Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[dr00]

I think the point he was making, is that theres a difference between naturally occuring hax which comes from the characteristics of a poke, and artificial hax which can be added with an item or a move.

do you mean me?


i did mention that, but my main point was a pokemon with naturally occuring hax and artificial hax is a whole other thing altogether to be considered.

amount of hax of a togekiss with thunder wave and air slash is a bit different from the same togekiss now with double team and brightpowder.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Now that I've actually tried this thing out (frankly, the first time I've tried anything other than stall).
I frankly don't get the luck argument. This thing is a terrible flincher, and at this point it's a strategy I only resort to when I'm completely desperate (and it's like the intentional fouling that basketball teams do when they're losing - never really works enough). It is way too frail for an effective strategy - if I don't get the flinch, the thing's dead. It is a much better Poke than I admit I thought it was - it has good speed and attack, but honestly isn't that threatening in that regard, as my Luke is generally the one who ends up cleaning the other team out, as Grass after all, is a shitty attacking type.
So yeah, I find the luck argument to be terrible. Togekiss is much, much better at doing that job, thanks to the fact that it can actually take a couple of hits and roost them off.

 

[Tleilax]

So yeah, I find the luck argument to be terrible. Togekiss is much, much better at doing that job, thanks to the fact that it can actually take a couple of hits and roost them off.

Not only can it take hits better, it has Thunder Wave to make it even less likely that you attack. It cripples something for the rest of the match, and then use it to make your odds of getting a hit off incredibly low. People seem to look at Skymin's speed and assume it's worse than Togekiss, and that reeks of inexperience.

I really wish I had found the time around work and school to ladder up. I really have no stake in Skymin, since I found it underwhelming and don't use it, but I find no reason for it to be banned. People claiming that it should be banned because it apparently flinched them 12 times in a row is ridiculous. It's like banning Honchkrow because it uses Super Luck and gets 4 crits in a row. Some even admitted they didn't even use the thing, or change their teams to accommodate it. Why should people who don't give enough of a shit to actually test be allowed to determine the flow of the metagame. I know it's fair and all, but it frustrates me. With the Suspect Ladder, we had people voting who actually cared and put effort into it.

 

[Kay [Old]]

I really wish I had found the time around work and school to ladder up. I really have no stake in Skymin, since I found it underwhelming and don't use it, but I find no reason for it to be banned. People claiming that it should be banned because it apparently flinched them 12 times in a row is ridiculous. It's like banning Honchkrow because it uses Super Luck and gets 4 crits in a row. Some even admitted they didn't even use the thing, or change their teams to accommodate it. Why should people who don't give enough of a shit to actually test be allowed to determine the flow of the metagame. I know it's fair and all, but it frustrates me. With the Suspect Ladder, we had people voting who actually cared and put effort into it.

I remember during the first Deoxys vote in how you had to explain your reasons for voting it uber or OU and if people like Jumpman found it ridiculous, the vote didn't count. I think that something like that should be reimplemented.

 

[cim]

I remember during the first Deoxys vote in how you had to explain your reasons for voting it uber or OU and if people like Jumpman found it ridiculous, the vote didn't count. I think that something like that should be reimplemented.

I completely agree. Bold Voting may be a bitch and messy, but if we're seriously going to have Uber votes because Nintendo bans it or because it once flinched someone's +6 CM Jirachi to death (the odds of the situation were 50 times less than a CH) or because they don't like it in OU or are unwilling to modify their team, then there's no hope for the Suspect Test.

Seriously, if Tyranitar or Heatran didn't exist until a month before they were to be voted on, people would vote them Uber too.

 

[lilyhollow]

I completely agree. Bold Voting may be a bitch and messy, but if we're seriously going to have Uber votes because Nintendo bans it or because it once flinched someone's +6 CM Jirachi to death (the odds of the situation were 50 times less than a CH) or because they don't like it in OU or are unwilling to modify their team, then there's no hope for the Suspect Test.

Seriously, if Tyranitar or Heatran didn't exist until a month before they were to be voted on, people would vote them Uber too.

I agree with all of this 100%.

you took me out of your sig chris but I must say I approve of the change

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Yeah, I agree too. Come to think of it, Skymin being labeled as suspect was more a hype-product than anything. Quite frankly, if it existed since early D/P, we would not have it as suspect nowadays, just like people stopped praising Electivire a little after the game's release.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I agree completely with Chris. The current process means anyone who is not a complete idiot at the game and plays regularly can vote. Maybe then we can have a fair vote without reasons like you've highlighted.

