Ninetales

[LockDown]

Gengar is actually 110 base speed, which puts it at an unfortunate speed tie with Lati@s and one point under the genies.
And SubDisable wouldn't seem to work that easily, as it is weak to both rock and ground attacks, commonly found on the same pokemon.

 

[M BLADE]

The Ninetales i use of often is a NP+Will-O-Wisp set, which can open some holes and cripple other ones. It works when the freaking Lati@s/Heatrans/something else are out of the game.

 

[Charizard92]

Ninetales @ air balloon
modest
special sweeper EVs
drought

nasty plot
fire blast
HP fighting
Energy Ball


This is my set I run on EVERY sun team I make. people say tales should be there to survive weather war, while this one aims to win the weather war. Set up nasty plot as much as you like, then have some fun trolling weather switch ins ;)


g2g for for the not very explanatory post

 

[Jaetheho]

what if tyranitar and politoed are scarfed?

 

[Ms. Denbo]

To be honest, Ninetales needs support from my experience running sun teams. As much as everyone wants her to come in and Nasty Plot and do all this fighting, when she's your source of sunshine you want her ALIVE, not as your weather counter. She's great at staying alive and causing a few problems, but she simply is not your sweeper. She should set up a sub, hide from status, spread it, maybe run a good move to hit Politoed and Tar on the switch, then get out of there to a REAL weather counter.

If you try to set up Nasty Plot or fight, you're bound to get into trouble. Her offensive set is set in stone - as soon as they see it they know the rest of her moveset. If you don't run HP fighting, a fire move, and Energy Ball, you lose the coverage you need to not get walled completely by various Pokémon. Your opponent will predict you and send in something that will OHKO her. You guys are treating her like she can be your attacker that's going to always get to set up and hit her target. It's rare she can find the opportunity she needs AND hit a Pokémon she wants to without being scared out with her crap defense, uninvested HP and special defense, and weakness to the main pokemon you're trying to defeat.

She's excellent on defense, but the offensive Ninetales that's trying to be a superhero weather killer is just not good. A different offensive role maybe, but that's not her job when she's your weather girl. Get a real weather counter, a real sweeper, and make your Droughtales the excellent support and defensive Pokémon she can be.

 

[Katakiri]

So I've been reading this thread a bit. A lot of you seem to be trying to use Ninetales against other weather starters as a means to take it down. But after doing the calcs, Ninetales just doesn't have the power. In fact Modest LO Ninetales comes short of OHKOing even 4/0/0 Tyranitar in sunlight with HP Fighting 100% of the time. It would need 23 point higher Sp.Attack to even just do that which completely throws my original Sunny Day Ninetales idea out the window. So I was looking through Ninetales' move pool for possible ways to square-off against Politoed & T-tar (I normally just focus on KOing & crippling their supporters) and I ran into Spite. Spite on Ninetales would operates off the basis that Hydro Pump & Stone Edge have such low PP but are generally the only moves Toed & Tar have that threaten Ninetales. It's not really meant to "deal" with them as much as it is to just entirely ruin their most threatening offensive options.

It's not effective early in the game, but Sub + Spite Ninetales can seriously cripple those Pokemon with low PP moves. It kind of makes me interested in Grudge are well. I'm sure we've all been "trapped" as Ninetales before. Either Tyranitar running Pursuit or just being below 25% HP with Stealth Rock up. I'm currently using Chandelure as my secondary Sunny Day Pokemon and to have Pursuit or Hydro Pump completely out of the equation makes it pretty easy to just stay in & press the Sun button knowing the opponent's weather Pokemon can't do anything back.

Looking at Ninetales support move pool, Ninetales get a lot of nasty stuff but almost all of it has a huge risk factor involved be it accuracy or just being Ninetales having bad typing/bulk. Kind of a shame.

 

[Pocket]

I don't know about Spite... the Politoed can easily be packing Surf + Hydro Pump or Scald / Toxic / Hypnosis if it's defensive. Specially defensive Ttars often carry Rock Slide to take out Thundurus and Volcarona more reliably, or it may have Crunch. I think Wisp cripples Ttar well enough, and Wisp + maybe SunnyBeam would also be a good deterrent against Politoed maybe.

