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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

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Just wondering aloud, are we going to wait for the November statistics to come out before we vote? It seems like that logical thing to do, since the more information we have, the better. The initial Skymin hype has almost completely worn off by now, I'd say, so the November numbers are probably more accurate than the October numbers. And I suspect that it'll be quite a bit lower than #10. I see it less and less often these days, and the only really good battler I remember seeing use it lately was Justinawe....
 
I have no idea why Skymin's usage would affect its uber status or how you vote for it as an uber....
 
reachzero said:
Just wondering aloud, are we going to wait for the November statistics to come out before we vote? It seems like that logical thing to do, since the more information we have, the better. The initial Skymin hype has almost completely worn off by now, I'd say, so the November numbers are probably more accurate than the October numbers. And I suspect that it'll be quite a bit lower than #10. I see it less and less often these days, and the only really good battler I remember seeing use it lately was Justinawe....
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I disagree, the hype has now died down, but remember the October statistics, they were released during November a few days in IIRC the Skymin hype was still around then, so at least _some_ of the statistics will be slightly biased towards it as it was about Mid November that the better players realised either they didnt want to use it or _relying_ themselves on the luck was silly. It can annoy the heel out of you versus you, but when trying to ladder, Skymin as a "long term investment" is a bad idea, if you become dependant on its luck you will lose eventually, even if you do hax through a couple of battles.
 
Hmph, sucks that I didn't get to the point where I could vote, otherwise, there'd be one more OU vote ;_;. Anyway, I've seen people cast their vote for 'Uber' because of Skymin's tendancy to outluck your team (not on occasion) and because of the fact that their team was beaten by a few of them. I've also seen people mention the SubSeed set which isn't really a problem to a team that's prepared for it. First off, Skymin has it use two of its slots and drap two attacking moves out of its shallow movepool (Grass gets horrid coverage in OU :x). Seed Flare + Earth Power is stopped by other Grass types and Zapdos. Seed Flare + Air Slash is stopped by most Steels, Zapdos, Tentacruel (to an extent) and Toxicroak. Earth Power + Air Slash gives a numerous amount of things a better chance of survival (Blissey, Zapdos, etc.). Now, onto the Life Orb set; Shaymin-S's Stealth Rock weakness will wear it down while the Life Orb and its somwhat crappy coverage keeps it from stay in long. Life Orb with Substitute is a bit redundant as you'll lose 25% to Stealth Rock and Substitute while Skymin loses 10% to Life Orb, too. Without a Life Orb, Skymin loses the power it needs.

Basically, Skymin isn't a threat unless your opponent is extremely lucky during that battle or, if you just suck at team building <_<.

Just trying to get some of the conversation from the voting thread in here >_>...
 
I'm honestly stunned that the vote is this close, after all, though from what I've seen, the uber voters seems to be really saying "I got haxed at one point or another by him" or "there shouldn't be more luck", to which I'm fairly disappointed with. I honestly think that the deviation requirements should be made lower so that we get more people who play over a set period of time, rather than people who ladder like crazy for one or two hours and don't see the big picture.
 
I'm not as surprised that the vote is this close, a lot of Ubers voters surfaced late in the process, but I am disappointed by a lot of the reasons being given. IMO a pokemon should be voted Uber only if it is too strong in some way for OU. Several voters have publicly said "I consider Skymin Uber not because it is too strong for OU, but because it encourages luck over skill". It's one thing to vote Skymin Uber if you think it really is that powerful. We can argue about that from here until eternity. But to ban Skymin even when you admit that it is not too strong for OU? That makes no sense to me.
 
I voted OU of course, but I would not ridicule that arguement reach.

It's a game played by everyone. If people don't want it around, rather if people are too annoyed by hax to endure a metagame with it, what's so wrong about banning it? Obviously there were 44 people (so far) who don't think it's too annoying to overlook the fact it sucks.
 
FiveKRunner said:
If you're upset about this sort of reasoning then would you vote to unban Double Team and OHKO moves?
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I see Skymin and DT/OHKOs as fundamentally different issues, because one contributes to the metagame, and one does not. Skymin has a clear, useful niche in the metagame. Evasion and OHKO moves have no such niche, they exist only to hax. To reverse the question somewhat, if you follow that sort of reasoning (banning anything that promotes luck over skill) would you vote Absol Uber or even consider it a suspect? We have a history of judging pokemon based on effectiveness. No pokemon currently existing exists only to hax, as evasion and OHKOs do.

Edit: I should mention that for the sake of logical consistency, I support banning Scope Lens, King's Rock, Brightpowder, and Razor Claw. And any other items that I missed that exist only for the sake of hax.
 
