np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[SHUCKLE MAN]

If we really wanted to nerf rain, we'd buff other weathers

There's no way to "buff" other weathers (without doing something ridiculous like having Groudon, Blaziken and Excadrill unbanned).

It's a shame Poliwag and Poliwhirl didn't get Drizzle really. Having to use Poliwag as a rain starter (and essentially having a 5-man team) might've been enough of a nerf.

But I definitely think banning the broken rain abusers is the best course of action given the situation we're in.

 

[doublenikesocks]

last gen Chomp did not need sand to sweep entire teams. it was faster than every dragon, or ice type and often need 2 counters on a team just to stop it. And thats just with Ttar. Nothing else. Tornadus needs Jirachi and Rotom to be dead to even try to sweep. Even then, there are threats that he can't ko. And if he doesn't kill, he can't sweep.

 

[Lavos]

last gen Chomp did not need sand to sweep entire teams. it was faster than every dragon, or ice type and often need 2 counters on a team just to stop it. And thats just with Ttar. Nothing else. Tornadus needs Jirachi and Rotom to be dead to even try to sweep. Even then, there are threats that he can't ko. And if he doesn't kill, he can't sweep.

oh, you mean like chomp needed skarm and zong to be dead in order to sweep? there's a pattern here, problem is you're ignoring it because your inherent bias is preventing you from thinking objectively. torn-t has power that exceeds even that of dp chomp. better stab move, faster, doesn't need setup to be a threat, and u-turn plus regenerator to top it all off. saying chomp > bird is a worthless endeavor, and it doesn't matter anyways because the therian is broken in the current meta and that's what counts. read my previous posts if you need confirmation of this.

 

[doublenikesocks]

Ok first of all I don't have a bias. This metagame sucks and I can't deny that but what I'm trying to say is that Tornadus does not compare to DP chomp. It is so much weaker and has more checks/counters than DP chomp. You had to run 2 counters to Garchomp but you can run one check to Tornadus and be fine now. Thats the difference, and why I think that Tornadus is not broken.


EDIT: Another one of my points I made earlier in this thread, that was ignored, is that were basically banning BW2 if we ban these lol

 

[superbadd]

how does garchomp fit as a sweeper if torn-t does not? chomp needed sand to sweep as much as the bird needs rain to do so. idk where you're coming from with this. and nerfing rain by buffing other weathers is a horrible idea. we all saw what happened with excadrill.

wtf? garchomp doesn't need sand to do anything. It has swords dance and can maul through its "counters" with appropriate coverage. Tornadus-t can't do that. Nor can it set up and plow through teams as easily. It NEEDS support. That's they key difference. Since drizzle is what supposedly puts it over the top, it's clearly not Tornadus that's the issue.

 

[Lavos]

i wasn't around in the chomp era but i have played some dp games with chomp legal and my shed skarm never had trouble walling it forever. the same cannot be said for torn-t's checks. zong, rotom-w, they're both worn down far too easily. even sdef rachi, widely considered the best check, can be confuse-haxed and trapped by dugtrio. let's face it: nothing in this game is 100% safe from tornadus-t.

and whether you think we're “banning bw2” or not is irrelevant. it doesn't matter what game these suspects are from, if they're broken, they ought to be banned.

superbadd, remind me how chomp beats zong without multiple sand veil activations? and no it's not heatproof.

 

[Electrolyte]

I'm not too sure I agree with what you're saying, doublenikesocks. Aside from your comment on how the metagame sucks, which already shows your bias, what you're saying about needing just one counter / check to Tornadus is not true. Well played Tornadus is extremely hard to handle, mainly because of Regenerator and U-Turn. Really, you have to be either steel type, Rotom-W, or a blob to be able to wall Tornadus, because it's so damn powerful and fast. This makes the idea of countering Tornadus with just one pokemon highly unlikely- as there's nothing stopping your opponent from switching to a trapper and knocking ou / crippling your only answer. Tornadus's counters are also unlike Keldeo's in that they rely on typing AND bulk to take hits- which often sacrifices firepower, forcing teams to use slow walls in order to handle Torn, and this really throws off teams.

You can't compare Chomp and Tornadus either, as Chomp's counters were all flyers, making Magnezone the only way to trap it's counters, but that sometimes opened up more weaknesses. With Tornadus, you can just slap in Duggy or Gothi and your team will actually benefit more- as trappers help win weather wars. Also, Chomp isn't fast, it doesn't have easy recovery, nor does it have pivotal moves. You can't compare them.

