You could also run Rain Stall and never even consider using Tornadus-T. The point is that the argument is bankrupt and shows nothing other than the community's desire to stick with what they know already works, if anything.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
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But you can run a rain team. Changing the weather is not the /only/ strategy you can utilize to take on the bird. It was simply one suggested (and viable) option. There is nothing to say you /have/ to do that, or that you can't use other checks/counters/whatever to get around it.
And I have to say, I have yet to see a single rain dance tornadus-t (besides the one I ran myself for a period of time before changing to specs), and if it is running rain dance, it isn't running taunt or heat wave or sub or whatever people run on torn-t now, meaning that it now has more counters/checks.
What many people aren't taking into account, and this has been mentioned, is that tornadus does not have 7 moveslots. It would be lovely if it could run sleep talk+taunt+rain dance+hurricane+focus blast+u-turn+hp ice, but it can't. And that means that each tornadus that is faced will have /different/ checks and counters, but more checks and counters than are being portrayed in this thread.
I would guess it was ignored because it's fairly unarguable. You're just right, and there's little way around it. Rain, and specifically Tornadus-T, requires too many dedicated counters to be considered truly balanced, and the argument that banning Tornadus-T will make other things broken is entirely without merit. If banning a broken poke makes a different poke or strategy broken, then we'll fix that too. I'm not content with a stable, crappy meta, where we keep broken threats just to limit the brokenness of other threats. Also, Tornadus-T is a pretty garbage check to Keldeo, considering that it can't really switch in on it, and it gets outsped. The consensus I've gotten from this thread is that most people accept that Tornadus-T is just too good at what it does to be balanced, and that Keldeo isn't quite dominant enough to justify banning it, and it's pretty tough to dispute either of those resolutions.
I think I used Hurricane over 75% of the time when I was using Specs Tornadus-T. The only other move I really used was focus Blast to catch Tyranitar or Spd. Heatran. Even specs Tornadus with 1 move would be pretty good. Tornadus-T has the opposite of 4 moveslot syndrome.
We are not arguing to keep Tornadus-T to check Keldeo. We are defending Tornadus-T, because it has many hard counters and several more checks, not something that you can say for other non-broken OU threats.
If you think that you need to fit Jirachi on every team to not lose to Tornadus-T, then you obviously haven't adapted well to this metagame. Such conclusion also implies that HO would lose to Torn-T, which have been refuted just a few pages ago. Even offensive mons like Garchomp and Terrakion can tank a hit from LO Torn-T - that's how disappointing Torn-T's Hurricane can be. Maybe if Torn-T had 125 SpA AND 121 Spe, it'll be a Darkrai incarnate, but atm it's simply a faster, hardier, and less powerful Tornadus-I, a Pokemon that currently resides in UU and were perfectly manageable in BW1 OU.
Lavos Spawn, your Genesect and Tornadus-T comparison is flawed in many respects. For one, you mention that Genesect's Thunder cannot 2HKO Heatran, when in fact a Modest LO RP Genesect's Thunder easily 2HKOs after a SpA boost with Rocks. Not to mention, Genesect can run HP Water in the Rain and easily 2HKO Heatran without a DL boost (and honestly, the best Rain RP Genesect has HP Water / Thunder / Bug Buzz). Genesect is a versatile beast that can even overcome its traditional counters, much unlike Torn-T, a one-trick pony. Torn-T aint getting past Jirachi / Rotom-W / Bronzong / Metagross / Zapdos / Rotom-H on its own (ie needs team support). Hell it even needs some help dealing with non-resists, such as specially defensive Ferrothorn before it can even attempt to sweep. Couple this with the usual SR and strong priority user (not Mach Punch) / faster Pokemon (ie Jolteon / any Scarfer faster than TTar / Swift Swimmer on a non-Rain team) and a bulky team have Torn-T solidly covered. You don't even have to win the weather war, lol - Torn-T aint no Excadrill, a Pokemon that is TRULY UNTOUCHABLE in sand (Torn-T's 375 Spe is nothing we can't handle by now)
So offensive teams can deal with Torn-T and bulkier teams have plenty of hard counters and checks to choose from (counter and checks that can do MUCH MORE than simply fending off Torn-T). I don't see the issue here, and it seems like some of the recent posters are beginning to feel the same.
