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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

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That's unfair Jumpman, there are plenty of us who appreciate the work you guys are always putting in, and have been laddering our asses off from the start. Ok, admittedly I was too retarded to make my team actually work for the garchomp and deoxys votes, but I realize I needed to try harder for skymin, so I've been laddering ever since you announced it (heh heh, top ten on leaderboard).

Anyway, it might be arrogant for me to try to say, "don't feel underappreciated," but I do think there are a lot of us who do appreciate you guys a lot. :/
 
Chris is me said:
Hey, thanks for proving my point for me. When you're trying to argue that there are an impractically small number of checks for something and then say it's just like every other Choiced Pokémon... hey hey, it is.
Click to expand...

... Most Skymin aren't choiced. And if we're arguing that every Choice pokemon should be OU, then let's have Kyorge OU.

And the other way to interpret the signature is to say that people who say Garchomp is uncounterable assume the SR, SS etc always active and massive movepool all in one set. It's somewhat irrelevant though, as Garchomp is Uber without such assumptions. But it is ridiculous to assume all that will be active in a match. Generally, we just assume SR, because that is likely to be set up in a match. The other factors are considerations as well, but not major ones.


Jumpman16 said:
You realize you're comparing the less than three dozen voters we had on Deoxys-S to the millions of young people who vote regardless, right? And that there is more than just the 18-25 demographic that votes, unlike the single demographic (Shoddy battlers who achieve the requirements) we have vote for the Rating/Deviation process? And, most importantly, that you don't see "them" throwing up their hands in frustration that some young voters don't vote precisely because there are several other demographic ready to represent the state or country despite any unwillingness from one single demographic?

Too few people do take the threshold to heart, I'm not sure how you can even make an argument otherwise. This is a problem no matter how you slice it. And you wanna know what's really unfair? The fact that the efforts Aeolus and I have put into making this a fun and fair process where the community gets to decide on the tiering of Suspects has been largely taken for granted. People don't even play on the required Ladder till the final 1-3 days and then complain that they couldn't get their rating up in time or that it was "too hard", even when we make it clear that everyone has a month to do this.

Aeolus and I have jokingly agreed that we wouldn't really have a problem "mandating" a Suspect's tier if the community is going to continue to be this lazy with the chance it has to do something about competitive pokemon. It's not like you guys could do anything about it if I decided to keep Skymin in OU for Stage 2 so we can move on to another Suspect (God knows how much time we have "wasted" considering just four suspects by now), or if Aeolus decided that Ho-oh is uber and will never be tested, no questions asked. But we're not going to do that because we're not dictatorial asses who don't care about the community. The unfair part comes in when the community continues to demonstrate, through increasingly bad voter turnout (from 54 votes on Garchomp to 32 on DX-S), that they are either unwilling or unable to make a difference in competitive pokemon (or both). There are three clear solutions to this:


1) continue to not do anything about what is likely a downwards trend in voter "turnout"

2) scrap the current Suspect Test process altogether and decide to be quicker and more elitist with our Suspect decisions so we can solidify the competitive metagame already

3) decide to increase the number of voters we allow to vote after considering that 1655/65 are relatively arbitrary numbers that are supposed to be a guideline and not a hard-and-fast rule


1 is out of the question if you are even remotely observant and proactive. 2 is seeming like a better and better option with every Suspect, but I not going to do that because I'm not as mad with power as people, from Smogon or outside, may be inclined to think. 3 is the best option when you realize that our efforts to increase voter turnout by clearly stating the requirements and deadlines—because we realize that battling skill correlates rather well with competitive pokemon intelligence and would therefore prefer our voters strive for the requirements or come as close as possible— has not been enough. Unless you'd rather us go back to the bold voting process which definitely had more than 75-100 turnout?
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I'll admit, that's a bit annoying for Jump, Aeolus and others. Perhaps, in the future, a rule could be introduced that players must have a least one game a week to vote, or something like that. But I can't decide on making those rules.
 
I don't think theres a way to enforce that with our current system, which in fact encourages waiting til the last minute because that way you don't have to play as many games as you would if you played the entire month, because you don't have to "keep your deviation low." You just play on the last couple days until you make the grade and that's that.
 
