My last post definitely wasn't about the battle, it was about the fact that Keldeo's sets are all checkable, or even counterable in many cases. CM isn't particularly threatening, and definitely isn't the reason Keldeo is a suspect, nor is it's Specs set broken, considering there are still switchins to it, it can be revenged, and it is essentially a water form of Band Terrakion. The scarf set seems to be the primary reason for Keldeo being a suspect in the first place, but it has a great number of checks that deserve spots on teams not only for checking Keldeo but for being good pokes in general (eg. Lati@s, Tentacruel, Celebi, Rotom-W, and even Toxicroak, who does well against rain in general, but completely stuffs Scarf Keldeo). When a poke has to run Choice Scarf to be it's most powerful, that also limits its potential in the same way it does with any other scarfer. If the other team has Jellicent, Toxicroak, Rotom-W, or Celebi, Keldeo can't afford to spam Hydro Pump, and while one can say that they will get worn down over time, so will Keldeo, since it can't use U-turn (unlike a certain bird). If the most powerful set has a large amount of checks that are very good pokes in their own right, that set isn't broken, simple as that.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
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Well Scarf Keldeo would still be useful to not be revenge-killed by non-scarfed Lati@s and Starmie; it's not solely for Tornadus-T, although it's a major reason to use it.
Although preserve's battle wasn't the best, it did debunk a few myths:
~ "Tornadus-T doesn't give fucks about status barring paralysis:" of course it does! If it gets burned, its Superpower is halved, and it will be taking 12.5% damage on top of 25% damage from Stealth Rock and 10% from LO recoil. People got to stop making out Tornadus-T as some Pokemon that can take abuse and heal all the damage with Regenerator, cuz it's so far from the truth. The only way Tornadus-T will be "sticking around longer than it's supposed to," is if it is used carefully to avoid taking unnecessary damage as well as some Spin support.
~ "Torandus-T's Hurricane is all-powerful:" Yes you can spam Hurricane without worrying about dangerous threats like Thundurus-T from setting up on you, but Hurricane from Tornadus-T is stopped cold by many common resists, most particularly Rotom-W and Jirachi, but even Zapdos, Tyranitar, and Heatran. Now Tornadus-T is forced out, putting the user in a back-foot. Hurricane may be a powerful move to spam, but it's not going to bulldoze through teams like anti-Torn-T users make it out to be. 110 SpA just simply doesn't allow that. If you want a Pokemon that can spam a move and not be stopped cold, try using Kyurem-B's Outrage.
Torn-T may be a deadly sweeper, but only with significant support; these support including.
1) Rain
2) Stealth Rock & Spikes
3) Rapid Spin
4) Pokemon that can remove hard counters to Torn-T
I don't see where the "broken" picture comes from ;/
ToF: That's assuming Torn-T does not have Rocks up its field. With Rocks, the next time Torn-T comes in it will be at 63%. So in the end the victor would be decided on who can keep the Rocks down the longest.
About TTar - it still can switch into a predicted Hurricane with ease or force Tornadus-T to use Superpower / Focus Blast (ie not spamming Hurricane). What's wrong with that?
Although preserve's battle wasn't the best, it did debunk a few myths:
~ "Tornadus-T doesn't give fucks about status barring paralysis:" of course it does! If it gets burned, its Superpower is halved, and it will be taking 12.5% damage on top of 25% damage from Stealth Rock and 10% from LO recoil. People got to stop making out Tornadus-T as some Pokemon that can take abuse and heal all the damage with Regenerator, cuz it's so far from the truth. The only way Tornadus-T will be "sticking around longer than it's supposed to," is if it is used carefully to avoid taking unnecessary damage as well as some Spin support.
~ "Torandus-T's Hurricane is all-powerful:" Yes you can spam Hurricane without worrying about dangerous threats like Thundurus-T from setting up on you, but Hurricane from Tornadus-T is stopped cold by many common resists, most particularly Rotom-W and Jirachi, but even Zapdos, Tyranitar, and Heatran. Now Tornadus-T is forced out, putting the user in a back-foot. Hurricane may be a powerful move to spam, but it's not going to bulldoze through teams like anti-Torn-T users make it out to be. 110 SpA just simply doesn't allow that. If you want a Pokemon that can spam a move and not be stopped cold, try using Kyurem-B's Outrage.
Torn-T may be a deadly sweeper, but only with significant support; these support including.
1) Rain
2) Stealth Rock & Spikes
3) Rapid Spin
4) Pokemon that can remove hard counters to Torn-T
I don't see where the "broken" picture comes from ;/
ToF: That's assuming Torn-T does not have Rocks up its field. With Rocks, the next time Torn-T comes in it will be at 63%. So in the end the victor would be decided on who can keep the Rocks down the longest.