If you think that you need to fit Jirachi on every team to not lose to Tornadus-T, then you obviously haven't adapted well to this metagame. Such conclusion also implies that HO would lose to Torn-T, which have been refuted just a few pages ago. Even offensive mons like Garchomp and Terrakion can tank a hit from LO Torn-T - that's how disappointing Torn-T's Hurricane can be. Maybe if Torn-T had 125 SpA AND 121 Spe, it'll be a Darkrai incarnate, but atm it's simply a faster, hardier, and less powerful Tornadus-I, a Pokemon that currently resides in UU and were perfectly manageable in BW1 OU.
Lavos Spawn, your Genesect and Tornadus-T comparison is flawed in many respects. For one, you mention that Genesect's Thunder cannot 2HKO Heatran, when in fact a Modest LO RP Genesect's Thunder easily 2HKOs after a SpA boost with Rocks. Not to mention, Genesect can run HP Water in the Rain and easily 2HKO Heatran without a DL boost (and honestly, the best Rain RP Genesect has HP Water / Thunder / Bug Buzz). Genesect is a versatile beast that can even overcome its traditional counters, much unlike Torn-T, a one-trick pony. Torn-T aint getting past Jirachi / Rotom-W / Bronzong / Metagross / Zapdos / Rotom-H on its own (ie needs team support). Hell it even needs some help dealing with non-resists, such as specially defensive Ferrothorn before it can even attempt to sweep. Couple this with the usual SR and strong priority user (not Mach Punch) / faster Pokemon (ie Jolteon / any Scarfer faster than TTar / Swift Swimmer on a non-Rain team) and a bulky team have Torn-T solidly covered. You don't even have to win the weather war, lol - Torn-T aint no Excadrill, a Pokemon that is TRULY UNTOUCHABLE in sand (Torn-T's 375 Spe is nothing we can't handle by now)
So offensive teams can deal with Torn-T and bulkier teams have plenty of hard counters and checks to choose from (counter and checks that can do MUCH MORE than simply fending off Torn-T). I don't see the issue here, and it seems like some of the recent posters are beginning to feel the same.
Agreeing with Pocket.
It seems as if a lot of the arguments for TT's ban is that "it can play around its counters."
But that is not arguing for TT's viability/brokeness, it is arguing for the skill of the player behind it.
Tornadus is a pokemon that could easily be spammed without skill... but when it is, it is just what all of the paper arguments are expressing: a 1 trick pony with multiple counters.
It truly isn't fair to say, "Well, what if tornadus predicts the jirachi switch and u-turns to dugtrio who is running a ground gem to 1hko with earthquake and then they send in rotom-w who is a very nice counter but tornadus plays really well so it dies anyways."
It seems as if a lot of the arguments for TT's ban is that "it can play around its counters."
But that is not arguing for TT's viability/brokeness, it is arguing for the skill of the player behind it.
Tornadus is a pokemon that could easily be spammed without skill... but when it is, it is just what all of the paper arguments are expressing: a 1 trick pony with multiple counters.
It truly isn't fair to say, "Well, what if tornadus predicts the jirachi switch and u-turns to dugtrio who is running a ground gem to 1hko with earthquake and then they send in rotom-w who is a very nice counter but tornadus plays really well so it dies anyways."
I don't really think people are saying this. The point is that Tornadus doesn't really need to predict to beat its counters. It spams Hurricane, it U-Turns after you bring in a flying resist, it heals back to full health while your counter takes hazard damage (say, SR + 1 layer of Spikes), and you can bring in your flying resist counter (Dugtrio being the common one as it traps Jirachi and while it won't kill, it does enough to cripple Jirachi that it no longer threatens Tornadus / can switch in as effectively). Meanwhile, your counter has a 30% chance to be afflicted with confusion, thus creating the possibility that it will be unable to use its recovery move to heal on the U-Turn, which usually means Tornadus will win.
