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Pokémon Noivern
- Thread starter Molk
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Don't let those "too fragile" nutters fool you.
Noivern is FERPECT for that set up. I use it all the time to stop Garchomp + Swords Dance. I actually ended a game by locking a Talonflame into an endless Swords Dance boosting spree (It was his last pokemon).
Out of pure curiosity, does anyone have any calcs for comparison of these?
Say, Choice specs noivern vs scarf flygon? (Because Flygon isn't outrunning much without it, and noivern isn't hitting that hard without specs. Noivern also doesn't need scarf to outrun much, so that calc is pretty moot.) I'm aware this is very skewed, but I don't see the point to using choice scarf flygon over noivern at all, other than better typing for reducing residual damage.
You're not outspeeding much notable targets that spec noivern wouldn't have, with the first thing to hit my mind being Talonflame (who has priority brave bird and certainly wouldn't flare blitz you), second being jolteon (I'll give you that one). Pulling off of Serebii's charts, the ONLY other notable one i can really see is Weavile, which will murder both flygon/noivern regardless with ice shard. Meanwhile, Noivern hits much harder, and outspeeds nearly the same things. This is all, of course, assuming choice sets, with scarfgon vs specs Noivern.
I guess specs Noivern can't outspeed scarfed version of other certain pokes, so there's Scarf Genesect, I guess. But this is also why Frisk is so useful, because I can actually see things like surprise scarfers coming.
U-turn unstabbed isn't scaring much. This isn't scizor choice-banding a u-turn, you're still mainly a scouting u-turn.
If Flygon isn't even carrying the scarf, then I'm even less impressed, as now it's slightly better power (assuming choice band) with much less speed. I don't see the point to choice specs flygon at all in comparison, but that doesn't seem good either.
Also, you underestimate Boomburst. That's a 140 base power move that hits through subs. It doesn't need stab to hurt.
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You're forgetting that scarf Flygon also outspeeds pretty much every dragon dancer after a boost making it a good revenge killer. Basically everything at +1 under 100 base speed is outspeeded. Frisk in no way makes up for this ability to outspeed stuff.
Flygon also has much better dual STAB in Ground/Dragon and doesn't rely on a one-use move in Draco Meteor or unreliable Hurricane to sweep with its access to Earthquake/Outrage or Dragon Claw.
This doesn't detract from the fact that both Flygon and Noivern are nowhere near good enough for OU though.
Flygon also has much better dual STAB in Ground/Dragon and doesn't rely on a one-use move in Draco Meteor or unreliable Hurricane to sweep with its access to Earthquake/Outrage or Dragon Claw.
This doesn't detract from the fact that both Flygon and Noivern are nowhere near good enough for OU though.
Boomburst does slightly less damage than Dragon Pulse from Latios. Honestly that's not terrible but not overly impressive either. And while you're able to hit behind subs, you also lose your x2 to Dragon types, while Boomburst doesn't hit anything for x2 and has one more resistance to it. Just something to keep in mind.
yes it works extremly well. noivern can use it even better then a malamar because he has pretty high speed. and no. noivern is not frail. its just that most people use him as a tank like i said. its just that even though he has the stats, the should not be a tank. his best moves just are not enough because it has no STAB while something like a talonflame outclasses him because brave bird will do more damage then a noiverns boomburst.
i have been running it aswell with a decent sucess rate.
Who uses Noivern as a tank?
have you seen the begining of the fourum? those first 2 movesets are most likely either a tankish moveset or stall breaker. plus on the battle spot, ive battled a few players who where obiosly using noivern as a tank with the choice specs and boom burst. although i destroyed them with my mega amphros/trick room team.
I don't think we're using "tank" the same way. That implies bulk, generally slower bulk with Lefties to extend longevity and take hits while pivoting. Specs Noivern is a revenge killer.
im sorry i think i just got my facts wroung. i do think that noiven is a good revenge killer though... i explained it on of my ealier comments.
Whirlwind always hits through Sub.
Probably due to Latios and Latias getting access now. They're generally just better Choice Specs users, unfortunately.
-not saying that because of my avatar-
Red Card requires Noivern to take a hit to activate, which you may guess it isn't that good at.
Really though, Noivern's most notable niche is striking Substitute users where it hurts the most. Its Special Attack is pretty lackluster but it has several powerful attacks in Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Focus Blast, and Boomburst that can send a slower foe like Kyurem-B, Garchomp, or Trevenant scurrying and abandoning its Sub, or deter them from setting one up altogether. If the target is too bulky to take out, Noivern can use Switcheroo and cripple it, so the opponent likely still has to drop its Sub while being neutered for the rest of the match. Super Fang can also slice through Sub users in the same fashion.
