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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NFE, which stands for Not Fully Evolved, is a metagame with a straight-forward premise: only Pokemon who have an evolution allowed.
Rules:
Mechanic: Only Pokemon who can evolve are allowed.
Clauses: OU Clauses
Banlist:
The following Pokemon are banned in NFE: Chansey, Doublade, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Magneton, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Type: Null, Vigoroth,
The following abilities are banned in NFE: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Shadow Tag
The following moves are banned in NFE: Aurora Veil, Baton Pass
Strategy:
NFE is a very diverse metagame. Being a metagame with no fully evolved Pokemon, Eviolite is a godsend to the tier. Conversely, Knock Off is a staple move because of how centralizing and common Eviolite is. This, in conjunction with the low power creep present in the tier makes Bulky Offense the most consistent style of play in NFE, and puts bulky set-up sweepers such as Clefairy, Servine, and Sliggoo at the forefront of the metagame. However, most playstyles, with the exception of Stall, are viable. Hyper Offense in NFE has to reckon with Clefairy cores and Servine cores, but has some strong wall breakers to do so in Haunter, Fraxure, and Frogadier. Other offensive styles of play such as VoltTurn and Spike Stack exploit the lack of Ground-types and hazard removal within the tier. The former has a particularly strong core in Monferno/Staravia and Electabuzz, which checks common defensive cores such as Clefairy and Mareanie/Ferroseed. Spikes Stack, similarly, is played primarily because of how difficult it is for defensive team styles to deal with it. The most prominent Spikes user in NFE is Roselia, who threatens hazard removers such as Wartortle, Servine, Prinplup, and Togetic with its STAB coverage. Other notable Spikes setters include Mareanie and Ferroseed. Sometimes Spikes Stack Offense is combined with other playstyles that benefit from the chip Spikes provide, such as Bulky Offense and VoltTurn Offense. All in all, NFE is a wide-ranging metagame whose low power creep offers an enjoyable experience for both beginners and competitive players alike.
These are the Viability Rankings for the NFE tier. Pokemon are ranked based on their positive and/or negative traits, including their splashability, effect on the metagame, and reliability, as well as numerous other factors. All Pokemon for now are ranked by alphabetical order. If you'd like to see a Pokemon change rank, please leave a constructive post here detailing the rank you'd like to see the Pokemon moved to, and provide evidence to support your reasoning. Most importantly, if you wish to nominate an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, replays are required. Remember, The VR will fluctuate to accurately reflect the state of the metagame.
The current NFE Banlist consists of these Pokemon: Chansey, Doublade, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Magneton, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Type: Null, Vigoroth, as well as any fully evolved Pokemon
The current NFE Banlist also consists of these abilities: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Shadow Tag
The current NFE Banlist also consists of these moves: Aurora Veil, Baton Pass
These currently banned Pokemon are not mentioned in the Viability Rankings, and Pokemon with access to these moves and/or abilities are ranked based on their viability without said moves/abilities.
Reserved for Pokemon that do great in the current meta, and otherwise need little to no support to function, or ones that provide a tremendous amount of support.
Reserved for Pokemon that work well in the meta or can provide valuable niches, but otherwise have large competition or flaws that make them not as viable as A-Rank Pokemon.
Welcome to the NFE Sample Team Archive! Here you will find a collection of solid, successful teams intended to help new players get acclimated to the metagame and different playstyles found within Not Fully Evolved. Everyone is welcome to submit a team, but in order to maintain a good quality archive, your team will be subject to approval before its addition. You may use any team in this archive as you see fit. Teams are updated in the OP.
Team Submission Guidelines:
An Importable of the team is required.
A brief explanation of how the team works and what each member does. You may also include any success the team had in tournament play, and if you want, some replays.
A submitted team will be added if deemed up to par.
Now onto the teams!
Hazardous Fight Spam
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 116 HP / 216 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Heavy Slam
Monferno @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
This is a team with a straightforward premise,set up hazards and pressure your opponent with the dual fighting types. First, Machoke pressures opposing teams with its use of the move Knock Off, combined with its vast coverage and strong fighting STAB. Then, Monferno can break walls on the opposing team using the combination of Swords Dance, priority in Mach Punch, and a Fightinium Z boosted Close Combat. Together, these two Pokemon can either remove Eviolites for the other, or punch holes in the opposing team's otherwise troublesome bulky Pokemon. Roselia then supplies the team with its ability to use Spikes with its great typing in the meta. It can repeatedly come into the battle against water types, check Servine, set up its Spikes, and heal using Synthesis when need be. By setting these Spikes, it limits the times the opponent can freely swap out their Pokemon, placing immense pressure on their team. Supporting Roselia, Clefairy is another one of the teams hazard setters, but it also serves many other important roles. Clefairy can set Stealth Rocks, helping the teams matchup versus flying types, while also acting as a late-game sweeper with the combination of Calm Mind and Soft Boiled. Next, Grimer-Alola is meant to improve the match-up against the increasingly common Pokemon Haunter and Kadabra. Grimer can use Pursuit to trap these Pokemon, while also providing the team another way to distribute Knock Offs and check Servine. Finally, Staravia rounds out the team by giving it speed control in the form of choice scarf, a non-fighting type wall breaker, a way of gaining momentum via U-Turn, and hazard removal as a last resort if your opponent is ahead of you in setting their own hazards.