The most frustrating thing, is that it can do this over and over again, due to regenerator, and wear down its counters. Rotom-W for example, is stuck with Pain Split for recovery, which is unreliable and easy to exploit. It takes no skill whatsoever to abuse Tornadus, since its just "click Hurricane, then U-Turn out" rinse and repeat. Its safe, simple, and utterly, utterly risk free.
Regenerator does not make it imprevious though. With sr up, it is healing ~8% by switching out which is really not that game changing. It may be a lovely pivot and be able to just switch out of scarfers/priority, but I know that if i had a tornadus and my opponent sent out their scarf keldeo, I wouldn't want anything on my team to take the surf/hpump that was coming. Tornadus' saving often comes at the expense of another team member, meaning that not only can tornadus wear down the other team, but tornadus' team can be worn down just as easily.
On another note, I've found dual sand to be a very effective strategy in the meta, and I don't really understand the "tornadus makes it super hard to change the weather arguments." It it comes into your ttar, it is obviously going to superpower or fblast so, going along with all of the arguments concerning tornadus switching out of its threats, switch to a different poke. Ninetales makes hurricane turn into a 50% accurate move. It is still just as easy/difficult to preserve weather with or without tornadus-t.
ginganinja, you're overselling Regenerator on Tornadus-T:
Let's take your scenario: Tornadus-T switchin in on SR, attack twice, and switch back out. What would its health be when it comes back out again?
100 - 25 (SR) - 10x2 (LO) + 33 (Regen) - 25 (SR) = 63%
63% =/= 100%
You can pack spin support, but that essentially means an additional team slot used for Rapid Spinning (let's pack on the Electric weakness!) and also debunks the myth that Tornadus-T would be good on ANY rain team.
You also fail to consider the fact that counters to Torn-T have teammates, too. Rotom-W can easily be paired with a Wish passer to keep itself healthy. You also seem to make out Rotom-W player as a shitty player - if the players are at an equal skill level Rotom-W would solidly fend off Tornadus-T long enough to prevent it from doing anything for the long haul.
Let's take your scenario: Tornadus-T switchin in on SR, attack twice, and switch back out. What would its health be when it comes back out again?
100 - 25 (SR) - 10x2 (LO) + 33 (Regen) - 25 (SR) = 63%
63% =/= 100%
You can pack spin support, but that essentially means an additional team slot used for Rapid Spinning (let's pack on the Electric weakness!) and also debunks the myth that Tornadus-T would be good on ANY rain team.
You also fail to consider the fact that counters to Torn-T have teammates, too. Rotom-W can easily be paired with a Wish passer to keep itself healthy. You also seem to make out Rotom-W player as a shitty player - if the players are at an equal skill level Rotom-W would solidly fend off Tornadus-T long enough to prevent it from doing anything for the long haul.
Lol
Standard Rain often packs a spinner, its not like Tentacruel or Starmie are hard to fit onto a rain team or anything. You know damn well I can fit spinners on my rain team and still rape shit. Don't act like rain teams don't have room for a spinner (or its not common) when Tentacruel was Politoeds 3rd most common partner on suspect -__-.
Also the electric weakness is not as bad as you claim, cmon man T_T.
And no, I don't make Rotom-W sound like a shitty player, I have just played enough matchs to know that while SDef Rotom-W can hold off a Tornadus-T it doesn't technically "beat it" since it lacks recovery which is dam easy to exploit. Come on man, you have watched me battle. Im not world class but you have seen me use Tornadus-T against Rotom-W. and gone up against Tornadus-T with SDef Rotom-W, and its hard yakka for the Rotom-W player when you lose like 33% switching in.
Also RP HP Water Genesect is not the best Rain Genesect T_T
cmon ginganinja... -_-
the standard Rain team is so flipping weak to Electric mons man. I've destroyed many Torn-T Rain teams with Thundurus-T, Magnezone, or hell even SubCM Jirachi - it's easily exploitable. You should try it some time!
