Metagame NFE Metagame

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
The No Johns NFE Tournament: Semifinals

john |jän|
noun, verb, johned, johning
  • A cheap excuse for losing, missing a recovery, being hit by an attack, or any number of unfavorable events in Smash. It is a statement or action that detracts from the validity or quality of a competition (or its implied significance), irrespective of truth.
This tournament will be contested under USM NFE rules. What makes this different from any other tournament is the fact that the deadlines are short. 3 day maximum. No Johns.

Tournament Rules and Clauses

  • Sleep Clause: A player cannot put two or more different opposing Pokémon to sleep using attacks that induce sleep to opposing Pokémon.
  • Species Clause: A player cannot have two of the same Pokémon on their team. For example, a player cannot have two Koffing on his or her team.
  • Evasion Clause: A player cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize in their Pokémon's movesets.
  • OHKO Clause: Players cannot use Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, or Fissure in any of their Pokémon's movesets.
  • Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses.
  • Endless Battle Clause: Any moveset on any pokemon that is capable of intentionally causing an endless battle is banned from competitive play. Check this thread for more informations.
  • Uber Clause: Players may not use any items, moves, abilities, or Pokemon that appear on our NFE Ban List. If the tiers change or new items, abilities, moves, or Pokemon become available in the middle of a round, the changes will take effect in the following round. There will be an announcement in the relevant round if this occurs. Unlikely in this scenario.
  • Deadlines will be very short. Schedule asap and via Smogon VM if possible. There will be no extensions.
  • Single elimination, best of 1.
Admin Calls

The game of lockjaw vs WMAR did not happen. Neither scheduled adequately enough to justify getting an act win, so the game was coinflipped. Lockjaw won the coinflip.


182917


Semifinals

Cheff Gordo
vs Quagg
lockjaw vs DadoRossoFuoco

Replays are mandatory.
Posting the replay in your win post would be ideal. However, if you wish to re-use teams and do not want to reveal them, you can send the replay to me via Smogon or Discord PMs. I do plan on making all replays available at the end of the tour with usage stats.

Deadline is Friday 28th June 23:59 EDT (gmt -4). Finals will be up a few hours after the deadline.
 
Last edited:
well ok fine

CG vs QUAG
CG beat me but i played garbage that game and was super tired(not saying i should have won). so that game doesnt show much skill but CG has done a really nice job getting to semifinals and a few tough battles. Although CG may have show some skill QUAG is one of the best players imo. Not only do i think QUAG is slightly better i want him to win. (sry CG)

lockjaw vs DRF
Lockjaw is known as a top player, but i feel everyone in the NFE community have pretty simular skill because of it being a new meta. This means anyone can win including the other game but lock jaw has won a tour i believe and has 100 percent proven to be good at usum nfe.

excited to watch these both should be good matches. may the hax not be with u.
 

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
The No Johns NFE Tournament: Finals

john |jän|
noun, verb, johned, johning
  • A cheap excuse for losing, missing a recovery, being hit by an attack, or any number of unfavorable events in Smash. It is a statement or action that detracts from the validity or quality of a competition (or its implied significance), irrespective of truth.
This tournament will be contested under USM NFE rules. What makes this different from any other tournament is the fact that the deadlines are short. 3 day maximum. No Johns.

Tournament Rules and Clauses

  • Sleep Clause: A player cannot put two or more different opposing Pokémon to sleep using attacks that induce sleep to opposing Pokémon.
  • Species Clause: A player cannot have two of the same Pokémon on their team. For example, a player cannot have two Koffing on his or her team.
  • Evasion Clause: A player cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize in their Pokémon's movesets.
  • OHKO Clause: Players cannot use Horn Drill, Guillotine, Sheer Cold, or Fissure in any of their Pokémon's movesets.
  • Timer Clause: If a player exhausts the timer, he/she loses.
  • Endless Battle Clause: Any moveset on any pokemon that is capable of intentionally causing an endless battle is banned from competitive play. Check this thread for more informations.
  • Uber Clause: Players may not use any items, moves, abilities, or Pokemon that appear on our NFE Ban List. If the tiers change or new items, abilities, moves, or Pokemon become available in the middle of a round, the changes will take effect in the following round. There will be an announcement in the relevant round if this occurs. Unlikely in this scenario.
  • Deadlines will be very short. Schedule asap and via Smogon VM if possible. There will be no extensions.
  • Single elimination, best of 1.
Admin Calls

The game of lockjaw vs DadoRossoFuoco did not happen. DadoRossoFuoco gets the act win.

Finals


Cheff Gordo vs DadoRossoFuoco

Replays are mandatory. Posting the replay in your win post would be ideal. However, if you wish to re-use teams and do not want to reveal them, you can send the replay to me via Smogon or Discord PMs. I do plan on making all replays available at the end of the tour with usage stats.

Deadline is Monday 1st July 23:59 EDT (gmt -4). Good luck to both finalists!
 

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
Congratulations to DadoRossoFuoco for winning the NFE No Johns Tour! Good job to Cheff Gordo too for his very impressive run. Hope you all enjoyed the tour.

Replays and Usage Stats

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Semis
Cheff Gordo vs Quagg
lockjaw vs DadoRossoFuoco (Act win to Dado)

Finals

Cumulative Usage Stats and Win Rates
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Monferno | 24 | 44.44% | 50.00% |
| 2 | Roselia | 20 | 37.04% | 60.00% |
| 2 | Electabuzz | 20 | 37.04% | 60.00% |
| 4 | Staravia | 16 | 29.63% | 50.00% |
| 4 | Grimer-Alola | 16 | 29.63% | 37.50% |
| 6 | Clefairy | 15 | 27.78% | 46.67% |
| 6 | Servine | 15 | 27.78% | 33.33% |
| 8 | Marshtomp | 14 | 25.93% | 28.57% |
| 9 | Mareanie | 13 | 24.07% | 61.54% |
| 10 | Machoke | 11 | 20.37% | 81.82% |
| 10 | Pawniard | 11 | 20.37% | 54.55% |
| 12 | Krokorok | 10 | 18.52% | 70.00% |
| 12 | Kadabra | 10 | 18.52% | 50.00% |
| 14 | Togetic | 9 | 16.67% | 44.44% |
| 15 | Metang | 8 | 14.81% | 62.50% |
| 15 | Combusken | 8 | 14.81% | 37.50% |
| 17 | Klang | 7 | 12.96% | 42.86% |
| 17 | Haunter | 7 | 12.96% | 42.86% |
| 17 | Frogadier | 7 | 12.96% | 42.86% |
| 20 | Wartortle | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 20 | Misdreavus | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 20 | Eelektrik | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 23 | Vullaby | 4 | 7.41% | 100.00% |
| 23 | Prinplup | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 25 | Quilladin | 3 | 5.56% | 100.00% |
| 25 | Ferroseed | 3 | 5.56% | 66.67% |
| 25 | Duosion | 3 | 5.56% | 33.33% |
| 25 | Lairon | 3 | 5.56% | 33.33% |
| 25 | Hippopotas | 3 | 5.56% | 33.33% |
| 25 | Staryu | 3 | 5.56% | 0.00% |
| 25 | Sliggoo | 3 | 5.56% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Vibrava | 2 | 3.70% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Lampent | 2 | 3.70% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Marill | 2 | 3.70% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Torracat | 2 | 3.70% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Drilbur | 2 | 3.70% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Frillish | 2 | 3.70% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Murkrow | 2 | 3.70% | 50.00% |
| 32 | Trumbeak | 2 | 3.70% | 50.00% |
| 40 | Braixen | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Weepinbell | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Dewpider | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Magnemite | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Gabite | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Tangela | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Trubbish | 1 | 1.85% | 100.00% |
| 40 | Ivysaur | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Lickitung | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Zubat | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Gloom | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Wooper | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Dusclops | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Snivy | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Snover | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Sandshrew-Alola | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Munchlax | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Magmar | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Zigzagoon | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Purrloin | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Honedge | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Whirlipede | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |
| 40 | Dragonair | 1 | 1.85% | 0.00% |