Krokorok @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Beat Up
This team is built around Swords Dance Monferno, a threatening sweeper in the metagame. The general goal of the team is to weaken the opposing team using constant offensive pressure and residual damage from Spikes. Roselia provides Spikes support which wear down the opposing team and also provides the team with a defensive check to special attackers such as Servine and Electabuzz. Clefairy provides the team with Stealth Rock support. In addition, it provides the team with a win-con with Calm Mind. The offensive core of Kadabra and Haunter, can break Pokemon that Monferno struggle with such as Mareanie and Duosion respectively. In return, Monferno easily handles Pokemon such as Pawniard and Grimer-A that threaten Kadabra and Haunter. Haunter and Kadabra can also overwhelm checks for each other by using moves such as Will-O-Wisp. and Counter respectively. Finally, Choice Scarf Krokorok gives the team a form of speed control against offensive threats such as Kadabra, Haunter, and Electabuzz as well as being able to sweep late game itself by snowballing using its ability, Moxie.
Grimer-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 170 Atk / 88 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak
- Pursuit
Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
Monferno @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Swords Dance
Riffing on one of the most popular VoltTurn cores in Frogadier + Electabuzz, this is a pretty standard offensive team. Frogadier and Electabuzz have amazing synergy; Frogadier handles Ground-types that might trouble Electabuzz, while Electabuzz handles bulky Waters, such as Prinplup or Wartortle, who would otherwise wall Frogadier. Besides being used as a special attacker and pivot, Frogadier also acts as speed control, outpacing relevant threats such as Choice Scarf Haunter, Kadabra, and Fraxure after two Dragon Dances. Clefairy acts as a glue Pokemon in this team by providing Stealth Rock, which further improves upon the chip damaging shenanigans that the VoltTurn core brings to the table. Additionally, it checks Sliggoo, who is a major threat to Frogadier, Electabuzz, and Servine, and can double as a sweeper against other passive Pokemon by using Calm Mind. Servine is the team's Ground and Water resist with its bulk and recovery in Synthesis. Leaf Storm and Contrary also allow it to sweep many unprepared teams. Monferno was chosen as the team's primary physical attacker due to its coverage, destroying Ferroseed and Roselia, two moderate threats to the team. Using Swords Dance and Firium Z, it functions as a late-game sweeper and wall breaker. Grimer-Alola is used as a foil for Monferno; it threatens Kadabra and other Psychic-types with a STAB Pursuit should they attempt to switch in, as well as Haunter. It also gives the team Knock Off, which removes the ever-so-common Eviolite from enemy Pokemon. This benefits the sweepers on the team significantly and allows for more chip damage from VoltTurn.
Welcome to the Role Compendium for Gen 7 NFE. In this thread you will find all of the usable Pokemon in the SM NFE tier organized into roles that they can fulfill for a team. The list is arguably incomplete, so if you find any errors or missing Pokemon in specific roles then please message me (Simbo) on Smogon, PS, or Discord to fill it in.
Depending on how the metagame develops, more roles may be added as time goes on and there might be some revamps to the project later down the line.
This Metagame is now open! Please bear with us as we fix some of the images. There will be a channel in the OM discord dedicated to this new metagame, which is replacing Middle Cup.
We now have a timetable for official room tours in the nfe room. The tours will start on the 22nd of April and run at the following times.
Timetable (EST/gmt -5)
Monday: 2pm and 8pm
Tuesday: 4pm and 10pm
Wednesday: 2pm and 8pm
Thursday: 4pm and 10pm
Friday: 2pm and 8pm
Saturday: 11am, 4pm and 10pm
Sunday: 11am, 4pm and 10pm
Timetable (gmt +1)
Monday: 8pm and 2am
Tuesday: 10pm and 4am
Wednesday: 8pm and 2am
Thursday: 10pm and 4am
Friday: 8pm and 2am
Saturday: 5pm, 10pm and 4am
Sunday: 5pm, 10pm and 4am
Getting this thread started with a slightly controversial nomination but one that I believe there's enough support behind to make this post worthwhile
Nominating Roselia for S:
In my very large amount of time playing NFE (so long I don't even remember who invited me to it and long enough to go through 3 different tier leaders) I've witnessed the rise of Roselia as the premier check to certain threats as well as the premier spike setter of NFE. I wont talk about Roselia's performance in previous iterations of the meta as that doesn't apply to it currently.
