in while you read this option from the opponent and press pursuit a second time. 4. Pursuit a third time to destroy latias 5. Trap toxapex with heatran later in the game. 6. Pretty much win with mega charizard y

Remarks: This strat might not work again after posting this LOL. And please, don’t dare do this on ladder, it wouldn’t work there.

There are some flaws in your counter-argument and I figure I should try to address them. First off, Scorching Sands is not a lot less useful with Pex reverting to its old SpD set, it's still Zard-Y's best option for its third attacking move for the most part. Sure, you don't beat Tyranitar in one hit, but it isn't going to want to switchin in the first place due to the burn risk and still decent damage output, and it has the huge advantage of actually still hurting SpD Toxapex (it's the only move that does over a third to Pex and has a chance to burn it to pressure it) and of course reliably and instantly murdering Tran.

Second of all, the viability rankings already do take partners into account to an extent, and really shouldn't consider them any more than that since it goes more into how well a mon benefits from support rather than its own merits, which isn't a good thing for measuring viability nor is it the point of measuring viability. The whole point of C rank is that mons in that rank either have a huge amount of flaws that keep them from being more splashable or that they require a lot of team support, and these two factors are applied for the higher ranks too (meaning that higher rank mons are less flawed and don't need nearly as much support). Zard-Y has some pretty big flaws, namely a less-than-stellar speed stat, crippling SR weakness while unable to run HDB, and is unable to beat many of the bulkier teams that a slower wallbreaker should be able to handle as they often have mons like Toxapex, the pink blobs (Chansey on stall/semi stall, Blissey on BO/Balance), and Mega Latias. Its saving grace is that splashable teammates like Zeraora, bulky Kartana, and your example of CB Weavile exist, but it struggles to do anything without these teammates applying constant pressure. It is because of the aforementioned flaws that Zard-Y has along with its overreliance on its teammates to do anything significant that it isn't higher on the VR. I would actually argue that Zard-Y has gotten worse with the recent bans of Cinderace (Don't know why you brought up Zard-Y dying to +1 Double Edges seeing as it wasn't checking Ace in the first place and serves a different role too) and Magearna, and this is because it's quite easier for teams to slap on pivots like SpD Pex and SpD Kommo-o (and before someone inevitably tries to say this, Air Slash is NOT VIABLE on Zard-Y), as well as already decent answers like Mega Latias and Garchomp being less pressured and therefore easier to use.

Lastly, this is more nitpicky admittedly, but your scenario of CB Weavile vs. LatiPex isn't at all ideal imho. First off, the opponent isn't just going to switch their Pex out to heal Latias all willy nilly, especially when Pex checks Weavile well. They'd more likely make the better move of staying in order to make a play like Knock Off/Scald/Toxic Spikes/etc in order to put pressure on you and wait for a better time to heal Latias. Your scenario also doesn't take into account how Latias can often stay in on Weavile if Pursuit is predicted and remove it with Aura Sphere (it survives Weav's other attacks from full anyways bar 3-hit Triple Axel, though it's worth noting that you should really be almost always clicking Knock against LatiPex to get anything done), thereby removing the Zard-Y user's ability to threaten Lati. Even if they try to trap Pex with Heatran, LatiPex is often paired with teammates like Gliscor, Garchomp, and Gastrodon that can easily keep it from getting much accomplished aside from setting Stealth Rock.

 

[Thunderboxer]

Heatran to S-

Defeating almost the entirety of the other A+ members, I do believe Heatran deserves a rise in ranking and viability. Its ability to beat pex, wall special attackers and hit HARD makes it a threat to reckon with. Its extremely viable taunt/stealth rocks set gives the player the ability to role compress, thus expanding team potential.

Nice typing (minus the quad weakness to ground) gives it a defensive edge, immunity to both toxic and burn, and its natural bulk allows it to take hits from super effective water type attacks as well as survive scorching sands from Charizard-y ensuring rocks. Not to mention its ability to destroy stall.

 

[KirbCena]

Heatran to S-

Defeating almost the entirety of the other A+ members, I do believe Heatran deserves a rise in ranking and viability. Its ability to beat pex, wall special attackers and hit HARD makes it a threat to reckon with. Its extremely viable taunt/stealth rocks set gives the player the ability to role compress, thus expanding team potential.