I am currently using the following set for wifi and i totaly love it:
Noivern @ Life Orb
Timid
Frisk
252 sp.att 252 spe 4 def
Super Fang
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower
Taunt
Most opponents take so much dmg while trying to find out how to handle it, its just amazing. Bring it in on something it can force out and hit the switch in with super fang. From there it depends on the poke ur opponent brought in. Steeltypes are melted by Flamethrower and only very dedicated special walls can take a combination of super fang + meteor, and even if they can take it, it doesnt help them much most of the time when their healing and status moves are blocked by taunt. Its also great at revenge killing since there are only very few pokes that can outspeed it without a scarf (and u see the scarf with frisk) and Draco Meteor is still powerful enough to ohko almost every offensiv poke with some prior dmg.
Many ppl here say that its frail but from my experience thats not true at all. Even with life orb it can easily take 1 or 2 neutral hits and even more if it resists them. 85/80/80 are very solid defensive stats for such a fast and offensive pokemon.
The only real counters to it are some fairy types like azu and sylveon who dont take much from flamethrower so u cant finish them off even after a super fang. Boomburst is realy missing here :(
Luckily sylveon is rare and azu is perfectly handled by rotom-w.
Noivern @ Life Orb
Timid
Frisk
252 sp.att 252 spe 4 def
Super Fang
Draco Meteor
Flamethrower
Taunt
Most opponents take so much dmg while trying to find out how to handle it, its just amazing. Bring it in on something it can force out and hit the switch in with super fang. From there it depends on the poke ur opponent brought in. Steeltypes are melted by Flamethrower and only very dedicated special walls can take a combination of super fang + meteor, and even if they can take it, it doesnt help them much most of the time when their healing and status moves are blocked by taunt. Its also great at revenge killing since there are only very few pokes that can outspeed it without a scarf (and u see the scarf with frisk) and Draco Meteor is still powerful enough to ohko almost every offensiv poke with some prior dmg.
Many ppl here say that its frail but from my experience thats not true at all. Even with life orb it can easily take 1 or 2 neutral hits and even more if it resists them. 85/80/80 are very solid defensive stats for such a fast and offensive pokemon.
The only real counters to it are some fairy types like azu and sylveon who dont take much from flamethrower so u cant finish them off even after a super fang. Boomburst is realy missing here :(
Luckily sylveon is rare and azu is perfectly handled by rotom-w.
I think Noivern can do decently on Rotation Battles, and I'll try it out after breeding a few more Pokemon. Infiltrator hits through subs, and Specs Hurricane sounds like it'll go well with Gravity support. Consider that Tornadus is Pokebank only, and hard to get for many Wifi battlers (no Showdown ladder for Rotation).
Has anyone toyed around with a focus sash Noivern? I'm thinking a decent set would be Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/Taunt/Tailwind or U-Turn, might be a decent anti-lead, isn't crippled by too many leads except for Mamoswine, and has enough power in draco meteor to function well later on.
The problem is that while Noivern's defensives could encourage such a set, he really isn't the kind of pokemon to be using Focus Sash.
I would highly recommend Choice Specs, he's fast enough already to not need scarf and Draco Meteor spec'd can seriously hurt.
That and Switcherooing Choice Specs onto a guy who just used rest is the greatest thing ever.
the niche on this guy is being able to infiltrator switcheroo people so I don't know why you would run frisk. Plenty of better OU trick/switcheroo users if that's all you want. Being able to switcheroo some one behind a sub that is about to set up on the other hand is amazing and can prevent lost games, also cannot be done by many.
Here is the thing though. They are both great abilities.
Frisk allows you to spot what the enemy is doing and what they may attempt to do at the start. Frisk can grant quite a bit more as to what the opponent might do and get you a vantage point.
Infiltrator has it's uses, I fully understand, but that is why I run Boomburst, the sound attack hits through anyway and Substitutes are few and far between from my experience.
Hurricane in the rain? What about Moonlight and Flamethrower in the sun? Or is that inferior?
I've been peeping in here for a while, and I am liking the the idea of anti-lead Noivern with Magic Bounce Espeon as a teammate. What do you think of this:
Noivern @ Choice Specs/Life Orb | Frisk
Timid
4 Def, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- U Turn
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
Espeon @ Assault Vest | Magic Bounce
Timid
4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Psychic/Hidden Power/Quick Attack
Some theory moning:
Noivern vs. Galvantula
Frisk detects a focus fash
Noivern U Turns on Galvantula into Espeon to reflect the Sticky Web or survive either STAB attack, breaking its sash. Espeon can threaten it with Psyshock.