Well, if we really wanted to we could regulate this a lot more cleanly. For instance:

1. We could register voters 1 month in advance (hey, that's not asking too much right?). Said voters would each start a new account for the voting, and thus would all start with a clean slate, a registered name, and the players who just want to climb the ladder without participating wouldn't be interfered with.

2. Create check points. Instead of setting 1 due date, set 3 with gradually increasing requirements (hey, everyone's starting on the same slate after all).

3. Those who make it past the 3 check points would vote.

This of course would probably take even more work, and perhaps ask more of the players themselves, but hey Jump said that "if people want a say, they should put effort into it," right?
 
The things cause me so much trouble, it was never funny. Either I get swept without being able to land a single decisive hit on the damn thing, or it'll stall my entire team to death and make me cry. Uber please.
 
From what I've seen Shaymin usage is about as often as Gyarados just your standard everyday OU, it has so many freaking counters it's laughble.

Think about it people Donphan w/ a little EV can revenge kill it.
 
Not sure if this is the best place to ask this, but since it's related to the voting requirements, I'll ask it here. Does anybody know how much the standard deviation changes per day of inactivity? I'll be out of town from Wednesday to Saturday of the week prior to the deadline (which is Saturday) and I want to know approximately how low of a standard deviation I should reach such that my inactive days won't increase it past 55.
 
Skymin is the Queen of Hax. (Dunsparce is the king) She is quite possibly the new Togekiss.

Despite this, it is still counterable. Skymin has a problem against Hail teams, and STAB Blizzard will always hit, (even past Protect) taking a good chunk of HP out of her but not always KOing. Despite her Serene Grace Air Slash and Seed Flare (a devastating combination) like what Donovantx8 said, each set is fully counterable, and Skymin will be reduced to salad if you have just the right counter.
 
Mostly for entertainment value:

Code: 
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
Legacy Raider sent out Infernape (lvl 100 Infernape ?).
_superboy_ sent out Jolteon (lvl 100 Jolteon ?).
Infernape used Fake Out.
Jolteon lost 18% of its health.
Jolteon flinched!
---
Jolteon used Thunderbolt.
Infernape lost 100% of its health.
Infernape hung on using its Focus Sash!
Jolteon lost 10% of its health.
Infernape used Close Combat.
Jolteon lost 72% of its health.
_superboy_'s Jolteon fainted.
Infernape's defence was lowered.
Infernape's special defence was lowered.
---
_superboy_ switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Infernape lost 0% of its health.
Legacy Raider's Infernape fainted.
Shaymin-s lost 10% of its health.
---
Legacy Raider switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
_superboy_ switched in Milotic (lvl 100 Milotic ?).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
Milotic lost 27% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Milotic used Hypnosis.
Milotic's attack missed!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Milotic's leftovers restored its health a little!
Milotic restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Seed Flare.
It's super effective!
Milotic lost 85% of its health.
_superboy_'s Milotic fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Shaymin-s used Leech Seed.
Metagross was seeded!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Metagross's attack missed!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's not very effective...
Metagross lost 20% of its health.
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross used Agility.
Metagross's speed was sharply raised.
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Metagross used Meteor Mash.
Metagross's attack missed!
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
But it failed!
Metagross's health was sapped by leech seed!
Metagross lost 6% of its health.
_superboy_'s Metagross fainted.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Gliscor (lvl 100 Gliscor ?).
Shaymin-s used Leech Seed.
Gliscor was seeded!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 8% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 13% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Gliscor used Ice Fang.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Shaymin-s!
Shaymin-s's substitute faded!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's leftovers restored its health a little!
Gliscor restored 6% of its health.
Gliscor's health was sapped by leech seed!
Gliscor lost 12% of its health.
Shaymin-s regained health!
Shaymin-s restored 13% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Heracross (lvl 100 Heracross ?).
Shaymin-s used Substitute.
Shaymin-s lost 25% of its health.
Shaymin-s made a substitute!
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Heracross lost 100% of its health.
_superboy_'s Heracross fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ switched in Shaymin-s (lvl 100 Shaymin-s).
Shaymin-s used Air Slash.
It's super effective!
Shaymin-s lost 90% of its health.
_superboy_'s Shaymin-s fainted.
Shaymin-s's leftovers restored its health a little!
Shaymin-s restored 6% of its health.
---
_superboy_ has left the room.
Legacy Raider wins!
 
