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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

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You know what, since everyone got bored about discussing the obvious borderline pokemon here (The Hurricane dude with the wicked beard), let's make focus on Keledo, and specifically the set that merited his suspect status, the Scarfeo (I'm totally trademarking this):

Scarfeo

Choice Scarf
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

~ Surf / HP Electric / HP Ghost/ HP Bug/Icy Wind/ HP Ice
~ Hydro Pump
~ Hidden Power Ice /Icy Wind/ HP Electric / HP Ghost/ HP Bug
~ Secret Sword


Battle Conditions: PermaRain, SR



This is the standard set and the additions are some of the most popular alternatives. For the sake of making this more clear and more realistic, we are gonna assume SR is on the field as well but nothing more.

I don't want people to jump on me immediately, but rather add or delete some mons on the following lists with an explanation (calcs would help):

Checks:

Chansey (Evo bitches)
Politoed (Bulky Variants more prefereable)
Starmie (can't switch in on Hydro Pump unless fat and with leftovers/twinkies)
Gastrodon (toxic, earth power, meh)
Vapereon (hello there hydration, hello thar single stab that pony resists, GL with that toxic scheme ROFL)
Tornadus-T (Can't switch in but definitely can make pony switch out/die)
Slowbro (can switch in conditionally and if you want to make a carbomb out of it, can make pony priority fodder after a Psychic or neutered after a T-wave)



Counters:

Latios (Battle of the scarves, 110 > 108 last time I checked)
Latias (CM says hi)
Amoongus (Who wants to fall asleep first?)
Celebi (Reliant on not having HP Bug on set)
Toxicroak (Lol HP Psychic)
Slowking (yes, I just went there, Bro is also good but HP moves ruins it)
Jellicent (doesn't give a shit about pony's set, wear and tear baby)
Tentacruel (u Jelli?)
 
If you think Scarf Tornadus-T, a Pokemon who is never even used, is a Keldeo counter: please stop posting.

Rotom-W isn't a counter either, lol.
 
Offensive Toxicroak is 2HKO'd by Specs Keldeo. Bulky Toxicroak is 3HKO'd factoring in Dry Skin, but it can't even 2HKO Keldeo with Drain Punch, so it loses 1 on 1.
 
The thing is, Keldeo inst broken cause it cant muscle through everything with its stabs. Jellicent, amoongus, dragonite, celebi, sp defensive jirachi, latiwins and a couple others. Yeah, specs rain Hydro Pump can probably beat its counters, but then youre rellying on a 80 accuracy move to do that. And by using a specs set you open yourself to counters that other sets dont have such as tentacruel. All in all Keldeo has is a balanced pokemon that is definitely not overcentralizing the metagame and can be handled by common stuff.
 
Believe it or not, slowbro itself is a pretty solid check to scarf keldeo and even CM versions

Rain-Hydro-pump: (44.67 - 52.53%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Hidden power ghost: (46.7 - 55.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(I think you can do the math of what +1 would look like)

And in return:
Psychic: (65.63 - 78.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 Psychic: (44.58 - 52.63%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, slowbro can take any thing Keldeo dishes out and take a massive chunk of damage off her health, sort of a "defensive check" if you will.

I have yet to see a HP-bug keldeo take out my Celebi, I am just as scared of HP-bug as I am signal beam Rotom-W. And I am not sure why you are listing Rotom-W as a counter, keldeo's hydropump in the rain 2HKOes every Rotom-W bar specially defensive.

I would say Jellicent and Tentacruel are solid counters to the scarf set atleast, they can burn it and then proceed to slowly wear down its health with scarf. Hp-ghost only does 36.22 - 43.17% to Jellicent and Tentacruel takes 34.61 - 40.65% from rain-hydropump, factor in rain dish + protect spam and recover, and its not getting through before it dies.
 