Two Mon Core Combinations Usage and Win Rate

Cutoff Point for these combos was 4+ times seen in the tour
+ ---- + -------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + -------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Electabuzz / Monferno | 10 | 18.52% | 60.00% |
| 2 | Grimer-Alola / Clefairy | 9 | 16.67% | 55.56% |
| 2 | Monferno / Servine | 9 | 16.67% | 44.44% |
| 4 | Roselia / Monferno | 8 | 14.81% | 75.00% |
| 4 | Roselia / Machoke | 8 | 14.81% | 75.00% |
| 4 | Monferno / Clefairy | 8 | 14.81% | 37.50% |
| 4 | Marshtomp / Electabuzz | 8 | 14.81% | 37.50% |
| 8 | Roselia / Staravia | 7 | 12.96% | 71.43% |
| 8 | Roselia / Krokorok | 7 | 12.96% | 71.43% |
| 8 | Electabuzz / Mareanie | 7 | 12.96% | 71.43% |
| 8 | Monferno / Grimer-Alola | 7 | 12.96% | 42.86% |
| 8 | Marshtomp / Grimer-Alola | 7 | 12.96% | 14.29% |
| 13 | Electabuzz / Machoke | 6 | 11.11% | 83.33% |
| 13 | Roselia / Clefairy | 6 | 11.11% | 66.67% |
| 13 | Electabuzz / Roselia | 6 | 11.11% | 66.67% |
| 13 | Grimer-Alola / Staravia | 6 | 11.11% | 50.00% |
| 13 | Frogadier / Monferno | 6 | 11.11% | 50.00% |
| 13 | Marshtomp / Monferno | 6 | 11.11% | 50.00% |
| 19 | Machoke / Mareanie | 5 | 9.26% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Monferno / Kadabra | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Electabuzz / Togetic | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Roselia / Mareanie | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Staravia / Mareanie | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Staravia / Krokorok | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Monferno / Togetic | 5 | 9.26% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Electabuzz / Grimer-Alola | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Monferno / Staravia | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Pawniard / Servine | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Marshtomp / Staravia | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Servine / Klang | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Roselia / Metang | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Monferno / Mareanie | 5 | 9.26% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Servine / Clefairy | 5 | 9.26% | 20.00% |
| 19 | Servine / Grimer-Alola | 5 | 9.26% | 20.00% |
| 19 | Marshtomp / Servine | 5 | 9.26% | 20.00% |
| 36 | Vullaby / Machoke | 4 | 7.41% | 100.00% |
| 36 | Vullaby / Electabuzz | 4 | 7.41% | 100.00% |
| 36 | Machoke / Krokorok | 4 | 7.41% | 75.00% |
| 36 | Machoke / Staravia | 4 | 7.41% | 75.00% |
| 36 | Metang / Mareanie | 4 | 7.41% | 75.00% |
| 36 | Pawniard / Roselia | 4 | 7.41% | 75.00% |
| 36 | Roselia / Grimer-Alola | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Servine / Kadabra | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Combusken / Metang | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Combusken / Grimer-Alola | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Pawniard / Staravia | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Staravia / Klang | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Misdreavus / Monferno | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Haunter / Roselia | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Pawniard / Monferno | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Electabuzz / Pawniard | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Electabuzz / Staravia | 4 | 7.41% | 50.00% |
| 36 | Electabuzz / Servine | 4 | 7.41% | 25.00% |
| 36 | Marshtomp / Pawniard | 4 | 7.41% | 25.00% |
| 36 | Frogadier / Roselia | 4 | 7.41% | 25.00% |
| 36 | Pawniard / Togetic | 4 | 7.41% | 25.00% |
| 36 | Marshtomp / Togetic | 4 | 7.41% | 0.00% |
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
ORAS NFE

Welcome to ORAS NFE and the resources for this metagame. This post contains key mechanics present in ORAS NFE that are not present in the current USM metagame. This post also contains a preliminary Viability Ranking for the metagame, as well as sample teams and the banlist for the tier.

Rules:

Mechanic:
Only Pokemon who can evolve are allowed.

Clauses: OU Clauses

Banlist:
  • The following Pokemon are banned in ORAS NFE: Chansey, Doublade, Fletchinder, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Haunter, Machoke, Magneton, Pawniard, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Servine, Scyther, Sneasel, Vigoroth, as well as any fully evolved Pokemon
  • The following abilities are banned in ORAS NFE: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Shadow Tag
  • The following moves are banned in ORAS NFE: Baton Pass
The council members for this metagame are Monsareeasy, Quagg, Crystalites, 85percent, SBPC, Mirbro, dom and Simbo

Key Changes between USM NFE and ORAS NFE
  • All generation 7 Pokemon, including Alolan forms, cannot be used in generation 6.
  • Burn damage is 1/8 per turn.
  • Paralysis multiplies speed by 1/4.
  • The crit chance is increased from 1/24 to 1/16 in generation 6.
  • Confused Pokemon have a 50% chance of hitting themselves each time they try to move.
  • IVs are tied to Hidden Power type, so a Pokemon with any Hidden Power type other than Dark must have imperfect IVs.
  • Destiny Bond does not fail from consecutive use.
  • Prankster-affected moves have no added immunities.
  • No Z-Crystals.
  • All of the moves on this list are unavailable in generation 6.
  • The following Egg Moves from SM and USM are unavailable for certain Pokemon in generation 6.
  • Some Pokemon do not have access to certain USM Move Tutor Moves in previous generations, such as Defog.
  • Some moves were nerfed/buffed in the transition from generation 6 to 7.
Explanation for the Banlist
  • The same banlist barring new Moves/Pokemon introduced in generation 7 was carried over from USM NFE to ORAS NFE. Not enough had changed between ORAS and USM to justify freeing the banlist for this old gen. All the Pokemon present on the USM banlist are still broken and too good relative to the rest of the Pokemon in the ORAS NFE metagame.
  • Haunter: Reasoning for Haunter's ban can be read here.
  • Fletchinder: Reasoning for Fletchinder's ban can be read here.
  • Servine: Reasoning for Servine's ban can be read here.
Viability Rankings

These are the preliminary Viability Rankings for the ORAS NFE metagame. Pokemon are ranked based on their positive and/or negative traits, including their splashability, effect on the metagame, and reliability, as well as numerous other factors. All Pokemon are ranked by alphabetical order. If you'd like to see a Pokemon change rank, please leave a constructive post here detailing the rank you'd like to see the Pokemon moved to, and provide reasoning to support your nomination. The VR will fluctuate to accurately reflect the state of the metagame.

S-Rank

Reserved for absolutely meta defining Pokemon.

S

IMG_6385.PNG
Clefairy

IMG_6398.PNG
Monferno

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that do great in the current meta, and otherwise need little to no support to function, or ones that provide a tremendous amount of support.

A+

IMG_6269.PNG
Electabuzz

IMG_6229.PNG
Frogadier

IMG_6421.PNG
Kadabra

A

IMG_6218.PNG
Gabite

IMG_6380.PNG
Misdreavus


IMG_6225.PNG
Quilladin

A-

IMG_6387.PNG
Duosion

IMG_6393.PNG
Fraxure

IMG_6215.PNG
Krokorok

IMG_6360.PNG
Lampent

IMG_6216.PNG
Metang

IMG_6299.PNG
Roselia

IMG_6435.PNG
Staravia

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that work well in the meta or can provide valuable niches, but otherwise have large competition or flaws that make them not as viable as A-Rank Pokemon.

B+

IMG_6403.PNG
Combusken

IMG_6339.PNG
Klang

IMG_6319.PNG
Magmar

IMG_6455.PNG
Marshtomp

IMG_6453.PNG
Munchlax

IMG_6248.PNG
Rufflet

IMG_6252.PNG
Vullaby

B

IMG_6394.PNG
Croconaw

IMG_6375.PNG
Ferroseed

IMG_6377.PNG
Hippopotas

IMG_6411.PNG
Marill

IMG_6358.PNG
Togetic

IMG_6240.PNG
Wartortle

B-

IMG_6306.PNG
Dusclops

IMG_6219.PNG
Lairon

IMG_6405.PNG
Murkrow

IMG_6501.PNG
Natu

IMG_6213.PNG
Prinplup

IMG_6465.PNG
Sliggoo

IMG_6436.PNG
Tangela

IMG_6449.PNG
Vibrava

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have a notable niche, but are generally outclassed or have a major flaw/major flaws that hold them back.

