np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

[ginganinja]

But, to some degree, shouldn't usage reflect that? I know usage isn't the be all and end all of suspects but if something was simply too powerful for the tier with specific checks and counters, shouldn't the usage be reflective of that?

Stop bringing up usage as an argument in your posts, or ill moderate them. Usage is never "really" an indication on its own that something is broken (otherwise we would have banned Scizor). The fact that Keldeo sits 7th alone, is evidence that its "common" among the top players, especially when I don't think anyone is expecting Keldeo to be more common than Tyranitar and Politoed (incidentally, its 2 most common partners). Please don't offer up the implication (which is what im getting from your posts) that sitting at 7th means that you are not "used enough" to be declared broken / Uber.

Please stick to your alternate arguments (or the ones brought up by PDC, Ojama etc etc) as I really don't see usage as a suitable one.

 

[Kidogo]

Yeah the problem with using usage as an argument is that something being broken "tends" to lead to it being used a lot, but that it absolutely doesn't have to. If a mon or strategy is extremely potent but difficult to execute, it may only be used by high-level players. The classic example is that wobbuffet was almost universally agreed to be broken because of how efficiently it could remove your mons' checks, but it was barely OU iirc because of how unfit it was for less thought-out teams. Deoxys-D is another, more recent example.

 

[ReshiRampage]

I find Keldeo massively broken. Since most Keldeo counters are defensive and don't, the opponent can just use them as hazard/set-up fodder. Keldeo takes very minimal hazard damage since getting Spikes up is really tough since Keldeo wrecks most Spikers. I've also found a very broken combo in Sub+Calm Mind Jirachi and Keldeo (any set works here) because Every Keldeo switch-in not named Toxicroak is set-up fodder for Jirachi (Celebi rarely uses Perish Song). And Latios is not a counter to Keldeo. You switch it in, it takes the hit, Keldeo switches to Ferrothorn or Jirachi (or whatever your Dragon-type switch-in is) and set up hazards on you. Keldeo can just come in again and again and repeat the process until Latios is dead. An interesting way to kill Toxicroak is Choice Specs Politoed with Psychic.

 

[jpw234]

I may not be laddering due to school and I miss out on this suspect but I would like to agree here.

I run a rain team with Orb Thundurous-T and Scarf-Keldeo. Thundurous has gotten me more KOs than Keldeo (on average in a game as well) and I believe only once or twice have Keldeo gotten 3+ KOs in a game. And with those 3+ KOs, Keldeo got 1 or 2 revenge kills then swept up a weakened team. Also, I'm more terrified of Sun and Venusaur than any other team. I've never beaten a Sun team yet. But never lost a game because my opponent had Keldeo. I also don't run Celebi or a Latias. Infact most KOs a Keldeo has gotten against me was 2 or 3. One was a revenge kill, the other I was already weakened on my last Pokemon.

Anecdotal evidence which doesn't show anything. "I'm more terrified about sun" just means your team is weak to sun, it doesn't say anything about the metagame. I could easily build a team that didn't give two shits about Keldeo, but it will lose to other threats.

IMO I don't think it's broken. Is it a Pokemon you should be prepared for? Yes. Is it good? Yes. Is it broken? No. I don't even think it's the best Pokemon in the game. I know we shouldn't use usage as an argument but Keldeo being 13th on the normal ladder and 7th on the 1850 ladder screams something is a miss. If something is broken shouldn't it be used a lot more than 7th? Yes usage isn't a big deal but using the old Garchomp comparision where I believe the team was "Lead, Garchomp, Garchomp Counter #1, Garchomp Counter #2, Counter of Garchomp's Counter, Spinner and/or Anti-Lead" Garchomp's usage reflected that. I don't think the metagame statistics reflect that when you replace Garchomp with Keldeo. Usage only tells part of the story however.

"I know we shouldn't use usage as an argument"...I guess you understand why I'm going to ignore this then?

I've looked over the thread at a glance a few times and I get the feeling more than once someone suggests a counter to Keldeo and someone responds with "what if it was running x instead of y?" and that annoys me. Keldeo can't run with full EVs in each stat, have choice specs, choice scarf and expert belt as it's item and run the moveset HP/Surf/SW/HP Ice/HP Grass/HP Ghost. I feel like say "play better" is an insult and a cop out but I feel like with careful play in a game you can work out it's set. If you get surprised then your opponent outplayed you and good job to them. That's part of the game. If they make you think they have HP Ice by switching out on your Jelli once, then next time hitting you with it, good job to them. They make you think they have a scarf or specs but have Expert Belt then you've been out played. Your opponent can do that with any Pokemon on any team. Ttar can Pursuit trap something, make you think it's banned by switching only to switch back in later and KO with Expert Belt. That leads me to weather.