Even though that that log is funny, what is it trying to prove? That your opponent is a terrible player and that you know how to make Meteor Mash miss you? Celebi, Sceptile, Venusaur and even the land form of Shaymin could have done what you just showed us in that log.
 
I'm sorry, maybe my post was a bit immature and pointless. But if people like _superboy_ somehow manage to vote Skymin uber, then we won't be able to enjoy logs like that any more, so I thought I'd post it while I had the chance.

I can delete it if you want? But I guess you can do that already lol.
 
I'm not voting either way, because it's a strong Pokemon but my team can handle it. But I would like to bring up a few things.

One thing that is common but valid is the Garchomp comparison. Garchomp is strong and a lot of people had to have certain counters for it like some people claim Skymin requires. Ice shard boned him pretty well too. My team never got too badly sweeped by Garchomp (Roserade, Blissey, Skarmory, Arcanine, Alakazam, Slowbro), but he could do quite a bit of hurt. I find the same thing with Skymin. A final comparison is the hax argument. Remember Sand Veil? It wasn't always gauranteed to work, but some teams with only one counter to Garchomp would fall if they got haxed. The same could be said with Skymin.

My second point is it's viability in ubers. While Garchomp has a hard time sticking out from Rayquaza among other massive threats, Skymin might have a specific niche. It's a fast subseeder and the lack of grassers in Ubers would allow it to subseed almost everything (barring other skymin). It might not become the most used thing in Ubers, but who knows, even with a shallow movepool subseeding might give it a chance to stand out.
 
kylecat said:
I'm not voting either way, because it's a strong Pokemon but my team can handle it. But I would like to bring up a few things.

One thing that is common but valid is the Garchomp comparison. Garchomp is strong and a lot of people had to have certain counters for it like some people claim Skymin requires. Ice shard boned him pretty well too. My team never got too badly sweeped by Garchomp (Roserade, Blissey, Skarmory, Arcanine, Alakazam, Slowbro), but he could do quite a bit of hurt. I find the same thing with Skymin. A final comparison is the hax argument. Remember Sand Veil? It wasn't always gauranteed to work, but some teams with only one counter to Garchomp would fall if they got haxed. The same could be said with Skymin.
Click to expand...

You can't forget that Garchomp much less difficulty to set itself up, while Skymin has only Growth, is weak to SR, not immune to Thunder Wave, etcetera.

kylecat said:
My second point is it's viability in ubers. While Garchomp has a hard time sticking out from Rayquaza among other massive threats, Skymin might have a specific niche. It's a fast subseeder and the lack of grassers in Ubers would allow it to subseed almost everything (barring other skymin). It might not become the most used thing in Ubers, but who knows, even with a shallow movepool subseeding might give it a chance to stand out.
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Your point is...? How well a pokémon fare in the Uber metagame doesn't count for its "OUness".
 
kylecat said:
One thing that is common but valid is the Garchomp comparison. Garchomp is strong and a lot of people had to have certain counters for it like some people claim Skymin requires. Ice shard boned him pretty well too. My team never got too badly sweeped by Garchomp (Roserade, Blissey, Skarmory, Arcanine, Alakazam, Slowbro), but he could do quite a bit of hurt. I find the same thing with Skymin. A final comparison is the hax argument. Remember Sand Veil? It wasn't always gauranteed to work, but some teams with only one counter to Garchomp would fall if they got haxed. The same could be said with Skymin.
Click to expand...
Not really. What made Garchomp broken enough to be moved up to Ubers was that the YacheChomp set was practically guaranteed it to get a KO, due to practically nothing being able to stop it from using Swords Dance to double its already massive Attack stat, which had amazing type coverage to go with it, along with its bulk, Stealth Rock resistance, and unique speed tier. Sand Veil was just the icing on the cake, which occasionally made it even more difficult to take Garchomp out. However, Garchomp didn't need such luck to do its job; with or without Sand Veil hax, it was still most likely going to get its job done.

