Nature Swap [Talonflame unbanned!]

The suspect is supposed to end tomorrow but since there has been lack of votes so far, nv and I decided to extend the suspect for 2 days and hope that we'll get more votes. I know OMotM ladders tend to die out in around 2nd to 3rd week but I need at least 10 votes for each Blissey or Cloyster so that we know better what people in general think about this suspect. With this, the suspect will end at 17th of August instead of tomorrow.
 
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(can't seem to show the s in my name on the bottom left :V)


Ban Cloyster
I don't actually have many problems with cloyster on my team because I have both Empoleon and Alomamola on my team which do a decent job at shutting it down together. However, pretty much the only reason that I run Empoleon over some other defogger is because it is the only thing that really shuts down Cloyster on stall teams.

No one has mentioned the fact that neither of the two common unaware pokemon can avoid the 2HKO from unboosted cloyster. I think that on top of pretty much everything already said by the pro ban people shows it is too strong for the meta.

Ban Blissey
I wish I could abstain from this but I can't. I'm very torn on Blissey. While not being as obviously toxic as Chansey, I think it just walls too many things. Not many offensive pokemon can take it down and a lot of them are cheesy sets with little use beyond killing blissey (physical keldeo and special machamp just feel so cheesy to me). However, offensive pokemon that can take her down which aren't cheesy (specs kyurem-B, mega heracross, etc) there are also quite a few defensive pokemon and stall breakers that blissey can't do anything about (ghost types, anything with reliable recovery, clerics, taunt, etc).

Ultimately I decided to go with ban because If I wanted to vote for cloyster ban I had to vote for something for blissey and I think she might be just a little too strong.
 


Grains of Salt talked about what Cloyster hits hard predominantly and what can beat Blissey and how. I also noticed that some of his calcs are incorrect, so I'm not sure how he calced things. I'll try and fill in the other side of the issues for both Pokemon in this post as well as address what makes them tick.

After laddering for a couple days, what I've seen is not that any Pokemon is necessarily overpowered or needs a ban (granted some are much better than others, but that's too be expected), it's that not that many people neither know how to teambuild nor how to prepare for the biggest threats of Nature Power. There are many good, strong counters to both Blissey and Cloyster that don't receive as much credit as they deserve (Mega Hera, Machamp, Infernape) and the fact that people aren't utilizing these Pokemon that also happen to thrive in this meta is completely on them. With that in mind, let's address Cloyster and what can 1) outspeed and kill it and 2) what can tank hits and check it.

Outspeed/Kill Cloyster:
+1 200 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 644-762 (90.1 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
200 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 370-440 (153.5 - 182.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
164 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 351-416 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
92 SpA Life Orb Infernape Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 242-283 (100.4 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 291-346 (120.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 510-602 (211.6 - 249.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 246-289 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 428-506 (177.5 - 209.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 186-220 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 165-195 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Take hits from/Revenge/Check Cloyster:
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 195-235 (37.2 - 44.8%) -- approx. 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Mega Slowbro: 150-180 (38 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%) -- approx. 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 170-200 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 105-120 (32.9 - 37.6%) -- approx. 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 145-175 (42.1 - 50.8%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO (Atk and Def Switched)
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 195-235 (42 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 195-235 (64.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 255-305 (80.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 123-145 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 255-305 (87 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

Realistically, your team doesn't even need a Check to Cloyster, as long as you have a Pokemon that can outspeed and kill it (anything faster than Adamant base 70s). And bare in mind, the important fact that Shell Smash isn't the most viable set for Cloyster (not sure about usage, but Band is simply better), so you will most likely be able to outspeed it. And, if Shell Smash does become/is an issue, we could always just suspect Shell Smash (though I really don't see that happening). Not only that, but the choiced sets are counter-able by just about any priority check and by following what they've locked themselves into.