I've already discussed why this is a silly argument. Sure Keldeo can't have three hidden powers and three items all at once. But my Keldeo counter can't be Celebi, Toxicroak, Jellicent and Amoonguss all at once. All this shows is that if you've picked a Keldeo "counter" and they have the right Keldeo set, your Keldeo "counter" becomes the first pokemon to die to Keldeo. In the context of a time where the most common complaint about the metagame is that it is too based on team matchup, this situation is not something we should be content with.

In the rain yes Keldeo is more powerful. But what water Pokemon isn't? We all thought Kingdra was OP when rain was allowed with Swift Swim. Toxicroak is better with rain, don't make it broken does it? Rain makes all water types and other Mons as well, better. I don't think we can make a ban on something simply because of weather. If that was the cause I wanna ban Venusaur cause it's stupidly good in the Sun. Weather is a bonus to a Pokemon. But I don't feel like it makes it broken.

Rain is broken. This is not a suspect test about rain. It is a suspect test about Keldeo. If Keldeo is broken, we should ban it. Venusaur is definitively not broken (hyperreliant on sun, hard walled by pink blobs/Latias/Heatran/Chandy/Kyurem(-B), wrecked by priority).

Overall, no, I don't think we should ban Keldeo. I'm upset I don't get to participate properly in this test so I'm only going on what I have played with and against Keldeo. From that experience I can confidently say a few things:
- Keldeo doesn't easily sweep and obtain 3+ KOs (this is not including late game when the opponent has is weakened as any competent sweep can do that)
- Keldeo does not become an "I win" selection any first time player can use to ensure wins (I have a win/loss of about 70/55 and I use Keldeo)
- Keldeo does have counters which hinder it's sweeping ability (it relys on HP for coverage and will miss KOs on certain counters due to this)
- Keldeo does not centeralise the Metagame as whilst I do use it I hardly see it

Also the statistics don't back up claims of it being centralizing. I do not think we should ban something that can be stopped, can't easily KO, doesn't become an "I win" button and that doesn't make the Metagame revolve around it.

- This is dependent on team matchup and you have offered no evidence other than "my team isn't one of the Keldeo weak ones".
- This is an absurd criterion for brokenness.
- Keldeo can get past all of its counters depending on its set, and with minimal team support it becomes much easier.
- It very clearly does...whether or not this is independent from rain in general is another question, but irrelevant. Keldeo is the main factor for the centralization that rain creates.

 

[Spinda]

I've already discussed why this is a silly argument. Sure Keldeo can't have three hidden powers and three items all at once. But my Keldeo counter can't be Celebi, Toxicroak, Jellicent and Amoonguss all at once. All this shows is that if you've picked a Keldeo "counter" and they have the right Keldeo set, your Keldeo "counter" becomes the first pokemon to die to Keldeo.

This is a silly argument.

If I use Gliscor and/or Landorus-T, which are universally considered the most common and best terrakion counters, I might get screwed over by a LO HP ice terrakion.
When your Skarmory/Tangrowth/Landorus-T gets destroyed by a dragonite because it's actually special agilitynite..
When you switch your heatran into that celebi and get popped by an earth power..
When you switch your xatu into that breloom, and it uses stone edge..
When you switch your heatran into volcarona and it has hp ground?
When you switch your jirachi into a gengar just to get crippled by a will-o-wisp and later beaten by that same gengar?
This can just go on.
There's a ridiculous amount of pokemon that don't have strict counters, this is a metagame built around checking everything as well as we can.

This is why we run multiple checks, people.

Rain is broken. This is not a suspect test about rain. It is a suspect test about Keldeo. If Keldeo is broken, we should ban it. Venusaur is definitively not broken (hyperreliant on sun, hard walled by pink blobs/Latias/Heatran/Chandy/Kyurem(-B), wrecked by priority).

Oh but what if that Venusaur has earthquake? What if venusaur actually beats pink blobs 1v1 thanks to giga drain? What if +2 LO Sludge bomb actually beats kyurem-b after rocks? WHAT IF THIS VENUSAUR HAS PURSUIT SUPPORT? What if that Latias gets easily 2HKO'd ( OHKO'd with a bit of prior damage ) by a growth boosted sludge bomb and can't actually OHKO it back if it has enough bulk to live said sludge bomb after rocks. What if it can live even ice shards from mamoswine and heal back with giga drain?