Tornadus-T is too safe and powerful in rain to be called not broken, but I refuse to accept the idea that Keldeo is even near the brokenness that were the Swift Swimmers. Scarf means that the only boost in power Keldeo is getting is on Hydro Pump/Surf, and that's only the rain boost, while at the same time locking him into a move and offering nothing in terms of recovery like lefties would provide. Scarf Keldeo is the best set by far, since Specs is essentially a Terrakion but with more reliable switchins, and CM is just not that good. Keldeo is a powerful pokemon on rain teams, but nothing more.
 
Rotom-W is 2hko'd by Secret Sword after rocks.
Tornadus-T can't switch in on surf/hydro pump and fails to outspeed unless it's running scarf (which only has a usage of 7%). They're shaky checks at best.
 
I like slowking better. Max spd slowking also has the distinction of checking Tornadus-t AND keldeo as specs hurricane can only 3HKO while slowking can switch in and out with impunity thanks to regenerator. Also, slowking has reliable recovery and T-wave to fuck up tornadus even more. It can also use flamethrower to stop ferrothron. It's very antimeta atm.
 
Keep in mind I was only taking into account the scarf set and nothing more. Im removing Rotom-w completely and prolly moving Tornadus to a conditional counter or check list (cant switch in).

Edit: upgrading tenta and jelli, adding bro to check list
 
I like that phrasing a lot, that Tornadus-T is "too safe" in rain. There is no reason not to run this thing on a rain team. There's just no risk involved to this guy in the rain. You have base 121 speed, solid bulk, a 100%-accurate 120-power pure-stab attack that has a 30% confusion chance and is one of the best attacking types in the metagame, and you have regenerator, so you can also run life orb without compromising your survivability. Oh, and it makes your SR weakness not a huge deal too. There is just absolutely nothing to lose with this guy. It is high reward with very little risk.

If you're not running this guy on a rain team right now while you can, you're missing out, as he's almost guaranteed to deal massive damage to and/or take straight out multiple pokemon on your opponents team once its one true counter, jirachi, is gone. There are only a select couple things in the game that can come in and take two hurricanes more than once a game, and several of those pokemon (bronzong, metagross) don't have reliable recovery and risk being outlasted. That's bad enough without all the additional perks (speed, ability, typing, moves, versatility) this thing has.
 
shrang said:
My problem is that Excadrill / Swift Swimmers were so ridiculously broken inside / outside of sand / rain that it was prudent to ban them. On the other hand, Tornadus-T isn't THAT overpowered even in the rain, while outside of it, it is just totally unremarkable.
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How come they were broken without their weather condition?

SLike I said in my previous post, rain is not that common that it can be classified as standard battle conditions, which means it is still significant support.
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There's something people like Jabba have mentioned already: not only weather is the most common weather in OU but, once there's rain on the field, Tornadus-T can easily help keeping it, as Tales and TTar will struggle to even switch in without dying. If there's no rain, however, it's just like Excadrill and Swimmers: relatively good, but without its best asset that lets it kill/maim shit everywhere. Besides, rain is a common battle condition for Tornadus as no one uses it without Toed (just like Excadrill+TTar/Hippo or Volcarona+spinner), so...
 
I use Tornadus-T on my team to check non-Scarf Keldeo (as do other people). Ban Tornadus-T, how will that affect Keldeo?
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Ummm who cares?

If we ban Tornadus-T, and then Keldeo becomes a problem, then we ban Keldeo. We certanly don't keep something "potentially" broken in the metagame, just because it checks something else.
 