The most important aspect of Roselia's viability is its access to spikes. In a metagame as slow and bulky as NFE currently is, the damage done my spikes is monumental, especially with the majority of Pokemon not having access to a recovery move barring rest. Spikes are what set Roselia apart from almost every other grass type in the meta. Quilladin and Ferroseed also have access to spikes but do not provide other things that Roselia does
What pushes Roselia above and beyond in my opinion is its ability to counter Servine and non-specially defensive Clefairy thanks to its defensive typing and impressive base 80 special defense stat in conjunction with its base 100 special attack.
Vs. Servine Roselia is able to come in on a leaf storm and 3hko the common specially defensive spread with sludge bomb while servine is unable to beat it with even a +6 hidden power fire
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 180 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Servine: 114-134 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Contrary Servine Leaf Storm over 3 turns vs. 32 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 76-90 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- not a KO
+6 4 SpA Servine Hidden Power Fire vs. 32 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 128-152 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Roselia spread I used in these calcs runs 220 speed evs in order to outspeed this specific Servine Spread, a set without these speed evs means taking even less damage from Servine but also allows it to heal with synthesis before Roselia attacks it.
Vs. non-specially defensive variants of Clefairy Roselia does the same thing, though it's a 2hko if the clef is at +0.
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 186-218 (54 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Unfortunately specially defensive Clefairy is able to 1v1 Roselia much more consistently than the physically defensive variants, though these spreads have worse matchups with other common threats that Roselia can easily be paired with like Machoke and Grimer-Alola.
Overall, I believe that the massive amount of support Roselia provides via spikes in addition to its reliability as a Servine counter and Clefairy check push it above the other Pokemon in A+ and into S Rank.
Nominating Riolu for a spot on the VR (Most likely somewhere in the C Tier).
First of all, Riolu can do this to Clefairy:
+4 252+ Atk Riolu Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefairy is the top mon of the current meta, and If a Riolu set up Substitute and Swords Dance (at least twice) It can 2 hit kill, which is really nice.
Now, I know what you're thinking, "What about the Clefairy using Moonblast?" Well, look at this.
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 230 SpD Riolu: 186-218 (84.1 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A Riolu is able to survive one Moonblast with at least 230 EVs in the SpD stat. With this, a Riolu can effectively take down a Clefairy, which is really nice.
Another reason to run Riolu is Prankster. A defensive Riolu could effectively paralyze with Thunderwave or use Toxic against dangerous threats such as Servine. Poisoning or Paralyzing a Servine is a good decision to cripple its effectiveness. It can also threaten Alolan Grimer because it gets Reversal. A Substitute + Reversal set can do so much.
252+ Atk Riolu Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Grimer-Alola: 283-334 (94 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Riolu is a Pokémon that can take down tanks if the opponent isn't careful enough. If your opponent lets Riolu set up, you get an easy win. Not only that is can take down tanks, it defeats many Pokémon that can't deal with it due to them being too slow or not strong enough.
Next up, I am nominating Graveler-Alola for a spot on the VR (Probably high C, low B)
Graveler-A is an amazing substitute of an Electabuzz. It can threaten a lot of Pokémon such as Clefairy, Haunter, Kadabra, Metang, Monferno, and the list goes on and on. It can even take out Wartortle and Prinplup with a Galvanize Return which has a 122.2 base power.
Graveler-A is also really defensive, so it can soak up a lot of attacks.
252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Graveler-Alola: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This alone shows it is beefy. Another great thing is its typing, Rock/Electric.
Weaknesses: Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
Resistances: Electric, Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison
It resists a lot of the major types in the current meta. Roselia, Grimer-A, Electabuzz, and Haunter all will struggle trying to even touch Graveler-A.
This Pokémon is a defensive tank and a hard hitter. If the enemy isn't ready, then they are in for a big fight.
Hmm this seems really similar to middle cup... so a few questions.
1. Why is this at Level 100 instead of Level 50? I don't think this will have much of an effect on damage calcs or speed tiers but middle cup was at Level 50.
2. Why so many bans? For example, I don't remember Piloswine or Rhydon being overwhelming at all in middle cup, and this meta seems to lack good ground types. Maybe we could even go as far as unbanning everything bar Type Null, Gligar, and Scyther and go from there, or would Golbat which checks Gurdurr which checks Chansey etc. just be a case of broken checking broken
3. Would it be possible to consider an Eviolite ban, or would that just turn the whole meta into hyper offense?
Not only a Pokémon with a fantastic offensive and defensive typing, but great stats to boot. Having access to great STAB moves such as; Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt and Bullet Punch, whilst also having strong coverage in the form of Earthquake, Thunder Punch and Hammer Arm allows it to take on a lot of threats in the current meta. It also has access to Stealth Rock, which is a huge plus.