Moving on, I've noticed that this point hasn't been made yet from what I see, but in case you forgot Cloyster is weak to Rocks and lead rockers are extremely common in this tier (Shuckle, Ferrothorn, etc.). So unless you give your opponent a free defog/spin or sack your rocker, you will already have a counter measure in place. Cloyster also doesn't have a diverse moveset (Explosion, Spear, Blast, Shard), it can really only swap out a move or two from the generic set, so it isn't like you're going to face something you can't be ready for. And don't blame me if you face that one guy that runs a special lure Cloyster with Specs Surf or Ice Beam. Sure, Cloyster is a huge threat in this tier (what wouldn't be with access to a 180 attack stat), but it most certainly is beatable and not by any means broken. NO BAN for Cloyster.

I will add my thoughts on Chansey later when I have time to continue...
I just dont understand how you can say that some of these mons can "check" Cloyster. Most of your checks can only take one hit from Cloyster, meaning that I must sack something beforehand and hope my opponent doesnt switch when i bring said max Vaporeon or Mega Aggron. Checks can switch in maybe once, especially with rocks up, before they get worn down, meaning one must play basically 5 v 6 before the battle even starts, or running multiple checks, leaving yourself vulnerable to other SPA mons such and Volcanion. Secondly, most of your checks cant do anything back to Cloyster and will get 2 or 3 hit KO'd, without my opponent risking much. And if I leave my check in to try to KO the opposing Cloyster, what is stopping your opponent from Pursuit trapping you and again, rendering your check useless. And thats on top of trying to guess if they are running Sash Shell Smash or the Bander set.

And the checks that out speed? Lol, why would anyone in their right mind leave something as hard hitting and destructive as Cloyster in on a Heracross or Infernape? Thats a joke.

On the topic of lead Rockers, just remember that Scarf Excadrill with Spin is popular in OU, something that, 99% of the time, is impossible to stop on a free switch in.
 

dragonite drake

i go by zanglooser on ps
The vaibility rankings is nice but i would like to nominate for zardy to a rank.

this thing has power movepool and setup moves. azumarill is s rank purely due to power?

252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Sun: 325-384 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 268-316 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
yes it outdamages azumarill, not to mention fire is also a better typing offensively and it has sd/dd and roos/willowilps.

as of a sweeper it can run dd and 299 at +1 is a good enough speed tier most of the time. after a dd it just sweepes through offense teams:
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B in Sun: 562-663 (143.7 - 169.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt in Sun: 281-331 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO(garunteed on reg since this stuff usually run max spe for offense teams for dd)
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Sun: 339-399 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

and the rest of the offense stuff will quite easily and obviously be ohkod.
sd set could be run to break stall, but it gets worn out way too easily to be able to consistently beat stall. its still a great option tho.
solarbeam is an option to break the annoyance that is quagsire, but willowilps is generally better for this role, it can also help it break sala if running sd(one of its main walls and perhaps only?)

the main problem with zard x that it is a bit hard to setup due to bulk, but its typing while giving it a nast 4x rocks weakness also gives it key resistance due to which it can often setup. also many scarfers/ naturally fast mons can outspeed it even after a dd and revnege kill it. aggron and kyub are just 2 examples of this. also it almost always needs defog /rspin support which is also bad mostly. not to mention that it is very easily worn out by flareblitz recoil.

but its ability to break through walls and break many offense teams after a dd makes it very good, and hence deserving of a or a+ imo.
 
I'd like to remind you guys that the suspect will end tomorrow. This time, I will NOT give any more extension because turns out that extending time to get more votes (and even asking for people to vote in ps) is useless. Any people that still intend to get reqs and vote (doubt if there is one), make it quick.
 

Knuckstrike

Hi I'm FIREEEE
I'd like to remind you guys that the suspect will end tomorrow. This time, I will NOT give any more extension because turns out that extending time to get more votes (and even asking for people to vote in ps) is useless. Any people that still intend to get reqs and vote (doubt if there is one), make it quick.
Seems like 7 votes, of which 4 ban cloyster and 3 ban blissey are around.
Next vote will decide whether or not cloyster gets banned
 
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77% GXE. Registered to vote :D

Blissey: Is this seriously a debgate? Look, if Chansey was banned because of insane bulk and overall difficulty to kill, there's no reason to keep Blissey. You can show all of your calcs that prove that Blissey takes less damage and is easier to kill than Chansey was. To that I say, you'd be right...