And I've also been handling Tornadus-T without Rotom-W / Jirachi; it's not THAT hard man. Rotom-W just makes it easier to beat.
lol...
GINGA EDIT
I bet ur opponents were garbage =]
Pocket EDIT
nah ur opponents were garbage :s
the standard Rain team is so flipping weak to Electric mons man. I've destroyed many Torn-T Rain teams with Thundurus-T, Magnezone, or hell even SubCM Jirachi - it's easily exploitable. You should try it some time!
And I've also been handling Tornadus-T without Rotom-W / Jirachi; it's not THAT hard man. Rotom-W just makes it easier to beat.
lol...
GINGA EDIT
I bet ur opponents were garbage =]
Pocket EDIT
nah ur opponents were garbage :s
Well that's wrong. The standard rain team, whatever you think that is, isn't weak to thun-t at all. If by standard you're referring to the trash lineup of poli/keldeo/torn-t/tenta/rachi/Ferro, yeah that's a bit thun-t weak, but who actually runs that knowing full well they get shit on by one of the top 20 used pokes in the game? Plain stupid if you ask me. Stop generalizing
Also you must be facing some god awful players on ladder (imagine that!) if they are using torn-t in rain, you lack rotom-w or rachi, and you're still winning consistently. Either that or all your pokes are scarfed or outspeed which is highly unlikely.
You aren't offering any refutation as to why torn-t is not broken other than "it's countered by rachi pls no ban" and "ladder players can't win with it pls no ban". Everything has at least one counter, for torn-t it happens to be rachi. Problem is, rachi is the ONLY WAY to stop the bird consistently. What do you propose we do then? The options are:
1. we all run sdef rachi to counter torn-t, eliminating all diversity from OU
2. we all run hyper offense and this meta gets even worse
3. we ban torn-t
real tough choice there
4. We all run a few checks to torn-t (as is what we must do for many metagame threats) and barely hamper our teambuilding at all.
Priority users (scizor, weavile, mamo, dnite), scarved pokes (keldeo, terrak, etc.), faster pokes (torn-t~, jolteon, weavile), and straight up walls (ferrothorn, jirachi, blissey, chansey, rotom-w, etc.) can all deal with tornadus to an extent.
Tornadus-T simply has too many checks imo to consider it broken.
Not to mention choosing any different weather will make TT's life significantly more difficult.
I wouldn't name any people, but I've swept some of you guys with Thundurus-T, lol.
And if you really think SDef Rachi is the only way to counter Tornadus-T, you need to start thinking outside of your apparently small box and stop limiting yourself to bog standards. Because Jirachi being the only answer to Tornadus-T is one of the dumbest thing I've heard: Read thishttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4519541&postcount=507 please
ala: Read my post that I linked here and you'll know (if rotom-w, jirachi, bronzong isn't good enough for ya -_-;;)
And if you really think SDef Rachi is the only way to counter Tornadus-T, you need to start thinking outside of your apparently small box and stop limiting yourself to bog standards. Because Jirachi being the only answer to Tornadus-T is one of the dumbest thing I've heard: Read thishttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4519541&postcount=507 please
ala: Read my post that I linked here and you'll know (if rotom-w, jirachi, bronzong isn't good enough for ya -_-;;)
You keep saying there's other options besides Jirachi, Rotom-W, and Bronzong. Well don't keep us in suspense Pocket, please tell us what they are! Maybe your argument will hold more weight if you can give some examples rather than saying "think outside the box".
inb4 metagross, rotom-h, some other irrelevant pokemon that nobody uses and is obsolete in ou
inb4 metagross, rotom-h, some other irrelevant pokemon that nobody uses and is obsolete in ou
The problem is that Tornadus-T simply gets its kill and switchs out when you bring in your revenge killer. Other pokemon can do this sure, but what makes Trnadus-T special its the fact that it loses nothing in switching out (provided it has a spinner or its Specs). Salamence can switch in and out grabbing a KO here and there, but it loses 10% per attack if SR isn't up, if SR is up it limited far more than Tornadus (and Tornadus is faster). Lets go onto your other checks and counters
Ferro gets 2KOed iirc, Jirachi wins but thats already been discussed, Chansey and Blissey get Taunted and beaten down with Hurricane + SUperpower, and Rotom-W loses (most experienced players believe this one). Its not even as if Tornadus-T is frail either, its quite capable of surviving super effective attacks which makes it even harder to deal with.