Nice typing (minus the quad weakness to ground) gives it a defensive edge, immunity to both toxic and burn, and its natural bulk allows it to take hits from super effective water type attacks as well as survive scorching sands from Charizard-y ensuring rocks. Not to mention its ability to destroy stall.

Alright, so I know I'm already replying criticism to another post, but given their returning popularity, I think it's important to say that these types of posts that only state the obvious (and unfortunately some misinformation in your case as only Defensive Heatran can survive Zard Y Scorching Sands and no one in their right mind would keep a Heatran in on Zard Y just to set rocks anyway) to try to nominate a rise for a mon aren't really helping people understand the meta, nor do they give your argument much support. Yeah, it hits hard and it's bulky, but that's always been the case for Heatran and I think anyone whose seen its stats already knows that so I don't see how that means it should automatically rise up to S-. Your post also fails to discuss any trends that benefit Heatran, which is one of the best ways to support your argument(if you aren't sure of trends you can always ask for help in the Discord if you aren't already in it; I highly recommend it) , as well as anything truly compelling that shows why Heatran should be higher than the other Pokemon in A+. A good example would have been the fact that grasses like Serperior and Tangrowth are increasingly popular means Heatran can force progress more easily and that Corviknight and Scarf Lando-T being the most splashable Defoggers means Tran also can keep rocks throughout a game against them(it obviously has to be wary of EQ from Lando, but Lando doesn't want to switchin anyways). However, the reason I and probably a few other experienced players think Heatran should stay at A+ is because bulky waters that can beat it like Slowking and Tapu Fini, as well as fellow SR setters Garchomp and SpD Kommo-o are also rather common and keep it from doing its
job as effectively. Hope this helps!

 

[Zobirisking]

Hey guys, I want to show you why I think that Mega Sableye deserves to rise up to A-

• Magearna was a very big problem for Mega Sableye and stall in general, but the Magearna ban makes stall and especialy Mega Sableye much stronger than it was before.
• Landorus, Garchomp and many other physical attackers being so common helps Sableye a lot, because it can burn them without any worrys and win against them.
• Mega Latias isn't as common as it was a few months ago, but it is still a super good Pokemon which is hard walled by Sableye, because it mostly runs Psychic and Fighting Coverage.
• The Calm Mind Set also handles many defensive Pokemon very well like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Slowking, which are all pretty common.

I nominated this thing very often, I hope that's ok. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

 

[AquaVanilla]

A+ --> A-
a lot of posts already talked abt blissey should drop and i agree, this mon is good but theres too much things that can handle blissey, most special attackers can pivot out of them and blissey just lets in a free physical attacker in. also a passive mf

My own nomination
Tapu Koko A- --> A/A+
i honestly think koko is one of the best mons in the tier rn, its pivot set, specs set and an amazing screen setter is amazing rn, specs koko destroys a lot of teams and most grounds cant switch in it bc of hp ice and once the ground is remove its free to do anything it wants by just clicking volt switch, excadrill is threatened by hp fire same with ferro, being a amazing pivot with the pivot set it gives u so much momentum for ur team and it's a good offense killer by dealing with ho/webs teams (if ur running boots). Amazing speed tier lets it beat weavile, protean gren, serp, kartana.

Only mons that koko is worried abt is gastrodon and excadrill (without hp fire), it can u-turn on gastrodon and generate momentum for something that deals with it, and that's what makes koko amazing rn, a lot of its checks are either pivoted on. Koko is also pretty splashable to add for offense teams since its great speed tier + ability to generate momentum is amazing for your offensive teams. Pivot set also lets you give u so much chip damage for ur cleaners to clean the game.

A team that i was using that got me to r3 in majors was this
https://pokepast.es/f7049d261bdbb581
Specs koko + u-turn lop is a amazing offense core imo, mega lop pivots out of corv, pex, zapdos (if ur limber) and koko deals with those lop checks, also koko can pivot out of excadrill, magnezone, blissey and mega lop can destroy the koko checks, providing nice volturn, now this team may be a balance but i really recommend adding these 2 to ur offense teams with spikes and they will destroy some nat dex teams.