OR
Frisks detects any item bar Choice Scarf and threatens it with Flamethrower.
Noivern vs. Greninja
Frisk detects a focus sash
Noivern U Turns on Greninja into Espeon to reflect the Taunt/Spikes or absorb the ice beam. Dark Pulse 2HKOs with full SpA investment, with or without life orb, so it must be wary of that. If Espeon switches in on the ice beam, it can retaliate with Dazzling Gleam on dark-type Greninja after Dark Pulse, but flinchax will ruin it.
OR
Frisk detects a Life Orb
Noivern threatens Greninja with Specs Boomburst.
Noivern vs. Smeargle
Frisk detects a focus sash
Noivern U Turns to Espeon, breaking the sash, and Espeon can reflect status and hazards, forcing a switch.
End theory moning
Maybe none of it is viable because there's either something out there who craps on it or....yeah.
I can think of a ProtectPassing Scolipede with Rock Slide. If Noivern runs Life Orb instead of Choice Specs, I think it could make room for taunt if the rest of the team can't shut it down.
With 14 pages, I'm still fighting over Frisk and Infiltrator myself.
For a two-man core, what about Noivern and Mega Mawile? They do cover each other's weaknesses.
Support approach for Noivern:
Noivern @ Leftovers | Infiltrator
IVs: 0 if you don't carry U Turn
Timid
230 HP, 36 SpA ,252 Spe
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Super Fang
- U Turn/Boomburst/Draco Meteor/Flamethrower
The 230 HP makes Noivern's HP stat a multiple of 16, giving Leftovers +1, but not at level 50. 36 SpA Flamethrower always pushes physically defensive Skarmort to Sturdy while having a 50% chance to OHKO 252 HP/4 SpD Scizor without SR, but Mega Scizor is a different story (18.8% chance to OHKO 252 HP/4 SpD WITH SR). It always 2HKOs physically defensive Ferrothorn and OHKOs physically defensive Forretress while having a 45.3% chance to 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn after leftovers, 95.3% chance with SR.
Taunt can grant some setup opportunities for Mawile to use Swords Dance.
Tailwind is the big boom of this set, as it can give Mawile a few turns of double speed, which is scary.
Super Fang weakens some physical walls for Mawile, and the last slot is almost filler. You could even tack on Roost for Noivern if you feel comfortable with it.
The only thing with this set is these two (support Noivern and Mawile) lose to Gliscor, so you could either pack a teammate for the flyscorpion or run Noivern's more offensive approach in this core:
Noivern @ Life Orb | Infiltrator
IVs: 29 HP, 0 Atk
Timid
252 SpA, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Tailwind
- Taunt/Boomburst
- Flamethrower
I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned that 29 IVs and 0 EVs of HP rounds down Life Orb recoil, so that's good. That also holds true at lv50 (reaching a HP stat of 159).
Life Orb Draco Meteor approximately has a 75% chance to OHKO standard (252 HP 184 Def 72 Speed, right?) Gliscor after Substitute and Poison Heal, guaranteed after SR, but don't count on SR saving you with Gliscor too much.
I'm really looking at Tailwind's potential to assist Mawile with some cleaning. How viable is it? I think it can be if Noivern comes in on the right Pokémon, which is further helped with Taunt. If not Taunt, Boomburst is there for some reliable damage. Flamethrower is for the steels who resist the Steel/Fairy STAB and would rather use a status move than be hit with Sucker Punch.
Fire types also resist Steel/Fairy STAB....now the call for a third teammate is made.
What do you all think?
I've been peeping in here for a while, and I am liking the the idea of anti-lead Noivern with Magic Bounce Espeon as a teammate. What do you think of this:
Noivern @ Choice Specs/Life Orb | Frisk
Timid
4 Def, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- U Turn
- Boomburst
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
Espeon @ Assault Vest | Magic Bounce
Timid
4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot/Psychic/Hidden Power/Quick Attack
Some theory moning:
Noivern vs. Galvantula
Frisk detects a focus fash
Noivern U Turns on Galvantula into Espeon to reflect the Sticky Web or survive either STAB attack, breaking its sash. Espeon can threaten it with Psyshock.
OR
Frisks detects any item bar Choice Scarf and threatens it with Flamethrower.
Noivern vs. Greninja
Frisk detects a focus sash
Noivern U Turns on Greninja into Espeon to reflect the Taunt/Spikes or absorb the ice beam. Dark Pulse 2HKOs with full SpA investment, with or without life orb, so it must be wary of that. If Espeon switches in on the ice beam, it can retaliate with Dazzling Gleam on dark-type Greninja after Dark Pulse, but flinchax will ruin it.