Metang typically runs 2 sets, those being; bulky all-out attacker and bulky choice banded. Bulky all-out attacker is able to 1-v-1 a lot of top ranked Pokémon, such as Clefairy, Electabuzz, Roselia, Grimer-A, Gloom, and Togetic.
Choice Band Metang is able to hurt the checks/counters to Metang conjunction with Hammer Arm, such as; Pawniard, and Ferroseed.
A few examples:
Against Electabuzz (Choice Specs & Electrium-Z), specs Electabuzz struggles to 2HKO and electrium Electabuzz just does over half, with Earthquake (+ Bullet Punch) being able to pick up the KO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 144-169 (44.4 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Electabuzz Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 186-219 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metang Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 260-308 (95.9 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Against Grimer-A (standard Eviolite), it is able to do just above half while Metang is able to outspeed and 2HKO with Earthquake.
252+ Atk Grimer-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 168-200 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Metang Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Grimer-Alola: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Against Clefairy (Calm Mind Eviolite), it is unable to beat Metang even with Fire Blast. Clefairy is unable to set up enough Calm Minds to aim for a KO. If it is max SpA; it will lose to a Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch, and if it is max Def; it will lose to 2 Meteor Mash while not doing enough to pick up the KO at +1.
+1 0 SpA Clefairy Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 126-150 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 74-90 (21.5 - 26.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 4HKO
With all this being said however, Metang does have some heavy flaws to keep it being higher.
It does not have reliable recovery, making it not viable enough for defensive/stall sets without external help.
Only hitting base 50 speed means it will be slower than a handful of Pokémon that can heavily dent it or gain momentum from it.
Abilities are too 'niche' or nonviable. It allows Metang to not be Intimidated, which therefore keeps Metang's offensive prowess, though this is too 'niche'. Light Metal does not help it in any form.
Coverage for Steel + Psychic:
Super Effective: Fairy, Fighting, Ice, Poison, Rock
Neutral: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Normal, Psychic, Water
Resists: Steel
Immunities: None
'Niche' moves:
Ice Punch (wouldn't be 'niche', but not enough Ground types & Gabite/Vibrava use to abuse),
Pursuit,
Brick Break (no loss of speed from Hammer Arm with the cost of weaker power),
Power-Up Punch / Hone Claws,
Explosion (boom for 250 power before death).
Conclusion
Overall, Metang can be justified for the A- / A position as it takes on the common and necessary threats that a handful of Pokémon currently struggle against. It may struggle to go higher with the reasoning against it as stated prior.
Snorlax I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.
1. Someone else can add to this since I wasn't here when the tier was made but NFE is a separate tier to middle cup. The purpose of NFE isn't to try and emulate middle cup rules as much as possible, but to create a separate enjoyable metagame. I'd assume levels are set at 100 because there's no need to go to 50. Metagames typically only go below 100 if the change in level is part of the core principle of that metagame (e.g level 5 lc) and I don't think being level 50 is that important.
2. Piloswine, Gurdurr and Gligar were all freed in previous iterations of the meta, but they all proved to be far too good for the meta and were subsequently banned. You can read up on some of the council banning reasoning here if interested:
It's possible that some of the pokemon banned may be individually tested and integrated into the meta then potentially banned again if they prove to be too good but Eviolite really helps these pokemon, who already have fantastic stats, be too bulky while still being offensive threats. In Evio-less HO middle cup, they may not have been as potent but in NFE they are fantastic. In the last NFEDT, there was an NFE Ubers metagame where these pokemon were freed, you can find replays in discord and I'll link a few here, but the metagame was very centralising. It is essentially using broken to check broken. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-827001010https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-826850893https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-821745937
3. I don't think Eviolite will ever be banned. I think one of the reasons why NFE established itself as its own metagame separate to MC was due to the restrictions in MC (No Evio and no LC Pokemon allowed). Eviolite is an integral part of this metagame.
Hmu on discord or feel free to reply here if you have more questions.
Hmm this seems really similar to middle cup... so a few questions.
1. Why is this at Level 100 instead of Level 50? I don't think this will have much of an effect on damage calcs or speed tiers but middle cup was at Level 50.