C+

IMG_6345.PNG
Eelektrik

IMG_6527.PNG
Frillish

IMG_6303.PNG
Lickitung

IMG_6281.PNG
Mienfoo

IMG_6268.PNG
Pikachu

IMG_6418.PNG
Seadra

IMG_6413.PNG
Weepinbell

IMG_6226.PNG
Whirlipede

C

IMG_6314.PNG
Ivysaur

IMG_6495.PNG
Shelgon

IMG_6497.PNG
Slowpoke

IMG_6498.PNG
Swadloon

C-

IMG_6528.PNG
Chinchou

IMG_6267.PNG
Dragonair

IMG_6496.PNG
Drilbur

IMG_6499.PNG
Grotle

IMG_6502.PNG
Porygon

IMG_6307.PNG
Riolu

IMG_6241.PNG
Staryu

IMG_6529.PNG
Tentacool

IMG_6504.PNG
Voltorb

IMG_6503.PNG
Zweilous

Sample Teams

Below are some ORAS NFE sample teams. Feel free to submit sample teams if you wish, but in order to maintain a good quality archive, your team will be subject to approval before its addition. You may use any team below in any way you see fit.

Team Submission Guidelines:
  • An Importable of the team is required.
  • A brief explanation of how the team works and what each member does. You may also include any success the team had in tournament play, and if you want, some replays.
  • A submitted team will be added if deemed up to par.
Now onto the teams!

HazardStack Bulky Offense - Submitted by Dom

IMG_6527.PNG
IMG_6215.PNG
IMG_6398.PNG
IMG_6299.PNG
IMG_6216.PNG
IMG_6435.PNG


Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Taunt
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp

Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 156 SpD / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest / Taunt
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Earthquake

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Slack Off
- Fire Blast
- Vacuum Wave

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Aromatherapy / Giga Drain

Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 128 HP / 236 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Staravia @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- U-turn
- Pursuit


HazardStack Offense - Submitted by SBPC and Indol

IMG_6216.PNG
IMG_6360.PNG
IMG_6398.PNG
IMG_6229.PNG
IMG_6215.PNG
IMG_6299.PNG


Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Zen Headbutt
- Meteor Mash
- Pursuit

Lampent @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Trick

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Grass Knot
- Vacuum Wave

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Toxic Spikes

Krokorok @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Beat Up
- Stone Edge

Roselia @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis


SD Pawn Bulky Offense - Submitted by Crystalites
Outdated

IMG_6385.PNG
IMG_6217.PNG
IMG_6218.PNG
IMG_6421.PNG
IMG_6398.PNG
IMG_6252.PNG


Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Flamethrower

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off

Gabite @ Eviolite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 176 HP / 252 Def / 80 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Roar

Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Taunt

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Slack Off
- Mach Punch

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
NFE Premier League 3

NFE Discord Link: https://discord.gg/5XTKytZ

SIGNUPS WILL BE ON DISCORD, POST YOUR SIGN IN POST IN THE SIGNUPS CHANNEL IN THE NFE DISCORD

It's finally time for NFEPL Season 3! I'll be the host for this season. There will be 6 teams this season, and they are:

IMG_6376.PNG
Bayern Munchlax, managed by London13 and frisoeva
IMG_6376.PNG

IMG_6214.PNG
Ferocious Ferroseeds, managed by BloodAce0107 and RuffletMuffler
IMG_6214.PNG

IMG_6260.PNG
Monferno Mafia, managed by neomon and tbd
IMG_6260.PNG

IMG_6463.PNG
Ravenous Roselias, managed by Cheryl. and Miyami~~~
IMG_6463.PNG

IMG_6446.PNG
The Sliggoons, managed by vooper and Crystalites
IMG_6446.PNG

IMG_6484.PNG
Traitorous Trumbeaks, managed by Thunder~BALLZ and Spiderz
IMG_6484.PNG


The tiers will be:

SM NFE bo3
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
ORAS NFE
NFE Ubers

All slots are bo1 barring the one SM NFE bo3 slot.
Each team will need 8 players to fill these slots. In addition, they also need at least 2 substitutes.
SM NFE will be played in the gen 7 NU format.
ORAS NFE will be played in the gen 6 RU format. The banlist can be found here.
NFE Ubers will be played in the gen 7 Ubers format in a custom roomtour. Every banned NFE Pokemon and banned move/item is freed in Ubers EXCEPT Shadow Tag and Eevium Z.
Managers and Assistant Managers are responsible for ensuring that their players do not bring illegal teams to their games. If a player brings an illegal team, the opposition are free to take the win or offer a redo.

Please format your signups as follows and please post the signups in the signups channel in the NFE discord.

Smogon Username:
PS Username:
Discord Tag:
Timezone:
Tiers played:
Can you build for yourself and/or others?:
Significant Time Missed?:

Have fun!

Signups close at midnight EDT (gmt -4) Friday 12th July. The draft will happen at 4pm EDT Sunday 14th July.
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
Adapted from the LC Announcements and Administrative Decisions thread

This is a post for the schedule, rosters, auction and other general information regarding NFEPL 3.

Unfortunately, we are only allowed one forum for our entire metagame. Unlike official metagames and level 2 unofficial metagames, we cannot create separate threads for signups and each week of the premier league. Therefore, we decided to host signups and weeks on the NFE Discord to make sure this forum does not get too cluttered with win and signup posts. There is a signup channel, admin channel, matchups, match scheduling and replay channel for NFEPL 3 in the NFE Discord.
Each week, I will post lineups on both the Discord and on the forums. At the end of each week, I will make a round up post on this forum which will contain the standings, any admin decisions made during the week, replays and usage stats for that week. The Discord round up post will have standings and admin decisions.
Managers should use the admin discord channel in the NFE Discord to notify people of substitutions, ask for act or to alert other managers and me of any issues their players have with scheduling with the opponent.
The NFE Discord will be the main hub for discussion and for NFEPL. The forum will mainly be used by me for round up posts at the end of the week and to announce next week’s games. However, if you want to make any VR nominations, sample team submissions and/or metagame posts during the tour, feel free to post it on the forums.
Since the main hub for the tour is the Discord channel, it is expected that people will schedule on Discord. It is recommended that you schedule on Smogon VM because its public and visible by everyone. However, there will be a match scheduling channel on Discord where you can tag your opponents and schedule games publically on Discord. Good scheduling guidelines can be found here. If you can’t schedule properly, don’t complain if act calls don’t go your way.

Week 1

Bayern Munchlax vs Traitorous Trumbeaks
The Sliggoons vs Ravenous Roselias
Ferocious Ferroseeds vs Monferno Mafia

Week 2

Bayern Munchlax vs The Sliggoons
Monferno Mafia vs Traitorous Trumbeaks
Ferocious Ferroseeds vs Ravenous Roselias

Week 3

Bayern Munchlax vs Ravenous Roselias
Ferocious Ferroseeds vs Traitorous Trumbeaks
The Sliggoons vs Monferno Mafia

Week 4

Bayern Munchlax vs Monferno Mafia
The Sliggoons vs Ferocious Ferroseeds
Ravenous Roselias vs Traitorous Trumbeaks

Week 5

Bayern Munchlax vs Ferocious Ferroseeds
The Sliggoons vs Traitorous Trumbeaks
Monferno Mafia vs Ravenous Roselias

Bayern Munchlax - | London, frisoeva | - frisoeva, plas, trace, Ereshkigal, Cheff Gordo, czim, Cam, banks, Blinkboy, Official Fissure, SMB
Ferocious Ferroseeds - | BloodAce0107, RuffletMuffler | - Bloodace, Tack, King Leo V, DadoRossoFuoco, precognicent, xHys, Alexander489, Sealette, Kaif, SBPC, Monsareeasy, PhantomHurious
Monferno Mafia - | neomon, Thiago Nunes | - neomon, Tnunes, Toy Time King, Ninjadog13, Spitfire Arcanine, PD, 85percent, elgino, CrazyStevy, EnzoLapras, Yami, Boulicrok, Cheese555
Ravenous Roselias - | Cheryl, Miyami | - Cheryl, Miyami, Ktutverde, dom, rafooa11, Marjane, taranteeeno, Raj.Shoot, amphareixon, againa, voltage
The Sliggoons - | vooper, Crystalites | - vooper, Crystalites, Lockjaw, quagsgone, SHSP, Grewt, martha, jcbc, Jho, velvet blood, Bebo, eli, rssp1
Traitorous Trumbeaks- | Thunder~BALLZ, spiderz | - TBZ (banana spritzee), spiderz, ShuckleDeath, Xayah, JezebelleXX, free my man tele, Hawkie, huston, thej3estpenguin, DanDaMan99, tallydaorangez, Lucario1582

YOU ARE EXPECTED TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE GENERAL TOURNAMENT RULES AND THE SCHEDULING GUIDELINES.