 

[alphatron]

Spite is too specific, only working effectively against certain pokemon while barely tickling others (unless you're running pressure stall). Grudge I can vouch for, as it has actually won me games more than once. Scizor chose not to die against Ninetales and used BP, allowing terrakion to clean house. Works better if you have a back up inducer, yes.

The amount of pokes who set up on Ninetales are seriously making me consider roar...

 

[WhiptailCrow]

Fire Gem is a poor idea, since Tales' survivability is key so Lefties works better. In any case, her Fire attacks aren't the ones that need the boost, everything else is. so using it isn't a good idea.

With this in mind, would a Grass Gem be an idea for a special attacking set? I'm wondering if it'll make Energy Ball do a good amount of damage, particularly to Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Politoed.

 

[alphatron]

Modest LO +2 energy ball has a chance to ohko 252/80 Sassytar with SR. I imagine the fire gem would flat out ohko him.

 

[BTzz]

So what will be the standard amount of speed EVs used for Ninetales now that Excadrill is banned?

Anyways, I've been experimenting with this Ninetales set to mess with choiced Tyranitar/Politoed

Ninetales (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 52 Def / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Fire Spin
- Will-O-Wisp/Toxic
- Substitute
- Disable/Protect

1) Burn/Toxic Tyranitar/Politoed, switch out
2) Hit it with Fire Spin on the switch
3) Sub up to Toxic/WoW/Fire Spin stall
4. Use Potect/Disable

•WoW is to limit the damage Tyranitar does should you need to take a hit while Toxic speeds up the stalling process againt Politoed (although they afflict the same damage for the first 3 turns)
•Protect makes it easier to then stall out for more Wow/Fire Spin damage
•Disable allows you to Disable the attacks of choice users while you watch them struggle >:D
•Wide Lens is an option to boost the accuracy of Fire Spin + your status of choice

some numbers

When using WoW + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (37.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (75%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (93.75%)

When using Toxic + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (31.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (87.5%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (125%)

To lazy to post calcs with Lefties factored in, but you get the idea. I still have no idea which status is best for this little gimmick .-.

Edit: also interested in Dream Eater on Tales to keep it healthy since sun teams tend to carry 1-2 sleep inducers.

 

[That Noob]

nice idea brizznetz. also something I use on my sun team and on the #3 peaking sun team (forgot name of creater lol) is magma storm tran. magma storm traps their starter leaving you free to kill it.

 

[JellyOs]

I've been using a cool Roar/WoW/Protect/Flamethrower set on my Sun team. It really works. I use Max HP/Sdef and it really wall alot after a WoW (Not like the above, which stalls with WoW).

Off topic: @That Noob, we seem to comment on ALOT of the same threads. Hi.

 

[Birkal]

As a rather gimmicky idea, one can run Power Herb + Nasty Plot + Solarbeam. It's incredibly risky (you have to predict the switch to their weather starter in order to Nasty Plot). But the surprise attack of Solarbeam might scare them off. Jollytales always OHKOs 252/0 Politoed with this strategy. Only SpD Hippodown would stand a chance of surviving. Tyranitar causes the most problems though; completely uninvested, it takes only 88% max under Sandstorm (Modest has a chance to OHKO with SR, however). Eek! Just a thought if you guys are looking for something new.

 

[alexwolf]

As a rather gimmicky idea, one can run Power Herb + Nasty Plot + Solarbeam. It's incredibly risky (you have to predict the switch to their weather starter in order to Nasty Plot). But the surprise attack of Solarbeam might scare them off. Jollytales always OHKOs 252/0 Politoed with this strategy. Only SpD Hippodown would stand a chance of surviving. Tyranitar causes the most problems though; completely uninvested, it takes only 88% max under Sandstorm (Modest has a chance to OHKO with SR, however). Eek! Just a thought if you guys are looking for something new.

I don't see any reason for this as Energy Ball is better.
Don't forget the fact that SolarBeam has only half of its power during any weather other than Sun so Energy ball is clearly superior without even the need to waste an itemslot.

So what will be the standard amount of speed EVs used for Ninetales now that Excadrill is banned?