OR
Frisk detects a Life Orb
Noivern threatens Greninja with Specs Boomburst.
Noivern vs. Smeargle
Frisk detects a focus sash
Noivern U Turns to Espeon, breaking the sash, and Espeon can reflect status and hazards, forcing a switch.
End theory moning
Maybe none of it is viable because there's either something out there who craps on it or....yeah.
I can think of a ProtectPassing Scolipede with Rock Slide. If Noivern runs Life Orb instead of Choice Specs, I think it could make room for taunt if the rest of the team can't shut it down.
With 14 pages, I'm still fighting over Frisk and Infiltrator myself.
For a two-man core, what about Noivern and Mega Mawile? They do cover each other's weaknesses.
Support approach for Noivern:
Noivern @ Leftovers | Infiltrator
IVs: 0 if you don't carry U Turn
Timid
230 HP, 36 SpA ,252 Spe
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Super Fang
- U Turn/Boomburst/Draco Meteor/Flamethrower
The 230 HP makes Noivern's HP stat a multiple of 16, giving Leftovers +1, but not at level 50. 36 SpA Flamethrower always pushes physically defensive Skarmort to Sturdy while having a 50% chance to OHKO 252 HP/4 SpD Scizor without SR, but Mega Scizor is a different story (18.8% chance to OHKO 252 HP/4 SpD WITH SR). It always 2HKOs physically defensive Ferrothorn and OHKOs physically defensive Forretress while having a 45.3% chance to 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn after leftovers, 95.3% chance with SR.
Taunt can grant some setup opportunities for Mawile to use Swords Dance.
Tailwind is the big boom of this set, as it can give Mawile a few turns of double speed, which is scary.
Super Fang weakens some physical walls for Mawile, and the last slot is almost filler. You could even tack on Roost for Noivern if you feel comfortable with it.
The only thing with this set is these two (support Noivern and Mawile) lose to Gliscor, so you could either pack a teammate for the flyscorpion or run Noivern's more offensive approach in this core:
Noivern @ Life Orb | Infiltrator
IVs: 29 HP, 0 Atk
Timid
252 SpA, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Tailwind
- Taunt/Boomburst
- Flamethrower
I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned that 29 IVs and 0 EVs of HP rounds down Life Orb recoil, so that's good. That also holds true at lv50 (reaching a HP stat of 159).
Life Orb Draco Meteor approximately has a 75% chance to OHKO standard (252 HP 184 Def 72 Speed, right?) Gliscor after Substitute and Poison Heal, guaranteed after SR, but don't count on SR saving you with Gliscor too much.
I'm really looking at Tailwind's potential to assist Mawile with some cleaning. How viable is it? I think it can be if Noivern comes in on the right Pokémon, which is further helped with Taunt. If not Taunt, Boomburst is there for some reliable damage. Flamethrower is for the steels who resist the Steel/Fairy STAB and would rather use a status move than be hit with Sucker Punch.
Fire types also resist Steel/Fairy STAB....now the call for a third teammate is made.
What do you all think?
I personally use Noivern, Espeon, and Mega Mawile on the same team (the other three are my own preference and are sub-optimal, don't ask).
Anti-lead/revenge-killer Noivern, Calm Mind Leftovers Espeon, and standard Mega Mawile.
I personally prefer Infiltrator because I can break Substitutes since no one else on my team can. However, a lot of people say that since you have Boomburst, you could use Frisk instead since Boomburst hits past Subs.
Since I use Noivern for anti-lead into revenge-killer after, I prefer Choice Specs so that Draco Meteor does 100% on almost anything not bulky, and still puts a decent dent on things with special defense. I can see where Life Orb will be good, especially if you're using U-Turn as well, but I already use Life Orb on someone else.
I've never messed around with support Noivern, so I can't comment on that.
Anti-lead/revenge-killer Noivern, Calm Mind Leftovers Espeon, and standard Mega Mawile.
I personally prefer Infiltrator because I can break Substitutes since no one else on my team can. However, a lot of people say that since you have Boomburst, you could use Frisk instead since Boomburst hits past Subs.
Since I use Noivern for anti-lead into revenge-killer after, I prefer Choice Specs so that Draco Meteor does 100% on almost anything not bulky, and still puts a decent dent on things with special defense. I can see where Life Orb will be good, especially if you're using U-Turn as well, but I already use Life Orb on someone else.
I've never messed around with support Noivern, so I can't comment on that.
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