The tier lineup for NFEPL 3 is as follows:

SM NFE bo3
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
SM NFE
ORAS NFE
NFE Ubers

All slots are bo1 except the 1 SM NFE bo3 slot.
SM NFE will be played in the gen 7 NU format.
ORAS NFE will be played in the gen 6 RU format. The banlist can be found here.
NFE Ubers will be played in the gen 7 Ubers format. Every NFE and banned move/ability is freed in Ubers EXCEPT Shadow Tag.
Managers and Assistant Managers are responsible for ensuring that their players do not bring illegal teams to their games. If a player brings an illegal team, the opposition are free to take the win or offer a redo.
There will not be any retains from last year's teams. Managers will be permitted to purchase themselves along with an assistant manager prior to the draft. Assistant managers will not be required to sign up prior to being purchased.
Managers can trade players and/or credits. Managers should privately negotiate and, if they reach an agreement, then message me and inform me of the trade. I will ask both managers separately and privately if they agree to the trade I’m given. If they both agree, the trade goes through, I announce the trade publicly and the spreadsheet and roster is updated. If not, the trade falls through.

Identity
hey pals this stuff is just the cliffnotes, for the full list of rules for Smogon Tournaments check here

About playing on alts: It is entirely allowed to play on an alt other than your own main forum name, though if your opponent wishes to confirm your identity, you must log on to your main alt to show them you are who you claim to be. This is to prevent people from pretending to be who they're not.

About playing on different servers: Tournament matches should be played on the Smogtours server. The Main PS! server is also acceptable if both parties agree to that. Other servers are not sanctioned and playing in them might result in your game not counting. Protect yourself from that by playing in Smogtours, where TDs also have the power to recreate games that end due to DC's.

Scouting

On scouting opponents: Going through your opponents replays of tournament and ladder games is entirely allowed, as long as a game is public there is nothing preventing you from watching it. An exception to this is abusing powers granted to you by being staff on Smogon or PS! to gain access to information a normal user wouldn't have access to, which is strictly forbidden.

On leaking teams: Divulging private information about someone's planned team to their opponent is never allowed, and will be heavily sanctioned. Requesting that such information be divulged is also grounds for punishment. Keep your scouting to publicly available information and you'll be fine.

Total money for teams is 100,000 credits.

In the weeks preceding the live auction, a time will be chosen by all of the Managers to meet and perform a live auction in order to choose players. Managers will be expected to remain at the auction for the entire duration, which should take approximately 2 hours. If a Manager cannot, for some reason, find any feasible time that they can attend a Live Auction, then the assistant manager will be called upon to fill in the spot. If no Manager can fill the spot for the Live Auction… then a new General Manager + assistant manager who can find time to make a live auction will be found to replace the old ones.

Once a time is set, all 6 managers + me will enter the place where the auction will be held - most likely the NFE room. Spectators are allowed to join in to watch the fun unfold, but will not be able to speak. Discussion on the bidding at hand should be relegated to the NFE Discord or any other appropriate chat outlet.

The hosts will first ask a team to nominate a player. The order by which teams will nominate players will go in a randomized snaking pattern from the first chosen team to the last chosen team, then the last chosen team to the first chosen team. Details of said player will be displayed and bidding will commence, starting at 3000 credits, with the nominating team automatically placing the first bid. The auction will then be in real time. Managers will simply put in their bids in the chat, raising a minimum of 500 credits. If after 15 seconds there are no new bids, the player is sold to the highest bid in the channel. Updated credit totals will be displayed and then the next manager in the rotation will be prompted to nominate a player.

Managers are asked to please have a predetermined list of players you intend to nominate as well as potential bid caps, in order to make the process go as quickly and seamlessly as possible.

Managers: it is necessary for you to field a roster of 8 starters and a minimum of 2 substitutes. This creates a soft cap of 73,000 credits on any particular bid - that is, the maximum amount of money you can spend on any one player and still have enough money left over to pay at least 3000 credits a piece on 9 more players.

At the start of Week 2, sign-ups will open for midseason. Players who weren't drafted or people who did not sign up before the draft can sign up and a new free agent list will be made. Note: Even if you signed up the first time around, you must re-signup in order to get on the midseason free agent list. Signups will be in a channel on Discord. After sign-ups close, I will remind each manager how many credits they have left over from the original live auction. In addition, each team will get an extra 5000 credits on top of any credits saved from the live auction for mids.

Instead of having another live auction, an auction will take place in a specific NFE Discord channel. Managers will post their bids, with other managers having up to 12 hours from the time of the post to make a higher bid on the player. After 12 hours, if the manager has not been outbid, his or her team will be awarded the player/s. The Midseason auction will occur during Week 3. The players purchased here will be allowed to start playing starting on Week 4. There is no use for leftover credits after the midseason free agent pickups, so it is in every manager’s best interest to spend all of their remaining points at this time. No players may enter NFEPL 3 after the midseason auction, except in the case of a team falling below the minimum number of starters due to their players being banned, in which case they'll be allowed to pick players from the undrafted pool until they reach the minimum.

Managers will also have the opportunity to sellback any inactive or toxic players before or during mids. However, all sellbacks will be 3k.

At the end of the normal weeks, there will be a knockout style playoffs involving the top 4 teams in the points. In the event of a tie in overall points standings, the following criteria is used for breaking ties.

• Overall Points >
• Battle Difference (total # battles won - total # battles lost) >
• Best of 3 - each team picks a unique tier with the winner of the Head to Head matchup picking first, then SM bo1 NFE is the 3rd game. In the event that the two teams tied in the Head to Head matchup, the team with better results against the higher seeds will pick first.

After the top 4 have been determined, each team will be seeded. The #1 seed will play the #4 seed and the #2 seed will play the #3rd seed. The victors of these matches will advance to the finals match.

In the case of a tie, the advancing team will be decided by a best of three - each team picks a unique tier with the higher seed picking first, then SM bo1 NFE is the 3rd game.
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
Manager and Assistant Manager prices

The following managers have bought themselves:

Bloodace0107 - 13k
Thunder~BALLZ - 14k
neomon - 16.5k
vooper - 14k
Cheryl - 11k

Manager London has refused to buy himself.

The following assistant managers have been bought at the following prices and will be allowed to play:

Crystalites - 11.5k
frisoeva - 20.5k
spiderz - 12k
Miyami - 11k

Assistant manager RuffletMuffler has refused to buy himself.

Bayern Munchlax - 79.5k
Ferocious Ferroseeds - 87k
Monferno Mafia - 83.5k
Ravenous Roselias - 78k
The Sliggoons - 74.5k
Traitorous Trumbeaks - 74k


Every manager and assistant manager priced each other based on the following criteria:

NFE Tour Success in tours such as NFEPL 2, Best Friends, No Johns and the two SSNLs.
General skill in NFE and other tiers.
Metagame knowledge.
Rust and how easy/difficult it would be for them to de-rust.

The average of these prices, excluding any anomalies and ridiculously high/low prices, is the price they cost. Managers and assistant managers could not price themselves.
 