I wish i had replays of me winning with specs koko since i do have a lot of victories with it, im stupid to save my replays so sorry :(

 

[Lupla]

View attachment 334581
Hey guys, I want to show you why I think that Mega Sableye deserves to rise up to A-

• Magearna was a very big problem for Mega Sableye and stall in general, but the Magearna ban makes stall and especialy Mega Sableye much stronger than it was before.
• Landorus, Garchomp and many other physical attackers being so common helps Sableye a lot, because it can burn them without any worrys and win against them.
• Mega Latias isn't as common as it was a few months ago, but it is still a super good Pokemon which is hard walled by Sableye, because it mostly runs Psychic and Fighting Coverage.
• The Calm Mind Set also handles many defensive Pokemon very well like Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Slowbro and Slowking, which are all pretty common.

I nominated this thing very often, I hope that's ok. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

While its nice that you want to share the thoughs but at this point its a bit too much. Last time you got responded in how CM M-Sab just doesnt work, while Magearna leaving certainly was a good thing for Sableye, his usual problems are still on like Toxapex, Heatran and CM Clefable, M-Latias is running IceShock sets more due to AuraShock is seen, Slowbro popularity has fallen off, Garchomp and Landorus need to be burned on the switch or on a 1v1 because they are going to 2HKO you at +2 (even if you burn them after tanking quakes), not to mention stuff like this


+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 382-451 (126 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 382-450 (126 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

They wouldnt even dare to switch in directly on Sableye anyway so getting the burn is gonna be difficult, also the raise of mons that it cant afford to handle at all such as Kartana, Ash Greninja, CM Tapu Fini, Mega Mawile or Tapu Lele which isnt gonna help much. Not that im an expert but as mentioned its niche is extricted to Stall and using it on other playstyles is sometimes a waste when you can have a better mega on teams.

 

[might dragon 1.2]

A+ to S-

m maw is a huge threat that was kinda held back my mag being in the tier but now that mag is banned it has no true counter because it can just get around them.

First of all there is no mon switching into m maw because a smart player can just predict that play and also by switching you are giving it a chance to get a free sd that can just end games. And it is not like it not able to live a hit because in a pinch it can live. with spikes up m maw can sd and kill heatran with sucker punch. tp destroys fini and pex. knock gets bro and blissey is not doing anything against this. this mon can single handly demolish stall.

after sd play rough does really good damage against ferro, and fire fang just ends it also including m sciz. iron head cleans the fairy like clef. the tapu just get ended rillaboom can not kill and glide does nothing so it has to use high horse power. now you might say what about lando it had intim and kills with eq thats where sd comes in big because with chip sucker punch ends that with just +1 and it can not switch into play rough then take the sucker punch after that. now look at A+ with this mons many moves it can none of those mons always win against this mons. weavile is walled, kyurem only get it with earth power, zone can be annoying but is never switching into knock and sd sucker is destructive, ttar does not switch in, without spe ttar just loses, victini, drill, aeig and achi are sucker punched, gastrodon can not stand up to it, gengar gone, zard y is not bulky psycially, manaphy=tp. just look through the vr and see there is way maw can get around that mon with either hazards teammates chiping and many more. And lastly this mon is really good in trick room as well no longer does it get outsped and killed but it is doing that. with my ex. this is the best mega in the tier right now.

A+ to S-

 

[Victini4ssbu]

A+ to S-

m maw is a huge threat that was kinda held back my mag being in the tier but now that mag is banned it has no true counter because it can just get around them.

First of all there is no mon switching into m maw because a smart player can just predict that play and also by switching you are giving it a chance to get a free sd that can just end games. And it is not like it not able to live a hit because in a pinch it can live. with spikes up m maw can sd and kill heatran with sucker punch. tp destroys fini and pex. knock gets bro and blissey is not doing anything against this. this mon can single handly demolish stall.

after sd play rough does really good damage against ferro, and fire fang just ends it also including m sciz. iron head cleans the fairy like clef. the tapu just get ended rillaboom can not kill and glide does nothing so it has to use high horse power. now you might say what about lando it had intim and kills with eq thats where sd comes in big because with chip sucker punch ends that with just +1 and it can not switch into play rough then take the sucker punch after that. now look at A+ with this mons many moves it can none of those mons always win against this mons. weavile is walled, kyurem only get it with earth power, zone can be annoying but is never switching into knock and sd sucker is destructive, ttar does not switch in, without spe ttar just loses, victini, drill, aeig and achi are sucker punched, gastrodon can not stand up to it, gengar gone, zard y is not bulky psycially, manaphy=tp. just look through the vr and see there is way maw can get around that mon with either hazards teammates chiping and many more. And lastly this mon is really good in trick room as well no longer does it get outsped and killed but it is doing that. with my ex. this is the best mega in the tier right now.