Dark Fallen Angel said:
Keldeo has questionable coverage. But there are many people that seem to forget that Keldeo's sheer power (especially under rain) more than makes up for that. It doesn't matter that Keldeo is not hitting things for super-effective, or even neutral damage, because rain-boosted Hydro Pump (or even Surf) coming from this beast are usually sufficient to 2HKO/OHKO a lot of things, even those that resist it. Under rain, it has less power, of course, but the fact that it sits at a higher speed tier than most common scarfers except Terrakion (which it speed tie with) and Lati@s, and the fact that Keldeo resists Stealth Rock and Pursuit, as well as resisting Ice Shard, Bullet Punch and being neutral to Mach Punch (all of which are COMMON priority moves), means that Keldeo is either too fast or too strong to deal with. Name one offensive counter/check for this thing that is not Lati@s. You are pretty much forced to pack something like Celebi, Amoongus or Jellicent to deal with it.
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You have already mentioned four Pokemon that offensive teams can use to deal with Scarf Keldeo, yet this isn't enough for you? Ok check out some more then: RD Kingdra (and any Kingdra really), TR Slowking (yes guys this thing is viable, and i am going to disregard anyone screaming ''hurr durr this is not an OU poke'', because i am just listing viable checks for Scarf Keldeo), Tentacruel, Venusaur, SpD Rotom-W, and Toxicroak. And even if Scarf Keldeo is problematic for offensive teams, so what? This is one playstyle that Scarf Keldeo is good against. If it wasn't good against something it wouldn't be a top tier Pokemon anyway... I don't see anyone giving a damn about how Kyurem-B fucks stall, which doesn't need more fucking anyway, yet everyone seems troubled because offensive players need to actually put a bit of effort when teambuilding? I just don't get it guys...
 
in all honestly, i think both keldeo / tornadus-t are not broken. they just have too many counters around in order to be broken. i find dragonite to be more broken than both, tbh.

however, i still think banning them would be healthy for the meta. rain is just too dominant nowadays (i think there's a 70% chance of finding a rain team if you look for a battle in the ladder), and it makes the metagame too stale IMO
 
Yeah, even though Keldeo gets a great power boost in Rain, it's still countered by its counters. Celebi, Latias, Tentacruel, and Amoonguss are all great answers to Keldeo, regardless of weather it's in whether or not. (;D)

You could say that those are really the only answers to Scarf Keldeo but I really don't think that's an issue (for Tornadus, it is) Keldeo's checks are very viable and useful in today's meta game, and can function a lot of other purposes that also make them useful in other areas as well. Lati@s have a whole lot more uses than just being checks to Keldeo-R; they can sweep a bunch of other things too. Celebi can act as a fighting sponge and wall many other Pokemon as well as support it's team with decent powered attacks. Tentacruel can spin, set hazards, and Toxic stall. Heck, because of the amount of Dragons / Fighters in OU right now, all of those Pokemon can fit in many teams without causing too much disturbance at all. It'll be hard to find a standard team that can't fit in a Lati@s- and that is, of they don't already have one. Most offensive teams work well with Celebi / Jellicent, because of their ability to support as well as status / hit decently hard.

The case is a bit different with Tornadus-T. Its counters may not be few but not many of them can be smacked on any standard team without dragging the team behind or not having good synergy. Chansey and SpDef Skarm are ehh walls in general now, again because of the fact that many Pokemon can push past them, AND because their firepower is less than that of Deo-D. Not everyone can afford to use Sun to counter Tornadus; I mean for many Sand / Hail / Rain teams it's out of the option. Jirachi is one of the few that can sport multiple other uses elsewhere, but Tornadus's U-Turn makes Jirachi it hard for Rachi to switch in every time.
 
Keldeo has notable flaws in each of its sets that make it not broken in my opinion.

Specs- Easily revenged, is choice-locked, still has reliable switchins (Jellicent/Celebi etc)
CM- Not particularly good, easy to revenge (My comments on this set are less detailed because I just think it's bad)
Scarf- Definitely the best set, but a number of anti-rain pokes can switchin without much worry, like Lati@s, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Amoonguss, Celebi, Kingdra, bulky Rotom-W (unboosted Secret Sword does not hit that hard), and even Tentacruel, like the alexwolf said. Also, is choice-locked, so it has all the weaknesses of any choice-locked mon.

The fact that you can easily discern which set Keldeo is running, and then exploit the weaknesses of that set to greatly reduce the threat a Keldeo might otherwise pose makes it far less powerful than the swift swimmers ever were, and not broken.