Jett

User reading this is cute :3
is a Pre-Contributor
Concept stolen from Vubon who stole the concept from Nineage
NFEPL Vegas Odds (Approved my Vooper)

2/1 Roselia and Servine will both have (combined) over 75% usage in SM NFE.
3/1 Someone loses by timeout
4/1 vooper wins more than 1 game this time (Hopefully!)
9/2 frisoeva goes undefeated
5/1 By Week 3, someone who was in the starting role for NFE Ubers will ask to be subbed out or swapped to a different tier
13/2 Someone misses out on the player they want and asks for the draft to be reset
8/1 A tiebreaker occurs
10/1 Someone brings an illegal team on the first week
15/1 A manager or assman will spend 30K on a player who doesn’t play NFE
20/1 That assman will be RuffletMuffler
25/1 Someone brings the same team every week...
40/1 ...and wins all of those games
30K/1 trace is a cheerleader, again
40/1 A team remains on 0 points by the end of NFEPL

And some longshot ones:
50/1 Secret NFE is reintroduced as a format replacing NFE Ubers after week 2
75/1 Someone on the Traitorous Trumbeaks will take their name seriously and leak teams
100/1 During this tournament, Simbo bans Servine from SM NFE
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
ServRose and the state of the meta
Gonna make a fairly long post on servrose, apologies in advance. Wanted to do this just before NFEPL so ppl can look at these two mons specifically during the tour and formulate an opinion on them. Please join in on this debate during the PL if you have an opinion on either, would be heavily appreciated. I'm still very much on the suspect Servine wave.

I've already stated what Servine's role in the meta is and what it does in a fairly detailed post in April, you can read it
here if you want. This post is mainly gonna focus on policy related arguments for suspecting Servine after the PL and how Roselia links to this and affects the meta in a way that, combined with Serv, heavily restricts teambuilding and centralises the meta.

ServRose relationship

ServRose combine to make teambuilding incredibly restrictive. You have two Pokemon that have similar levels of defensive utility (barring a few cases cause of Rose's dual typing) but are completely different otherwise. Serv is a massive defensive and offensive threat, capable of steamrolling into sth unbeatable and it checks/counters bulky setup. Rose has busted spikes, a great defensive typing which lets it switch in and spike up on a lot of the tier, the ability to wall and hit most forms of hazard removal Pokemon in the meta for SE damage and the longevity to consistently set up spikes most games.
To link this back to serv, one common argument I see defending serv is 'Roselia isnt the only Serv check; Sliggoo, spdef toge etc' also check serv. My main argument against this is that most defensive counters or checks to serv are dogshit against Rose. Special slig is walled by rose, free spikes. Spdef toge needs to be toxic or psych up to beat serv and again, dogshit vs rose. There are only two defensive pokemon capable of semiconsistently switching into most sets of both ServRose and they are Roselia and Alolan Grimer. Alolan Grimer is the easiest pokemon to chip in the meta, it wants to check like 80 percent of the mons in S and A+. My other post explains more about what defensively and offensively checks serv and why most are shaky/bad but, when prepping for serv, if you dont use rose, you have to stack multiple soft checks to serv, while ensuring you dont lose to rose spikes and the plethora of other top tier threats like choke, monf, frog, haunt etc. If you dont use rose, its incredibly difficult attempting to check all threats and, if you go down the voltturn or offensive route, where you are not checking everything defensively but making sure you have offensive counterplay, your team will hate spikes and has to be built in a way to mitigate spikes damage or rose opportunities as much as possible.
Prepping for both is ridiculous rn, most hazard removal cannot keep up with rose and the best hazard removal against rose (bulky star, vib, vull) do not appreciate switching into or even checking serv.
Bulky setup mons like clef, duo, curselax etc are fantastic and setup easily on rose but outright lose to or, at best if you're lucky, 1v1 serv.
Offensive voltturn teams which are good at pressuring serv hate hazardstack rose teams.
You're playing something I'd liken to a 50/50 in teambuilder trying to prep for both serv and rose because of how most mons which are defensively good against one lose to the other. The only defensive Pokemon which match up reasonably well against both are rose and grimes and this is why rose usage feels mandated; its the only Pokemon with longevity which has a decent to good matchup against both serv and opp rose and, on the rare chance you see neither, most likely has atleast an ok matchup vs most teams. Most ppl would probs bring rose in order to check serv in one teamslot and bank on outplaying rose teams but, if they face opp rose, this brings another really undesirable matchup in the meta: Rose on Rose spikewars

Spikewars

Roselia on roselia action is the worst thing in the metagame. Games that end in 15 turns, games which outright punish and prevent doubling cause of the 25% chip per switch, its really shit. Roselia is capable of outlasting and pressuring 80% of hazard removal in the tier. Therefore, most of the time, when one rose comes in, its usually in both players best interest to spike up. There's no skill in not being able to double. With serv pushing rose usage higher and higher, rose on rose action becomes more likely. If you look at the No Johns Tour usage stats, rose had a 37% usage and won 60% of games. Even though staravia, one of roses best defog removal since it directly forces it out, had such high usage, rose still excelled because of how busted spikes are. It's not a desirable meta to have and I'm sure NFEPL will have its fair share of 20 turn spikewar games.

Why Serv instead of Rose?

Even though a lot of my post in April was about serv, I've been bitching a lot about rose in this post. You could easily apply tiering policy to justify suspecting rose imo, rosespikes are just that ridiculously good but I think Servine is the better first suspect. If rose is suspected and goes, serv has to go. Rose is the only thing keeping it in the meta. If serv goes, bulky setup gets better and the metagame shifts that happen may make Rose worse or easier to exploit. In addition, the broken policy fits more with serv than it does with rose.

Serv can beat Rose

This is something I didn't stress much in April. Serv can beat spdef Roselia or, more accurately, the fairly common spdef storm, knock, hp fire, synth set can. If rose switches into a knock, spikes on the switch out, then attempts to come back in later in the game on a leaf storm, it loses to the aforementioned serv set. This is a very common scenario in games. Hp fire and glare are fairly interchangeable on most teams but you have to prep for both in builder.

First switchin
0- Atk Servine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
Possible damage amounts: (52, 53, 53, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62)

Second switchin
0 SpA Servine Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Roselia: 19-22 (6.2 - 7.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Possible damage amounts: (19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22)

+2 0 SpA Servine Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Roselia: 96-114 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (96, 98, 98, 100, 100, 102, 102, 104, 106, 106, 108, 108, 110, 110, 112, 114)

The above with 2 HP fires beat roselia after rocks, even with all min rolls.

In return, rose does this

0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 180 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Servine: 114-134 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (114, 114, 116, 116, 120, 120, 120, 122, 122, 126, 126, 128, 128, 132, 132, 134)


Policy related arguments for suspecting Servine


Heres the tiering policy if you're interested. Gonna go through it bit by bit and explain what applies to serv.

1) Skill - Serv mainly prevents skill in two ways, building creativity and probability management. I'll touch on probability management in the next point and I've already discussed building skill.

2) Uncompetitive - Glare is the main reason why serv can be uncompetitive. Glare lets Serv break through defensive and offensive checks alike with a para or two. It makes serv much more difficult to check or tech around, especially defensively, because serv also has incredible defensive bulk. Teching out a bulky Pokemon to be max hp max spdef doesn't help vs Serv if it can't atleast 2HKO serv in return. Synth also lets serv fish for paras. It will eventually get parad, knocked and overwhelmed by Leaf Storm. As stated in my previous post, there are only 4 longterm switchins to serv: spdef rose, slig, toge and ivy. The rest do not appreciate switching into glare, knock or storms.

3) Broken - I think serv is far too good relative to the rest of the metagame in terms of raw offensive and defensive presence. Again, most of this is covered in my previous post but servs bulk relative to its offensive abilities is insane. On the spdef side, it can tank super effective stab attacks very well (calcs in previous post). On the special side, only super effective STAB Z moves from strong invested special attackers can OHKO it. Its frailer on the physical side, but spdef serv is still bulky enough to avoid OHKOs from most invested STAB super effective attacks. One common argument I got against suspecting serv is that its not anymore threatening than any other offensive mons in the A+ ranks. I completely disagree. Most A+ rank Pokemon dont switch into much, if anything, because they're frail. They also need at least one free turn to setup. Serv doesnt give away free turns and can switch into like 1/3 of the tier. The only reason why it doesn't feel broken is because Rose exists.