About TTar - it still can switch into a predicted Hurricane with ease or force Tornadus-T to use Superpower / Focus Blast (ie not spamming Hurricane). What's wrong with that?
to your second point, incorrect. tornadus-t can just u-turn out, or in the case of tyranitar flat out kill it with focus blast / superpower. keeps offensive momentum on your side much like genesect did without the immediate boost. a 110 base sp.att hurricane is nothing to scoff at, it hits sp.def rotom-w for 25-30%, quick a big chunk. add in the u-turn out with sr and you've dealt over 50% in one go-around, while tornadus is sittin pretty at 100% because of regenerator
ok see that's the problem with all of your reasoning and this "by the paper" mentality, pocket - you suggest kyurem-b as this spam a move mon because thats what everyone is saying is broken but kyurem-b's counters are steels who actually have great recovery and punish the kyurem-b. skarm's roost, ferro's leech seed, the fact that kyurem-b is pretty slow and is punished for choosing outrage, the fact that kyurem-b doesn't regain significant health from regen, etc.
tornadus-t's counters include jirachi and rotom-w. well rotom-w takes a whopping 30-35% using a 248 hp/232 sdef calm set so it's likely taking 36% after 1 hurricane and has terrible recovery. jirachi is the best you get but it limits you to use sdef jirachi on every team to stop something so fast and powerful. hurricane doesn't punish users for picking it - it can reward them with confusion and is just ridiculously strong type-wise where only steels elcs and rocks resist (i don't see many good rock or elc types in ou). a lot of the best steels can be abused via their neutral typing to hurricane or their lower sdef.
so yes, tornadus-t can bulldoze teams through hurricane because its just so easy to click on it, do 30% + hazards to your best counters, switchout and regain health, just to repeat the process again with your resistance to fighting and grass, your immunity to ground, and through the death of something.
rapid spin is barely necessary btw, it's only key if you plan on using tornadus-t to push through LO Mamoswine since tornadus-t can take the ice shard, but otherwise, most tornadus-t teams use rapid spin because believe it or not, spin is a great move on great mons (tenta and starmie). but necessary? no, you have regenerator and an immunity to spikes.
i hate being the guy who says "paper arguments are useless" but there are so many contexts to the game - by assuming every counter will be at 100%, that every team should be using sdef jirachi, etc, you're putting ridiculous constraints on logical arguments because pokemon isn't this ideal game where everything is always going to be full health for every other thing and that hazards will only be up for one side but not for the other, etc etc. tornadus-t is an extremely fast mon with a ridiculously powerful stab attack and solid coverage moves in Taunt/superpower/U-Turn - it can rip holes through many OU mons like starmie gengar terrakion scizor ferrothorn etc just by coming out and it requires a ton of resources to actually take it out because it just recovers more health everytime it switches out.
id like to discuss keldeo more tbh, i thought jabba made good points and ive been using scarf keldeo to success now. i'm still leaning towards the not uber camp for NOW but i definitely see the "better in practice than paper" that keldeo actually brings.
tornadus-t's counters include jirachi and rotom-w. well rotom-w takes a whopping 30-35% using a 248 hp/232 sdef calm set so it's likely taking 36% after 1 hurricane and has terrible recovery. jirachi is the best you get but it limits you to use sdef jirachi on every team to stop something so fast and powerful. hurricane doesn't punish users for picking it - it can reward them with confusion and is just ridiculously strong type-wise where only steels elcs and rocks resist (i don't see many good rock or elc types in ou). a lot of the best steels can be abused via their neutral typing to hurricane or their lower sdef.
so yes, tornadus-t can bulldoze teams through hurricane because its just so easy to click on it, do 30% + hazards to your best counters, switchout and regain health, just to repeat the process again with your resistance to fighting and grass, your immunity to ground, and through the death of something.
rapid spin is barely necessary btw, it's only key if you plan on using tornadus-t to push through LO Mamoswine since tornadus-t can take the ice shard, but otherwise, most tornadus-t teams use rapid spin because believe it or not, spin is a great move on great mons (tenta and starmie). but necessary? no, you have regenerator and an immunity to spikes.
i hate being the guy who says "paper arguments are useless" but there are so many contexts to the game - by assuming every counter will be at 100%, that every team should be using sdef jirachi, etc, you're putting ridiculous constraints on logical arguments because pokemon isn't this ideal game where everything is always going to be full health for every other thing and that hazards will only be up for one side but not for the other, etc etc. tornadus-t is an extremely fast mon with a ridiculously powerful stab attack and solid coverage moves in Taunt/superpower/U-Turn - it can rip holes through many OU mons like starmie gengar terrakion scizor ferrothorn etc just by coming out and it requires a ton of resources to actually take it out because it just recovers more health everytime it switches out.
id like to discuss keldeo more tbh, i thought jabba made good points and ive been using scarf keldeo to success now. i'm still leaning towards the not uber camp for NOW but i definitely see the "better in practice than paper" that keldeo actually brings.
kd24, I was actually debunking paper arguments that have been made. My arguments are based off of actual battling experience, where I did not see Tornadus-T bulldozing through teams without significant support or Tornadus-T lasting "longer than it should have."
