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np: BW Ubers Suspect Testing Round 1 - Mama Said Knock You Out UPDATE POST #95
- Thread starter bojangles
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That quiz seems kinda fun. <.<
If I have the requirements already (2051, deviation of 55) and decide to take this quiz and do badly will I not be able to vote? :s
If I have the requirements already (2051, deviation of 55) and decide to take this quiz and do badly will I not be able to vote? :s
I might sound really stupid in this post but, just to clarify, are we allowed to send in a special app as long as we get the deviation/battle reqs by November 9 or is it only available for people who made the deviation/battle reqs by November 2?
At least you can determine what is 'broken' in a somewhat objective manner. "Enjoyable" is a very very subjective term (lol who is "we" when you are talking about enjoying something?).
A lot of ppl don't find OU Gen II/V "enjoyable" just to mention an example. It should not be a measuring stick on whether we ban/unban things (I don't recall Blissey being banned in Gen II; hint: she was not broken).
Off topic: Blissey is not even good in Gen 2, js
Its also kinda hard to gauge some things as making the game more enjoyable. OHKO moves are obviously pretty dumb and only hinder the game, but they were pretty rare in my experience on the ladder and don't really affect it too much seeing as they are as unreliable as it gets.
Things like Kyurem-B going down to OU imo doesn't make the game enjoyable at all, making steel types even more of a necessity. Is Kyurem-B broken though? Since the majority voted no, it clearly isn't. Just something to think about I guess.
Its also kinda hard to gauge some things as making the game more enjoyable. OHKO moves are obviously pretty dumb and only hinder the game, but they were pretty rare in my experience on the ladder and don't really affect it too much seeing as they are as unreliable as it gets.
Things like Kyurem-B going down to OU imo doesn't make the game enjoyable at all, making steel types even more of a necessity. Is Kyurem-B broken though? Since the majority voted no, it clearly isn't. Just something to think about I guess.
I actually think OHKO moves are broken. We're talking about a 30% chance to OHKO here. No, not a Scald burn or Thunder paralysis, which doesn't spell immediate doom. Immediate OHKO. An instant-kill on one crucial mon or two is just game-changing. We have no place for OHKO in a healthy metagame.
it's a matter of neccessity, if we were to go purely by 'objective' levels of brokenness in pokemon then we may very well end up unbanning sleep, it's probably manageable with sdef manaphy, but if ubers turns into a metagame revolving around sleeping and managing sleep then you'll be damned sure i'll argue it's an unenjoyable metagame, regardless of being 'subjective'. there's a need to bring up enjoyable vs broken because an extreme of the former can lead to a severely stagnant and shitty tier, and while some might be content in adhering to consistencies, precedents, and a strict stick to and abide by objectivity whenever possible, i argue that doing so will ruin the metagame.
can we not just apply philosophies and argue semantics? look at the bigger picture, think of what acutally happens / will happen to the metagame, presence should be considered over prevalence; experienced players have presented extremely strong cases for viable OHKO pokemon. regardless of how popular / unpopular they are now, they will rise in usage when people learn to build around them properly, they will be a legitimate threat whose best response leads to the stagnation of a metagame to offense and the invalidation of defensive playstyles.
when tiering pokemon there will always be a large amount of subjectivity, that's why we have voting in the first place; one cannot deduce the objectively correct answer.
the fact of the matter is that i can't see anyone 'enjoying' a metagame with OHKO moves, and although their actual effects might seem low their potential is huge, and it is that potential that i am afraid of.
exactly my point. I know you won't enjoy it.
and neither will most of us.
Poppy's definition of an enjoyable metagame is one that is diverse and balanced. OHKO moves does not bring anymore diversity, but rather restricts the metagame further to an extent that its centralization force is undesirable to the metagame. Poppy's (and most of our) enjoyable metagame is far more aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours.
Poppy's definition of an enjoyable metagame is one that is diverse and balanced. OHKO moves does not bring anymore diversity, but rather restricts the metagame further to an extent that its centralization force is undesirable to the metagame. Poppy's (and most of our) enjoyable metagame is far more aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours.
I don't see how this is too terribly complicated. If a majority of players who have proven their competence, and at least in some way dedication, to the ubers metagame, decide that they feel it is not a healthy addition, it will not be allowed. Arguing that any type of voting, or suspect, process can be objective is an irrational stance, even if you don't qualify it afterwards by stating that your potentially minority opinion should dominate the tier.
^ lol, that's the problem. If you check my last posts, I haven't even said anything about my position about OHKO moves. I'm just rather pointing out how people like you and poppy are not so smartly trying to discuss things (based on subjective matters).