Skymin, however, has lower Special Attack than Garchomp does attack, and needs to rely on luck with Seed Flare to pseudo-double it, or give up a move for Growth, which will only increase it by 1.5x. In addition, it's type coverage isn't as good as Garchomp's. On top of that, unlike Garchomp, Skymin is weak to Stealth Rock, hampering its ability to retreat and come back in later. Pretty much, Skymin needs to rely on luck with Air Slash flinches and Seed Flare Sp. Def drops in order to sweep like Garchomp did. Skymin's still good without them, but not broken or Garchomp good. Unlike Garchomp, which didn't need too much luck to do its job, Skymin does need luck to be on its side to sweep like Garchomp did. So, I wouldn't exactly say that the comparison is valid.

My second point is it's viability in ubers. While Garchomp has a hard time sticking out from Rayquaza among other massive threats, Skymin might have a specific niche. It's a fast subseeder and the lack of grassers in Ubers would allow it to subseed almost everything (barring other skymin). It might not become the most used thing in Ubers, but who knows, even with a shallow movepool subseeding might give it a chance to stand out.
Click to expand...
Ubers is first and formost a ban list for OU; a Pokemon's performance in Uber in no way impacts whether it should be Uber itself or not.
 
Things hit way too hard for a sub-seeder to even have a chance at sucess they are at the constant risk of KO due to their universal fragility and low HP and switching in Skymin unlike most Subseeders will lose 25% of HP and after a substiute 50% and Giratina can simply roar it away making Subseeding virtually useless even in uber.
 
donovantx8 said:
Things hit way too hard for a sub-seeder to even have a chance at sucess they are at the constant risk of KO due to their universal fragility and low HP and switching in Skymin unlike most Subseeders will lose 25% of HP and after a substiute 50% and Giratina can simply roar it away making Subseeding virtually useless even in uber.
Click to expand...

A sub-seeder sets up Subs. No matter how much power there is in an attack, it means little if it only hits a Sub whilst his Health gets drained away. Subseed Skymin wouldn't swap in on something so powerful, taking SR damage. It would come in, after one of its teammates gets KOed, on a pokemon that poses little threat to Skymin and should swap out to a counter. Skymin would use Leech Seed, hitting the switch-in (I will refer to this pokemon as the switch-in for the rest of the post). She will gain Leftovers recovery plus Leech Seed recovery. Skymin would be forced out, usually facing a OHKO threat, but she gains Health from Leftovers and Leech Seed that heals most of the SR damage she received, whilst the opponent receives more damage than Skymin thanks to Leech Seed and SR in that 1 turn, even if he swaps out immediately.

If the switch-in has Roar or Whirlwind, the above still applies. The only difference is Skymin may stay in to take the Roar, meaning the pHazer takes another round of SR damage.

If there is no switch-in (that is, the pokemon that poses little threat to Skymin stays in), he should get beaten by the Skymin until he is eventually forced to swap out, and Skymin gets to Leech Seed the next pokemon, usually with a Sub up.

The main exception in which Skymin takes less damage than the switch-in is if the switch-in has Leftovers. The common switch-ins (in term of usages - that is Zapdos is #4 in October Usages, whilst Registeel is far from OU) that might hold Leftovers are:
  • Scizor (who generally prefers LO - Leftovers Scizor cannot 2HKO Skymin with Bullet Punch, and whilst Skymin will 3HKO with Air Slash, Leech Seed Recovery put the odds in Skymin's favour)
  • Zapdos (takes just as much damage as Skymin from SR, so it does take more damage than Skymin)
  • Blissey (who gives an absurd amount of Health from Leech Seed)
  • Tyranitar - will get into KO range of Seed Flare before he has a chance to beat Skymin, and he cannot outspeed Skymin without Rock Polish. If Ttar does use that move, Skymin will probably switch out after her Sub gets destroyed, if she doesn't, Tyranitar has died from Seed Flare.
  • Metagross - yes, it takes less damage with Leftovers
  • Skarmory - yes, he takes less damage with Leftovers
  • Tentacruel (Liquid Ooze variant definitely has the upper hand. Clear Body may not. The standard Health for Tentacruel is 352, whilst Subseed Skymin has 341. Skymin loses 85 per turn from Substitute, while Tentacruel loses 44 Hlth per turn from Leech Seed to Skymin. Factoring Leftovers, Skymin loses 20 Hlth per turn, whilst Tentacruel loses 22 Hlth per turn. Eventually, Tentacruel is in KO range of Seed Flare before Skymin faces a KO threat.)
SS is the other exception, assuming that the switch-in is immune to SS.