 

[Silent Storm]

I find it quite sad that a pokemon that doesn't deserve to be UBER is going to be sent there because the majority are unwilling to change their teams, but it can't helped, I just hope that this this doesn't happen when Lati@s is up for voting.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Seriously, if Tyranitar or Heatran didn't exist until a month before they were to be voted on, people would vote them Uber too.

Frankly, Skymin is from my perspective a better Alakazam. Alakazam for ubers :P

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I completely agree. Bold Voting may be a bitch and messy, but if we're seriously going to have Uber votes because Nintendo bans it or because it once flinched someone's +6 CM Jirachi to death (the odds of the situation were 50 times less than a CH) or because they don't like it in OU or are unwilling to modify their team, then there's no hope for the Suspect Test.

Agreed that the current system is flawed but the problem with the "only votes with good reasons count" process is the subjectivity of deciding which reasons are "good enough". You'd need an unbiased person to count up the votes, which is harder to find than one might imagine.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Agreed that the current system is flawed but the problem with the "only votes with good reasons count" process is the subjectivity of deciding which reasons are "good enough". You'd need an unbiased person to count up the votes, which is harder to find than one might imagine.

Well, at least having a way too weed out votes like the one in chris' sig would do wonders.

 

[Sudo]

Agreed that the current system is flawed but the problem with the "only votes with good reasons count" process is the subjectivity of deciding which reasons are "good enough". You'd need an unbiased person to count up the votes, which is harder to find than one might imagine.

It's not only the issue of finding an unbiased judge. People could simply copy the reasoning of more prominent battlers to make their vote count but still keep their arbitrary reasoning undercover.

 

[reachzero]

Believe it or not, I completely disagree. Pokemon is meant to be fun. I may be horribly disappointed with the quality of the voters, but I do believe that they should have the right to vote. The people who actually play deserve the right to make the decisions, not just the people who are good writers. This process is much better for the game than bold voting, IMO, I just wish the requirements to be met were a little stricter.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In my opinion, the problem definitely was in how we set up the test this time. Too many voters who are just pretty crappy guys who happen to spend some time laddering. Right now we're discussing some checks over the period and starting with new accounts just for the test. Hopefully this will weed out some of the crap.

too many posters on BOTH sides saying "wow, I can't believe this account qualified when I barely did anything with it!" >>

 

[cim]

The solution isn't stricter requirements. If anything this test is proof that there's no correlation between Shoddy ladder rank and a fundamental understanding of Smogon's philosophy and tiers. Or intelligence.

The requirements should only be there to prove you played the game, not that you were good at it. If a Pokémon were truly broken, games could come down to speed ties or luck anyway.

As for the copying issue, if you can rewrite an argument in your own words and add a little of your experience to it then I don't see that much of a problem. We could also, better yet, PM applications to vote that include reasoning so that if you have one fundamentally against Smogon's philosophy or based on bullshit things like this instance of hax that's 50 times less likely than a Heatran CH Fire Blast, then you don't get to vote.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Seriously, if Tyranitar or Heatran didn't exist until a month before they were to be voted on, people would vote them Uber too.

I'm a bit late to replying to this but, that statement is entirely true >_>.

Mainly, the reason people have been voting Skymin Uber and whatnot don't want to take the chances of experiencing what Garchomp was doing- nearly a year of his bullshit upon the OU metagame. Frankly, people want Skymin in Ubers because they were battling it once and were outlucked. Others only know what Skymin is like on paper, by that, I mean people say "its base 120 Speed and Serene Grace combined with Seed Flare and Air Slash are Uber" or, "It has Earth Power so most of its counters can't switch in safely" or the always funny, "It beats a 6 CM Jirachi with Air Slash flinches and Jirachi wasn't holding Leftovers for some odd reason :(". From those 3 common quotes come the "reasons" that most people feel that Skymin is Uber.

