Machamp can 2HKO what it needs to, and has a priority move to finish off certain focus sash leads, which can try to explode in his face. Machamp also has amazing bulk with 90 / 80 / 85, whereas Medicham has a mediocre 60 / 75 / 75. The extra attack power is not needed for this role, and Machamp can also abuse Encore.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
Machamp can 2HKO what it needs to, and has a priority move to finish off certain focus sash leads, which can try to explode in his face. Machamp also has amazing bulk with 90 / 80 / 85, whereas Medicham has a mediocre 60 / 75 / 75. The extra attack power is not needed for this role, and Machamp can also abuse Encore.
Machamp struggles against the bulkiest leads, particularly, Hippowdon, Metagross, Swampert, Forrtress, and to extent Celebi and Jirachi. Medicham can muscle its way though most of those leads, and come out alive. Machamp proabably has the most problems with Hippowdon, since it can easily take a hit, and set up SR, and then slack off, and roar away unless, it gets haxed out. Bulk does help, and with 252 HP evs, it surivives what ever it needs to(one hit though).
@STEELDRAGON, Machamp has something no other pokemon can boast, a move which actually makes few think he is worthy of being an uber, that is his move Dynamic Punch. It is literally the main reason for his actual usage, 150 Base Power and 100% confusion is incredibly scary, and hurts anything that isn't immune to it, and those things bar Spiritomb and stuff take SE from PayBack, its all the coverage he needs.
Your argument with Swampert is completely incorrect, Dynamic Punch from 252 Atk Machamp deals more damage to Swampert than Zen Headbutt from Medicham
Dynamic Punch 252 Atk +Atk Machamp vs 252 HP / 252 Def +Def Swampert
Its only slightly less, but the confusion makes Machamp the superior option. Against all the other pokemon you mentioned, Machamp would still deal more damage, and confusion once more makes Machamp the far superior option..as far as offense is concerned, but Machamp is still far more bulky as well >.>
Your argument with Swampert is completely incorrect, Dynamic Punch from 252 Atk Machamp deals more damage to Swampert than Zen Headbutt from Medicham
Dynamic Punch 252 Atk +Atk Machamp vs 252 HP / 252 Def +Def Swampert
Zen Headbutt 252 Atk + Atk Medicham vs 252 HP / 252 Def +DefSwampert
Its only slightly less, but the confusion makes Machamp the superior option. Against all the other pokemon you mentioned, Machamp would still deal more damage, and confusion once more makes Machamp the far superior option..as far as offense is concerned, but Machamp is still far more bulky as well >.>
hmmm......Okay, good argument. What I am saying Medicham can be more viable as a lead, frankly because they are more options. It has access, to Trick, and even grass not(which, with LO would 2ko swampert and no sp atk. evs, being a nuetral nature). With the power argument, Medicham has access to High jump Kick, which interms of base power is 150, same as dynamicpunch and with LO is a likely 2ko. It also has access to magic coat, so it can easily beat the sleep leads without a lum berry. Dynamic Punch is quite a threat, and confusion 100% of the time, however, Medicham doesn't need confusion to do its job. I think Medicham is viable in the OU metigame, and it can function well as a lead. Machamp may have its niche as a good anitlead, and confusion inducer. Medicham can also function as a good lead, but with out the confusion. I have tested it many times, and it around 80+% it beats my opponent's lead. Also, what damage calculator did you use for those calcs?
Huh? More viable, in what sense? Hi Jump Kick has terrible accuracy, and how does it make it more viable than Machamp? Life Orb makes it a terrible lead, I cannot think of any lead that would do well as a LO Lead, there is NO good Life Orb lead, I can tell you that right now. Also you are running Adamant nature, mentioning crap like Grass Knot is just stupid, and you are not even using Mirror Coat on the set >.>, why you are bringing it up is beyond me. Also why would Swampert use Surf/Ice Beam, it would us EQ because it is a more powerful STAB move, and physical moves are all used on Hippodowon, Metagross and so on, so Mirror Coat would be plain stupid.
Machamp lead just shits on Medicham lead in just about every single way. You are just saying Medicham is more viable based on literally nothing. Machamp is definitely more viable in its 'niche move' Dynamic Punch, which is an INCREDIBLE MOVE, not to mention much better natural bulk.
If medicham is more 'viable', explain this.