Tornadus-T is broken because there is so little danger or risk taken when you put it on a team and then just click Hurricane (or U-turn depending on the enemy's composition), and the power Hurricane possesses is disproportionate to the risk one takes when chosen. This fact, combined with the fact that it has Regenerator, makes Tornadus-T far too safe, and does away with a weakness that would otherwise render it far more balanced, it's vulnerability to Stealth Rock.

In response to Bluestar, unless Toed has suddenly become 70% in usage, that statistic is clearly wrong.
 
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent6781537

Played a battle earlier against a rain team with both keldeo and tornadus t on it. It wasn't that hard.

I also I hear people saying that certain pokemon can't switch into other pokemon but there are ways to bring in your pokemon safetly if you play correctly. Whether it's from sacing a pokemon or switch incentive, through u-turns or volt-switch.

And why are we encouraging more bans? It seems like we wan't to keep a certain play style by banning pokemon that offer different play styles, but at the same time I hear people complaining that OU is boring because people use the same pokemon. We shouldn't ban pokemon unless they can sweep mostly any team at almost any time and it's obvious that these two pokemon can't do that.

Having the same play styles makes the meta-game boring and stagnant, while finding ways to beat new potential pokemon, makes the game fun and exciting, whether it's with different move sets or different pokemon that people usually don't use. This is exactly what happens when a new generation comes out, so why does it matter when unreleased, or different forms of pokemon come out?

Also, I know that part of what I'm going to say is off limit's, but I really feel the need to address this. It's obvious that the only reason these two pokemon are under consideration is because it's abused by rain. Part of us my feel that rain may not be broken so we don't wan't to ban that and part of feel that the pokemon by itself, not abused by rain, is not broken either so it's only when the their is a combination that we feel it may be broken. So why not try banning the combination of rain and these certain pokemon if it truly is broken(which I don't think it is in this case) when in combination? This not only applies to rain, but other weather or abilities.
 
We are not considering banning Tornadus because we want to restrict our play styles, but instead for the exact opposite reason. Tornadus itself is an offensive barrier that keeps some Pokemon from coming out and shining themselves. While it is debatable how much and to whom Tornadus does it, I'm sure most of us are in agreement that Tornadus HAS made a mark on the meta of OU.
 
@preserve: didnt even bother to watch the battle after i opened it because you have jellicent, rotom, skarmory and mamoswine..of course it wasnt that hard lol.

As for my take on these two suspects I think keldeo is checked and countered enough to be left in ou, as for TT that shit is beyond broken and shouldve been banned ages ago. The main reason I think that tornadus is broken is the fact that the thing cant be worn down thus it can easily outlive its solid counters, which there is few of. At least genesect was punished for its constant u-turning because it was constantly taking rocks/spikes damage so you actually didnt even need a solid counter for it, tt can be at 75% from early game to end game, making him impossible to contain.
 
preserve said:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent6781537

Played a battle earlier against a rain team with both keldeo and tornadus t on it. It wasn't that hard.
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The person you were playing didn't seem to that good of a player, I noticed several large flaws in their play style such as attempting to iron head flinch Skarmory, allowing their Jirachi to get burn (actually switching into the burn), and then then sacking their healthy scizor for no apparent reason. This is not a good example of a standard rain team in competent hands.

And why are we encouraging more bans? It seems like we wan't to keep a certain play style by banning pokemon that offer different play styles, but at the same time I hear people complaining that OU is boring because people use the same pokemon. We shouldn't ban pokemon unless they can sweep mostly any team at almost any time and it's obvious that these two pokemon can't do that.