VENUSAUR MUST BE BROKEN, except it isn't.

 

[jpw234]

This is a silly argument.

If I use Gliscor and/or Landorus-T, which are universally considered the most common and best terrakion counters, I might get screwed over by a LO HP ice terrakion.
When your Skarmory/Tangrowth/Landorus-T gets destroyed by a dragonite because it's actually special agilitynite..
When you switch your heatran into that celebi and get popped by an earth power..
When you switch your xatu into that breloom, and it uses stone edge..
When you switch your heatran into volcarona and it has hp ground?
When you switch your jirachi into a gengar just to get crippled by a will-o-wisp and later beaten by that same gengar?
This can just go on.
There's a ridiculous amount of pokemon that don't have strict counters, this is a metagame built around checking everything as well as we can.

This is why we run multiple checks, people.

These situations are completely different. Terrakion have to run a dedicated set that loses much of its utility to get past its main counters. This set is not common, is in fact considered gimmicky and is generally not done with the intent of sweeping on its own, but clearing out some defensive hindrance for another pokemon to sweep. The same is true for most of your examples (except perhaps celebi v. heatran, as offensive celebi has some merit).

Keldeo, by contrast, gains almost ALL of its utility with only two moves, Hydro Pump and Secret Sword, along with its incredible stat distribution. This leaves two moveslots and an item choice to fuck with all of its main counters. Keldeo doesn't lose anything from its main function by choosing Icy Wind and HP Bug, or HP Ghost and Calm Mind, or HP Ice and Surf, or Substitute and Calm Mind, or Substitute and Toxic (something I've been experimenting with to great success to get past Jellicent and Latias). Then it can pick Scarf to outspeed offensive checks, Specs to power through defensive counters, or Expert Belt to lure in and dispose of pokemon it has trouble with.

Do you understand why Keldeo has a unique advantage in terms of getting past its counters?

 

[Spinda]

These situations are completely different. Terrakion have to run a dedicated set that loses much of its utility to get past its main counters. This set is not common, is in fact considered gimmicky and is generally not done with the intent of sweeping on its own, but clearing out some defensive hindrance for another pokemon to sweep. The same is true for most of your examples (except perhaps celebi v. heatran, as offensive celebi has some merit).

Keldeo, by contrast, gains almost ALL of its utility with only two moves, Hydro Pump and Secret Sword, along with its incredible stat distribution. This leaves two moveslots and an item choice to fuck with all of its main counters. Keldeo doesn't lose anything from its main function by choosing Icy Wind and HP Bug, or HP Ghost and Calm Mind, or HP Ice and Surf, or Substitute and Calm Mind, or Substitute and Toxic (something I've been experimenting with to great success to get past Jellicent and Latias). Then it can pick Scarf to outspeed offensive checks, Specs to power through defensive counters, or Expert Belt to lure in and dispose of pokemon it has trouble with.

Do you understand why Keldeo has a unique advantage in terms of getting past its counters?

Terrakion gains almost all of its utility with Stone edge and Close combat.. No, I don't understand.
Those other 2 moveslots are used for the exact same reasons keldeo uses them for..
And either way, you just lost your counter, and running secondary checks is CLEARLY ridiculous, if you were forced to run secondary checks for ANYTHING it SURELY is overcentralizing.. So CLEARLY you're just getting swept.

 

[jpw234]

Terrakion gains almost all of its utility with Stone edge and Close combat.. No, I don't understand.
Those other 2 moveslots are used for the exact same reasons keldeo uses them for

This is willful ignorance. The most common Terrakion sets are Band, Scarf, Double Dancer, Substitute/Swords Dance, or Taunt/SR. These are, in fact, the only sets listed on the Smogon site (which is not definitive but does have some indication of their viability) and Gliscor/Landorus-T wall all of them. In order to, for example, OHKO standard Gliscor with HP Ice, you will need to run 252 SpA EVs, Life Orb and a defense-dropping nature:
252 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (96.89 - 114.68%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
Assuming SR is up you can retain Adamant but still have to take out all of your attack EVs:
252- SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 307-364 (86.72 - 102.82%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are we going to continue this line of discussion?