Any Subseeder can do all the above, but Skymin has an easier time at it thanks to threatening more pokemon that other Subseeder users due to Skymin's high SpcAtt (2nd only to Roserade) and high Speed (top), STAB Air Slash and Seed Flare's raw power. Taking hits in these scenarios is irrelevant, so Skymin > Celebi and Landmin.

So Subseed Skymin shouldn't be underrated. She can overcome her SR weakness and still beat many pokemon.


Little Green Yoda said:
Not sure if this is the best place to ask this, but since it's related to the voting requirements, I'll ask it here. Does anybody know how much the standard deviation changes per day of inactivity? I'll be out of town from Wednesday to Saturday of the week prior to the deadline (which is Saturday) and I want to know approximately how low of a standard deviation I should reach such that my inactive days won't increase it past 65. And the required rating so that I am eligible for voting at the time.
Click to expand...

I also want to be notified of this, as I am away from Wednesday to Saturday too.
 
darknessmalice said:
A sub-seeder sets up Subs. No matter how much power there is in an attack, it means little if it only hits a Sub whilst his Health gets drained away. Subseed Skymin wouldn't swap in on something so powerful, taking SR damage. It would come in, after one of its teammates gets KOed, on a pokemon that poses little threat to Skymin and should swap out to a counter. Skymin would use Leech Seed, hitting the switch-in (I will refer to this pokemon as the switch-in for the rest of the post). She will gain Leftovers recovery plus Leech Seed recovery. Skymin would be forced out, usually facing a OHKO threat, but she gains Health from Leftovers and Leech Seed that heals most of the SR damage she received, whilst the opponent receives more damage than Skymin thanks to Leech Seed and SR in that 1 turn, even if he swaps out immediately.

If the switch-in has Roar or Whirlwind, the above still applies. The only difference is Skymin may stay in to take the Roar, meaning the pHazer takes another round of SR damage.

If there is no switch-in (that is, the pokemon that poses little threat to Skymin stays in), he should get beaten by the Skymin until he is eventually forced to swap out, and Skymin gets to Leech Seed the next pokemon, usually with a Sub up.

The main exception in which Skymin takes less damage than the switch-in is if the switch-in has Leftovers. The common switch-ins (in term of usages - that is Zapdos is #4 in October Usages, whilst Registeel is far from OU) that might hold Leftovers are:
  • Scizor (who generally prefers LO - Leftovers Scizor cannot 2HKO Skymin with Bullet Punch, and whilst Skymin will 3HKO with Air Slash, Leech Seed Recovery put the odds in Skymin's favour)
  • Zapdos (takes just as much damage as Skymin from SR, so it does take more damage than Skymin)
  • Blissey (who gives an absurd amount of Health from Leech Seed)
  • Tyranitar - will get into KO range of Seed Flare before he has a chance to beat Skymin, and he cannot outspeed Skymin without Rock Polish. If Ttar does use that move, Skymin will probably switch out after her Sub gets destroyed, if she doesn't, Tyranitar has died from Seed Flare.
  • Metagross - yes, it takes less damage with Leftovers
  • Skarmory - yes, he takes less damage with Leftovers
  • Tentacruel (Liquid Ooze variant definitely has the upper hand. Clear Body may not. The standard Health for Tentacruel is 352, whilst Subseed Skymin has 341. Skymin loses 85 per turn from Substitute, while Tentacruel loses 44 Hlth per turn from Leech Seed to Skymin. Factoring Leftovers, Skymin loses 20 Hlth per turn, whilst Tentacruel loses 22 Hlth per turn. Eventually, Tentacruel is in KO range of Seed Flare before Skymin faces a KO threat.)
SS is the other exception, assuming that the switch-in is immune to SS.

Any Subseeder can do all the above, but Skymin has an easier time at it thanks to threatening more pokemon that other Subseeder users due to Skymin's high SpcAtt (2nd only to Roserade) and high Speed (top), STAB Air Slash and Seed Flare's raw power. Taking hits in these scenarios is irrelevant, so Skymin > Celebi and Landmin.