The fact that even offensive mons like Terrakion, Garchomp, or Kyurem-B can tank a hit from Tornadus-T and KO back speak volumes as to how much residual damage Tornadus-T needs before sweeping teams. You don't need Rotom-W or Jirachi, because there are a few more alterantives that hard counters Tornadus-T and even more that can survive a hit and force it out lest Tornadus-T want to risk dying.
Princess Bri: That's too much support for a Pokemon that is supposed to be broken ;s, especially when there are non-suspect Pokemon that requires much less support to rip through teams.
Wizarus: And Specs forces Torn-T to be locked into one move, making it more prediction-heavy (and people on this thread made it clear that LO is the more dangerous one)
The fact that even offensive mons like Terrakion, Garchomp, or Kyurem-B can tank a hit from Tornadus-T and KO back speak volumes as to how much residual damage Tornadus-T needs before sweeping teams. You don't need Rotom-W or Jirachi, because there are a few more alterantives that hard counters Tornadus-T and even more that can survive a hit and force it out lest Tornadus-T want to risk dying.
Princess Bri: That's too much support for a Pokemon that is supposed to be broken ;s, especially when there are non-suspect Pokemon that requires much less support to rip through teams.
Wizarus: And Specs forces Torn-T to be locked into one move, making it more prediction-heavy (and people on this thread made it clear that LO is the more dangerous one)
Well Bri you are not going to get that U-turn damage or that few SR switch-ins against many offensive teams as what will happen is kill-get killed-kill rinse and repeat. Torn-T might manage to get a kill against a weakened offensive Pokemon, but this means that the offensive Pokemon already killed something, so you are already one step behind. Garchomp, Terrakion, Mew, Latias, Reuniclus, Thundurus-T, and Kyu-B are some of the offensive Pokemon that can't be OHKOed from Torn-T after SR, and of 'course all can OHKO back. In many of my offensive teams i don't even have something to check Torn-T, just priority, Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO, and faster pokes, and it works.
That classifies as a lot of support to me. How much more do you want?
Knocking off 20% can be accomplished by U-turning off of something that switched in on SR. It's not hard at all to get.
I think that the people who say you don't have to beat Tornadus-T with counters are all running hyper offense (such as alexwolf, who said that you only need to run Pokemon that can OHKO Tornadus-T and aren't OHKOed back).
However, Tornadus-T doesn't excel against hyper offense, simply because hyper offense is made to check Tornadus-T with an ungodly amount of priority, Focus Sashes, and >121 base speed Pokemon, along with the fact that hyper offense is perfectly fine with saccing Pokemon. Saying hyper offense beats Tornadus-T isn't really a good reason against it, though, in my opinion, as Tornadus-T excels against every other team archetype barring hyper offense.
It strengths are against balanced teams, where it can wreck things with Hurricane or outspeed and U-turn out, which represents the majority of teams that I have seen; hyper-offense is a rarity and (in my opinion, as somebody who has run hyper offense) and a "wild-card" teamstyle, similar to the Dual Screen Gliscor Baton Pass teams of Gen 4.
I'm unsure about whether that makes Tornadus-T broken at the moment, though. Somebody should provide (high-level, obviously) logs where Tornadus-T provides an overwhelming advantage.
However, Tornadus-T doesn't excel against hyper offense, simply because hyper offense is made to check Tornadus-T with an ungodly amount of priority, Focus Sashes, and >121 base speed Pokemon, along with the fact that hyper offense is perfectly fine with saccing Pokemon. Saying hyper offense beats Tornadus-T isn't really a good reason against it, though, in my opinion, as Tornadus-T excels against every other team archetype barring hyper offense.
It strengths are against balanced teams, where it can wreck things with Hurricane or outspeed and U-turn out, which represents the majority of teams that I have seen; hyper-offense is a rarity and (in my opinion, as somebody who has run hyper offense) and a "wild-card" teamstyle, similar to the Dual Screen Gliscor Baton Pass teams of Gen 4.
I'm unsure about whether that makes Tornadus-T broken at the moment, though. Somebody should provide (high-level, obviously) logs where Tornadus-T provides an overwhelming advantage.