 

[Spinda]

This is willful ignorance. The most common Terrakion sets are Band, Scarf, Double Dancer, Substitute/Swords Dance, or Taunt/SR. These are, in fact, the only sets listed on the Smogon site (which is not definitive but does have some indication of their viability) and Gliscor/Landorus-T wall all of them. In order to, for example, OHKO standard Gliscor with HP Ice, you will need to run 252 SpA EVs, Life Orb and a defense-dropping nature:
252 SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (96.89 - 114.68%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
Assuming SR is up you can retain Adamant but still have to take out all of your attack EVs:
252- SpA Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 307-364 (86.72 - 102.82%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Are we going to continue this line of discussion?

Erm.. Specs Keldeo doesn't OHKO Jellicent with hp ghost either? You predict the switch lmao. Standard hp ice LO terrak runs 4 SpA, and whether the sets listed on smogon is irrelevant considering many succesful pokemon players, including me have used the set to great success.
Well, you don't even need to predict the switch, as long as you don't use like SR or SD, SE + HP ice will be enough to ko, and so is CC + hp ice with rocks
Are you really implying it should be able to switch into gliscor or Landorus-T and ohko it? cuz thats not how things work

 

[NoUserName]

I find Keldeo massively broken. Since most Keldeo counters are defensive and don't, the opponent can just use them as hazard/set-up fodder. Keldeo takes very minimal hazard damage since getting Spikes up is really tough since Keldeo wrecks most Spikers. I've also found a very broken combo in Sub+Calm Mind Jirachi and Keldeo (any set works here) because Every Keldeo switch-in not named Toxicroak is set-up fodder for Jirachi (Celebi rarely uses Perish Song). And Latios is not a counter to Keldeo. You switch it in, it takes the hit, Keldeo switches to Ferrothorn or Jirachi (or whatever your Dragon-type switch-in is) and set up hazards on you. Keldeo can just come in again and again and repeat the process until Latios is dead. An interesting way to kill Toxicroak is Choice Specs Politoed with Psychic.

I don't know why Celebi with P-Song isn't so common, it's a great underrated move against bulky set-uppers and Substitute users such as CMSub Latias and CMSub Jirachi and killing out last-setupper mon. Most of the time I'd carry an Amoonguss but I'll carry Celebi because P-Song makes it not setup fodder to anything with Sub, and Celebi is extremely vulnerable to random Bug attacks(not only the known HP Bug Keldeo, but Rotom-W with Signal Beam, and cannot counter the rare Jolteon because usually runs Signal Beam, which is only useful against Celebi(and Abomasnow, but, meh, Aboma is so rare)), in the other hand, Amoonguss dies to LO Psyshock Starmie, beware with that.

About the common belief that Celebi shouldn't run P-Song with Baton Pass is false, I run both and almost never I had troubles about it. When you use P-Song, which is about 25% of the battles, switch normally. Almost the few troubles I had with Baton Pass on Celebi was a random stat drop for a move, or Icy Wind/Intimidate. U-turn is useful to damage somewhat Tyranitar on the switch, but I rather to keep Celebi alive than that. Hell I wish Xatu had Baton Pass with Magic Bounce because the same.

 

[haunter]

[OFF TOPIC] You don't need to OHKO Gliscor with HP ice, so any SpA investment is unnecssary. You can just run a naive nature and LO, to do 72,03% - 85,31% to the standard Gliscor. This means that Gliscor is dead if it switches into your stone edge since you'll be obviously outspeeding it. So you can still run max Atk and Spe on Terrakion and get past one of its premier counters. [END OF OFF TOPIC]

I have an important announcement: due to some technical difficulties, and due to popular demand, we've decided to abolish the new 2:1 win\loss ratio requirement for this round. As long as you qualify with more wins than losses (yes, apparently some people qualified with more losses than wins in past tests) you'll be able to vote. This means that in order to get voting requirements, you'll just need to achieve a Glicko2 rating of 2000+ and a Glicko2 deviation of 60- on both the ladders.