EDIT
And Rotom-H sucks as a Tornadus-T counter when its SR weak and still having the problems of Rotom-W.
You're dead wrong there. I can't run a couple of supposed "checks" (which you never actually list, lol) on my weatherless team, or any of my teams for that matter, and call myself good against Tornadus-T. The thing is just too durable. I'll bet you any sum of money that none of your proposed "checks" have U-Turn and Regenerator together, because only Torn-T was lucky enough to receive that gamebreaking combination from the creators of Pokemon. If we were talking about ANY OTHER POKEMON in this same context, I would agree with you 100%; a multitude of checks is usually good enough compensation for the loss of one hard counter. However, this is Torn-T we're talking about. The thing is so hard to wear down and so easy to get OHKO'd by. Propose one solid, reliable, OU-viable hard counter to Torn-T, just one (whose name is not Jirachi), and I will quit posting in this suspect thread. Otherwise, I'll keep telling you: our options consist of banning the bird or running SDef Rachi on every team. The third option is the worst by far, and I hope you're not considering it; hyper offense against hyper offense in BW2 is a coin flip at best for both parties.
Let me put it to you simply. I consider myself a pretty decent BW2 player. Every single one of my successful *current* BW2 teams falls under one of the three conditions:
a) It has a Bronzong or Rotom-W, sometimes both, with Wish support somewhere else on the team.
b) It has Specially Defensive Jirachi with Wish and Protect.
c) It is a hyper-offensive team.
Otherwise, I'm outright screwed by Tornadus-T. It's that simple to understand. Torn-T existing in this metagame is forcing my teams to fall under one or more of the three above categories I list. Otherwise, the team will lose to Rain Offense packing the bird, and that's a fact.
Just reading through the thread and this made me laugh, hard. Seriously dude?
Either way, I feel that with the metagame always getting stronger, Big Bird just isn't as threatening as it used to be. I honestly can't tell you what I normally use to check it, because I'm so used to it being a non-issue that I don't even have to think about it anymore. Maybe I don't run into rain as much as everyone else, but I feel that with the constant power creep of OU, Tornadus-T isn't nearly as threatening now as it was when it was first introduced. As for the pony? Seriously? Not ban worthy at all, plenty of things - GOOD things that have use outside of just countering keldeo - can come in and take hits. Amoongus, Celebi, and Jellicent are very usable pokemon that can all take on Keldeo. I really don't see either of these getting banned this round, but weirder things have happened.
Ferro gets 2hkoed by specs, but that's why it is a check, even when worn down a significant amount. It can tank a hurricane and gyro ball, doing a very nice sum of damage.
Chans+Bliss is assuming it has taunt. Can't be:
Torn-T @ Life Orb+Choice Specs
-Hurricane
-Hp Ice
-Taunt
-Rain Dance
-Superpower
-Focus Blast
-U-turn
And they still 3hko with seismic toss, and can simply recover
Blissey:
Detailed Result:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 0 HP/252 SpDef Blissey (+SpDef) : 20.43% - 24.12%
6-7 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Detailed Result:
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs 0 HP/255 Def Blissey: 68.2% - 80.18%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
82.18%-98.05% Total
So never a 2hko (especially with protect and/or softboiled if non-taunt)
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 0 HP/252 SpDef Blissey (+SpDef) : 20.43% - 24.12%
6-7 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Detailed Result:
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs 0 HP/255 Def Blissey: 68.2% - 80.18%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
82.18%-98.05% Total
So never a 2hko (especially with protect and/or softboiled if non-taunt)
Chansey is obviously bulkier
Rotom-w can easily tank a hurricane and ko with thunderbolt
Not to mention the many offensive pokes who can take a nuetral hurricane and ko back
How the hell is it a "check" if it's easily 2HKO'd by Specs Hurricane and LO Hurricane + LO Focus Blast accomplishes the same result? One-on-one matchup, 100% Torn-T (LO or Specs) vs 100% standard Ferrothorn, the bird almost ALWAYS wins. The only way Ferrothorn's winning is if it a) has Gyro Ball AND b) LO Hurricane gets low damage rolls both times. Ferro will not beat the Specs set without a Gyro Ball crit or Thunder Wave plus a full paralysis the next turn. And that's just one-on-one; normally, the situation is Ferrothorn switching into Tornadus-T and taking a 55% Hurricane to the face. That's not a check, that's yet another thing Torn-T steamrolls.