Anyways, I've been experimenting with this Ninetales set to mess with choiced Tyranitar/Politoed

Ninetales (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 52 Def / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Fire Spin
- Will-O-Wisp/Toxic
- Substitute
- Disable/Protect

1) Burn/Toxic Tyranitar/Politoed, switch out
2) Hit it with Fire Spin on the switch
3) Sub up to Toxic/WoW/Fire Spin stall
4. Use Potect/Disable

•WoW is to limit the damage Tyranitar does should you need to take a hit while Toxic speeds up the stalling process againt Politoed (although they afflict the same damage for the first 3 turns)
•Protect makes it easier to then stall out for more Wow/Fire Spin damage
•Disable allows you to Disable the attacks of choice users while you watch them struggle >:D
•Wide Lens is an option to boost the accuracy of Fire Spin + your status of choice

some numbers

When using WoW + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (37.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (75%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (93.75%)

When using Toxic + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (31.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (87.5%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (125%)

To lazy to post calcs with Lefties factored in, but you get the idea. I still have no idea which status is best for this little gimmick .-.

Edit: also interested in Dream Eater on Tales to keep it healthy since sun teams tend to carry 1-2 sleep inducers.

This is so damn interesting.
Also notice how in 5th gen Fire Spin lasts for a minimum of 4 turns.

Finally T-Spikes support would be very appreciated to free the status moveslot from ninetales so that he can run an actual attack...

 

[Birkal]

I don't see any reason for this as Energy Ball is better.
Don't forget the fact that SolarBeam has only half of its power during any weather other than Sun so Energy ball is clearly superior without even the need to waste an itemslot.

Uhh... no?

Solarbeam only takes up more turns, it doesn't decrease in power. So it is still a 120 Base attack coming off a +2 SpA, which is considerably better than Energy Ball. Still not optimal, but hey, it has the potential to work.

 

[Guyguypants]

Uhh... no?

Solarbeam only takes up more turns, it doesn't decrease in power. So it is still a 120 Base attack coming off a +2 SpA, which is considerably better than Energy Ball. Still not optimal, but hey, it has the potential to work.

SolarBeam will not need a turn to charge if used during the effects of the move Sunny Day, and will only deal half of its normal damage if used during the effect of the move Rain Dance or Sandstorm.

 

[Birkal]

:O

You learn something new everyday!

And besides, it would be pretty silly to run that set on Ninetales. Its role on the team is to set up sunlight and get outta dodge, in my opinion. Especially when Chlorophyll sweepers do so well against the other weather inducers.

 

[Pocket]

I actually think that with Power Herb, even the halving effect of Sandstorm / Rain is negated, but I may be wrong. If the power isn't halved with Power Herb, I can definitely see the use in Nasty Plot + Power Herb / Solarbeam, since it does remove Hippowdon and Politoed much more efficiently, two mons that Dugtrio cannot auto-kill.

Brizznetz's set is also intriguing, but it seems like too much work for killing the opposing weather inducers.

 

[alphatron]

As a friend of mine showed me recently, trapping moves are actually pretty convenient for killing the possibility of a double switch and gaining momentum. If I needed to do more residual damage to tyranitar, while I switched to my swampert or donphan, he wouldn't be able to pull any shenanigans on me. Fire spin's accuracy isn't the best though, but I guess it can be used if you aren't running an attacking Ninetales.

Speaking of offensive Ninetales, it does exist and shouldn't be written off so easily if you desperately want the extra damage. Seeing as how most people prefer to go with the bulky route in order to live longer...

 

[jessifer]

I'm using a sun team currently and my Ninetales is the standard defensive type. As it previously ran enough speed evs (164) to outspeed Excadrill, which is banned, I'm currently trying to find out what the ev spread should be.

 

[BTzz]

I'm using a sun team currently and my Ninetales is the standard defensive type. As it previously ran enough speed evs (164) to outspeed Excadrill, which is banned, I'm currently trying to find out what the ev spread should be.

I'm currently running Calm + 40-44 Speed EVs on Tales to out-speed standard Celebi, Jirachi and all Tyanitar variants bar Scarf. That extra bulk is pretty nice now that Excadrill is gone.

As for offensive Ninetales, NP doesn't really sweep through anything with that speed while 4 attacks is kind of weak. Specs Ninetales is awsome + Overheat though, but it should really only be used on teams with no Chlorophyll sweepers like blue_star's team.

 

[Giga Punch]

So what will be the standard amount of speed EVs used for Ninetales now that Excadrill is banned?