...until you remember that Blissey holds LEFTOVERS. Many Blissey, especially if they tend to pass Wishes, run Protect as a staple. If you factor in Leftovers and Protect, the results lead to the opposite conclusion that Blissey is as bulky, if not sometimes BULKIER, than Chansey. Don't believe me? Calc it and see for yourself how unbelievably close their bulk is due to Leftovers.

This is an easy logic problem with a simple solution. If Chansey was banned because of its absurd bulk regardless of valid reasons such as Ghosts, Knock Off, Taunt, etc, then why should Blissey remain safe when it commits the exact same sins? There isn't an argument left to defend this anymore; if Chansey was banned for the same problems that Blissey is currently causing, then Ban Blissey as well.

Cloyster: Admittedly, I'm kind of torn on this one. Cloyster has to sacrifice its prized bulk that allowed so many setups for the power buff everyone is complaining about. There are still some things that can tank it and kill it back and even some that can kill it before it sets up...

..but I'm going to vote to kick it out. Cloyster has fair ways to be beaten, but those ways are still few and far between. Outside of the scarce checks, it's just a classic example of being too powerful. 180 Base Atk STAB Ice Shard is an easy revenge kill and Icicle Spear + Rock Blast is enough coverage to beat out a high margin of the metagame without blinking. It can even run Special Attacks to mix up the opponent and kill off the physical walls that may try to tank the hits as well as Water attacks to throw off usual checks for it. This isn't even accounting Shell Smash, which transforms what I previously mentioned into a living hellhole unless you stop the setup or miraculously can revenge kill it.

I think it's the best for everyone to just get rid of this. It complicates teambuilding, forces coinflip situations, and is just an easy wincon for the tier. For the sake of the tier, I think it's best to just Ban Cloyster.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
I was just reminded I need to comment on Blissey, so I'll do that now. I'm going to make sort of bullet points for this one because it's much easier to lay out issues concerning it that way. Before doing so, let's understand what Blissey can do compared to Chansey. For one, Blissey, I have always thought, was better than Chansey in this tier, simply from the fact that 1 single Knock Off makes Blissey instantly more useful. It's naturally bulkier and with lefties can tank hits and preserve its HP nicely. Although I have not run into any issues with handling Blissey, I use it myself and it tanks just about anything and can completely halt your opponent's momentum. Although the bulky Blissey set is most common, Max Def or Max SpD are just as difficult for most teams to manage. It's moveset can cover for most threats to your team and on stall it's incredibly difficult to break. With that, Blissey has got to go. Ban for Blissey
 
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Osra

1v1 and I
is a Pre-Contributor
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Was gonna leave a sophisticated set of reasons as to why my votes are what they are, but goddamn am I tired of facing the same 15 pokemon in Nature Swap all the time.
BAN Cloyster
KEEP Blissey

(Edit)
Apparently we need reasoning for this so whatever.
Cloyster has no defensive checks/counters greater than running some incredibly niched type resistance or relying on SPECIFICALLY Spdef swapped to Def Blissey to hax it with paralysis.
Blissey on the other hand, without being able to sport eviolite like Chansey, is now more vulnerable on the special side, leading it to be taken down by the many strong specially offensive pokemon of the meta, and if not Lax, then it still ends up being relatively frail physically.
 
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I vote to ban cloyster and keep blissey, if voting is still possible.

Edit: My reasoning to keep blissey is that the meta needs good mixed walls. We want all playstyles to be viable, and the problem with stall is that you never quite know if an attacker is going to be physical or special. Without mixed walls, switching is going to be very risky.

As for banning Cloyster, the issue is that it is plainly too hard to check. I was using spdef -> def swapped chansey to wall it, but apart from that there simply isn't much that's both viable and able to take a hit from +2.
Cloyster also has the bulk to set up reliably even without focus sash, strikes past sturdy, and will outspeed most scarfers after +2. A very strong Ice Shard even makes it hard to check with priority, and anything that potentially would stand a chance also has around 41% chance to lose to a King's Rock set.