I think it's a smogon trend. If something is suspicious enough to be a suspect, it HAS to be voted out.

It sucks.
 
reachzero said:
I see Skymin and DT/OHKOs as fundamentally different issues, because one contributes to the metagame, and one does not. Skymin has a clear, useful niche in the metagame. Evasion and OHKO moves have no such niche, they exist only to hax. To reverse the question somewhat, if you follow that sort of reasoning (banning anything that promotes luck over skill) would you vote Absol Uber or even consider it a suspect? We have a history of judging pokemon based on effectiveness. No pokemon currently existing exists only to hax, as evasion and OHKOs do.
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Alot of things don't have useful niches in the metagame. Have you ever had someone use Sweet Scent against you? That's not banned.

When you get Air Slashed by a Skymin, there's a 60% chance that you'll flinch. When someone uses Double Team, there's a 33% chance that your attack will miss. I'd personally rather have them use Double Team, which not only doesn't do damage but forces them to consume what could be a useful moveslot.

As far as I'm concerned, Skymin contributes just as much, if not more, hax to the metagame than DT/OHKO would.
 
FiveKRunner said:
Alot of things don't have useful niches in the metagame. Have you ever had someone use Sweet Scent against you? That's not banned.

When you get Air Slashed by a Togekiss, there's a 60% chance that you'll flinch and a 30% chance of paralysis. When someone uses Double Team, there's a 33% chance that your attack will miss. I'd personally rather have them use Double Team, which not only doesn't do damage but forces them to consume what could be a useful moveslot.

As far as I'm concerned, Togekiss contributes just as much, if not more, hax to the metagame than DT/OHKO would.
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Fixed.
 
based purely on luck-based annoyance, I'd say Machamp is without a doubt the #1 bitch.

For instance Gyara and Salamence could both 2hko it, resit its stab and after intimidate would survive a stone edge too. However thanks to that damn dynamic punch their odds of winning against machamp 1 v. 1 is more like a 50-50 if anything, much less if they are trying to "counter" machamp.
 
FiveKRunner said:
Thanks for supporting what I'm saying by pointing out that there are multiple things, not just Skymin, that involve more luck than Double Team and OHKO moves would.
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Erm, no. As we've said earlier, DTs and OHKOs exist to promote luck, and nothing else. The same can not be said of Skymin and Togekiss, as they are Pokemon who have their own niches (the fact that some moves do not have niches since they suck so much is purely irrelevant) and do things other than just luck spam.
 
Kay said:
Erm, no. As we've said earlier, DTs and OHKOs exist to promote luck, and nothing else. The same can not be said of Skymin and Togekiss, as they are Pokemon who have their own niches (the fact that some moves do not have niches since they suck so much is purely irrelevant) and do things other than just luck spam.
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The fact that Togekiss can abuse Thunder Wave + Serene Grace + Air Slash promotes more luck than Double Team. There is no denying that these Pokemon can and will abuse more luck than the currently banned hax moves.

If you're taking the stance that things that promote luck, and nothing else, should be banned, then ban Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Serene Grace, hax items, high CH attacks, and high CH abilities. They promote luck. I don't see why only a few things get picked out for banning where there are multiple things in this game that involve even more luck than DT and OHKO moves would if they were allowed.
 
*sigh* I'm just disappointed that people choose luck as the only reason to ban Skymin. Frankly, my opnion still stands and it could go either way for me. If Skymin becomes Uber, no more having to prepare for luck based loses by it. If it stays OU, Latias, during testing would have nice time with it, giving it another thing to counter in OU... then again, I really wasn't concerned about Skymin, I just wanted the Lati twins to hurry up and be tested T_T...

FiveKRunner said:
As far as I'm concerned, Skymin contributes just as much, if not more, hax to the metagame than DT/OHKO would.
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Wait... what the fuck are you talking about? Double Team can be used on any Pokemon that learns the TM. If used once, your opponent would have a 30%(?) chance of missing. If used more, that chance will rise again and again. Also, have you considered how moves that would otherwise eliminate Double Team's boost can miss? With Skymin, the chance of you actually haxing out your opponent drops as it attacks.

OHKO moves take down any Pokemon in one hit that aren't immune to it, giving Lock On Smeargle some type of popularity. However, there's only a 30% chance of that happening, yet, it's still enough. Imagine Hypnosis before Platinum. Imagine how many times you would miss with it, then, think about those misses being an OHKO on that Hypnosis user. That's essentially an OHKO move, as you use it, you'll eventually hit, taking down something that would have otherwise had a low chance of being taken down (like a Jirachi with 6 Calm Minds up). With Skymin... again, the more you attack with haxing moves, the less chance you have of haxing out your opponent.
 