4) Unhealthy - I'm p sure viper at some point said not to use this unless necessary. I think this is a scenario where bringing up unhealthy is necessary. In my eyes, serv and rose together combine to heavily limit and centralise building, to the point where using rose feels almost mandated, since its the only pokemon that has a reasonable to good mu vs both opp rose and serv. I've also linked serv to the other tiering policies so my argument doesnt solely hinge on it being unhealthy. Roseserv heavily centralise the meta, and serv is arguebly broken. According to the unhealthy policy, if the metagame is centralised around certain Pokemon, one of which is arguebly busted, you can either suspect it or introduce a new Pokemon in. I would wholeheartedly prefer suspecting serv since I think its busted, but you could also argue for potentially freeing Golbat, although I don't think thats wise. Overall, for this section, I genuinely believe suspecting serv would result in more teambuilding variety and would make skill more important in games. There is no huge public outcry at the moment, although a lot of ppl do want it suspected, but we'll see if that changes in 7 weeks.

Disregarding unhealthy as a policy just because its recommended not to use it unless absolutely necessary is ridiculous imo. Everything in NFE that outright fit the broken policy has already been banned. If the suspect threshold is set at pilogliggurd levels of busted, nothing will ever be suspected, especially when two of those bans were us fixing a mistake. Likewise, uncompetitive is mostly reserved for moves and abilities such as Moody, Baton Pass, Swagger etc. No Pokemon currently in the meta will ever fully fit into this policy. Therefore, you have to consider unhealthiness as a policy, its there for a reason.

Final thoughts and NFEPL predictions

Overall, wanted to put this out there before NFEPL so ppl look at these two mons during the tour and see what effect it has on building and playing during the tour. I expect rose usage to be very high, minimum 40% if not 50% because of how good it is and it checks serv with a high winrate. Serv usage will be a lot lower imo, I dont expect it to go over 25-30% because rose is far easier to put on teams, it doesnt give opp rose free spikes if not knock hp fire. It'll also have a lower winrate imo but that's solely because of Rose. Its still busted even though rose exists.
There's a chance my takes are retarded and I'll be proven completely wrong in the next 7 wks. These two will be discussed after the PL so, if you have any takes on either rn or develop any during the tour, feel free to chime in on the discussion. If you wanna rip my posts apart, feel free.

Tl.dr. San Bervine
 
Last edited:
So I'm seeing a lot of talk about a Servine suspect or ban and honestly I can't say I disagree with the sentiment. However I would be more on the side of a suspect of Golbat with the intention of unbanning it. Now there's a lot more people with a lot more experience on this ladder than me so if this is something that's been discussed and dismissed than feel free to tell me why but from my point of view Golbat wouldn't be broken. Powerful sure and it would change the meta but I don't think it would bend the meta the way Servine and Roselia do (tentacool is still a great answer to Rose btw and should definitely on the VR but hey).

The main reason that I think this mon won't be over powered or over centralizing is that it's raw stats aren't particularly special. It's got good all round stats, decent speed and good bulk with eviolite but that's nothing special in a tier where every mon can run eviolite. The reason it sees use in NU is it's incredible move pool and this, in combination with a great meta typing, is where the bat comes into it's own. Taunt, Defog, Roost, Haze, Super Fang, Whirlwind and Tailwind give it great support options and on the offensive side it's got Brave Bird, Heat Wave, U-turn, nasty plot and even Poison Fang for a toxic that can't be taunted. But a great move pool and good bulk for that move pool don't turn a Pokemon into a superstar or else you'd see a lot more Jigglypuff usage in this meta.

So now we come to it's matchups. A specially defensive set with Brave Bird, Taunt, Defog and Roost would manhandle both Roselia and Servine (Haze would help against Serv too, or even Whirlwind to take advantage of spikes) and have a good matchup with Clefairy too. Now that's the entirity of S tier and that's not even mentioning it's favourable matchups with Machoke, Mareanie, Misdreavus and a lot more mons as you go down the tier list, even a few that don't begin with M. However it's matchups aren't all great. Electabuzz and Kadabra are both extremely common offensive mons with good matchups and while it can switch in on a fighting move from Combusken or Monferno and Brave Bird them, it doesn't want to take a +2 Inferno Overdrive. Steel types also give it trouble if it lacks heat wave, especially Pawniard who can come in on a Defog and do major damage. So the second set I've come up with is a Nasty Plot set with Sludge Bomb, Heat Wave and any of Air Slash, Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, a Hidden Power of your choosing or roost. This could be run bulky with eviolite or fast and strong with life orb. However you're giving up a lot of really useful utility for a sweeper that's weak to rocks and pretty useless without a boost. This mon has a ton of options though so you could see something like a bulky pivot with eviolite and U-turn or a fast physical attacker with Brave Bird. Who knows.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that Golbat would be a strong threat that deals with a lot of the overly strong metagame threats without being over powered. It can be many things and beat many things but it can't do them all at once like Servine can. No matter what the set there's always available counter play and a lot of things (steel types especially) just naturally deal with it. I think it merits a suspect at the least (if this meta has the numbers for a legitimate suspect which would obviously stuff that idea) and if it's borked than lesson learned but I don't think it would be.

Another reason that I would be more in favour of this course of action is that this meta is pretty new and still developing. In these early stages I think it would be preferable not to ban too many things that might not be problematic in the long run. It would better imo to preserve the variety of the meta by adding a mon rather than getting rid of one. I know this meta borrows a fair bit from Middle Mons or whatever it was called but that meta had no eviolite. That's a pretty big difference if you ask me. If you gave every mon in OU access to eviolite it would sure change the meta. Anyway that's just my thoughts and if there's any good arguments against Golbat, which there likely is or it would be in the meta already, I'd love to hear them.
Now add Tentacool to the VR already, seriously it works like a charm
 

Cheese5555

too cheesy
Puzzle Hunt Champion
Special slig is walled by rose, free spikes. Spdef toge needs to be toxic or psych up to beat serv and again, dogshit vs rose. There are only two defensive pokemon capable of semiconsistently switching into most sets of both ServRose and they are Roselia and Alolan Grimer.
curse sliggoo isn't that bad and is a p reliable switchin
also glare servine doesn't feel uncompetitive at all. most things that serv can glare and synth on either almost ko it or do basically nothing
that being said i 100% agree with how most checks/counters can be easily worn down. it feels like the only way to beat serv is constantly having momentum and never letting it in, which is extremely unhealthy.

i do think rose is broken with a general lack of switchins which can lead to that lovely rose on rose action. sludge can be extremely spammable and poison can be very annoying most defensive mons due to the lack of lefties, and unresisted giga/leaf storms are pretty strong. that being said i agree with simbos proposal to ban/suspect serv and go from there.

ps idk if this is an issue or not but nfe shouldn't be scared of suspecting mons that aren't as broken as earlier mons just because of past "mistakes" (which were not, testing a meta is the only way to tier)
 

Jett

User reading this is cute :3
is a Pre-Contributor
I thought I'd just chime in some of my thoughts on RoseServ as they have been considered the two best mons for a while. Also Simbo made some really good points to reignite the debate and I haven't heard of too many counter arguments recently. As someone who isn't completely sure and would currently abstain from voting in Simbo's proposed suspect if given the option to vote today, I'll be evaluating Simbo's post with a somewhat neutral stance.

Firstly, I agree with the fact that Servine does limit teambuilding more so than other mons. It feels pretty bad to just build using the same mons for all my teams which are able to deal with Serv or use even nicher mons such as Zubat. I also don't think Grimer A's usage being high is a result of being able to deal with both Serv and Rose because as mentioned it can check a plethora of special threats, although with no reliable recovery it is worn down easily. The alternative being running multiple checks, isn't ideal either but Serv can be revenge killed. It's hard to tell whether limiting the usage of other setup sweepers is a necessarily bad thing. It may well be Serv is keeping many of these mons in check and that teambuilding in a Servless NFE would require a dark type on every team because the threat of Duosion etc. I don't think it's a slippery slope to say that Clefairy (which is another reason why Roselia usage is high because I do think Clef is better than Rose but maybe because I consider Rose as more one dimensional but it excels at what it does) will become the greatest threat if Serv was removed. Whilst, I don't think we should be scared of suspecting multiple mons, I will link this to a tier which currently most the community agree with that a ban did cause a drastic change and further polarised the tier. In LC, Trapinch was banned earlier this year and it basically cause the LC's metagame to be around the same 10 mons with every team pretty much having VulIaby. Whilst, I don't think that this is going to happen with NFE, I'm saying that it is extremely difficult to predict how a ban influences a tier and if we tried out a non Servine meta for a while and we're allowed to have the option to change back, I wouldn't mind (however in practice I don't think this would ever happen). A suspect is probably the best way forward to further evaluate the situation.