2. Why so many bans? For example, I don't remember Piloswine or Rhydon being overwhelming at all in middle cup, and this meta seems to lack good ground types. Maybe we could even go as far as unbanning everything bar Type Null, Gligar, and Scyther and go from there, or would Golbat which checks Gurdurr which checks Chansey etc. just be a case of broken checking broken
3. Would it be possible to consider an Eviolite ban, or would that just turn the whole meta into hyper offense?
I'll touch on 1 more since Simbo covered 2 and 3 very well though I'll also provide my thoughts on Eviolite. NFE is played at level 100 instead of anything else because stopping at say, 50, is completely arbitrary. It was decided at the beginning to simply play at level 100 instead of stopping somewhere for no reason.
About an Eviolite ban. I am personally pro ban and have been for a while. The defensive boosts granted by it warp the meta into the slow bulky mess it is currently. Only certain offensive Pokemon are able to thrive in this meta due to their sheer power and ability to secure KOs even in an Eviolite meta. Though it may result in a larger banlist I personally believe that an Eviolite ban would make NFE into a better metagame, disregarding how Middle Cup dealt with Eviolite entirely
Next up, I am nominating Graveler-Alola for a spot on the VR (Probably high C, low B)
Graveler-A is an amazing substitute of an Electabuzz. It can threaten a lot of Pokémon such as Clefairy, Haunter, Kadabra, Metang, Monferno, and the list goes on and on. It can even take out Wartortle and Prinplup with a Galvanize Return which has a 122.2 base power.
Graveler-A is also really defensive, so it can soak up a lot of attacks.
252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Graveler-Alola: 204-240 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This alone shows it is beefy. Another great thing is its typing, Rock/Electric.
Weaknesses: Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
Resistances: Electric, Fire, Flying, Normal, Poison
It resists a lot of the major types in the current meta. Roselia, Grimer-A, Electabuzz, and Haunter all will struggle trying to even touch Graveler-A.
This Pokémon is a defensive tank and a hard hitter. If the enemy isn't ready, then they are in for a big fight.
Heya, I just saw your post and I think you're missing out on some points especially when you're talking about Graveler-A.
First of Alolan Graveler is not a substitute for Electabuzz, they really don't work the same way. Electabuzz is much more of an Offensive Pivot due to its good Special Attack and Speed which makes it a key threat to the tier while Alolan Graveler on the other hand doesn't really excel at doing anything, you could try using it as a hazard setter carrying Stealth Rock or a Wallbreaker but it will most likely set you back rather than help you in your game. The problem with Alolan Graveler is that it lacks special bulk and speed due to being a Rock-Type which really makes him not worth using when you have better options to run with. It originally was in C tiers a very long time ago because as bad as it is it's not completely unusable however when you compare on what your team could be using instead you'd usually go with other choices, if you're running a bulky hazard setter set you might think of choosing a Pokemon like Marshtomp or Metang and if you're thinking of using it as a wallbreaker you might be better off using Machoke or Monferno.
I also think a lot of your calcs from both of your mentions are misleading. Clefairy always runs HP evs no matter what set and investing 230 evs in Sp.Def to barely make out of Moonblast is actually a lot to invest in for an offensive Pokemon. I really like that you tried to get these Pokemons a rank but I think you should start familiarising yourself a little more with the metagame as I'm sure you'll have no trouble settling in. If you need any help many players in the community will be pleased to help out with anything you need and even future noms!
I've been playing NFE a bit recently but not enough to collect any large opinion on something large such as Eviolite, but it should absolutely NOT be banned based on the precedent that it creates a slow and bulky meta. The thought of such a meta is unappealing to most, but the meta is still playable (as it obviously has a decent following). Let's take a look at the tiering policy to get a better idea of what I'm talking about (I've chosen to go over the unhealthy portion because I'd imagine that is what is being referred to here, as obviously an item isn't broken).
Tiering Policy said:
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
"These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame."
In terms of the elements in question, we are talking about the Pokemon alongside Eviolite. Are there any Pokemon that hold Eviolite that are undesirable for the metagame? I would say definitely not. One could mention that there are several bulky Pokemon that could perhaps be hard to kill such as Togetic, Sliggoo, or Clefairy, but not to the extent that anyone would say they are overwhelming in their own right. Besides, it would be more to code to ban the individual Pokemon anyway, unless an extremely large portion of the tier was abusing Eviolite (in which case, there are not). On top of this, there are ways to nullify the effects of Eviolite. Perhaps through Sheer Power, or the use of Knock Off. This latter point could be used to make a ban case for Eviolite in terms of a team building case, but again, as mentioned, Eviolite isn't overwhelming in its own right.
"This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity."