Here's the fundamental problem I have with Competitive battling. Banning of pokemon happen too frequently that we don't ever let the metagame stablize even a bit to see if people come up with ways to counter strategies. Being so quick to say something is broken and instantly banning it is just silly. As the game develops new and innovative strategies come out of countering different pokemon.
Sure, some pokemon are obviously broken (see most ubers). But others have just small broken parts. Sand Viel for Garchomp. Sand Rush for Excadrill, tail glow for Manaphy. Hell, I don't think Excadrill is broken using Mold Breaker (not sure, haven't tested).
One of the most famous street fighter players said this "The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)
Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
The point is. Rather than arguing on what should be ban or not. Just keep playing... if a strategy is indeed broken, all the top players will be using it, not because they're necessarily great but because it's uncountable or ridiculously hard to counter. That alone is merit for whether it should be banned or not. Having the highest ranked players vote to ban crap is just silly because it can lead to situations that you have potentially the top 20 best players all don't use the suspect pokemon because they have a better team to counter it and is overall more effective... but still vote for it being broken because of it's overpowerness for whatever reason... that's just bad for the game.
Edit: Example) if you run a OU tourney with say 64 people if like 5-6 of the top 8 teams are running Rain with Tornadus-T that might be sufficient evidence to ban. Not this voting nonsense. Voting is just subjective views the tourney data is hard facts.
Sure, some pokemon are obviously broken (see most ubers). But others have just small broken parts. Sand Viel for Garchomp. Sand Rush for Excadrill, tail glow for Manaphy. Hell, I don't think Excadrill is broken using Mold Breaker (not sure, haven't tested).
One of the most famous street fighter players said this "The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)
Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak." http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
The point is. Rather than arguing on what should be ban or not. Just keep playing... if a strategy is indeed broken, all the top players will be using it, not because they're necessarily great but because it's uncountable or ridiculously hard to counter. That alone is merit for whether it should be banned or not. Having the highest ranked players vote to ban crap is just silly because it can lead to situations that you have potentially the top 20 best players all don't use the suspect pokemon because they have a better team to counter it and is overall more effective... but still vote for it being broken because of it's overpowerness for whatever reason... that's just bad for the game.
Edit: Example) if you run a OU tourney with say 64 people if like 5-6 of the top 8 teams are running Rain with Tornadus-T that might be sufficient evidence to ban. Not this voting nonsense. Voting is just subjective views the tourney data is hard facts.
On the topic of Keldeo, I've given this a lot of thought while using it to first ever break into the top 100 (nobody cares I know, but still, big deal for me!)
It's a very dangerous weapon, maybe too powerful of a weapon to give rain teams at this point in the metagame, where rain is the dominant weather and there is a lot of touchy discussion about whether rain is/is not broken. But is Keldeo itself broken? I would say certainly not.
I've read in this thread that the Choice Scarf set is the set that is creating most of the hoopla about a possible keldeo ban, I agree, as its other two sets are frankly, pretty easy to manage and revenge kill. With this in mind, I'll throw out an open question- can any scarfed pokemon truly be broken? I know a scarfed Ho-Oh with Sacred Fire in Sun would be broken in OU, but all the offensively-oriented previous bans in the BW era have been pokemon that have options to halt most anything attempting to revenge kill- Blaziken's protect/speed boost, Excadrill's sand speed boost, Thundurus' prankster t-wave. These pokemon could also obliterate very nearly the entire metagame with their boosted coverage moves. Even in the era of the Genesect ban, it was the Rock Polish set that most considered made Genesect worthy of banning. Choice Scarfed pokemon, while extremely useful and necessary, are always going to be counterable and manageable through good teambuilding and playing simply by virtue of being choiced.
Keldeo's dual stabs are nukes. But when a scarfed Keldeo enters the field, you can expect it to either Secret Sword or Hydro Pump/Surf, and it has HP ice so it can revenge Dragons. There is a possibility of Icy Wind and HP Ghost, but from a scarfed Keldeo HP Ghost does negligible damage to standard Jellicent and a Sp. Def Celebi anyway. A Keldeo locked into Icy Wind is not threatening in the slightest. That's my biggest problem with theorymoning anyway- somehow in theorymoning Keldeo ends up having the power of specs and the speed of scarf- it can't have both. Jellicent and Celebi can counter scarf Keldeo, it is scarf Keldeo that could possibly be considered broken, so don't post the specs damage.