I also want to be notified of this, as I am away from Wednesday to Saturday too.
Click to expand...

I don't see your point? The fact it Subseeding is a rarely seen and rather in-effective strategy aslong as it can break it's sub it will lose at most 50% of it's health, I have tryed Subseeding and its effective on maybe on 1 pokemon, but as soon as you catch its easy enough to break. With all the Sandstorm running around in OU, it only gaining 12% a turn instead of the usual 16, and in Ubers the Sun or Rain will more than likely be out, making Skymin a great deal more susceptible to Fire, or Thunder, and will be taking nuetral damage from Water; not to mention it will be taking 25% Health every time it switches in and lets face it who spins in ubers?
 
darkness, everything that you just said can also be applied to Sceptile, Shaymin-Land, Celebi, Venusaur, Jumpluff, and any other pokemon that has access to SubSeed + a reasonable amount of speed. That doesn't make Skymin special. You just posted a bunch of damage calculations and didn't explain WHY they are overpowering. In this thread, you are just giving us a bunch of useless data and then drawing blatantly false conclusions...then you wonder why everyone is laughing every time you post. Maybe you should try making an ARGUMENT instead of just giving us calculations and expecting that the mediocre damage that Skymin does makes it Uber?

We know that Skymin is a good subseeder, we know that it is a good flincher. We have been asking you to explain WHY that makes Skymin uber and through 8 pages of incoherent rambling you still haven't actually given us any reasoning behind your posts.

SubSeed is actually Skymin's least effective set. Sure, its annoying, but 12.5% damage per turn is not much considering you only get 16 Leech Seeds (at 90% acc it is just another one of Skymin's highly unreliable moves, mind you) and 16 Substitutes. If I wanted to do insignificant amounts of damage every turn, I would just use Stealth Rock + Whirlwind Skarmory or Hippowdon. It has 120 base SpAtk and 127 base Speed and you want to.....stall with it? Not to mention that SubSeeding is a piss-poor strategy in d/p. It's no better than Toxic Stalling. If "SubSeed" is why you think Skymin is Uber then I really am going to lose a lot of faith in the voting population =\
 
ChocoboMog123 said:
Sorry if it's been answered already, but what is meant by "minimum rating"?
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I'm not an avid Shoddy Battler but im assuming it's the lowest you can be to be allowed to vote on shoddy.

@Jrrr

Finally, I don't see why people get so scared of SubSeed w/o Toxic Spikes support you can't stall anything at full health down to 0, this is because using Substitute on such a fragile pokemon is unheard of in this Metagame, people get annoyed by it yes, but I really don't see the scare more often than not your Subs are broken, Taunt ruins the whole thing, and Skymin on top of all that takes 25% on every switch making it inferior to Sceptile in my eyes as 372 speed is still impressive, not to say Sceptile is better than Skymin, just as Subseeding it is.

Subseeding, EspyJump, and many other strategies don't have a place in DPPt, and if Skymin is not even the best user, Grass is a relatively low used Type, and in Uber with everyone aiming to hit Lugia, Groudon, Lati Twins, and Rayquaza with Ice Beam, it's hardly viable in an Uber Metagame. Think about it assuming it running a Life Orb/Choice Set w/ Seed Flare/Air Slash/Hidden Power Fire/Earth Power it hits a not very appealing 3 pokemon in the whole Uber teir switching to HP Ice is an option, but with all the Kyogres running around and being locked into a move its risk being sponged and Skymin can afford to switch out due to the ever prevalent Stealth Rocks, not to mention Blissey walls 3/4 of Skymin's attacks.

The problem with Garchomp is that you needed a dedicated counter to beat, the same is not true for Skymin it's luck reliant, 4x weakness to ice, takes 25% from Stealth Rock, and favorite move is resisted by some of the most popular pokemon Metagross, Scizor, Zapdos, Heatran, Salemence, the list goes on.

We can't ship everything off to Ubers that has a bit of luck, look at Garchomp we shipped him off Ubers and wth uses him anymore? The point of banning is to get rid of things that prove to powerful for the Metagame, Skymin is just not one of them.
 