Here's where a case could be made. As someone mentioned in this thread above, certain offensive Pokemon aren't allowed to thrive because of the existence of Eviolite. However, I'd like to see some examples for that argument. There are plenty of great offensive Pokemon in the tier. Pokemon like Monferno, Metagross, Pawniard, Roselia, and Marshtomp come to mind. Perhaps they could be referring to some of the other weaker Pokemon in the meta. In this case, it really isn't possible to make every Pokemon viable. While it would perhaps be ideal to ban Eviolite to make other Pokemon viable (which is subjective), a meta should really try to be as nonrestrictive as possible (this means less bans = more good). Also, it should be considered that perhaps some of the more common defensive Pokemon would drop in usage as well (although there would be no way of knowing without some extensive testing). This would again fit the narrative that an offensive meta would be more ideal, which may be true, but does not match up with how bans should be approached. To add onto what the quote says, skill is not hampered at all by Eviolite either, at least on the battling side of things.
Those are really the only two points in there that pertains to this conversation. To summarize, banning Eviolite is never a good idea, at least in terms of the argument used above, because it fits a subjective agenda. While the general opinion is that offensive metas are more fun, this can't be the case for everyone, so approaching situations like these with an objective head space is ideal. The reason for this is that we are supposed to be as nonrestrictive as possible with the metas we create. The only reason a ban should take place is if the item / ability / Pokemon in question makes the meta less skilled to play (i.e. the worse player with the broken strategy will more than likely will against the better player without the strategy), or if there is a significantly large restriction in diversity. From what I have seen, Eviolite does not fit into either of those categories, so I would not support an Eviolite ban.
+4 252+ Atk Riolu Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Clefairy is the top mon of the current meta, and If a Riolu set up Substitute and Swords Dance (at least twice) It can 2 hit kill, which is really nice.
why does that clef have no hp?
+4 252+ Atk Riolu Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
also riolu's defenses are pretty sad so setting up a sub and swords dancing twice would be extremely hard, even with prankster
the sub-reversal set could be neat but base 60 speed isn't the greatest so yeah it might get one kill but then it's getting bopped
also riolu doesn't get thunderwave
so yeah if that was a meme post can u wait for this thread to have more than one post before doing that
100% agree with slimes' post for roselia, just wanted to add that roselia can also run some spa and with or without spa leaf storms do a lot to many unresisted hits
however, i disagree with eviolite ban. there's simply no reason to do so in my opinion. the meta is indeed slow and relatively bulky, but as yoshi said it's playable, and there is still diversity in the meta.
psa i wrote the stuff after this before other people responded but no point in deleting it so yeah
2. Why so many bans? For example, I don't remember Piloswine or Rhydon being overwhelming at all in middle cup, and this meta seems to lack good ground types. Maybe we could even go as far as unbanning everything bar Type Null, Gligar, and Scyther and go from there, or would Golbat which checks Gurdurr which checks Chansey etc. just be a case of broken checking broken
piloswine was a very tough thing to switch into, even clef got 2hko'd by eq (252+ Atk Choice Band Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 165-195 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO) one of the only switchins was marshtomp and that was very liable to getting chipped down due to no recovery outside of rest. it was also quite bulky with 100/80/60 defenses, so it's not like it was getting ko'd very often. it would be nice to hear council's reasoning tho since it was council ban and "reasoning will be coming out shortly from each of the council members"
D: vooper
gurdurr was just extremely strong and hard to counter: bulky waters struggled to deal damage to it outside of toxic which gave it guts to be even stronger, it had drain punch which made it tough to chip down, and could even run poison jab for clef/togetic
Gonna lob some VR noms and give opinions on some of the mons nommed above
Roselia: A+ to S - Agree
Agree with everything Sans said. To add, Roselia gets up easy spikes against a reasonable amount of the meta, not just serv and clef, such as defensive Togetic sets, bulky waters, buzz/frog if its not locked into a SE move, gloom, defensive mare, opposing rose etc. Spdef rose walls/checks a solid amount of the meta. In addition, rose is a threat to almost every playstyle in NFE. Spikes alone put massive pressure on stall/balance builds and forces them to defog constantly. Offensive and HO builds typically dislike switching into spdef rose even if uninvested, since Sludge/Giga from uninvested base 100 Spa hits Evioliteless offensive threats like Monferno hard.
With the ability to counter/check a lot of the special threats in the meta, longevity, and broken spikes, it's definitely a meta-defining Pokemon and worthy of S.
Metang: B+ to A- - Agree
Kie made some very solid points for Metang's rise, which I agree with. Wanted to add that it's also a solid Flying check, which is nice in a meta where Flying resists are not utilised much. Metang also has other viable and reasonably good sets, adding to its versatility, such as the bulky spdef set, the offensive agility set and even the dual screens set.
Bulky spdef lets it Pursuit trap even Sball Kad and lets it better chip other strong special attackers such as Frog and buzz better if they are locked into an unfavourable move and check CM flamethrower Clef better.
Agility lets it act as a reasonably solid cleaner, which outspeeds the unboosted metagame at +2 and has solid coverage in Mash, ZHB and EQ.