EDIT: I used this damage calculator, arguably the best one: http://libelldra.com/competitive/damage/
Um, you misread Mirror coat, for Magic coat. To note, Medicham doesn't have access to Mirror coat. I specifically said that Magic coat can help Medicham beat the sleep leads such as Roserade and smeargle. Medicham, may be #111 now, and Machamp # 16, thats the usage stats. That doesn't dictate their whether their good or not. Its their niche, their are NU pokemon that are viable in Ubers(to name a few, Araidos and Parasect, they fill exclusive niches) Medicham is viable because it has the 2nd highest attack stat(720 atk with Choice band), out of all pokemon in the game, highest in OU and below, only Deoxys-A has higher attack(504 vs.480). I was mentioning Grassnot, to show you that Medicham has more Options. Trick is one of the most distuishing things it has from Machamp, it can lock the opposing lead into SR. The most successful Lead moveset that I have tried out was:
Medicham @ Life Orb
Nature: Adamant | Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk/6 Spe
-High Jump Kick
-Bullet Punch
-Magic Coat
-Ice punch
This moveset beats out most leads common leads, but could be in trouble If jirachi flinchhaxes it. I am basing my reasoning that Medicham is a viable lead, by expirence, I have used this set, and had a lot of success with it. High Jump Kick has 90% accuracy, which is decent, but it is risky. heck, Medicham can even beat Ninjask leads occasionly, occasionly because Bullet punch 2koes.
Well, That argument is completely invalid. It seems to me like you have never used a pokemon with the move Magic Coat, it is a +4 priorty move, therefore it will move before any status inducer.
It helps it counter the Sleep leads, though. You could replace Magic coat with Zen Headbutt/Fire Punch/Rock Slide/Thunder Punch for coverage. There always the option of Fake out as well.
@Bad__Romance, then it would be even more inferior to Machamp, it deals less damage >.>
@STEELDRAGON, stop acting as though there are so many Sleep Leads, the only one you should even consider is Roserade, and using Magic Coat completely ruins your coverage. And stop saying you could replace it for this this and this, you can't keep changing your move choice, you either have it or you don't.
@STEELDRAGON, stop acting as though there are so many Sleep Leads, the only one you should even consider is Roserade, and using Magic Coat completely ruins your coverage. And stop saying you could replace it for this this and this, you can't keep changing your move choice, you either have it or you don't.
Im not saying is a good lead but why waste a moveslot just to beat roserade when you just can put him lum berry, dint matter really beacause even with life orb machamp outclass him
Well, I agree with you there they aren't many sleep leads, but why does Machamp specifically hold the lum berry then? it's specifically for the status-inducing leads. Magic Coat does just that, while blocking other things, such as Leech seed, Mean look, Attract, and moves that just lower stats(screech, swagger, yawn, etc). The most optimial move to replace magic coat with would be probably be Thunder Punch, and you would get at least neutral coverage on everthing except shedninja.
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Nature: Adamant | Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
-Spore
-Stun Spore
-Fling
-Focus Punch
Breloom is known for its ability to put Pokemon to sleep with its signature move Spore. Some players even try a dual status strategy including Stun Spore. But no one would ever expect you to fling that useless Toxic Orb and badly poison their Pokemon. I present you a pure gimmick - Tri Status Breloom. This set has the potential to cripple half of your opponent's team. Focus Punch is your strongest attack and you have a 50% chance to land it when your opponent is paralyzed and 100% chance to land it when you opponent is asleep and does not have Sleep Talk. Max Attack gives you 394 Attack and Focus Punch, which has a whopping 225 BP, will do a substantial amount of damage even if resisted. 44 HP EVs grant optimum recovey and 212 Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Defensive Suicune and Rotom-A and sleep them before they can hurt you. Fling is the crux of this set, allowing you to poison switch ins such as Skarmory and Gengar. However like other Breloom sets, this set is still beaten by Celebi because it has Natural Cure; so don't waste your Fling on it.
Medicham, still has great coverage.
Medicham(480atk+LO=624 atk) with Magic coat Vs. Top 20 OU leads.
1. Azelf-2ko(Ice punch+BP)
2. Aerodactly-2ko(Ice Punch+BP)
3. Swampert-2ko(High Jump kick x2)
4. Metagross-2ko(High Jump kick x2)
5. Machamp-OHKO/2ko(High Jump kick +BP)(Zen heabutt would Def. OHKO)
6. Jirachi-2ko(High Jump kick+BP)
7. Infernape-2ko(High Jump kick+BP)
8. Ninjask-2ko(BP x2)
9. Tyrannitar-OHKO(High Jump kick)
10. Heatran-OHKO(High Jump kick)
11. Roserade-2ko(MC+Ice punch+BP)
12. Hippowdon-2ko/3ko(High Jump kick x2)
13. Uxie-3?ko-(Ice Punch x3)
14. Smeargle-2ko(MC+BP+Ice punch)
15. Gliscor-OHKO(Ice punch)
16. Bronzong-2ko(High Jump kick x2)
17. Dragonite-OHKO(Ice Punch)
18. Celebi-2ko(Ice Punch)
19. Skarmory-2ko(High Jump kick x2)
20. Crobat-OHKO(Ice Punch)
As you can see, it as much attack as a Choice Band Rhyperior, but can switch moves. It can OHKO or 2ko, nearly any common lead.
It still doesn't do what an anti-lead is supposed to do. Most leads don't care whether or not they get killed as long as they get stealth rock down, which they do.