Sceptile also has a much lower base 70 HP, allowing it to gain back a lot more health with each leech and make subs much more cheaply. While it does not have STAB air slash to take down enemy grass types, the odds of the enemy even having a grass type are fairly slim, and then Sceptile carrying hp ice would not be unheard of. It could also potentially be carrying x-scizzor, which celebi would really hate . . .
 
donovantx8, I think you're missing one of the REALLY big points here. Why in the hell would you even argue about Skymin's ability to do stuff in Ubers. The argument is flawed for two reasons:

1: Skymin isn't exactly terrible in Ubers, given the fact that Groudon and Kyogre are weak to Grass, and scary foes such as Palkia are neutral to it.

2: Ubers is a Ban Tier, not a balanced metagame. Skymin's power in Ubers has nothing to do with whether or not it should be banned. Look at stuff like Manaphy and Wobbuffet- they're terrible in Ubers, but they're there nonetheless because they are too powerful for OU. Ubers performance has no bearing on tier status.

I certainly hope nobody intends to vote on erroneous grounds like this, because that would be a damn shame even though I support Skymin being OU.
 
That the problem with Ubers it just banning from OU, furthermore answer this question has anyone ever had to create a dedicated counter to Skymin, now ask yourself the same question with Garchomp and you have your answer for OU or Uber?

Think about it most people have at least 1 pokemon that resist both of its crappy STAB moves.


Seven Deadly Sins said:
I certainly hope nobody intends to vote on erroneous grounds like this, because that would be a damn shame even though I support Skymin being OU.
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@ 7 I guess that's all you read because I spoke much of how Skymin doesnt fit in with Standard play either.

Read this time K? erroneous(lol). I REPEAT 7 DEADLY SINS READ THE POST.

Finally, I don't see why people get so scared of SubSeed w/o Toxic Spikes support you can't stall anything at full health down to 0, this is because using Substitute on such a fragile pokemon is unheard of in this Metagame, people get annoyed by it yes, but I really don't see the scare more often than not your Subs are broken, Taunt ruins the whole thing, and Skymin on top of all that takes 25% on every switch making it inferior to Sceptile in my eyes as 372 speed is still impressive, not to say Sceptile is better than Skymin, just as Subseeding it is.

The problem with Garchomp is that you needed a dedicated counter to beat, the same is not true for Skymin it's luck reliant, 4x weakness to ice, takes 25% from Stealth Rock, and favorite move is resisted by some of the most popular pokemon Metagross, Scizor, Zapdos, Heatran, Salemence, the list goes on.
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In that part I list many ways in which Skymin is barely sufficent for the OU game, i personally wouldn't mind it going to BL; if it weren't so fast.

Seven Deadly Sins said:
donovantx8, I think you're missing one of the REALLY big points here. Why in the hell would you even argue about Skymin's ability to do stuff in Ubers. The argument is flawed for two reasons:

1: Skymin isn't exactly terrible in Ubers, given the fact that Groudon and Kyogre are weak to Grass, and scary foes such as Palkia are neutral to it.
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Throwing Scary infront of something doesn't make it true, Skymin can't even switch into Kyogre as a Specs Thunder, Water Spout(resistant and still KOED), Ice Beam will OHKO that little fragile thing that's not even factoring in Stealth Rocks, but like you said it just a ban teir, but what are we banning it for so our ever prevalent Grass types arent flinched to death(sarcasim), since Ice is such a lowly used type it can survive long (also sarcasim), because it resists Stealth Rock (once again sarcasim).

Yes Skymin has it's merits, but to all who think it need to be banned play 20 matches and see if you see Skymin more than 50% of time, if you did the same with Garchomp a few months ago the results would be 80-95% margain, i assure you Skymin is less than 50%. IMO all Skymin is a weaker less bulky varient of Togekiss, with a few perks over it Earth Power namely.