 

[superbadd]

you're forgetting fire blast which 2hko's skarm. (neutral LO garchomp's fireblast does 50.9% min which is a guaranteed 2HKO after SR)

oh come on. don't use hax as an issue for banning something. everything can hax its way to victory. Tornadus-t is no different and shouldn't be given special treatment because of it.

Edit: also when discussing counters you shouldn't always assume that the person handling tornadus-t is a great player and likewise you shouldn't assume the one who has the counter is a bad player. "well played" is entirely subjective. assume both players are on par, that would make looking at it more objectively.

 

[Lavos]

fire blast most certainly does not 2hko skarm without serious investment. now can we please return to 2012 and discuss the suspects at hand? thanks

 

[doublenikesocks]

i wasn't around in the chomp era but i have played some dp games with chomp legal and my shed skarm never had trouble walling it forever. the same cannot be said for torn-t's checks. zong, rotom-w, they're both worn down far too easily. even sdef rachi, widely considered the best check, can be confuse-haxed and trapped by dugtrio. let's face it: nothing in this game is 100% safe from tornadus-t.

and whether you think we're “banning bw2” or not is irrelevant. it doesn't matter what game these suspects are from, if they're broken, they ought to be banned.

Yes, but if Tornadus-T beats Jirachi that is hax. Hax does not make a Pokemon broken, look at paraflinch jirachi. You can't say "Critical hits are hax and they allow a poke to beat its counters lets ban the poke that got that crit."
And with Tornadus wearing out its counters, any poke can do that. Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Volcarona, Lucario, all of these pokemon can wear out their counters and sweep.

I never said banning BW2 was relevant. I was just pointing it out.

 

[Lavos]

you ignore the dugtrio and magnezone factors, arguments that you can't refute.

the pokes you mention all lack u-turn (except lolvolcarona), base 121 speed, and regenerator. those three things are what set torn-t apart from any other threat you'd care to list. i state this about 8 or 9 different times throughout this thread, but guys like you keep popping up everywhere so i'll repeat myself.

what i really want to know is: what's the alternative to banning torn-t? will you have me run sdef rachi on every team from now on? that's called overcentralizing, and it's why we banned exca.

and as a side note, if it's irrelevant, why are you posting about it

 

[doublenikesocks]

you ignore the dugtrio and magnezone factors, arguments that you can't refute.

the pokes you mention all lack u-turn (except lolvolcarona), base 121 speed, and regenerator. those three things are what set torn-t apart from any other threat you'd care to list. i state this about 8 or 9 different times throughout this thread, but guys like you keep popping up everywhere so i'll repeat myself.

and as a side note, if it's irrelevant, why are you posting about it

Yes I can't refute Dugtrio or Magnezone. That is because that is not an argument at all. We are looking at Tornadus-T and Politoad, not Tornadus-T + Magnezone/Dugtrio. That is support, and if 2 Pokemon on a team are completely dedicated to supporting Tornadus-T. Therefore Tornadus requires too much support than is required to be broken.

Now for your other three points, they are valid. I cannot deny that Tornadus-T has excellent speed, a top of the abilty, and creates momentum like Genesect. Actually, comparing it to Genesect is the best argument your side could make. It is too much like Genesect to be ignored: blazing speed, extreme power, a single hard counter, and a fantastic movepool. This has caused me to rethink my position, thanks.

EDIT to your edit: read above


EDIT to below: exactly, almost every team can fit a check or counter to Tornadus. It's not that hard to fit a good pokemon in Weavile, blobs, Jirachi, Heatran, Bronzong, Rotom, Jolteon, Scarf Keldeo, Laturn (lol), or Thunderus-T.

 

[superbadd]

Who cares about dugtrio and magnezone? They are a form of support. They don't make tornadus-t broken. What kind of argument is this? the alternative to banning tornadus-t? if you're running defensive teams jirachi and the blobs are always on there, sometimes zapdos and rotom-w too. Balanced teams? Priority and bulky attacker that can take a hit and strike back. HO, scarfers and faster threats/priority(weavile, jolteon, ect) Other weather teams(change the weather). It's not that hard to deal with, seriously.

 

[Lavos]

doublenikesocks just made a great point. torn-t is perfectly comparable to genesect in this situation. both have great speed and offensive stats, both have u-turn, both have an ability that greatly enhances their sweeping potential, and both have one solid counter that's trapped and killed by dugtrio. the similarities are almost scary.

only one problem: genesect is uber, but torn-t is still having a field day in ou.

maybe we need to do something about that.