Having the same play styles makes the meta-game boring and stagnant, while finding ways to beat new potential pokemon, makes the game fun and exciting, whether it's with different move sets or different pokemon that people usually don't use. This is exactly what happens when a new generation comes out, so why does it matter when unreleased, or different forms of pokemon come out?
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You seem to have the wrong impression of what can and can not be banned. First smogon has banned plenty of pokemon that do not sweep teams outright, Deoxys-S, and Genesect already this generation, not including Ubers like Lugia and Giratina which don't sweep teams. Doexys-D and Genesect did not sweep teams at all, usually, but instead provided critical support for a team. Doexsys-D either set up screens or hazards to support a team in a sweep, and I think we all know what Genesect did. Both of these pokemon had a negative impact on the metagame and opposing play styles while rarely being a purely offensive force them selfs. If anything Tornadus would be banned for its ability to wall break, which is its way it supports a team, not because its an outright sweeper.

The metagame also does not exist for 'fun,' whether or not the metagame is boring or not should never affect a ban. A pokemon is only banned if it has a negative impact on the metagame itself, is everyone forced to run a specific pokemon, is only one playstyle viable, ect, fun and excitement are not part of the tiering equation.
 
Was about to say the same thing as Wizarus. If the Torn-T player had Focus Blast, he should've used it at the end. It would've given him a chance to win as opposed to losing outright. Using this battle doesn't exactly tell us anything about whether Tornadus-T is broken because of the bad plays on his part. He stayed on with his Tornadus-T on a scarfed Landorus-T lol.

Unlike Tornadus-T, Keldeo gets shafted by certain defensive (and potentially, offensive) cores and has counters that are genuinely useful in OU.
Scarfed HP Ghost can't even touch Jellicent unless there's a lot of prior damage or all entry hazards are laid down.

252 SpAtk Keldeo-R Hidden Power Ghost vs 248 HP/0 SpDef Jellicent: 36.23% - 43.18%
Entry hazards damage: 50
After entry hazards: 196 - 224 (48.64% - 55.58%)
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Specs Hp Ghost only 2HKOs Jellicent and Hp Ghost isn't usually the move that you'd like to lock yourself into most of the time.
Amoonguss solidly walls ALL Keldeo sets providing that the Keldeo isn't behind a sub AND at +3 or something. Honestly, if you let Keldeo get to +3 then it's not really our problem anymore.

0 SpAtk Amoonguss Giga Drain vs 4 HP/0 +3 SpDef Keldeo: 20.37% - 24.07%
5 hits to KO

Keldeo can only 2HKO Amoonguss with a LO Hydro Pump in Rain at +1.

Having the same play styles makes the meta-game boring and stagnant, while finding ways to beat new potential pokemon, makes the game fun and exciting, whether it's with different move sets or different pokemon that people usually don't use. This is exactly what happens when a new generation comes out, so why does it matter when unreleased, or different forms of pokemon come out?
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ScarfWynaut pretty much said what I wanted to say, but people can choose to use underrated (or sets never seen in OU) to try and shake it up a little bit. That's why the Darkhorse Challenge existed. OU isn't usually the tier with the most 'original' teams because we've already discovered what's good in the metagame and what isn't.


Edit: @Preserve: It's far too risky to stay in on a Landorus-T if you don't see lefties recovery in my opinion.
 
Kidogo said:
Just a mention, amoonguss can also run seed bomb which will always break keldeo's subs regardless of CM boosts.
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No that is terribad. Amoonguss is often needed to take burns from scalds, if you run seed bomb, you are at a disadvantage almost always, even on Keldeo teams with scald Politoed.

Amoonguss should always have 28 special attack evs to break a sub at +2, which is all it needs. If Keldeo decides to spam calm mind, its getting over 50% damage before it is even at +3-you-can't-break-my-sub-point, if keldeo decides to do that, which is quite the hefty bit of damage. With another sub before it dies, Keldeo will be at under 25%. Also, odds are somewhere in those moves Amoonguss will (should) use clear smog to get rid of boosts or stun spore to cripple it. Unless the Keldeo user has the prediction of a God, its not beating Amoonguss.
 
Guys stay on topic. I just deleted 8 posts which were just back and forth arguments over why the battle listed was shitty. Any more pointless bickering like that will be met with an infraction.

Christ, I made this thread 16 pages again.
 
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