View attachment 334631

A+ to S-

I 100% agree with this nomination, mega mawile has no counters unlike cinderace who we at least had jellicent for but mega mawile has no "oh lemme just switch this in and always wall it" counter, it has such moveset diversity that it has no counters. If you want the learn more just look at my other post. I am 80% pro ban on this thing, this monster is the definition of broken in our current metagame.

Next I want to talk about something that not many people have been talking about recently and more people should.
That is Landorus-T, Lando has been losing its "super glue" status ever since that ace ban. I do not know why but I have seen SO few lando-t compared to pre ace ban lando-t, this could be due to me just sucking. The problem is that the main reason for lando being in S tier is because it was super glue/basically everywhere but it is now losing popularity.


S to S-

 

[adem]

I 100% agree with this nomination, mega mawile has no counters unlike cinderace who we at least had jellicent for but mega mawile has no "oh lemme just switch this in and always wall it" counter, it has such moveset diversity that it has no counters. If you want the learn more just look at my other post. I am 80% pro ban on this thing, this monster is the definition of broken in our current metagame.

Next I want to talk about something that not many people have been talking about recently and more people should.
That is Landorus-T, Lando has been losing its "super glue" status ever since that ace ban. I do not know why but I have seen SO few lando-t compared to pre ace ban lando-t, this could be due to me just sucking. The problem is that the main reason for lando being in S tier is because it was super glue/basically everywhere but it is now losing popularity.


S to S-

Kind of have to disagree with like, everything here.

Your point about ace having Jellicent as an ace counter is IMO wrong, as 1, Jelli is very hard to justify using in any team in ND, and even then, it loses to Dark Z.

The big difference between Ace and MMaw is MMaw’s low speed, and contrary to popular belief, its middling bulk. Its bulk, in practice, isnt the highest, living at most 1 hit from most mons, and find it hard to swap into stuff freely, for example:

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 87-102 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 66.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 91-108 (34.4 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Most mons that get intimidated beat Maw, or weakens it enough to where it isnt a problem anyways, barring the occasional Mega-Tyranitar and Rilla locked into glide or knock, because as shown here-

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 112-132 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Hammer is a no go.
And neither is Superpower on SD sets

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 225-265 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its amazing typing can only carry it so far, and unlike mag, its defensive capabilities are largely overstated.

mega mawile has no "oh lemme just switch this in and always wall it" counter, it has such moveset diversity that it has no counters.

Any good wallbreaker will have, on paper, no counters, as shown by and specs , but this does not mean they are broken, as they all have their flaws, as Hoopa is easily pursuit trapped, and Kyurem struggles getting in due to rocks pressure.

Mega Mawiles greatest flaw is its middling speed, and how if it wants to hit certain targets, it has to sacrifice a large amount of its bulk, as shown above. The calcs above are for MMaws creeping 177, which is 0 Skarm speed, tho as i have been told, some creep even to Mega Scizor speed, which decreases its bulk significantly. And MMaw does have counters, you may be suprised, which is why a MMaw cant 6-0 any team, the main one most teams have, and it doesnt require a mon slot, is aggresive play, mainly stuff like doubles and predictions. Mega Maw can struggle when played against aggresively, as it will have a hard time getting in and breaking, as it will immediately get forced back out. Furthermore, the rise in usage of mons such as Volcaronal Mega Char X, and Ash Gren putting a lot of pressure on MMaw makes it have a hard time coming in, compared to Pre Ace ban, when the meta was much more defensive, to cater to the bunny.

Against more defensive teams however, there is still a good amount of counter play to it, even on stalll which might suprise you, as MMaw is known for demolishing said playstyle. ID Press and are very common counterplay methods on stall for MMaw, and even nicher picks like Volcarona and Moltres, of course MMaw is extremely threatening to slower playstyles such as this, but they have their outs, and faster playstyles, as explained earlier, have theirs too.