Okay, now, imagine if you were meeting Tyranitar for the first time in your life (in the metagame, of course... unless dinosaurs still exist O_O). Imagine if you saw its movepool and stats for the first time, too. Now, some people will say, "it's way too slow and Fighting attacks can handle it" while others will counter that saying, "But, it gets Dragon Dance and Rock Polish to outspeed most of those Pokemon and can OHKO most of them too. It also has Curse and a Sandstorm Special Defense boost to hide behind, too. This thing is Uber >:[!!!!". Can't the same thing apply to what Skymin does? While some may say, "Ice Shard users can easily OHKO it and let's not forget that Skymin will almost always suffer from the 4 slot syndrome" others will say, "But, it gets Serene Grace, Air Slash, Earth Power a high base Speed, Subtitute, Leech Seed, a high base Special Attack and a psuedo Nasty Plot to use at will"... apparently, Seed Flare is always being used on the switch, will always get the Special Defense drop and has a base PP of 15, then, Air Slash is hitting everything for either neutral or Super Effective will always flinch Skymin's target while it has Earth Power, Substitute, Hidden Power Ice and Leech Seed in the last moveslot, too. Oh and Skymin's always holding a Life Orb, Yache Berry, Wide Lens, King Rock and Leftovers while it's attacking, too.

It seems as if everyone's including every type of way to make Skymin Uber in their reasoning and it's all in one set. Besides, the most common Skymin set is usually a Life Orb set or a Substitute/Leftovers/Attacking set, I honestly don't know where everyone's getting SubSeed from <_<.

 

[MetaNite]

Skymin however has no sure-fire counter, while Heatran (bulky waters, Moltres) and Tyranitar (Hariyama) do. The SubSeed set can kill Blissey, and Choice Specs Skymin can too if Blissey's only weapon is Seismic Toss. Skymin has more than 1 way to deal with Blissey. My biggest fear is the previously mentioned Specs set. It just rapes and rapes.

Also, additional counters (Moltres) can easily get killed with a simple Air Slash flinch. Skymin abuses its speed and Serene Grace unlike Garchomp who utilizes Sword Dance and great attack.

I have no doubt people vote it Uber because of the luck factor. Similiarly to Evasion Clause, it relies heavily on luck.

Other reasons I believe it to be Uber is how it changes the metagame. New fasted grass type puts Sceptile to shame, forces Heatran to run max speed, makes priority moves abundant throwing off most Berry strategies (it doesn't do this alone though). Outspeeding what wasn't meant to be outsped, as I see it.

It can fit in both areas, OU and Uber. But it's not just its power, but how it alters the metagame.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

As good as Hariyama is at countering Tyranitar, its BL status leads me to believe that most people are using non-sure-fire counters to deal with Tyranitar. But I may be going out on a limb with that observation. Salamence, its wide movepool, and its ability to attack really, really hard from both ends of the spectrum has no sure-fire counter either.

 

[dr00]

i don't think anyone considered blissey an effective counter for skymin anyway.

Regice and Registeel i always thought were more appropriate for that role, but i don't play shoddy so i'm not 100% sure. did anyone try to use any of the regis to wall skymin to any success?

 

[reachzero]

Crobat is a sure-fire Skymin counter. The only thing that could hurt it is HP Ice, and any Skymin with HP Ice is leaving out something important. Bulky Zapdos with Roar also handle Skymins of all sorts nicely, as Earthworm demonstrated rather emphatically in annihilating me in the Smogon Frontier. :(

edit: dr00, Registeel and Regice both beat any Skymin (including SubSeed, which I've been using) pretty close to 100% of the time (barring flinchhax, which only a fool would rely on in the face of an incoming Ice Beam/Ice Punch), but both are close to useless for doing anything else, so they're incredibly rare.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Skymin however has no sure-fire counter, while Heatran (bulky waters, Moltres) and Tyranitar (Hariyama) do.

You mention only one Pokemon for Tyranitar and two for Heatran. In turn, can't I say that Skymin is countered by Regice and Registeel?

The SubSeed set can kill Blissey, and Choice Specs Skymin can too if Blissey's only weapon is Seismic Toss. Skymin has more than 1 way to deal with Blissey. My biggest fear is the previously mentioned Specs set. It just rapes and rapes.

This is what I meant; apparently, every set has the same usage >_>. Tyranitar can use a Choice Band to keep Hariyama from raping him but, then, you'll say that faster things can OHKO it, then I can turn around and say that Tyranitar has Dragon Dance to deal with those. Get it?

Also, additional counters (Moltres) can easily get killed with a simple Air Slash flinch.

This goes back to what I said before, Skymin relies on luck to survive whilst other luck abusers rely on their natural bulk and Defensive capabilities to survive.

Skymin abuses its speed and Serene Grace unlike Garchomp who utilizes Sword Dance and great attack.