 
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Ban Cloyster and keep Blissey.
I don't see many Cloyster lately, even though is not hard to beat (max def naughty registeel kills it with 0evs brick break), I think is hard to deal for unprepared teams and it can kill almost everything.
Blissey is a bit less bulkier than Chansey, I like it but the standar set is easy to deal with taunt/sableye/gliscor and other wallbreakers.
 
I haven't had access to smogon lately, that's why it's overdue. And now I'll announce the result.

Blissey has 5 ban and 6 no ban (45.45% pro ban)
Cloyster has 9 ban and 2 no ban (81.81% pro ban)

With this, Cloyster has been...


Banned!
Tagging The Immortal for implemmentation and nv to add Cloyster to the OP and delete the sample teams with Cloyster in it (sorry but I have to).

After this, I'm planning to test Talonflame for an unban since I've had many people question me why Talonflame was banned without being suspected and I can't really give good answers for them. I won't unban it yet since I need to see a what a no-Cloyster meta looks like. Maybe 5 days later I'll test it.
 
I thought Talonflame was banmed because it OHKO'd anything less bulky than 100/100 uninvested bulk with a Choice Band. Brave Bird is a recoil move, but it doesn't need to KO every Pokemon, just revenge every possible sweeper.
 
I thought Talonflame was banmed because it OHKO'd anything less bulky than 100/100 uninvested bulk with a Choice Band. Brave Bird is a recoil move, but it doesn't need to KO every Pokemon, just revenge every possible sweeper.

That argument isn't enough since,
1. It's slower. Brave variants got outspeed by neutral base 80 Speed or Jolly base 70 speed. You know what it means? It's easy for offense to revenge bc now it got checked by nearly everything with base 70 Speed or above that resists Flying. Stuff like Bisharp or Honchkrow outspeed it and can Sucker Punch it. It means Offense can can handle it.
2. Stallmons got bulkier. Mons like Salamence or Blissey still doesn't get 2HKOd by Banded Brave Bird, meaning Stall actually can handle it.
3. I know people (including me) said it looks unhealthy for the meta, but we don't know that because we haven't even tested it yet. And judging by the arguments that people gave me, I think it needs a test.
 
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iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
The votes for Blissey were actually 5 Ban/4 No-Ban, two posts were after the deadline.

Almost got the blob out of here, maybe next year.
 
K it's been 4 days and I don't see any complaint so far, so nv and I decided to have another suspect.

Suspect 3: Talonflame

Tagging The Immortal to unban and nv to remove Talonflame from the list of banned mons in the OP. Since it's kinda late, we won't have the voting system anymore and instead we'll just have people's opinion on the meta regarding Talonflame. This is assuming you have played the Talonflame meta. Please don't comment if you want to complain about Talonflame but haven't played the Talonflame meta because we don't want a biased opinion here. The suspect will last around 5 days, depending on how much input we get.

Edit: Oh right, since this is a suspect for an unban, I forgot to actually announce that Talonflame is now temporarily unbanned.
 
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Squawkerz

Torchic is best mon
Now I just want to start by saying that I haven't played with Talonflame before it was banned, and my opinions are based on just looking at it's stats movepool and Matchups against certain Pokemon.

Set #1: Offensive Talonflame
Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
Stats: 78/126/71/74/69/81
This Talonflame set is powerful, but it is also lacking in a few things, Now becomes much slower, allowing for flying resists to outspeed and likley OHKO with a Rock or Electric type move. Key examples of this are Excadrill, Terrakion, and Rotom-Wash, all being run with natures that don't affect speed. It is also forced to weaken it's Speed or Attack due to it's nature. It's also hardwalled by Relaxed Blissey before a Swords Dance, and even then, it's a 2HKO
+2 252- Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 424-501 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now for a set based on another popular set but much better
Set #2: Bulk Up (Specially Defensive)
Talonflame
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Acrobatics
- Roost
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
Stats: 78/81/71/74/126/69
Talonflame is now a much better wall, already having resistances to many physical types such as Ground, Fighting, and Fire. Now with a better special defense stat, and bulk up to boost it's defenses, It can now take on Jolly and Modest Kyurem-Black, decently after one bulk up boost, and even better after a burn. Even with this, It is way too slow to burn any physical rock type without a chance of fainting, and Stealth rocks still remain a massive problem.