252. Sp. Atk Timid Choice Scarf Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs 252/252+ Celebi- 27.23-32.18% (4 Hits to KO)
252. Sp. Atk Timid Choice Scarf Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost 252/220+ Jellicent- 27.23-32.18% (4 Hits to KO)
A scarfed Keldeo either locks itself into a weak coverage move or a STAB move that several viable OU pokemon are immune to (Jellicent is immune to both, Gastrodon/Gengar are viable immunities to these other moves) or take negligible damage from (Celebi, Amoonguss to both, etc.) If your team is not prepared to take or offer some sort of counter measure to scarfed surfs in the rain from Keldeo, you're probably gonna lose. But the same goes for not carrying countermeasures to sun+venusaur or even a SD YacheChomp.
So yeah, I think Keldeo's a dangerous weapon, but there are several ways of managing it or limiting it to only doing what any other good scarfer would do- grabbing a revenge kill or two a game. I'd love to hear some discussion about this though...after all we are testing two pokemon here.
It's a very dangerous weapon, maybe too powerful of a weapon to give rain teams at this point in the metagame, where rain is the dominant weather and there is a lot of touchy discussion about whether rain is/is not broken. But is Keldeo itself broken? I would say certainly not.
I've read in this thread that the Choice Scarf set is the set that is creating most of the hoopla about a possible keldeo ban, I agree, as its other two sets are frankly, pretty easy to manage and revenge kill. With this in mind, I'll throw out an open question- can any scarfed pokemon truly be broken? I know a scarfed Ho-Oh with Sacred Fire in Sun would be broken in OU, but all the offensively-oriented previous bans in the BW era have been pokemon that have options to halt most anything attempting to revenge kill- Blaziken's protect/speed boost, Excadrill's sand speed boost, Thundurus' prankster t-wave. These pokemon could also obliterate very nearly the entire metagame with their boosted coverage moves. Even in the era of the Genesect ban, it was the Rock Polish set that most considered made Genesect worthy of banning. Choice Scarfed pokemon, while extremely useful and necessary, are always going to be counterable and manageable through good teambuilding and playing simply by virtue of being choiced.
Keldeo's dual stabs are nukes. But when a scarfed Keldeo enters the field, you can expect it to either Secret Sword or Hydro Pump/Surf, and it has HP ice so it can revenge Dragons. There is a possibility of Icy Wind and HP Ghost, but from a scarfed Keldeo HP Ghost does negligible damage to standard Jellicent and a Sp. Def Celebi anyway. A Keldeo locked into Icy Wind is not threatening in the slightest. That's my biggest problem with theorymoning anyway- somehow in theorymoning Keldeo ends up having the power of specs and the speed of scarf- it can't have both. Jellicent and Celebi can counter scarf Keldeo, it is scarf Keldeo that could possibly be considered broken, so don't post the specs damage.
252. Sp. Atk Timid Choice Scarf Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs 252/252+ Celebi- 27.23-32.18% (4 Hits to KO)
252. Sp. Atk Timid Choice Scarf Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost 252/220+ Jellicent- 27.23-32.18% (4 Hits to KO)
A scarfed Keldeo either locks itself into a weak coverage move or a STAB move that several viable OU pokemon are immune to (Jellicent is immune to both, Gastrodon/Gengar are viable immunities to these other moves) or take negligible damage from (Celebi, Amoonguss to both, etc.) If your team is not prepared to take or offer some sort of counter measure to scarfed surfs in the rain from Keldeo, you're probably gonna lose. But the same goes for not carrying countermeasures to sun+venusaur or even a SD YacheChomp.
So yeah, I think Keldeo's a dangerous weapon, but there are several ways of managing it or limiting it to only doing what any other good scarfer would do- grabbing a revenge kill or two a game. I'd love to hear some discussion about this though...after all we are testing two pokemon here.
I've finally managed to gather up my thoughts and arrange them into words coherent enough to fully explain my opinion on Tornadus-T, so I thought I'd give more input on why I believe it's broken.
Tornadus itself, as an individual variable, does not overcentralize the metagame. It's still fast and powerful, but if robbed of it's mightiest STAB, it's power is far more manageable. So yes, Tornadus-T needs rain support to operate at it's fullest potential. I'm officially conceding to this point.
But my reasoning for it's brokenness is that, while Tornadus-T requires rain support, Tornadus-T is very good at supporting rain itself, simply because it's so good at dealing with opposing weathers; it can threaten the opposing team with it's mighty Hurricanes, causing a Catch-22 for the opponent: do they attempt to change the weather, and risk getting U-turn'd on and losing momentum, or do they risk something eating a Hurricane?
Ninetales can bring Hurricane's accuracy down to 50%, but that means Ninetales still has a 50/50 chance of taking a big hit. And that's assuming they even go for Hurricane in the first place -- if your opponent is smart, or just careful, they'll U-turn instead to scout your next action, which could easily lead to your Ninetales getting beaten by another threat, like Dugtrio (yes Dugtrio there I said it). Even worse for sun teams is that most of them can't afford to use Jirachi (exacerbated fire weakness sucks) or Rotom-W (weakened Hydro Pump sucks), so in exchange for having the ability to ruin Tornadus-T's Hurricanes, they lose the ability to switch anything into it should the weather conditions not be favorable.