I do think MMaw is an amazing mon right now, and has always been, but lacks the splashability of Lando T, and former S rank Magearna, and in my opinion, is not broken nor worthy of S-Rank, just a big threat to watch out for in the builder.

Next I want to talk about something that not many people have been talking about recently and more people should.
That is Landorus-T, Lando has been losing its "super glue" status ever since that ace ban. I do not know why but I have seen SO few lando-t compared to pre ace ban lando-t, this could be due to me just sucking. The problem is that the main reason for lando being in S tier is because it was super glue/basically everywhere but it is now losing popularity.

About this, Lando-T has definitely Not lost its super glue status, because even with ace around, it was still a subpar check to it, if you could even call it one. It still is an amazing glue mon, due to being able to check a lot of the rising threats, such as , , , and Sand as a whole. It is definitely not losing popularity, and I would even argue the latter.

Small edit to this, balanced playstyles also like having sub Z Zone right now, which blanks out maw, especially steelium luring grounds like glisc, and electrium as a general nuke.

 

[thegarbodr]

Hello with the mag ban I think there should be some changes.
> B+ Slowking is awesome now with its phys defence make it one of the best top bulky water type and heatren/tapu lele checks.


> B+ Amoonguss is probaly not as good before with the mag ban but I think its solid allowing it to check ash gren and far more better then Tangrowth.

 

[pannu]

wanna make some noms

a- -> a+/s

This has already been discussed alot so i wont go too deep with it but, greninja is amazing in the current metagame because of how popular offense is and how good gren is against it. every bulky team is forced to run like spdef pex or blissey or ferrothorn + clefable just to deal with it, and rillaboom is pretty much staple on HO just to revenge kill gren. super good against common offenses and balances.

and a- ->b+

these were basically only ran for kisspower mage, with mage being gone you can definetly run other scarfers on alot of teams, that being said these are still good scarfers.

b- -> b+/a-

Controversial take but i think that volc is pretty staple on HO as of now, as its some of the most important defensive utility on it. With Cinderace leaving and Magearna being gone seriously denting victinis viability, HO teams are pretty lacking for fire types, which i find nessecery as ive tested with and against alot of HO's lacking a good switchin to rillaboom or mega scizor, ive even seen some struggle to switch into mmaw, volc does all of this semi reliably and can use them as set up fodder, which can let it use its really good coverage and somewhat pick and choose what it loses to (i.e running hp ground > bug buzz so you beat heatran). i wont go too in depth on it but bulky qd sets are also solid. its definetly underrated and i dont understand how we didnt nom it higher before.

B -> B+

Spikes are really good on stall and more defensive teams as of now, and Skarm might be the best defensive spikes setter in the tier. With teams no longer having their dedicated steel type be specially defensive to check Magearna i do think that more physically defensive steels like skarmory have a solid place in the meta. It also has a lot of good defensive utility being able to 1v1 pokemon like mega mawile, garchomp, Mega Gyarados and Landorus-T. overall solid defensive mon rn.

while not offical noms since i do not have enough experience using them, i think that mega diance, serperior, slowking and shuckle should all rise a bit, they are extremely solid.

also yugon is right ur maero please it hasnt been good since pult left

 

[might dragon 1.3 (my 3rd)]

A to A+
This mon just spams. demolishes my guy lando. Knock is just an amazing move. Is not be perfect because of mons that wall it for example fini. But fini does not like losing it's leftovers. Those checks can be taken care of with hazards and team support. (i do not fully agree with this nomination but I just wanted to see what people thought about this so do you think it should rise or stay).

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A- to A/A+

This mon is a huge ass threat. Band is the main set that just comes in breaks walls or just cleans in the end. Grassy terrain weakening eq goes a long way for it's teammates. Check to gren. The fact rain has to run 2 checks to this mon should just tell you how much it destroys rain without those checks. Next is rain sd which can just end games there are 2 sets with sd, life sd or seed sd (which has acro). Sd has a way better time with rain superpower ends ferro and +2 knock does good damage to zapdos and it can not switch in (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 265-313 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). high horsepower for heatran. Lando is not a good check because it never switchs in. ya thats about it for this mon can do so much more (but you should know all of this)

A to A+
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A- to A/A+