 

[doublenikesocks]

doublenikesocks just made a great point. torn-t is perfectly comparable to genesect in this situation. both have great speed and offensive stats, both have u-turn, both have an ability that greatly enhances their sweeping potential, and both have one solid counter that's trapped and killed by dugtrio. the similarities are almost scary.

only one problem: genesect is uber, but torn-t is still having a field day in ou.

maybe we need to do something about that.

Actually I was thinking maybe a suspect test on Trapping Abilities could be done. Not the most desirable, but considering is sending two pokes to ubers that could have some merit. Just a thought, not asking for it.

I now agree that Tornadus is broken based on the Genesect comparison. Just saying that Tornadus has more checks than Gene ever did.

 

[superbadd]

only one problem: genesect is uber, but torn-t is still having a field day in ou.

maybe we need to do something about that.

That's a hardcore fallacy right there. Just because something is comparable to an uber doesn't make it ban worthy. Now you're just desperate to find a reason to ban it.
There's key differences that set those two apart. Genesect has versatility, can hit almost everything super effectively/neutrally and can abuse almost all weather conditions to its favor. Tornadus-t needs politoad and cannot abuse u-turn the same way genesect can. Also genesect is MUCH more powerful 120 spA after a download boost is crazy strong. On top of that having stab on u-turn makes spamming it much easier. Tornadus has more speed, is SR weak, but at the same time has regenerator to compensate. It's dependent on the right weather condition and team support to work best, while genesect did not.

 

[Deluks917]

Torn-T does not need dugtrio to be very good. It can get through Rotom fairly quickly with just Specs Hurrican or LO hurricane into U-turn. If they have rachi and are very careful with it Torn-T is unlikely to get through without dugtrio but nothing in OU lacks a counter but you have 5 other guys.

Some people are underestimating how easy it is to get a hurricane off. Specs Hurricane OTK most of the meta assuming rocks. So you get Torn-T in on EQ/your poke dying/double switch and threaten to OTK with hurricane. Unless they have SPd Rachi you wear down their counter heavily.

Torn-T is also really hard to revenge kill. It is the fattest commonly used pokemon in OU. So you can only really revenge with a scarf pokemon/CB bullet punch or ICe shard (most teams don't have ice shard). Besides rain keldeo most scarf pokemon can be switched into for advantage by most teams.

 

[doublenikesocks]

That's a hardcore fallacy right there. Just because something is comparable to an uber doesn't make it ban worthy. Now you're just desperate to find a reason to ban it.
There's key differences that set those two apart. Genesect has versatility, can hit everything super effectively and can abuse almost all weather conditions to its favor. Tornadus-t needs politoad and cannot abuse u-turn the same way genesect can. Also genesect is MUCH more powerful 120 spA after a download boost is crazy strong.

But Tornadus has Hurricane, something that Gene never had. And its fast of the start, and much bulkier.

 

[Lavos]

Um...

0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 172-204 (51.49 - 61.07%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO

That's no Life Orb and a Jolly Nature, and Skarm is still 2HKO'd most of the time. Even ScarfChomp can 2HKO a physically defensive Skarmory. Just saiyan.

standard dp set isn't max/max, i use 252/80 but idk about other people's spreads. the chomp comparison has gone too far anyways. dp isn't bw2. the genesect comparison only works because they're both being viewed through a bw2 lens.

superbadd, specs hurricane is comparable in power to genesect's +1 bug buzz, so you're wrong again. and maybe you should reread your post...if it looks like an uber and it smells like an uber it's probably an uber. that is to say, if torn-t is comparable to genesect, and gene was banned, we should ban torn-t as well. not sure where the fallacy is in that.

 

[superbadd]

Gene wasn't hit SE by any priority move(unlike tornadus), also genesect had a much better defensive typing, so the bulk is basically non comparable in that respect. (you do realize tentacruel in the rain 2HKO's tornadus after rocks right?) Hurricane is also dependent on rain. It can't abuse its main stab w/o support as easily as genesect can.

EDIT:

superbadd, lo hurricane is comparable in power to genesect's +1 bug buzz, so you're wrong again.