Diverse is hardly applicable to Ubers where due to competitiveness the best pokes are mainly used. If you check the monthly stats you will see Ubers that rarely see any play. Then again, it could be diverse to you (subjectivity again) but not to other people. Failure to recognize what I'm trying to say here is what -usually- keeps me out of discussion with "moderators". I actually like that some of these things are being tested but the way that some of the players are arguing is questionable if not somewhat amusing to say the least.
@Syrim: I don't care much about the final decision (whether Tornadus is OU or Uber, Swift Swim ban, Moody, etc.) but rather the way people favor one thing over the other. The voting process itself doesn't guarantee that let's say 3 friends that are decent at Ubers create multiple accts, ladder to get the requisites and then vote for "X" giving mediocre explanations why.
Diverse is hardly applicable to Ubers where due to competitiveness the best pokes are mainly used. If you check the monthly stats you will see Ubers that rarely see any play. Then again, it could be diverse to you (subjectivity again) but not to other people. Failure to recognize what I'm trying to say here is what -usually- keeps me out of discussion with "moderators". I actually like that some of these things are being tested but the way that some of the players are arguing is questionable if not somewhat amusing to say the least.
@Syrim: I don't care much about the final decision (whether Tornadus is OU or Uber, Swift Swim ban, Moody, etc.) but rather the way people favor one thing over the other. The voting process itself doesn't guarantee that let's say 3 friends that are decent at Ubers create multiple accts, ladder to get the requisites and then vote for "X" giving mediocre explanations why.
How are we discussing things in an unproductive or irrational way. We have set out with no preconceived notions, and tested the moves in an new environment. We have attempted to simulate what the metagame would eventually look like by discussing possible sets as a community and furthering knoweldge.
I'll attempt to prove this and answer your latest post by making it relevant to your earlier ones.
Once again, you are being at the very least unproductive. You can't really define "broken" without defining enjoyable. The very defintion of broken, if we use the "charecteristics of an uber" post:jump: as a jumping off point, center around keeping factors that the vast majority of players don't enjoy from being present, e.g. a mon that sweeps with ease, sets up with ease, or makes the game very centric on the playstyles or strategies it and it alone enables.
Again, the two terms aren't as dissonant as you make them seem. The fact that this is a subjective vote, and that the factors that make a player in any metagame decide something is broken are subjective, mean this is essentially a moot point that doesn't even correctly address semantic problems.
Edit for an edit; If all you care about is the way we favor one thing or the other, and that feeling comes about from the result of the closest thing to objectivity we have, suspect ladder testing and many many matches, then what is your claim based on?
GreatSage and his pocket IP checker also ensure the security of the ladder.
I'll attempt to prove this and answer your latest post by making it relevant to your earlier ones.
Once again, you are being at the very least unproductive. You can't really define "broken" without defining enjoyable. The very defintion of broken, if we use the "charecteristics of an uber" post:jump: as a jumping off point, center around keeping factors that the vast majority of players don't enjoy from being present, e.g. a mon that sweeps with ease, sets up with ease, or makes the game very centric on the playstyles or strategies it and it alone enables.
Again, the two terms aren't as dissonant as you make them seem. The fact that this is a subjective vote, and that the factors that make a player in any metagame decide something is broken are subjective, mean this is essentially a moot point that doesn't even correctly address semantic problems.
Edit for an edit; If all you care about is the way we favor one thing or the other, and that feeling comes about from the result of the closest thing to objectivity we have, suspect ladder testing and many many matches, then what is your claim based on?
GreatSage and his pocket IP checker also ensure the security of the ladder.
I find Substitute to be the biggest bane of OHKO moves: A lot of times on the first turn OHKO's tend to miss, letting the person get their Sub up. Then, while they're still attempting to OHKO you, you get a free turn of set-up, like Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Spore, you name it. Then the OHKO user is back on their heels. It's probably one of the biggest reasons I stopped using them for the most part (as well as the increased attack scores in D/P/Pt and up)
-James
I find it to be the bane of sleep as well. If we reintroduced sleep into the metagame, sweepers with substitutes and lum berries, as with the postulated lum SubDD mence would become much more popular. I'd also like to point out that i didn't mention safeguard, magic coat, or heal bell/aromatherapy. The last option is great for my argument, too-you can wipe away all that sleep with just one move. The other two are... not particularly viable; Safeguard is occasionally used on wobbuffett, and magic coat on leads.
Not to mention, unless you're carrying subs on everything (Or even just a lot of your pokemon), OHKO moves can still be used as you switch them in. If you force them out from there so badly, they're probably not going to risk using a 30% move and allowing you to set up, even without a sub. Meanwhile, most sweepers have trouble forgoing a move in general, especially for substitute. The ones that do are either bulky, double dancers, or SD ray, but t-wave>SD, especially for a pokemon that can attract both scarfers and phazers.