 

[Slimmer]

I won't repeat myself but a lot of people posted and quoted what I think, that is Keldeo got its checks counters revengekillers, the only real problem is to scout his set then realize the way to handle it with your team. Having at least 2 ways in your team to stop Keldeo (choiced or not) is not kinda impossible, considering the fact these pokèmons are not put in the team just to stop Keldeo, this is just another function they got (example? Latias, Toxicroak, Jellicent, Celebi, Slowking and many other mentioned I won't repeat). That's the same thing every teambuilder does for dragons or fightspam and so on. Ok Keldeo needs support as all other pokèmon (even I consider "weak" a team based on a single Pokèmon sweep, old strategy that's not always working due to pressure or matchup etc.). Classical example is Tyranitar+Keldeo but ok, considering your CBTar is trapping my Jellicent: you are taking off a Keldeo "counter" but ehy, you're also giving me the chance to setup a Pokèmon that can sweep also your Keldeo and let me win. The result? There's not an invincible strategy and what you can help you from a side, can ruin your match from another. The point is to think a way for throwing the metagame and all current strategies (Keldeo + Tyranitar is just one of these), and that's what I call "evolution of the metagame". All singles Pokèmon got into it and they changed evs spread, movepools and items usage past the time (Baton Pass > U-Turn Celebi is just one of the most recent "mg evolution" examples). Banhammer is just the easy way to do not turn on brains in order to realize that "evolution".

 

[SaberSeven]

[OFF TOPIC] You don't need to OHKO Gliscor with HP ice, so any SpA investment is unnecssary. You can just run a naive nature and LO, to do 72,03% - 85,31% to the standard Gliscor. This means that Gliscor is dead if it switches into your stone edge since you'll be obviously outspeeding it. So you can still run max Atk and Spe on Terrakion and get past one of its premier counters. [END OF OFF TOPIC]

I have an important announcement: due to some technical difficulties, and due to popular demand, we've decided to abolish the new 2:1 win\loss ratio requirement for this round. As long as you qualify with more wins than losses (yes, apparently some people qualified with more losses than wins in past tests) you'll be able to vote. This means that in order to get voting requirements, you'll just need to achieve a Glicko2 rating of 2000+ and a Glicko2 deviation of 60- on both the ladders.

Well this boosts my spirits up a lot.

 

[Jukain]

[OFF TOPIC] You don't need to OHKO Gliscor with HP ice, so any SpA investment is unnecssary. You can just run a naive nature and LO, to do 72,03% - 85,31% to the standard Gliscor. This means that Gliscor is dead if it switches into your stone edge since you'll be obviously outspeeding it. So you can still run max Atk and Spe on Terrakion and get past one of its premier counters. [END OF OFF TOPIC]

I have an important announcement: due to some technical difficulties, and due to popular demand, we've decided to abolish the new 2:1 win\loss ratio requirement for this round. As long as you qualify with more wins than losses (yes, apparently some people qualified with more losses than wins in past tests) you'll be able to vote. This means that in order to get voting requirements, you'll just need to achieve a Glicko2 rating of 2000+ and a Glicko2 deviation of 60- on both the ladders.

Fuck, this means I played ~25-30 extra battles for nothing.

In all seriousness, I've made my conclusion on Keldeo -- rain-boosted Hydro Pumps may be the problem, but Keldeo is not the perpetrator, and thus I will be voting no ban.

The biggest issue I have with certain Keldeo counters, like Jellicent and Slowking, is that they lose to Rotom-W, another of rain's biggest threats, as well as Thundurus-T. If you only have room for one Keldeo check/counter, pick one that can also beat Electrics. Just my two cents. [entirely irrelevant, just an opinion]

 

[Gary]

After reading a few comments on here stating that Amoonguss would find no use in OU if Keldeo is banned, I've decided to experiment a bit with Amoonguss on both ladders to try and see how effective it is in a Keldeo vs. Keldeoless environment. Honestly, who ever thinks that Amoonguss would find no niche in OU without Keldeo, I think you need to stop theorymoning and actually try it on the ladder yourself. I've used Amoonguss on many of my OU teams even before Specs Keldeo became a thing, and I've always found it extraordinarily useful against the entire rain playstyle in general. Heck, even against a lot of HO teams. Amoonguss has amazing bulk, a great defensive typing, and has provides a lot of support for teams with its amazing amount of useful resistances and its deadly Spore/Stun Spore combination. It's probably the best Breloom counter/check in the game, because even at +2 Breloom isn't doing shit to Amoonguss unless it packs Stone Edge. It can switch into Hydro Pump from Specs Politoed very easily and threaten to cripple it or hit it with a Giga Drain. Thundurus-T can't do shit to Amoonguss unless it's at +2 with HP Ice, and even then it's threatened to be 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb or HP Ice. It hard walls every variant of Rotom-W out there. Gator can't do shit to Amoonguss unless it packs Ice Punch or if its at +2, and in Torrent range, but even then with a bit of Defense investment Amoonguss can tank a hit and threaten to cripple it.