Tyranitar does even worse; U-turn will deal a pretty good chunk to him if it's foolhardy enough to switch in (31-37% to banded version), and if Torn-T went for Hurricane instead, that means he can OHKO Tyranitar with Superpower on the next turn. Hippowdon fares better against Torn-T one-on-one thanks to his massive bulk, but seeing a Hippowdon on the opponent's team is generally a sign for his user to be less liberal with Hurricane and U-turn more often, which brings up the same Catch-22 I brought up for Ninetales. (All this assumes LO version, btw; obviously, the Specs version simply must predict more versus Tyranitar.)
The OU metagame has always been rain-centric, but Tornadus-T pushes it over the line. Not only does he abuse his weather better than any other Pokemon can abuse their own, but he's also a massive asset to rain teams thanks to his ability to help Politoed keep rain up. Tornadus-T doesn't so much require rain support as much as Tornadus-T is rain support. If your team is weatherless, then you risk getting worn down and eventually get torn apart by Tornadus-T's Hurricanes, and if you're running a weather team aside from rain, you better prepare to fight in the rain for most of the battle.
Tornadus itself, as an individual variable, does not overcentralize the metagame. It's still fast and powerful, but if robbed of it's mightiest STAB, it's power is far more manageable. So yes, Tornadus-T needs rain support to operate at it's fullest potential. I'm officially conceding to this point.
But my reasoning for it's brokenness is that, while Tornadus-T requires rain support, Tornadus-T is very good at supporting rain itself, simply because it's so good at dealing with opposing weathers; it can threaten the opposing team with it's mighty Hurricanes, causing a Catch-22 for the opponent: do they attempt to change the weather, and risk getting U-turn'd on and losing momentum, or do they risk something eating a Hurricane?
Ninetales can bring Hurricane's accuracy down to 50%, but that means Ninetales still has a 50/50 chance of taking a big hit. And that's assuming they even go for Hurricane in the first place -- if your opponent is smart, or just careful, they'll U-turn instead to scout your next action, which could easily lead to your Ninetales getting beaten by another threat, like Dugtrio (yes Dugtrio there I said it). Even worse for sun teams is that most of them can't afford to use Jirachi (exacerbated fire weakness sucks) or Rotom-W (weakened Hydro Pump sucks), so in exchange for having the ability to ruin Tornadus-T's Hurricanes, they lose the ability to switch anything into it should the weather conditions not be favorable.
Tyranitar does even worse; U-turn will deal a pretty good chunk to him if it's foolhardy enough to switch in (31-37% to banded version), and if Torn-T went for Hurricane instead, that means he can OHKO Tyranitar with Superpower on the next turn. Hippowdon fares better against Torn-T one-on-one thanks to his massive bulk, but seeing a Hippowdon on the opponent's team is generally a sign for his user to be less liberal with Hurricane and U-turn more often, which brings up the same Catch-22 I brought up for Ninetales. (All this assumes LO version, btw; obviously, the Specs version simply must predict more versus Tyranitar.)
The OU metagame has always been rain-centric, but Tornadus-T pushes it over the line. Not only does he abuse his weather better than any other Pokemon can abuse their own, but he's also a massive asset to rain teams thanks to his ability to help Politoed keep rain up. Tornadus-T doesn't so much require rain support as much as Tornadus-T is rain support. If your team is weatherless, then you risk getting worn down and eventually get torn apart by Tornadus-T's Hurricanes, and if you're running a weather team aside from rain, you better prepare to fight in the rain for most of the battle.
I think some people are looking at Keldeo and Tornadus the wrong way. The whole point is that in many situations you just spam Hurricane/Hydro Pump. U-turn on the LO set can often only be used after frist spamming hurricane. The situations where the coverage moves don't matter are the scary ones.
Hi all, I'm only a casual battler who doesn't ladder, but if I may ask I'm surprised that no one ever mention Scarf-ditto as Tornadus-T revenge-killer/check.