Face it, anything GF has ever made "can" be adapted to. The main breaking points usually come when people start overpreparing to a point that it seriously hurts their team against any other team, or when people just start fighting fire with fire. The only other breaking point is generally "Stupid luck BS", such as the evasion clause, which comes when people are tired of so many games hinging on dice rolls and the RNG.
Edit: Of course they lose you more than they win. But they win you matches based not on strategy but on luck, which makes it the opposite of any competitive endeavor.
Also, it's 90 power. But that whole "lack of distribution" thing-only ubers has serious distribution;other than that it's lucario and togekiss.
Electrode Kaboom
A formal Pokemon exam? Jesus Christ... To anyone seriously filling this out, stop for a minute and please re-evaluate your life.
3 minutes ago
This made me lol.
Edit: But on a more serious note, OHKO Moves really just eliminate all aspects of competitive play in my opinion. Yeah, 30% accuracy sucks, but the fact that you don't need to do anything, and just slap Sheer Cold on something just to eliminate any Pokemon of your choosing seems like shit to me.
Personally, I find evasion moves too much the roll of the dice: It has cost me more matches than it has won me (by not a small margin either) and don't understand why it's even in place (even if it's stupid). I think there should be more perfect accuracy moves with better accuracy to deal with the problem however: Aura Sphere with 80 power as the strongest move isn't exactly a surefire counter.
I'd rather do a test about probability (because this is what this test is on, granted, it's about Pokemon, but a good 80% of it is just about probability, like any test you do at school) than playing other 50 matches on any given ladder hoping I don't get haxed by some skillful trainer and his very well trained Pokemon, it takes a lot less time, and it saves me anger and frustration, and it helps me revising stuff too!
On the topic of OHKOs, I played both with and against them. Aside from the "luck" factor, I think that they are, in fact, broken. The fact that they bring "luck" into the game isn't a factor to consider them broken though, because literally everything in this game is about luck (Damage rolls, secondary effects and all that kind of stuff), but rather seeing as how they harm a regular Pokemon match. Seeing as how, for example, Kyogre can now defeat CM Latias by killing it (and you have more than one shot at it, since Latias can't OHKO Kyogre at +0 and usually it's Latias that switches into Kyogre) with Sheer Cold more than 50% of the times (30% - 51%), or any other Pokemon that's switching in seems rather terrible to me.
Blocking Excadrill from spinning with Giratina becomes literally impossible, since it has more than a chance to Fissure your Giratina, killing not only your spinblocker, but also your check for a whole lot of Pokemon, and if it missed Fissure the 1st time, I'd be very reluctant to send my Giratina in again, making Excadrill's job (spinning, you shouldn't really run Fissure on a offensive SD set) too easy to do.
Instead of actually having to play the right mindgames (EQing with Excadrill Giratina on the switch in et similia), all I have to do is click on Fissure, having a 30% to one shot a good portion of the metagame, and then spinning freely, removing the skill factor by the equation.
I also faced a SubToxic Gliscor with Guillotine, and it was terrific to say the least, the only ways to defeat it are: RestTalk Giratina/-O or Skarmory, all the rest is simply Toxic stalled /taken out of the game easily, especially since Gliscor will most likely be behind a sub AND faster, so it has, again, a chance to win that is higher than the 50%, and if you send in something faster it will most likely be Toxic stalled.
I won and lost games thanks to OHKOs (lost more because I didn't use them for long), and while they may seem unreliable on paper, they can change games drastically without having to rely on any sort of skill / prediction / mindgame / whatever you like to call it. Both offensive and stall teams have problems facing OHKOs.
As I already said, Excadrill can now take out Giratina easily, Gliscor can take out a lot of stuff easily (and even if Skarmory comes in, you can just go to your Excadrill and spin, or go for Fissure!). Kyogre can now defeat CM Latias / Gastrodon easily without having to play around them and even kill other switch ins if the opp wants to save Latias/Gastrodon for later.
I'll send my test answers as soon as I'm not too braindead from university work to finish them all.
Don't know the answers 100% but I assume...
1) Great Sage did say that on Friday at 11:59:59 PM the special application are due, so I assume the round is over as well. So maybe 2-3 days afterwards they will sort everything out and voting will begin?
2) If you got 2000 points then nah you don't have to do this.
1) Great Sage did say that on Friday at 11:59:59 PM the special application are due, so I assume the round is over as well. So maybe 2-3 days afterwards they will sort everything out and voting will begin?
2) If you got 2000 points then nah you don't have to do this.