All in all, Amoonguss will still find usage in OU if Keldeo is banned, and even though there would be less of a reason TO use it, it would still be useful on teams that are very weak to rain teams or Fighting-type. Also, don't even try to tell me that Celebi outclasses it. The crippling moves it brings, it's amazing ability in the form of Regenerator, and very useful resistances while not being weak to Pursuit would give Amoonguss a big enough reason to use it in OU. It's not a top tier defensive Pokemon, but it's definitely solid in the OU metagame right now, and it shouldn't be given the cold shoulder.

 

[Spinda]

After reading a few comments on here stating that Amoonguss would find no use in OU if Keldeo is banned, I've decided to experiment a bit with Amoonguss on both ladders to try and see how effective it is in a Keldeo vs. Keldeoless environment. Honestly, who ever thinks that Amoonguss would find no niche in OU without Keldeo, I think you need to stop theorymoning and actually try it on the ladder yourself. I've used Amoonguss on many of my OU teams even before Specs Keldeo became a thing, and I've always found it extraordinarily useful against the entire rain playstyle in general. Heck, even against a lot of HO teams. Amoonguss has amazing bulk, a great defensive typing, and has provides a lot of support for teams with its amazing amount of useful resistances and its deadly Spore/Stun Spore combination. It's probably the best Breloom counter/check in the game, because even at +2 Breloom isn't doing shit to Amoonguss unless it packs Stone Edge. It can switch into Hydro Pump from Specs Politoed very easily and threaten to cripple it or hit it with a Giga Drain. Thundurus-T can't do shit to Amoonguss unless it's at +2 with HP Ice, and even then it's threatened to be 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb or HP Ice. It hard walls every variant of Rotom-W out there. Gator can't do shit to Amoonguss unless it packs Ice Punch or if its at +2, and in Torrent range, but even then with a bit of Defense investment Amoonguss can tank a hit and threaten to cripple it.

All in all, Amoonguss will still find usage in OU if Keldeo is banned, and even though there would be less of a reason TO use it, it would still be useful on teams that are very weak to rain teams or Fighting-type. Also, don't even try to tell me that Celebi outclasses it. The crippling moves it brings, it's amazing ability in the form of Regenerator, and very useful resistances while not being weak to Pursuit would give Amoonguss a big enough reason to use it in OU.

I agree completely, I was talking to a friend about it before after reading certain posts.
"Y'know, I just realised.. When I used to play stall, and Keldeo wasn't a thing yet.. I used to use Amoonguss. Not because it absorbed toxic spikes, not because it easily walled special water types, not because regenerator made it one of the best pivot switches stall has to offer, not because it has spore to effectively kill a pokemon, not because it has clear smog to shut down stat boosters, I used it because I knew Keldeo was gonna be released."

I think the utility it provides is incredibly underrated

 

[Goutland]

Amoonguss is definitely an underrated threat. One of the teams I used on suspect struggled with it because nothing on it appreciated paralysis. Especially since it's stun spore and not thunder wave, you can't switch your ground types in to prevent getting paralyzed. And of course it's a given that spore is really good. With those two moves and its great defensive typing, it makes a nice defensive pivot for stall and balanced teams alike, switching in to wall pokes and then crippling any switch in. I actually saw it more on suspect than current I think, but then again I probably just faced the same guy multiple times.

And on a side note, now that the 2:1 ratio requirement is gone, I've now went back to a trashed alt and finished reqs, with a horrible and shameful record of 32-28 on suspect compared to my 42-16 in oucurrent. My luck has been kinda shit today :/ but at least I'm done. I'll be voting no ban for reasons already rehashed a million times in this thread. Keldeo has a ton of checks and they're all very viable with utility outside of checking Keldeo. It's not that hard to fit one (or two) onto your team, and you're not put at a disadvantage if you do. Sure it might be a bit centralizing if you have to carry a check or two, but that can be said of any top threat and Keldeo is no different.