Tornadus-T will only come in when rain is up to spam hurricane, so if you steal your opponent's tornadus T now they will be screwed because you have scarf tornadus t spamming hurricane all over his/her team. Moreover, his/her team wouldn't be able to counter it with another weather because its already raining. Assuming a cookie cutter rain offense team of Politoed/Tornadus-T/Ferrothorn/Dugtrio/Scarf-Keldeo they all will get wrecked by scarf ditto spamming hurricane as scarf tornadus-t,
At least I successfully pulled this trick on several occasion when I'm battling (I only played 3-4 battles consecutively so I'm still presumably at the bottom of the ladder)
Tornadus-T will only come in when rain is up to spam hurricane, so if you steal your opponent's tornadus T now they will be screwed because you have scarf tornadus t spamming hurricane all over his/her team. Moreover, his/her team wouldn't be able to counter it with another weather because its already raining. Assuming a cookie cutter rain offense team of Politoed/Tornadus-T/Ferrothorn/Dugtrio/Scarf-Keldeo they all will get wrecked by scarf ditto spamming hurricane as scarf tornadus-t,
At least I successfully pulled this trick on several occasion when I'm battling (I only played 3-4 battles consecutively so I'm still presumably at the bottom of the ladder)
If clicking U-turn and having Stealth Rocks on the field is a lot of support, every single team in the game qualifies as having "a lot of support".
The problem with that argument is the fact that, while you can force Tornadus-T out with a full-health bulky mon, you won't be anywhere near full health endgame. The problem I see with Tornadus-T that doesn't apply to something like Terrakion, which is similarly hard to switch in on, even more so, is that very few things that aren't scarfers outspeed Tornadus (Weavile and Jolteon are the only two I can think of), and requiring either a full health poke or a scarfer to force out Tornadus-T is not reliable, since pokes get worn down, and scarfers are scarfers (ie. can be set up on if they pick the wrong move, etc). Strong priority is of course good against Tornadus-T, but those moves aren't always safe to go for if the opponent has a set-up sweeper or powerful attacker that laughs in the face of a Banded Bullet Punch or LO Ice Shard (of which there are a good amount). Tornadus isn't Swift Swimmer or Excadrill broken, but the pressure it puts on an opponent for the amount of risk it takes to click either Hurricane or U-turn is unhealthy for the game, in my opinion. It's just a little too sustainable, a little too fast, and a little too strong to stay in this meta, at least while Drizzle's around.
I'm not really sure whether using Scarf Ditto means that something isn't broken because you're effectively using the same Pokemon except slightly weaker.
Also I wouldn't say that SpD Zapdos is that great of a check because it is VERY possible for it to be 2HKO'd by Hidden Power Ice after rocks. In my opinion, it's only Jirachi that doesn't take too much from any of Torn-T's moves, but we know that Jirachi can be easily worn down.
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 248 HP/228 SpDef Zapdos (+SpDef) : 36.55% - 43.34%
Entry hazards damage: 95
After entry hazards: 235 - 261 (61.36% - 68.15%)
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
Now I'm not sure whether you're satisfied with that answer, but that pretty much means that there is a high chance that the voters aren't scrubs.
Also I wouldn't say that SpD Zapdos is that great of a check because it is VERY possible for it to be 2HKO'd by Hidden Power Ice after rocks. In my opinion, it's only Jirachi that doesn't take too much from any of Torn-T's moves, but we know that Jirachi can be easily worn down.
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 248 HP/228 SpDef Zapdos (+SpDef) : 36.55% - 43.34%
Entry hazards damage: 95
After entry hazards: 235 - 261 (61.36% - 68.15%)
2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
'Voters must obtain a Glicko2 rating of 2000 or higher and a Glicko2 deviation of 55 or lower on the "OU (current)" ladder.'
Now I'm not sure whether you're satisfied with that answer, but that pretty much means that there is a high chance that the voters aren't scrubs.
@Silenced Melody It's not relevant that they're not scrubs or not. If they 100 best players don't use Tornadus-T because they all have 6 pokemon team better than any 6 pokemon team with Tornadus-T they can still vote that Tornadus-T is broken even though it isn't. This is extreme, but if like 30-40% don't use Tornadus-T... and out of the top 10 only 4-6 use it we can still have a ruling that it is broken.
In SC2 good evidence that something is broken is after a tournament where the results are such that say 6-7 out of 10 players play one particular race over the rest.
Our metric is. Find good-great players and let them vote on their feelins on a particular pokemon. Obviously it's super subjective based on the team that you're running. Plus people's feelings don't accurately depict the data.
What determines whether something is broken or not is results. How much Tornadus-T affects wins. The cold hard data. Not arguments of what Tornadus-T can do. Don't get me wrong, I use it because Hurricane is completely OP, but I have yet seen cold hard data that all the people topping ladder use Tornadus-T because Tornadus-T is so powerful that it overcomes skill level of 2 equal players such that a team running Tornadus-T wins a huge % of time over a team without given equal skill level.
In SC2 good evidence that something is broken is after a tournament where the results are such that say 6-7 out of 10 players play one particular race over the rest.
Our metric is. Find good-great players and let them vote on their feelins on a particular pokemon. Obviously it's super subjective based on the team that you're running. Plus people's feelings don't accurately depict the data.