I'm not 100% sure that hax should be the main reason that a pokemon should be moved into Ubers, nor it's usage stats. I have never used Shaymin-S myself, but i have seen it in play from other battles i've watched, or opponents who have used it against me. Around 95% of them have revolved around the special defense drop and flinch hax.

If it is going to stay in OU (and by looking in the polls it seems likely) the main reasons being it being weak to stealth rocks, 4x weak to ice, poor defenses etc. These are a few reasons why it would stay OU

I don't know, if I was allowed a vote i would vote Uber.
 
FiveKRunner said:
The fact that Togekiss can abuse Thunder Wave + Serene Grace + Air Slash promotes more luck than Double Team. There is no denying that these Pokemon can and will abuse more luck than the currently banned hax moves.

If you're taking the stance that things that promote luck, and nothing else, should be banned, then ban Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Serene Grace, hax items, high CH attacks, and high CH abilities. They promote luck. I don't see why only a few things get picked out for banning where there are multiple things in this game that involve even more luck than DT and OHKO moves would if they were allowed.
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Part of this is actually a valid and interesting point. If we banned Sand Veil Gliscor while leaving Hyper Cutter Gliscor legal, for example, how would the metagame be hurt? I don't see how it would be hurt in any way. In my opinion, it would be a good ban, since it eliminates unnecessary hax. On the other hand, banning Stone Edge or Serene Grace Jirachi (the only kind) would be a poor ban, since each fills a definite niche in the metagame. It is not "gratuitous" hax like Sand Veil. We can wish that Jirachi did not have Serene Grace, but it has no other possible ability. I believe that hax is a necessary evil that should be eliminated when it is gratuitous, but tolerated when removing it removes a contributor from the metagame. I do not want to eliminate Skymin (which I see as a badly needed threat to suicide leads and bulky waters) any more than I want to eliminate Jirachi or Togekiss. Again, judge OU vs. Uber on power/usefulness, not on a rather arbitrary picture of how much hax is too much hax.
 
reachzero said:
Part of this is actually a valid and interesting point. If we banned Sand Veil Gliscor while leaving Hyper Cutter Gliscor legal, for example, how would the metagame be hurt? I don't see how it would be hurt in any way. In my opinion, it would be a good ban, since it eliminates unnecessary hax. On the other hand, banning Stone Edge or Serene Grace Jirachi (the only kind) would be a poor ban, since each fills a definite niche in the metagame. It is not "gratuitous" hax like Sand Veil. We can wish that Jirachi did not have Serene Grace, but it has no other possible ability. I believe that hax is a necessary evil that should be eliminated when it is gratuitous, but tolerated when removing it removes a contributor from the metagame. I do not want to eliminate Skymin (which I see as a badly needed threat to suicide leads and bulky waters) any more than I want to eliminate Jirachi or Togekiss. Again, judge OU vs. Uber on power/usefulness, not on a rather arbitrary picture of how much hax is too much hax.
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quoted for truth! I think if you would ban Skymin, you should have a better reason than hax alone. (On a side note games like chess have no hax, you won't see someone make a wrong move then scream HAX! at the top of their voice).

Other possible reasons for banning Skymin: Base 127 + Serene Grace + STABed Air Slash & Seed Flare +A reasonable Special Attack Stat. Theres there reason, a combination of those elements.
 
Its seems to be leaning toward uber at the moment, but i dont c why people dont just make a counter, its not that hard seriously, theres just people who don't want to change the metagame, so they vote stuff out I mean seriosuly set up sr, and send in a special wall, its not tht hard, plus seed flare runs out quick, people are just too lazy for change
 
i think the main difference between double team/minimize & brightpowder/lax incense on the one hand and serene grace, snow cloak, sand veil etc. on the other is that the hax abilities are truncated to specific pokemon that use hax in very specific ways...

double team and the hax items can be used by literally every fully-evolved pokemon (barring wobbuffet i think doesn't learn double team).

couple double team and brightpowder with a pokemon that has an evasion ability, king's rock on shaymin-s, or razor claw on absol and then you see the real problem.

unbanning hax moves and items would undoubtedly cause a big problem with pokemon that already have luck on their side and this result should be taken into account if you wish to unban them.
 
King's Rock on Skymin wouldn't make a difference. King's Rock only adds flinch to attacks that don't have secondary effects.
 
I think the point he was making, is that theres a difference between naturally occuring hax which comes from the characteristics of a poke, and artificial hax which can be added with an item or a move.
 
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