Robert, Lanturn is a good check to the three pokes you mention, but its lack of recovery and the fact that Ferrothorn takes a dump on its life prevents it from being too great in OU. It has so many checks and so little things it actually checks that in my opinion it's not worth using unless you're really desperate to check those three things.
O.k, I Hurricane as you bring in BLisssey, you take Stealth Rock + Hurricane damage, and then I KO with Superpower (according to your calculations). Even if you got like 6 Protects in a row or something, I still win by clicking Hurricane once or so, Taunting, U-Turning out and beating you next time I switch in.
With Chansey, I Hurricane, Taunt, and U-Turn out, fully healing off all your damage. Rinse and Repeat. Chansey loses (eventually).
Um...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4519698&postcount=515
But in any case:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure (Lightning Rod needs to hurry)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spd
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Toxic
- Hidden Power (Ice)
Detailed Result:
252 SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Zapdos (+SpDef) : 26.3% - 30.99%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Does quite a large number on standard ladder-rain. Takes anything Torn-T can throw at it easily and can roost it off.
Let me rephrase. Not a check persay, but a way to deal with torn-t, and many of its teammates.
As you mentioned, ferrothorn can take a specs hurricane and then paralyze torn-t.
Which, if you didn't notice, renders it virtually useless. Now I can switch in my (insert any one of the many pokes who can tank a hurricane) and outspeed and ko. Switching it out would make it a liability as you lose momentum and it is virtually useless with the nonexistant speed.
Besides the fact that chansey has 5 other teammates, and you are assuming the other player is godawful. If you do the same thing multiple times, why would they continue to let it happen? I'd just switch in my scizor on the taunt and procede to either bullet punch or u-turn.
Congratulations, you just found a Pokemon that's weak to Stealth Rocks, can't do shit to Ferrothorn, has a terrible EV spread (though that's probably your fault), and who even 4th gen proponents of it say is horrible in BW2. Scroll back a few pages, a couple people were talking about SDef Zapdos as a Torn-T check and several DPP players admitted it sucks in this metagame. I'm obliged to agree with them, since I've only seen two teams in the past six months using this thing successfully and both of them had other Torn-T checks on the same team (Bronzong and Jirachi respectively). Zapdos faces the same exact problem as Rotom-W, except to a greater extent because it's weak to SR. Let's play out a little scenario here:
Life Orb Torn-T is out on the opponent's side of the field and rocks are up. You switch in Zapdos and take a modest 25% from Hurricane. Now you're at...50%. Torn-T clicks U-Turn and switches out to a Zapdos counter as you Roost. Now you're at slightly less than 100% health, rocks are still up, and you're staring a counter in the face. How did that work out for you? Mmm...not so well.
Sorry, try again!
Life Orb Torn-T is out on the opponent's side of the field and rocks are up. You switch in Zapdos and take a modest 25% from Hurricane. Now you're at...50%. Torn-T clicks U-Turn and switches out to a Zapdos counter as you Roost. Now you're at slightly less than 100% health, rocks are still up, and you're staring a counter in the face. How did that work out for you? Mmm...not so well.
Sorry, try again!
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