What determines whether something is broken or not is results. How much Tornadus-T affects wins. The cold hard data. Not arguments of what Tornadus-T can do. Don't get me wrong, I use it because Hurricane is completely OP, but I have yet seen cold hard data that all the people topping ladder use Tornadus-T because Tornadus-T is so powerful that it overcomes skill level of 2 equal players such that a team running Tornadus-T wins a huge % of time over a team without given equal skill level.
You need a fully healthy pokemon/scarfer/priority attacker to force out Tornadus-T is only applicable for offensive teams.And that's how offensive teams check other fast hard hitters is it not?I don't know how many offensive teams pack the likes of Chansey,Gliscor,Skarmory to check Latios,Terrakion and DDNite,my guess is none.They use CBScizor,Scarfers and stuff like SashAlakazam for that.As for the fact that there is risk involved in using priority or a scarfer, offensive teams needs to have a way of dealing with that potential risk.Thats how good offensive teams work is it not?In fact if Offensive teams can control the momentum which IS the objective of Offensive teams,you'll find yourself unable to spam Hurricane because you'll be too busy dealing with opposing sweepers.Like Alexwolf,I don't use any Tornadus-T checks or counters on my offensive teams and just rely on scarfers and priority and it does work.
As for the fact that Tornadus-T can inflict damage on it's counters like Jirachi,Rotom-W and then U-turn out to safety,it's assuming that Jirachi,Rotom-W just sits there and does nothing.While Tornadus-T can just spam Hurricane and U-turn out,Jirachi can just use Wish on the U-turn and use protect to heal up or simply Paralyze the switch in.Rotom-W can get back health via pain split or rest or Volt Switch out regaining momentum on the turn Tornadus-T U-turns.
Please don't exaggerate arguments that were not made. There is absolutely no link between the first condition and the conclusion drawn in the above quote. Having to U-turn out a couple of times definitely qualifies as significant support because it implies that you'll have had to have needed something to switch into the powerful attackers just listed, which is not easy in the first place. "Little to no support" when we label for a broken Pokemon is generally in the ball-park of "bring out the Pokemon, and either i) OKHO (the Pokemon that is currently in) or outspeed and 2HKO (the majority of switch-ins) Pokemon with a relatively easily spammable attack, or ii) sweep a major portion of the opposing unless your opponent puts in a huge effort to stop it. Something that fits this description is something like Blaziken, where you 1) it had very little safe switch-ins, and 2) it could just do something like click Protect or Swords Dance and immediately begin some form of sweep. Tornadus-T does not do this without significant support.
The problem with this is that pretty much any B tier or above sweeper in OU can do this. Cleaning up late-game is almost a non-factor, since ANYTHING could happen between the start of the game and the endgame. Something like ScarfMence or Scarf Kyurem-B can sweep endgame, because you probably ended up weakening Skarmory or something like that to the point where you can easily break through it in the late-game, just like how you probably weakened Jirachi/Chansey/Rotom-W/Zapdos/whatever so Tornadus-T could break through it lategame.
Anyway, since people are moving to Keldeo, I'll jump straight to Jabba's post. Yes, I agree that Scarf Keldeo is much better in practice than on paper. I tried it for a bit and while I thought it was overrated, it was still an excellent set. I also agree that it DOES play like a Swift Swimmer in a lot of cases. However, what makes the difference, is that while Scarf Keldeo has the Speed to match many Swift Swimmers, it does not carry nearly the same kind of power that the Swift Swimmers were free to use, or the ability to switch attacks. Scarf Timid Keldeo has 357 Special Attack and 519 Speed. You could use Modest for more power, but you outspeed WAY less threats, including Salamence and Landorus. Kingdra, the most commonly used Swift Swimmer that spammed Hydro Pump like Scarf Keldeo, carries either Specs, which boosted its SpA to 475 and had a 538 Speed stat. Life Orb had the equivalent of 412 SpA, but it had the ability to switch attacks, which made it way more dangerous. Specs Kingdra's Hydro Pump was 33% more powerful than Scarf Keldeo's. If incorrect Sand Force Landorus-I was considered broken in round 1 and corrected Sand Force Landorus-I was not, it proves that 33% is way too much to draw a comparison (Incorrect Lando-I's attacks were 13% more powerful than corrected). In terms of Hydro Pumps, Ludicolo had the weakest, and with a Life Orb, it was still more powerful than Scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump, with the freedom to change attacks. You could say Keldeo could run Specs to boost its power, but where's the Speed coming from? Swift Swimmers were broken because they had BOTH the power and speed, often with the freedom to change attacks, while Keldeo can only have one of them.
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