 

[Curtains]

Alright so I just got done with the requirements for the standard ladder and my first impression is that the ladder is very inflated. It look me half the time to get the requirement this round, and I ended up with a G2 of 2100 and a deviation of 60. My thoughts on keldeo didn't really change much. I ran into an expert belt set one time and defeated it pretty easily. All i did was scout it with a special defensive jirachi. Note that Keldeo already took damage from my scizor's u-turn for about 35%. Once I saw that hydro pump did like 30% I knew it was either expert belt or scarf. The expert belt user stayed in and used secret sword but I was able to get off the paralysis and cheekily iron head the keldeo to death. Keldeo in rain is much scarier to deal admittedly, but I don't think that is a Keldeo problem. I got hit with one or two powerful rain sweepers during the run. I do remember one battle an azumarill easily coming in to do tremendous damage with boosted banded aqua jets at the end. I did prepare for it but I simply underestimated how much damage it does in the rain. Anyways I am still going with my theory that keldeo is a dominate threat in certain situations but it does not pose a big enough threat to make team building impossible. The fact is that this is clearly a rain dominated metagame. This domination is shown in team building and in previous suspect history. With that being said many of its counters are already on most teams because of the necessity to fulfill the defensive requirements of a rain dominated metagame. As far as the gameplay with Keldeo goes and how cheesy this sounds I really think it comes down to just outplaying the Keldeo user. Outplaying a Keldeo user basically entails just using it's set against its self. Having something like a Toxicroak or Ammoongus makes it use it's HP or icy wind move quicker so you basically have a better feel of what set you are dealing with. Getting spikes or toxic spikes down eliminates its bulk tremendously and limits it's visits in the game to maybe 2-3 depending if you get another hit on it. So If I do complete the requirements I will be voting no ban on it because it has a number of ready made counters on teams and can easily be played around with. I also think keldeo is healthy for the metagame because it holds down certain threats like volcarona (w/o giga), lando and more. lastly, The pursuit argument doesn't fly with me because tyranitar can become such a liability when it comes to certain pokemon setting up on it and just sweeping automatically without any effort. Ask me how many times I swept with a terrakion or lucario after they used pursuit on my lati@s.

 

[chimpact]

I'm not going to lie, the suspect ladder was not fun at all. I've [literally] lost over half my battles because Scarf Rachi is super clutch with Iron Head. I changed alts and went from using sand offense to rain stall because of it alone. And laddering with stall is not fun.

I'm going to have to agree with what a lot of people are saying and say it's not really Keldeo that's the problem, but rain that's exaggerating Keldeo's strengths. Before Keldeo was around people still rain multiple water resists. But now having to run those pokemon limits team building? Counters/Checks to Keldeo can do more than just take it on. They can spinblock [ jelly], set up hazards [rose], not suck in sand [ gastro] , live forever [ amoongus/tenta] etc.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Well, now that I have somehow achieved OU voting reqs using a random Crustle / OTR Slowking / DD Latios team (OU suspect) and a team of six random RU / NU Pokemon picked by people in the Rarelyused channel, I suppose I am obligated to post. The laddering has not influenced me in the slightest due to the joke teams I used and the pathetic level of skill exemplified on the ladder, so my perspective on Keldeo will be influenced solely on my experiences in World Cup / Smogon Frontier, which are much more beneficial to look at than the ladder anyway. At first, I was on the fence and leaning towards banning Keldeo, but after actually thinking about it and reading some intelligent posts, I will have to say that Keldeo is not broken. In terms of my own experience playing, only one of my teams has actually had major problems in Keldeo, but that really does not mean much. Landorus-I was definitively broken since countering it was almost impossible, not to mention it had U-turn which pushed it over the edge. Keldeo, however, has counters in the metagame. Granted, the counters to Keldeo vary depending on the Hidden Power used, but Amoonguss, Jellicent, Toxicroak (if rain is up), and Slowking counter it basically 100% of the time. Not to mention, there's also Tentacruel, Latias, Gastrodon, and Celebi, which can handle most variants of Keldeo (not to mention, other Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Latios can be decent answers). Also, to reiterate Ojama's point: all of these Pokemon have some way to recover their health. This is huge, since it makes them much harder to weaken to the point where Keldeo can sweep. Of these, only the Latis and Slowking can actually be Pursuited by Tyranitar, and in the case of Latios and Slowking, its basically a 50/50 anyway. Keldeo is useful in the metagame and helps defeat a variety of threats.

These Pokemon are also good in the metagame even if Keldeo does not exist (except for maybe, Slowking); they are not some obscure counters like Cresselia was to Salamence in OU that otherwise would be completely useless. This is the main point I want to emphasize here, since all of these Pokemon are USEFUL even if Keldeo was not around. Keldeo does not force a player to run otherwise terrible Pokemon for the sake of beating it; that would make it broken. Tentacruel is rain's best Rapid Spinner, Gastrodon walls Pokemon such as Thundurus-T, Amoonguss helps defeat offense with the help of Spore, Toxicroak is a great way to beat rain, Latias, Latios, and Rotom-W are easily some of the best Pokemon in the metagame, Jellicent is easily the best spinblocker, etc. Keldeo can be beaten with Pokemon that would otherwise be good for a team anyway; it does not truly centralize anything. It is possible to counter Keldeo, its checks and counters are all good in the tier regardless, and it does NOT strain teambuilding like Landorus-I.