I don't think preparing for Rose is as big as an issue because it's more passive than Servine allowing for more counterplay. Roselia actually struggles to deal with the types that resist, cause it can't self boost and break walls. However, whilst I think Roselia isn't really problematic in teambuilding, when it comes to battling it can create unhealthy games. I do agree with Simbo that Spike Wars between two Roses extremely unfun, boring and being punished for switching out from a somewhat stalemate until synthesis pp runs out is quite unhealthy. Rose doing well against most our limited hazard removal also doesn't help it's case. Rose can easily be shut down by steels and poisons which pretty much all teams have (and I don't think this is because of Rose itself) however the Spikes it leaves on the field are extremely influential. Rose whilst capable of walling many special threats doesn't have the same luxury as Serv when taking physical hits and can it is way easier to punish and revenge kill it. I also think Roselia considered as the best mon able to deal with both the other S tiers is the reason why it's usage is so high but this alone is not enough reason to why it should be banned as we would have banned Monferno by now. I don't think we need to suspect Roselia.

It's clear from my points above, if I had to choose to suspect right now, I would agree with Simbo and choose to suspect Serv first. Suspecting Golbat is pretty much a meme in my opinion. Yes, it would solve the issue with Rose and Serv, but Bat's stats are insane and in conjunction its movepool and its versatility to be multiple offensive and defensive sets, it would be undoubtedly broken for NFE to handle. If suspecting Rose was successful and it was banned from NFE, it would be a matter of days before Serv will also be banned and therefore I think the most logical route would be to suspect Serv first. Whilst ORAS and SM are only somewhat similar, it's agreed on by the ORAS council that the quality of the games did improve after the removal of Servine but more so teambuilding didn't feel as restrained.

Onto the policies that Simbo mentioned now:

Skill: I don't think Servine prevents skill in terms of creativity. I think it forces you to be creative in a very limited way causing the use of niche mons and niche tech. This is somewhat bad but not as bad as you make it out to be

Uncompetitive: I don't think Glare is inherently uncompetitive but parahax is extremely cheese. If anything wouldn't we ban thunder wave because it has less accuracy and does the same thing as glare apart from glare hitting ground types. I don't think glare itself is uncompetitive but this point has been used because Servine's toolkit feels overloaded.

Broken: I disagree with you that broken cannot be used to argue Servine's suspect (although personally I don't regard Servine as being broken and that it wouldn't be the best way to argue its suspect). The power level for broken changes when different mons are removed or added to a tier. I will admit that it is possible that because every team is built with a Serv on the other team in mind, it doesn't feel broken.

Unhealthy: This is where I think Serv could be suspected for. I think in its current state, NFE is a centralised meta on Serv and Clef and how Rose can beat both (causing the usage of Serv and Rose to skyrocket over the past months and decreasing the usage of Clef). The combination of Serv's influence on the mons which can be used and its two different and amazing sets (although fast has sorta fallen out of favour) probably warrants a suspect test (although banning or not banning is a different issue) since it's ability to break for itself and others is unlike anything else in the tier.

It's your turn vooper ; I want to hear your verdict. Also everyone else, do feel free to critique my points and/or convince me to join your side.

TL:DR I wouldn't mind a suspecting Servine but on the fence when it comes to banning it atm.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to add myself to the debate and i'm going to give my thoughts on the rosevine debate; i will also give some thoughts on the golbat topic that D2TheW made.
Rosevine:
Personally i do find servine unhealthy and overcentralizating, as simbo and crystalites already mentioned, the checks are pretty limited thanks to its amazing conerage and having access to knock which allows it to break even easier, the fact that it can knock your eviolite and 1v1 your check to it depending on the hp that it carries (altho i wouldn't use anything but ice) is ridiculous if you ask me. But not only that, servine can also parahax through glare which i find to be a pretty unfair move for a mon with good enough qualities to break like servine is. But is not only that, it's bulky stats are decent too, 60/75/75 on a mon that you'll rarely get to knock his evio off is pretty good.
That's about his qualities, which are a lot, sadly there aren't many weak points on it; common switches to it would be ferroseed and zubat which both have a niche against servine, but its strongest and best switch would be roselia (i will talk soon about it); noticing that it doesn't have many common save switch ins (and some of them still lose to it in a long run), there aren't many mons that revenge kill it either, torracat, kadabra, electabuzz and scarf monferno are some common mons that outspeed them but most of them doesn't like to lose life (electabuzz, monferno and torracat) and kadabra can't even ohko back serv.
About roselia the best servine check without any doubt, idt this mon has anything to do with servine being broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy (call it as you want), is just that is a very good good check to servine [i'll add an example on something similar that happens in NU, torterra is pretty average rocker, but just by the fact that heliolisk exist makes it a top 3 rocker], roselia would be "the torterra of servine". In a meta w/o servine roselia would do its job but it wouldn't be as good pretty sure. (Even that the roselia mirrors are pretty dumb).

So to do a resume on the rosevine discussion and to make clear my point of view: I find Servine to good for the tier and even idk if i'd call it broken it's definetly unhealthy and needs at the very least a suspect test (i would vote yes to ban).

And about the golbat post:
The main reason that I think this mon won't be over powered or over centralizing is that it's raw stats aren't particularly special. It's got good all round stats, decent speed and good bulk with eviolite but that's nothing special in a tier where every mon can run eviolite.
First off you mention that it won't be overcentralizating when you literally mention later in your post that it can beat like 80% of the S and A ranks. And second you are underating the stats of golbat, 75/70/75 is a really good base stats which gives mad bulk, added to this it speed tier allows it to outspeed most of its checks which is amazing and finally it has 80 atk base which is higher than some other mons such as metang, sliggoo or hakamo-o which already hit hard enough.
The reason it sees use in NU is it's incredible move pool and this, in combination with a great meta typing, is where the bat comes into it's own. Taunt, Defog, Roost, Haze, Super Fang, Whirlwind and Tailwind give it great support options and on the offensive side it's got Brave Bird, Heat Wave, U-turn, nasty plot and even Poison Fang for a toxic that can't be taunted. But a great move pool and good bulk for that move pool don't turn a Pokemon into a superstar or else you'd see a lot more Jigglypuff usage in this meta.
As an NU main i can tell that Golbat isn't used for it's good movepool, is just that its typing is so good as it allows you to have a grass resist, a fighting resist, a ground inmunity and a defog user all in once. The set is always the same 4 moves, 3 if you have another defogger/spinner.
Regarding to all those move you mention, i'd say there's like 2 viable sets:
Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn / Haze

^ This set consists on having a good pivot on golbat which allows it to outspeed servine, something that would be huge and pivots on any switch that tries to come in for free on golbat. Haze could be an option to counter measure a boosted duosion.

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 60 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave

^ This set would be worse than the first one since it would lack the check more stuff and it won't find many opportunities to set up but is definetly worth to mention.

However it's matchups aren't all great. Electabuzz and Kadabra are both extremely common offensive mons with good matchups and while it can switch in on a fighting move from Combusken or Monferno and Brave Bird them, it doesn't want to take a +2 Inferno Overdrive. Steel types also give it trouble if it lacks heat wave, especially Pawniard who can come in on a Defog and do major damage.
You mentioned 5 mons, that check golbat but idt half of those should be mentioned and i'm going to tell you rn. Kadabra would without any doubts make golbat run all scared but the thing is kadabra can't hard switch in so to get it in front of it, either a double or a u turn/volt switch on the golbat switch or sacking someone would be needed and some of this options may not be the best; even with this kadabra would keep in check golbat definetly thanks to the amazing power creep it has; electabuzz is obviusly a good check to golbat and even that the latter can switch in easier that kadabra on it, you don't want buzz to be slowly chipped since it's usually a key part on volt turns based teams, for the 2 fire mons you mentioned without any speed boost of any kind (scarf or abilities) both would be slower than golbat and would drop to brave bird so if someone should be scared of the other would be the fire types, and lastly you mentioned steel types such as pawniard, but idk if it does make sense to mentions those when you 2 phrases under this say that heat wave is a good move to carry on it.