Imo, Stall is one of the best playstyles. Threats like cosmic power ghostceus take ubers like storm. We have incredible hazards setters and spin blockers which do so much for teams that HO finds itself in a lot of trouble usually. The thing about the metagame is that it ADAPTS. When scarfsect was released, things got shaken up. Same with new items and other similar pokemon. Stall will not die if OHKO moves are released. However, players that like to regurgitate the same stuff that got them by in the past will barely see the fissure excadrill take out their vegetating GiratinaO through the watery film covering their eyes as they moan about the death of stall. Just use a substitute. It really is that simple. Put yourself in a position where you don't have to make insane predictions all the time. If you are, then you're doing it wrong. I think that stall benefits more from OHKO moves than hyper offense. Stall can actually put these moves to use as stall has the opportunity to. We really could use more substitutes in Ubers.
Guys, Stall is only going to get stronger. It will be DIFFERENT, but it will be stall. Giving artists with crayons really nice paintbrushes definitely means that there won't be much reason to draw with crayons anymore. But that doesn't mean that adding painbrushes ends all art. It's going to be different, and much better. More options, more moves, more diversity. Stop being so afraid of change.
I've used OHKO, I've dealt with OHKO, and I've used stall teams with more success than any other teams. I didn't get the ranking in time, but my vote is definitely going to add OHKO moves. Whining about an undesirable meta is completely bogus. Votes for this reason aren't really votes at all imo. OHKO is not broken, and shouldn't be banned. Ubers isn't as stale as OU, but OHKO moves add a nice twist.
Locoghul merely points out that this is POPPY's definition. Not Smogon's, but POPPY'S. The fact that you happen to agree with it doesn't mean that it is "aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours." Someone could easily argue that Stall is a terribly mundane playstyle that goes against the spirit of competitive battling VERY EASILY. I'd like to see the large scale study you did on smogon to find that "most of us" prefer hazards and phazing wars over hyper offense battles, if you can consider that "diversity". I think that many dislike the stall playstyle, and would like to see more diversity in high stakes hyper offense battles than the same boring sleep talk roar/dtail giratina. (Voting because you want/don't want stall to die is silly because Stall will remain regardless.)
I respectfully disagree. Scald and Thunder aren't moves that ONLY burn or paralyze with 30% chance, but have obscene BP with STAB, and usually are used in the rain. They're used to DAMAGE more than spread status for the most part.
In cases where they aren't,
I see no difference between a scarfogre trying to burn SD rayquaza and save the game or one using Sheer Cold instead. Same luck involved.
Guys, Stall is only going to get stronger. It will be DIFFERENT, but it will be stall. Giving artists with crayons really nice paintbrushes definitely means that there won't be much reason to draw with crayons anymore. But that doesn't mean that adding painbrushes ends all art. It's going to be different, and much better. More options, more moves, more diversity. Stop being so afraid of change.
I've used OHKO, I've dealt with OHKO, and I've used stall teams with more success than any other teams. I didn't get the ranking in time, but my vote is definitely going to add OHKO moves. Whining about an undesirable meta is completely bogus. Votes for this reason aren't really votes at all imo. OHKO is not broken, and shouldn't be banned. Ubers isn't as stale as OU, but OHKO moves add a nice twist.
Locoghul merely points out that this is POPPY's definition. Not Smogon's, but POPPY'S. The fact that you happen to agree with it doesn't mean that it is "aligned with Smogon's spirit of a competitive game than yours." Someone could easily argue that Stall is a terribly mundane playstyle that goes against the spirit of competitive battling VERY EASILY. I'd like to see the large scale study you did on smogon to find that "most of us" prefer hazards and phazing wars over hyper offense battles, if you can consider that "diversity". I think that many dislike the stall playstyle, and would like to see more diversity in high stakes hyper offense battles than the same boring sleep talk roar/dtail giratina. (Voting because you want/don't want stall to die is silly because Stall will remain regardless.)
I respectfully disagree. Scald and Thunder aren't moves that ONLY burn or paralyze with 30% chance, but have obscene BP with STAB, and usually are used in the rain. They're used to DAMAGE more than spread status for the most part.
In cases where they aren't,
I see no difference between a scarfogre trying to burn SD rayquaza and save the game or one using Sheer Cold instead. Same luck involved.
Yeah, I think OHKO moves should remain band as it can ruin cheks and counters to a poke without any chance for the defender to control it.
Kyogre is ofc the best user of it, now it can OHKO its best checks, just fire of a sheer coold when your oponent goes in to its obligatory kyogre check. You have really nothing to loose on doing so. And unless people starting to run sub latias kyogre has a good chance of beating its best counter, there is is no longer a such thing as a kyogre check
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