Anyways, I've been experimenting with this Ninetales set to mess with choiced Tyranitar/Politoed

Ninetales (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 52 Def / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Fire Spin
- Will-O-Wisp/Toxic
- Substitute
- Disable/Protect

1) Burn/Toxic Tyranitar/Politoed, switch out
2) Hit it with Fire Spin on the switch
3) Sub up to Toxic/WoW/Fire Spin stall
4. Use Potect/Disable

•WoW is to limit the damage Tyranitar does should you need to take a hit while Toxic speeds up the stalling process againt Politoed (although they afflict the same damage for the first 3 turns)
•Protect makes it easier to then stall out for more Wow/Fire Spin damage
•Disable allows you to Disable the attacks of choice users while you watch them struggle >:D
•Wide Lens is an option to boost the accuracy of Fire Spin + your status of choice

some numbers

When using WoW + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (37.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (75%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (93.75%)

When using Toxic + Fire Spin vs trapped opponent...

2 trapped turns (min) = (31.5%)
3 trapped turns = (56.25%)
4 trapped turns = (87.5%)
5 trapped turns (max) = (125%)

To lazy to post calcs with Lefties factored in, but you get the idea. I still have no idea which status is best for this little gimmick .-.

Edit: also interested in Dream Eater on Tales to keep it healthy since sun teams tend to carry 1-2 sleep inducers.

Interesting looking set you have here. It looks like it could do a decent job at killing off standard SR tyranitar and restless politoed with a bit of luck. Unless you have toxic spikes support or the like, I would say the best four moves is probably Fire Spin/WoW/Substitute/Disable. A burned tyranitar is much easier to deal with especially when they are switching tyranitar in to change the weather and already know that you have wow and likely have no real "threatening" moves for tyranitar anyway. We could factor in Stealth Rock if you want but simply put the most common (at least from what I have noticed) tyranitar of Stealth Rock/Fire Blast/Crunch/Pursuit burned isnt a threat at all. Politoed without rest or wish support are more or less in the same boat though Politoed allows you leftovers recovery and you generally know what it is going to do. Toxic/Protect I could see being a real annoyance for things like rotom-w/other non heatran fire resistances as well as a chance at a dead blissey/chansey if toxic spikes and stealth rock are down.

Regardless I do really like the ev spread and plan to give it a try later.

 

[alexwolf]

At above poster.

I tested his set and WoW,Fire Spin,Protect,Disable is definitely the way to go.
WoW is better so you can do something to many dangerous attackers that otherwise use you as setup fodder.
Also this is best utilized with T-spikes down.

If you don't have them you have to do the following:

1.Setup the weather once with Ninetales to lure their Poli/Tttar
2.Status them on the switch in and then switch out(you won't be fire spining when a Politoed can kill you with Rain boosted water moves and Ttar with Rock attacks.Even if you use the Protect-Disable combo first to disable their rock/water move they will just switch out before you can hit them with Fire Spin since you will have disabled their main move against you and they are taking status damage.)
3.Setup the weather once more and hit them on the switch in with Fire Spin.After this they will be pretty much dead.
The thing with this strategy is that it requires too much switching with Ninetales,which is not good when you are SR weak,and hoping that you perfectly predict their switch ins.
Not every player mindlessly brings his Poli/Ttar when you have Ninetales in play.
And you have to hit them on 2 switch ins,with 2 moves that have imperfect accuracy.

So there are many variables that get involved into the situation.And this makes it hard to use.
So it is better to make something else setup T-Spikes so you then only have to predict their first and only switch in to Ninetales and then gradually kill them with your combo.

Notice that all these things i am telling are not theorymon,but come from recent playtesting.

On another note i thing that the best speed mark for now is beating +70s.
Mainly for out speeding Politoed which you always should.

 

[sirndpt]

I posted these suggestions on the subjective changes thread, but I'm not too sure myself:

108 w/ neutral nature allows Tales to outspeed maxspe Politoed and Breloom, and that's all it really needs IMO.

alternatively,
16 w/ neutral to outrun non +spe-natured Toed and Breloom /
64 w/ neutral to outrun the nonexistent Jolly Scizor (also beats everyone who's trying to beat maxspe Ttar) /
196 w/ neutral to outrun maxspe Mamoswine (and Dragonite, I guess)

also, @Brizznetz, jw what does your EV spread do?