With this said, i'll let more people throw their thoughts on this whole discussion but to resume:<br />
<br />
Servine: Suspect and even that i'm on the hence i would vote yes
Roselia: Not broken altho i wouldn't oppose to a suspect
Golbat: Can remain ubers
Tentameme: :psysly:
 
And after this whole post about the Rosevine discussion, i would like to give some vr updates nominations.

Create the tier S+
Servine
Roselia
The reasoning for this is clarified in my post above.
Move down to A-
Combusken
I feel like combusken lacks the movepool to be classified as an A mon.
Rank this to B
IMG_6321.PNG
Poliwhirl
Why is this not ranked, anyways poliwhirl is a pretty good sweeper.
Move up to B-
Whirlipede
Whirlipede is a good spiker and also a pretty bulky mon, it serves as a check for clef and roselia.
Move up to B-
Vibrava
Vibrava is a fairly good defogger in some teams and it serves as a ground inmunity too, C is too low for it.
 

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
is a Tiering Contributor
Gonna reply to some of these posts. Too lazy to do proper quotes, soz

D2TheW

jc's post is really good and covers most of the issues with golbat. I think you undersell Golbats defensive and offensive capabilities. From a defensive standpoint, there is very little that can boast switching into offensive physical and np sets. You mentioned steels but they lose to np wave. Likewise, setup mons can lose to taunt roost sets because of golbats incredible speed stat. Similar to Gligar, the versatility of Golbat is what would make it busted and set it apart from everything else imo. You can run stallbreaker sets, bulky np sets, offensive z move np sets, physically offnesive sets, bulky sets, curse etc. Reliable longevity on a mon like this, plus toxic immunity p, is massive. Idt theres naything in the tier capable of keeping it in check.
Its defensive typing is also ridiculously good in NFE. There are only 4 types which hit it for SE damage in elec, psy, rock and ice. Ice types outright do not exist here, there isnt a single ice type on pur current vr, the closest we have to one is protean frog. Likewise, Lairon and Alolan Graveler are the only rock types on vr and again, both low ranking and tough to casually slap on a team. Elec and psys are more common but even so, theres about 9-10 pokemon on VR which hit it for STAB SE damage. However, this is where calcs come in.

252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (162, 164, 164, 168, 168, 170, 174, 174, 176, 180, 180, 182, 186, 186, 188, 192)
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 236-278 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (236, 236, 240, 242, 246, 248, 252, 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278)

This is specs damage too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 206-246 (58.1 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (206, 210, 212, 216, 216, 218, 222, 224, 228, 230, 230, 234, 236, 240, 242, 246)
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 320, 324, 326, 330, 332, 338, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356)


Those were kad and buzz calcs but you could probably do the same with some other potential checks. You could argue that max hp max spdef might be an arbitrary set but golbat reminds me of gligar in the sense of you can make it whatever set you want. In higher tiers, these mons are bound to specific sets because those sets fulfill the niches it needs to fill. In NFE, it would run the tier and therefore, can be whatever you want it to be. Overall, I do think Golbat would be very busted. I think, if you want to freed, you would need to argue why it doesn't fit the tiering polciy definitions of a broken pokemon in the meta.

This is a bit of a side point but NFE isn't as new as this forum may make it seem, the metagame has been around for atleast a year and a half, it only received a forum on Smogon this March. ServRose meta has been around for 5 months I think.

Cheese5555

I made a point about physical slig in my post on April, gonna cp that and add a bit
Similar story with slig, takes a knock which severely hinders its ability to set up with curse later in the game. It can't set up curse early game unless the curse slig mu is 90/10 or better, can't lock itself into outrage early or midgame because it can be revenged or heavily chipped by the slig check and uninvested non stab iron tail does not hit hard at all. In addition, servs so bulky that it can easily stay in on slig once, scout whether or not its phys or special and glare, which even makes doubling out again risky. Slig is a lot more useful than toge in a non-serv matchup but again, if I want a mon which checks serv, far easier to use rose/ivy since they immediately put more pressure on opposing teams with knock/spikes. I don't think slig can really be called a servine counter, it's better imo to describe it as a bulky setup mon which doesn't lose to serv. As a serv check, all phys slig does is lose its evio and bleed momentum, its not a serv check.

I'll cover Glare when I respond to Crystal.

For your last point, calling it a mistake might've been harsh, rushed is probably a better word. If you care enough, you can go to the old nfe forums and see what the reasoning was for freeing piloglig but only viper and fille used the tiering policy. There's nothing wrong with testing and freeing Ubers, but considering how much I've had to write just for a serv suspect, I think any freeing would need similar levels of evidence and tiering policy arguments.

Crystal

I think mentioning Zubat gives value to my argument. That mon has 245 BST lol. It's the literal definition of
  • These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
which is present in the tiering policy. You'd never use Zubat if Rose and Serv weren't so restrictive.

Revenge killing Serv is not nearly as easy as it sounds, my previous post calcs highlight that. If you have multiple offensive means of revenging serv, you most likely have no defensive counterplay and cannot switch into it well at all. If you have multiple offensive and defensive means of dealing with serv, you're heavily prepping for it in builder. Limiting setup shouldn't be a valid argument for keeping Serv. If banning Serv makes sth else too much, you relate that mon to tiering policy and suspect it.

Talking about your takes on tiering policy

1) Skill - Again, the mention of Zubat discredits your point here. Zubat should never be a valid mon to use in our meta. Being creative in a very limited way is what stops teambuilding skill, your using slightly edited sets of similar mons.

2) Uncompetitive - Yh I use Glare because it overloads Serv's toolkit. If it didnt have Glare, Scarfers and offensive counterplay would be much better, you could safely switch star or scarf fires in on a pinch, take like 40 from storm and force it out. Glare makes this much harder to do but, on top of that, it gives Serv a Hail Mary chance to bullshit through checks lategame or give switchins free turns if para comes through.

3) This point is fair. Personal opinions will be different on whether or not Serv's broken relative to the rest of the meta but Rose being so good and splashable makes Serv feel less broken imo. It's only when you build without Rose and test vs competent players with Serv, you realise how difficult it is to prep for and deal with.

Replays

Third thing vipers requested from me. I'll dump some replays which give evidence to some of my arguments. These are all tournament replays too, not test games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-894661936
Serv glared and knocked a toge, proceeded to Storm up and got 3 kiils. More importantly, it ate a Z Outrage from Fraxure. Fraxure has 117 base Attack, one of the highest in the tier. Highlights how dangerous Serv can be when its not against Rose and how difficult it is to revenge kill.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-887036423
This is a quality game which highlights how stupid Glare can be. You can make judgements about how the early game was played, fair enough, but turn 24 onwards is what I want to highlight. Marj has a full hp evio metang as a serv check. Most tangs have massive 4mss and can't even beat serv unless they get lucky with mash boosts, but marj is able to fit toxic on hers, which should beat Serv. Turn 33 serv knocks tang. Turn 38 serv starts. Two paras and a miss later Serv wins. On top of Glare hax, Serv also consistently provided incredible defensive utility by constantly switching into Buzz Vswitch thoughout the game.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-890127280
This ones interesting. Servine didnt click a single attacking move here. This one highlights how incredible its defensive utility is. It constantly switched into Marshtomp and Electabuzz while keeping itself healthy. No other Pokemon in the tier can do this while having incredible offensive presence.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-888886896
5 kills.


Too lazy to find more, could probs look through No Johns too if I wanted too. I think these replays highlight all facets of Serv which together combine to make it ridiculous.

Aight vooper have fun :) You got two and a half posts worth of shit to counter.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top