Even though Talonflame may be powerful, I think that it will be fine in a meta that already has powerhouses and walls.
 

drampa's grandpa

DRAMPA CONFIRMED
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
So idk if other people have posted about this as haven't really been keeping up with the thread but Darm-z is broken. Not broken as in really good but broken as in doesn't work.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/natureswap-422896603

Okay because this replay doesn't technically constitute proof of anything a few notes.

Darmanitan
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Belly Drum
- Taunt

Darm set is this. Base 30 speed in normal form.
Base 30 at level 100 with 31 IVs, 252+ EVs: 174.

It is literally impossible for Jirachi to not outspeed this without using like Macho Brace, which it evidently was not.
Base 100 at level 100 with 0 IVs, 0- EVs: 184.

Once I went Zen (I'm tempted to make an OM joke here. You know, other metas, ommmmmm), my speed should have been
Base 140 at level 100 with 31 IVs, 252+ EVs: 416.
AKA literally impossible for Jirachi to outspeed without a scarf. You'll haveto take the word of my opponent that their Jirachi was not scarfed.

[15:56:07] dramPAs☼grandPA: actually if that was secretly scarf then we have a problem
[15:56:13] Nerds of a Feather:it was not

I checked what my speed stat was and it was 229 anyway. Which
Base 55 at level 100 with 31 IVs, 252+ EVs: 229.

Is what standard Darm-Z hits at that speed investment. So basically Darmanitan's Zen forme is not swapping stats. If someone want's to get more positive, observable proof, be my guest.

TL;DR Darm-z ain't doing the swappy swappy with the stats once it changes forme. Fix ASAZ plz.

EDIT: urkerab I don't think it's particularly relevant unless we decide to let Aegislash drop for some reason. Nobody uses Darm-z, Castform works actually (because you know base 70 stats across the board), nobody uses Cherrim, nobody uses Meloetta-p because its a pain to get in match. I think Meloetta and Darmanitan are the most relevant, and they don't really improve that much from standard, if at all.

The most obvious solution (besides fixing the code, which I make sound easier than I'm sure it is) is simply to leave Aegislash where it is. Not that anyone was talking about unbanning it.
 
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It's been 5 days and I see no complaints about Talonflame so far, either from ps chat or from this thread. Maybe it's because the end of the month that people doesn't really care anymore, but I think there's a few people who still play this meta and they still didn't complain. So I concluded that Talonflame isn't deemed broken by the community. Because of that, I announce that Talonflame is now unbanned for the rest of the month. Tagging nv to edit the title and remove Talonflame from the OP.
 
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Double post, but since it's near the end of the month, I'll post my thoughts about Nature Swap so far.

I think Nature Swap is a pretty good meta overall, but I think there is one thing that makes me not satisfied. It's that some mons are doomed to have neutral Nature because they can't run the beneficial Nature without changing their stats. Two examples are Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham, which no one use because these two megas have to run neutral Nature. As a result, they are pretty much inferior from other megas (Mega Lopunny got outsped by positive natured 120 Speed mons, which is bad). Another examples are Gengar and Keldeo. Without positive nature, they got outspeed by positive base 100 Speed. This reduces the viability of many mons and I don't like it.

To remedy this, I'm thinking to change the mechanic the next time this meta is nom-able to be OMotM. I'm thinking that you don't have to swap natures if shiny. In other words, if you're shiny, your natures won't be swapped BUT you can still have the 10% buff/debuff. So you can run Jolly Mega Lopunny without worrying of getting outsped by base 120 mons. This will add viability to a lot of mons and I think it's a good thing.

This is just my thought so if you have other thoughts, feel free to share it.
 

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