Lol. wrong again? when was i the first time. i never said its hurricane wasn't as powerful, but generally, genesect is stronger due to having +1 in every (special) attack. I've listed reasons as to why they're different and why genesect was banned. THEY'RE NOT COMPARABLE. Genesect is incredibly versatile on top of being powerful. Tornadus-t only works well in rain(and has like 2 sets), and even then it's cock blocked by quite a few threats, so it needs support. Genesect does not. You can fit it on every team and be good to go. Just b/c they both have u-turn and can abuse a stab doesn't make them the same. That's literally the only comparison. That's were the fallacy is. Genesect was banned because it can sweep to easily with RP set, had incredible versatility were it can abuse another 4 sets to its liking. Tornadus-t has none of that. Tornadus is an effective Wall breaker/cleaner that's dependent on support to function at its best, while also being vulnerable to priority and scarf users, and having a handful of viable counters. I don't see how that's broken.

 

[Lavos]

Gene wasn't hit SE by any priority move(unlike tornadus), also genesect had a much better defensive typing, so the bulk is basically non comparable in that respect. (you do realize tentacruel in the rain 2HKO's tornadus after rocks right?) Hurricane is also dependent on rain. It can't abuse its main stab w/o support as easily as genesect can.

tentacruel's scald in rain 2hko's genesect after rocks as well. looks like even more similarities to me.

stop with the “hurricane is hard to abuse” nonsense, if you play this game you're aware that rain is easily the dominant weather in this metagame. hippo and tales probably don't feel like risking a hurricane to the face, and ttar gets ohko'd by superpower or specs fblast, never mind that they all still have u-turn to contend with. and while it's true that torn-t doesn't like priority, there still isn't a priority move that can ohko it, and it ohkos the priority user right back anyhow.

 

[Hugin]

Actually I was thinking maybe a suspect test on Trapping Abilities could be done. Not the most desirable, but considering is sending two pokes to ubers that could have some merit. Just a thought, not asking for it.

The problem isn't trapping abilities so much as trapping abilities on Dugtrio in our rain-heavy meta. With the weather war so important, Dugtrio being such a good counter for Ninetails/Tyranitar is game-changing. Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are BL, so trapping isn't the problem, it's just Dugtrio is essentially a perfect suicide counter to things that are a common counter to certain mons. It got teamed with Gene to deal with Heatran, Toed to win the weather war, and TT to deal with Jirachi(and because it's already there for Toed).

TL:DR, Dugtrio isn't the problem, being required to carry one specific counter to a threat and losing that counter to Dugtrio is the problem.

 

[superbadd]

I'm not saying that hurricane is hard to abuse. But it needs support, and if it needs support(I don't care if the support is politoad it still constitutes itself as a single pokemon just like dugtrio) then it isn't broken. If rain is what's pushing it, then that's what needs to be looked at. In all honesty, I don't think even rain pushes it, it's just people don't want to factor it in when teambuilding so they want to ban it(same thing happened with reuniculus in early BW, but guess what, people adapted.)

 

[BdB4445]

doublenikesocks just made a great point. torn-t is perfectly comparable to genesect in this situation. both have great speed and offensive stats, both have u-turn, both have an ability that greatly enhances their sweeping potential, and both have one solid counter that's trapped and killed by dugtrio. the similarities are almost scary.

only one problem: genesect is uber, but torn-t is still having a field day in ou.

maybe we need to do something about that.

Another problem is Genesect can do whatever he wants without the need for weather. Tornadus-T technically needs support

I'm not saying that rain is hard to keep up (since it's not), but banning Drizzle, Drought, Sandstream, and Snow Warning in OU would help bring balance to weather-based moves/abilities and the pokemon that use them. I am not 100% leaned towards that opinion because that might destroy weather teams' viability entirely in OU.

I honestly can't speak for Ubers though, since Drought and Drizzle were introduced there. But permanent, effortlessly summoned weather is what bans swift swim, sand veil, and threatens a ban on Tornadus-T and Keldeo in OU.

inb4infraction. I hate to rant after being warned, but the only reason I play OU is because of its popularity on Pokemon Showdown.

 

[Hugin]

I'm not saying that hurricane is hard to abuse. But it needs support, and if it needs support(I don't care if the support is politoad it still constitutes itself as a single pokemon just like dugtrio) then it isn't broken. If rain is what's pushing it, then that's what needs to be looked at. In all honesty, I don't think even rain pushes it, it's just people don't want to factor it in when teambuilding so they want to ban it(same thing happened with reuniculus in early BW, but guess what, people adapted.)

But we aren't allowed to look at Rain as a problem at all this test. Stupid force multipliers...

More realistically, though, a complex ban might be the best solution. Kingdra wasn't broken, but something had to change for it to be allowed in OU. Tornadus without a base power 120 STAB move with a 30% chance to hax is far less threatening. You still have U-Turn+Regen, but TT is so borderline in power already, dropping it to Air Slash is very noticeable.