 

[malefic]

Having achieved requirements on the standard ladder I think I'll post my opinions regarding this suspect:

• broadly speaking each archetypical playstyle has ways to deal with keldeo. sand offence abuses pokemon with boosted speed read: stoutland, such that keldeo cannot rampantly wreak havoc. pokes like sashzam also stand in the way of a keldeo sweep. otr reuniclus can set up on keldeo and subsequently turn the battle in its user's favor
• sand and rain stall employ pokes like tenta, amoonguss, jellicent and latias all of which wall keldeo rather soundly + are able to respond with moves that damage it significantly (or in tenta's case set up hazards as well). as mentioned these pokes all have reliable recovery and more importantly, are staples on sand/rain stall teams with or w/o keldeo as they are top-tier defensive threats that wall a significant number of pokemon in the ou meta
• rain offence teams will mostly include keldeo anyway and in rain offence v rain offence which team comes out on top is determined by skill luck and teambuilding
• hyper offence can deal with keldeo by hazard stacking + priority, scarfed pokes, pokemon like latios and the list goes on, depending on what item opposing keldeo runs. setting up on other pokemon with pokes like passhorona or breloom (i personally used an underrated but effective set of agility acrobat gliscor) then plowing through keldeo is also an option
• lol sun owns keldeo

tl;dr keldeo doesn't constrain teambuilding; the fact that any good team should have 2 (or more but that is unnecessary) pokes that match up well against keldeo is no fault of keldeo's because any good team should have 2 or more pokes that match up well against any top-tier pokemon in the meta which keldeo by all means is. also that keldeo is near ubiquitous in rain offence (hyper offence?) teams does not make it broken - usage does not equate to brokenness read: scizor - speaking of which, keldeo if anything helps check the rampant usage of scizor (as well as reduce spam of pokes like alakazam as mentioned by others previously) which creates a more balanced meta.

keldeo is a metagame-defining pokemon (following in the footsteps of sciz and terrak before it) with significant offensive presence but is not without its fair share of equally significant checks and counters;this is analogous to the fast-paced offensive nature of the meta, which at the same time is finally achieving a stability that will hopefully persist till a new gen of pokemon and by extension a new meta is born in the near future. no ban.

 

[Schpoonman]

Trick Room Reuniclus is a really poor answer to Keldeo. You're 2HKOd by Hydro Pump from the Scarf set, 2HKOd by Hydro Pump and HP Ghost/Bug from the Expert Belt set, and 2HKOd by Hydro Pump, HP Ghost/Bug, and Surf from the Specs set. Reuniclus has to come in on a resisted attack or revenge and hope that it's not Specs Pump (or just Hydro Pump in the rain) because that does 82% minimum. Being vulnerable to Keldeo's strongest STAB is not a good way to go about checking it.

 

[Goutland]

No one said TR Reuniclus is switching in to Keldeo directly. Reuniclus offensively checks Keldeo rather than defensively checking it, meaning it can't switch in directly and beat it, but if you get it in safely (through a u-turn, baton pass, after a sack, etc) you force it out or kill it. However, I wouldn't say Reuniclus is a good mid game answer to Keldeo, since it really needs mons like Jirachi and Scizor weakened or out of the way before it can really put pressure Keldeo. Otherwise your opponent will just save Keldeo and weaken Reuniclus to the point where you can't set up TR again and just start wreaking havoc again. It's more of a late game poke that can sweep past it rather than actively check it like Amoonguss. But usually offensive teams have several pokes that can do this or set up on a choice locked Keldeo, so it's not the biggest deal. You should never have Reuniclus as your only answer to Keldeo.

 

[Schpoonman]

The difference being that Scizor moves first with Bullet Punch, whereas if Keldeo isn't choice-locked into Secret Sword/Icy Wind/generic non-SE Hidden Power, Reuniclus is getting slapped before he can set up Trick Room.

 

[Shurtugal]

He could just opt to Psyshock and not TR so its a 50 / 50...


But otherwise I agree.