Metang is probably one of the best Dual screens setter, even if that playstyle is niche, due to its solid defensive typing and stats.
Overall, its versatility, defensive utility and good stats make it worthy of A- imo.
Riolu: Unranked to C - Disagree
I think the biggest issue with Riolu is the question 'Why am I using Riolu over Machoke?' Machoke offers better wallbreaking against the likes of Clef and Mare but its far stronger, bulkier, gets knock and doesnt need setup turns. I think its hard to justify using any offensive Riolu set while Machoke exists, unless it was some form of Copycat Prankster SD HJK set, but a set like that requires an incredible amount of team support to work.
I think Riolu does have a niche in the metagame, which is Prankster Weather. However, there's no evidence in the form of replays to show that manual weather with Riolu is good enough in the meta to justify Riolu being ranked.
To echo what Marjane said tho, I'm sure you'll familiarise yourself with the meta easily and feel free to hit me up if u want help with anything.
To lob some noms of my own
Machoke: A- to A
This mon is a massive threat to any team. With the power and coverage needed to break through defensive walls such as Mare and Clef, there's very little in the tier capable of switching into and checking Machoke. 4 attacks evio with cc knock heavy and eq do this much to standard walls Clef and Mare:
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 36-42 (10.4 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
Possible damage amounts: (36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38, 38, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42, 42)
252+ Atk Machoke Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefairy: 264-312 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (264, 268, 270, 274, 276, 280, 282, 286, 290, 292, 296, 298, 302, 304, 308, 312)
252+ Atk Machoke Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 176-208 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (176, 178, 180, 182, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 198, 200, 202, 204, 208)
Heavy Slam 2hkos max max clef and does huge damage after knock. In return, clef does this:
0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (138, 140, 140, 144, 144, 146, 150, 150, 152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 158, 162, 164)
Similar story with Mare, Machoke even has guts to make burn an advantage.
Eviolite Machoke is surprisingly bulky, capable of even eating strong SE hits in return, which makes it difficult to revenge when it hits so hard.
From my trawls through all the Pokemon available in NFE, I've found 3 usable pokemon capable of switching into Machoke without getting 2hkod and have longevity, which are max max tangela, max max quilladin and max max shelgon.
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (118, 118, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quilladin: 135-159 (41.4 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 151, 153, 154, 156, 159)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shelgon: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 153)
However, add hazards to these calcs and the story becomes different.
On top of bulky 4 attacks evio, machoke has also two other sets, its offensive juggernaut guts flame orb set and a very bulky max hp max spdef bulk up rest set.
Guts flame orb cannot be switched into, nothing really can boast taking hits from that set reliably, since everything can get destroyed if its carrying the correct coverage move.
The bulky max hp max spdef spread is far more niche and requires more team support but it can be effective as a late game unbreakable wincon.
Machoke does have its problems, which is why it was overshadowed by Gurd when it was still around. Offensive Machoke sets are very susceptible to chip from switching into weak attacks or from hazards. In addition, its main stab CC lowers both defences, which makes it easier to revenge after it gets an attack off.
Overall, Machoke's incredible offensive capabilities and solid bulk with Evio are worthy of A. One of the biggest threats to bulky/stall builds and it has enough bulk to at least 1v1 something on HO teams. Pair it with VoltTurn or maybe even webs and it becomes an even better threat.
Kadabra: A+ to A
This ones probably gonna be controversial and I'm interested in seeing what other ppl think about this.
I don't think Kadabra holds its weight as much in comparison with the rest of the mons in A+, primarily because of two reasons, Grimer-A (and to a lesser extent other Dark Types) and because of how it needs to preserve its sash in most matchups but lacks the ability to OHKO or even 2HKO a lot of bulkier walls. Grimer-A is a fantastic Pokemon right now (potentially even A+ worthy but that's for another day) and being able to switch into Kadabra directly, play around the Counter with Clear Smog/FB then trap it while taking little from dazzling sets it back. High Grimer-A usage sets Kad back.
In terms of attack power, only having Psychic STAB is honestly not too great for it. Kad relies on pressuring Pokemon with its high speed and Focus Sash. However, Psychic is too weak to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of high ranking bulky Pokemon that it wants to such as Clef, Serv, Rose. Any Pokemon hit neutral by Psychic can invest enough HP and Spdef to check Kadabra if it has longevity. For a Pokemon that's so reliant on keeping its sash intact, its power is disappointing in this bulky tier.
Typical sashkad cannot effectively break bulky/stall teams and does very little to checks and walls such as servine. Other offensive Pokemon in A+ have the ability to cripple walls with utility and hit them harder (Haunter) or can get momentum on them via VoltTurn (Buzz, Frog, Monf).