Garchomp had MUCH better coverage with its two STAB moves and could raise its evaison 20% with a Sandstream active; however, with its Swampert-ish Defenses, it didn't need to rely on shit like that. Togekiss abuses Thunder Wave/Air Slash/Aura Sphere/Roost with its better Defensive capabilities. Is anyone making her Uber, too? Oh and don't say that it needs Thunder Wave to win using luck. Thunder Wave fits perfectly in Togekiss's moveset while Skymin suffers the dreaded 4 moveslto syndrome which gives it problems choosing its moveset. Garchomp is also a SHARK with MUSCLES T_T.

I have no doubt people vote it Uber because of the luck factor. Similiarly to Evasion Clause, it relies heavily on luck.

You really haven't been reading the average person to vote Skymin Uber's reasons... have you?

Other reasons I believe it to be Uber is how it changes the metagame.

The discovery of SD Lucario and Outraging Dragons other than Dragonite changed the metagame, too... your point?

New fasted grass type puts Sceptile to shame, forces Heatran to run max speed, makes priority moves abundant throwing off most Berry strategies (it doesn't do this alone though).

Celebi puts Meganium to shame, is anyone complaining? Heatran running max Speed with a Choice Scarf doesn't seem to bad to me. In fact, it makes anything that was faster than the Modest variant a bit shakey, thinking that Heatran's going to outspeed and OHKO them.

Outspeeding what wasn't meant to be outsped, as I see it.

Speed users tend to try and outspeed Weavile, Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Ninjask and Choice Scarf users. I see how they're any different from Skymin having to be outsped.

It can fit in both areas, OU and Uber. But it's not just its power, but how it alters the metagame.

Any new Pokemon can change the metagame. It really depends on how much it changes the metagame. Skymin only provolked more Ice Shard and Choice Scarf users. It also managed to drag Regice and Registeel out their little less than used home in BL and into the standard competitive arena as Skymin 'checks'. Yet with Garchomp, it caused a LOT of Special Attackers to start running Ice Beam with some significant EV donation into Special Attack, Defensive Pokemon to alter their EVs so Garchomp wouldn't utterly rape them and for most attackers to start running more Speed to outdo it with. Garchomp could also take most hits from those attackers and OHKO them respectively.

 

[Kay [Old]]

Skymin however has no sure-fire counter, while Heatran (bulky waters, Moltres) and Tyranitar (Hariyama) do

Salamence? Lucario?

My biggest fear is the previously mentioned Specs set. It just rapes and rapes

...I have not seen a specs set, I'll admit, but there is the little factor of choice, after all. Choice pokes can generally be out-predicted.

Also, additional counters (Moltres) can easily get killed with a simple Air Slash flinch

If you're going to rely on Skymin's flinchax to beat your counters, you aren't going to last very long. If luck doesn't go your way, your Skymin is dead. Plain and simple. That's not true for other ones like Togekiss.

I have no doubt people vote it Uber because of the luck factor. Similiarly to Evasion Clause, it relies heavily on luck.

So people who voted it uber because it flinchaxed a 6 cm jirachi are justified?

Other reasons I believe it to be Uber is how it changes the metagame. New fasted grass type puts Sceptile to shame, forces Heatran to run max speed, makes priority moves abundant throwing off most Berry strategies (it doesn't do this alone though). Outspeeding what wasn't meant to be outsped, as I see it.

It can fit in both areas, OU and Uber. But it's not just its power, but how it alters the metagame.

What. The. Fuck. I think this is an even worse argument than the "6 cm jirachi" argument, as anything can change the metagame. Putting Bullet Punch on Scizor changed the metagame. Putting Outrage on Kingdra changed the metagame. Shoving Trick on every Psychic and their uncle changed the metagame. What makes Skymin different from that? This argument, as far as I can tell, is for idiots who are not willing to adjust to the Platinum metagame and just want to ban things so they can go back to the way things were. Making priority moves abundant means it's uber? Please tell me you're joking. And care to explain just how you determined that skymin "outspeeds what wasn't meant to be outsped?"

 

[lilyhollow]

So people who voted it uber because it flinchaxed a 6 cm jirachi are justified?

I think he later came around in the shoddy chat and said that it was less than 6 cms, or that there was a Seed Flare SDef drop in there (in which case I'm a little confused as to how he didn't manage to kill the Skymin), or something like that. Which is pretty absurd if you ask me, but I guess this is besides the point right now.

 

[Syberia]

As good as Hariyama is at countering Tyranitar, its BL status leads me to believe that most people are using non-sure-fire counters to deal with Tyranitar.

You must be forgetting Machamp and his OU status.