Against Medicham, foes can just switch out into an appropriate pokemon to take the Bullet Punch, and KO the defensively weak 80% Medicham. Whereas Machamp can kill the opposing lead, stay at 100% HP, and the opponent can't switch out. Simply because:
a) something is going to take a fair amount of Damage + Confusion
b) Ghost types are going to get nailed by the following Payback
Machamp > Medicham
Against Medicham, foes can just switch out into an appropriate pokemon to take the Bullet Punch, and KO the defensively weak 80% Medicham. Whereas Machamp can kill the opposing lead, stay at 100% HP, and the opponent can't switch out. Simply because:
a) something is going to take a fair amount of Damage + Confusion
b) Ghost types are going to get nailed by the following Payback
Machamp > Medicham
Actually Dragonite with Life Orb is a pretty good lead. If any lead forgoes attacking him on the first turn. They will fall on turn two, if they choose to stay in. Of the top 20 leads Dragonite only has trouble with 4 of them. Smeargle, Roserade, T-tar, and Machamp. Alternating Dragonite's moveset or item could allow you to beat any 3 of these 4 leads, but hurting your chances a little against others. Dragonite makes a pretty good Life Orb lead.
Ironically, considering the fact that most Machamp will just Ice Punch Dragonite to death, Dragonite could actually defeat Machamp if it were to use a Focus Sash.
I definitely agree with you about the Machamp vs Medicham argument though.
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Nature: Adamant | Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
-Spore
-Stun Spore
-Fling
-Focus Punch
Breloom is known for its ability to put Pokemon to sleep with its signature move Spore. Some players even try a dual status strategy including Stun Spore. But no one would ever expect you to fling that useless Toxic Orb and badly poison their Pokemon. I present you a pure gimmick - Tri Status Breloom. This set has the potential to cripple half of your opponent's team. Focus Punch is your strongest attack and you have a 50% chance to land it when your opponent is paralyzed and 100% chance to land it when you opponent is asleep and does not have Sleep Talk. Max Attack gives you 394 Attack and Focus Punch, which has a whopping 225 BP, will do a substantial amount of damage even if resisted. 44 HP EVs grant optimum recovey and 212 Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Defensive Suicune and Rotom-A and sleep them before they can hurt you. Fling is the crux of this set, allowing you to poison switch ins such as Skarmory and Gengar. However like other Breloom sets, this set is still beaten by Celebi because it has Natural Cure; so don't waste your Fling on it.
I like the idea, but Seed Bomb is definitely an option to consider in place of Focus Punch. The reliable attack may, in some cases, be better than the stronger Focus Punch.
The thing most people have been against a Machamp Lead, they have already come up a procedure to deal with it, it has a standard set that most people are using. With a lead Medicham they don't what to expect, Until I attack, they have no idea what set I am using or what Item I am using. Medicham has element of surprise, as you shown, it ranks #111, so many people aren't that prepared for it. I have played with this set over and over, and people honestly don't know I have bullet punch, I have used it at least 100+ times and no one has switched out their lead. also, most times Machamp won't come out unscathed.
How is Machamp/Dragonite an antilead then?
Any lead faster, will use SR, and proabably switch.
@STEELDRAGON, don't double post, it could net you an infraction :(, use the edit button.
As I said before, Machamp completely screws over the opponent, the opponent is way too scared to switch, nothing likes a 150 BP move with 100% confusion rate, and Ghosts or Psychics get crapped on by Payback, because Machamp has the bulk to take survive hits, Medicham does not, especially with Life Orb.
Unexpectedness can be good, but pure inferiority is not. Machamp as shown is a much better lead.
Dragonite is different, its an extremely powerful Pokemon, and has a powerful priority move which allows it to function late game as well. It also has a much better movepool and much more bulk. Lets just stick with comparing it to Machamp because the Medicham set you are proposing is just an inferior set to Machamp, if its inferior to it, don't bother >.>
As I said before, Machamp completely screws over the opponent, the opponent is way too scared to switch, nothing likes a 150 BP move with 100% confusion rate, and Ghosts or Psychics get crapped on by Payback, because Machamp has the bulk to take survive hits, Medicham does not, especially with Life Orb.
Unexpectedness can be good, but pure inferiority is not. Machamp as shown is a much better lead.
Dragonite is different, its an extremely powerful Pokemon, and has a powerful priority move which allows it to function late game as well. It also has a much better movepool and much more bulk. Lets just stick with comparing it to Machamp because the Medicham set you are proposing is just an inferior set to Machamp, if its inferior to it, don't bother >.>
i would just like to add up that not a lot of stuff can switch into dragonite draco meteor either, even steel types like magnezone take a good amount of damage, and still fear EQ/fire blast after that, anything else that is not steel will have to eat a fully powered draco meteor, nite extremespeed is stronger then medichan bullet punch and got better typing, he can take a hit too.
overall, medi is just a pathetic anti-lead and bad outside of NU and maybe UU.
overall, medi is just a pathetic anti-lead and bad outside of NU and maybe UU.