Sash Kad also has no good defensive resistances. Compared to Haunter, who has very useful Ground and Fighting immunites and useful Grass/Poison resistances, Kadabra cannot switch in on any attack because of how reliant it is on sash.
Kad is still a great pokemon. It's fantastic vs HO and offensive teams which may need to sacrifice 1-2 mons to break its sash and kill it. It's also a reasonably solid revenge killer, although teams using speed boosting mons will have ways of getting kad down to sash. However, I don't think it holds its weight vs bulkier builds in the metagame compared to everything else in A+.
I asked this question in the general SQSA but but maybe it makes more sense to ask here.
Is Pikachu viable in NFE at all? Or is Light Ball banned? Middle Cup had it banned btw.
If Light Ball is unbanned and considering maybe priority is not that common, apart from Monferno and Pawniard, it seems reasonable to assume it might have a place in the VR. Or is it completely unviable?
I would make it as a nomination myself but I have no experience with this meta.
I asked this question in the general SQSA but but maybe it makes more sense to ask here.
Is Pikachu viable in NFE at all? Or is Light Ball banned? Middle Cup had it banned btw.
If Light Ball is unbanned and considering maybe priority is not that common, apart from Monferno and Pawniard, it seems reasonable to assume it might have a place in the VR. Or is it completely unviable?
I would make it as a nomination myself but I have no experience with this meta.
Light ball is probably banned due to eviolite not existing in Middle Cup, meaning it hit very hard. The NFE meta is not kind to Pikachu and whilst it has been used well by certain users, it will never be a high ranked mon on the viability rankings. Electabuzz does a lot of things far better, the only move I think Pikachu has that makes it more threatening is agility/nasty plot as it allows it to sweep, however it is far too frail to do so effectively in the majority of matches.
Light ball is probably banned due to eviolite not existing in Middle Cup, meaning it hit very hard. The NFE meta is not kind to Pikachu and whilst it has been used well by certain users, it will never be a high ranked mon on the viability rankings. Electabuzz does a lot of things far better, the only move I think Pikachu has that makes it more threatening is agility/nasty plot as it allows it to sweep, however it is far too frail to do so effectively in the majority of matches.
Can Pikachi have a niche perhaps as a physical sweeper? With ESpeed and VTackle now available in the same set in Gen VII, might this be a niche over Electabuzz? Or is it doomed to lay in the shadows of any meta?
Can Pikachi have a niche perhaps as a physical sweeper? With ESpeed and VTackle now available in the same set in Gen VII, might this be a niche over Electabuzz? Or is it doomed to lay in the shadows of any meta?
I think that the bulk offered by Pokemon with Eviolite is too great for Pikachu to overcome. Even with Light Ball, it isn't the most strong Pokemon in the world, and is still extremely frail. I don't think Pikachu is overly viable in any capacity, but I suppose it could hold a small niche.
Can Pikachi have a niche perhaps as a physical sweeper? With ESpeed and VTackle now available in the same set in Gen VII, might this be a niche over Electabuzz? Or is it doomed to lay in the shadows of any meta?
In gen 6, I could have made a very good point for it, with the special contest pikachus giving amazing coverage moves. In gen 6, you could use icicle crash as that was a move on pikachu belle. However, that is exclusive to gen 6, so that is not obtainable. Volt tackle and extremespeed are cool but pikachu has base 35hp so it will probably kill itself after a few moves in tandem with its poor bulk. I do think Pikachu has a niche, primarily with the agility set as it can hit harder than electabuzz sans item and you can afford to run modest. However, I think it will not be highly ranked, unless the meta undergoes a significant change.
Can Pikachi have a niche perhaps as a physical sweeper? With ESpeed and VTackle now available in the same set in Gen VII, might this be a niche over Electabuzz? Or is it doomed to lay in the shadows of any meta?
You could probably make an argument for Pikachu being somewhere in the C ranks, the physical set has a few niches over other electric types like buzz such as knock off and espeed.
Espeed hits fast frail attackers such as Frogadier, Monferno and Electabuzz surprisingly hard
With light ball and volt tackle, it can act as a strong physical wallbreaker.
Pikachu has a lot of flaws tho, some of which were mentioned by Yoshi and London. It's so frail that its virtually impossible to get in unless via VoltTurn or on free switches/doubles and, if it cant kill what's in front of it, it's probably going to die. Usually, its a lot easier to use other physical wallbreakers like machoke or monferno instead since they're easier to use and break teams better and either have much better bulk and coverage (machoke) or fantastic stabs and good speed (monferno). Espeed is a decent niche, potentially worthy of being ranked if you argued enough for it, but any form of cleaner Pikachu would require a lot of teamsupport to do well.
I think the special set is pretty outclassed by electabuzz, electabuzz's speed is really valuable in the tier, being faster than haunter and frog.