This isn't targeted at you 7. the last part anyway.
 
donovantx8 said:
I don't see your point? The fact it Subseeding is a rarely seen and rather in-effective strategy aslong as it can break it's sub it will lose at most 50% of it's health, I have tryed Subseeding and its effective on maybe on 1 pokemon, but as soon as you catch its easy enough to break. With all the Sandstorm running around in OU, it only gaining 12% a turn instead of the usual 16, and in Ubers the Sun or Rain will more than likely be out, making Skymin a great deal more susceptible to Fire, or Thunder, and will be taking nuetral damage from Water; not to mention it will be taking 25% Health every time it switches in and lets face it who spins in ubers?
Click to expand...

jrrrrrrr said:
darkness, everything that you just said can also be applied to Sceptile, Shaymin-Land, Celebi, Venusaur, Jumpluff, and any other pokemon that has access to SubSeed + a reasonable amount of speed. That doesn't make Skymin special. You just posted a bunch of damage calculations and didn't explain WHY they are overpowering. In this thread, you are just giving us a bunch of useless data and then drawing blatantly false conclusions...then you wonder why everyone is laughing every time you post. Maybe you should try making an ARGUMENT instead of just giving us calculations and expecting that the mediocre damage that Skymin does makes it Uber?

We know that Skymin is a good subseeder, we know that it is a good flincher. We have been asking you to explain WHY that makes Skymin uber and through 8 pages of incoherent rambling you still haven't actually given us any reasoning behind your posts.

SubSeed is actually Skymin's least effective set. Sure, its annoying, but 12.5% damage per turn is not much considering you only get 16 Leech Seeds (at 90% acc it is just another one of Skymin's highly unreliable moves, mind you) and 16 Substitutes. If I wanted to do insignificant amounts of damage every turn, I would just use Stealth Rock + Whirlwind Skarmory or Hippowdon. It has 120 base SpAtk and 127 base Speed and you want to.....stall with it? Not to mention that SubSeeding is a piss-poor strategy in d/p. It's no better than Toxic Stalling. If "SubSeed" is why you think Skymin is Uber then I really am going to lose a lot of faith in the voting population =\
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I'll reply to both points at the same time.

The point of the post was to say that Subseed Skymin shouldn't be underrated, and how it can work despite a SR weakness, using evidence backed up by calculations to say why. Im against comments like "Skymin is extremely underwhelming"... I partially agree with Jrrrrrr that usually, other Subseeders can do the same thing. However, I believe Skymin is more effective than the others. It's definitely better than Sceptile (sorry Chou), because most pokemon can use Hidden Power, and she has STAB Air Slash for Celebi, whilst Sceptile has to use his weaker attack off a non-STAB attack (and Celebi are much more likely to be physically defensive than specially defensive), which only serves the purpose of hitting Celebi, whilst Air Slash has many more uses. Skymin is faster than the other subseeders and has Seed Flare and Earth Power. Skymin's defensives are only inferior to Celebi and Landmin, who lack Skymin's other advantages. If higher base HP is an issue with Skymin, then she can lower her HP IVs to 0 if she wishes.

Perhaps I should add a conclusion. I'll put one in.

90% accuracy on Leech Seed is definitely not an issue when the #1 Pokemon in terms of usage (Heatran) is regularly seen using Fire Blast as a main form of STAB, over Flamethrower, Lava Pume and Overheat, which has 85% accuracy. There are many cases in which accuracy hasn't been an issue is Stone Edge on many pokemon (its the 6th most common move), STAB Megahorn on Heracross, Focus Blast on Gengar and Alakazam, Hypnosis (when it was 70%), Will o Wisp and Toxic. Leech Seed is more likely to hit than all of these.

Personally though, I don't think Skymin should be Ubers for Leechseeding, as Skarmory beats it too easily. Nor should it be Uber for power, as Salamance does more damage with Outrage. The only viable case for Ubers is luck, and I'm very biased against luck, if anyone hasn't noticed. I think we all know the level of luck Skymin is capable of (and I consider Skymin more haxy than Togekiss thanks to better speed and Seed Flare).


And by the way, how much would your rating and standard deviation change if you're inactive from Wednesday to Sunday?
 
So, by your logic darknessmalice, Togekiss should be uber also?

You can't ban a pokemon solely on the basis of it's ability. That would make Blissey, Jirachi, and Dunsparce uber, and pretty much anything that has a chance of being potentially dangerous with luck (so, throw Machamp in Ubers too because of Dynamicpunch).

If that is not what you are implying, then you pretty much have made our point for us. Skymin is only dangerous because of luck and is dealt with accordingly.
 
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