np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
The MAIN reason to ban Skymin is the luck factor, one much stronger than brought by "similar" examples like Jirachi or Togekiss. First:

Element of Luck
I know a lot of people have been bringing up skymin being too dependent on luck, but honestly, luck will always be a factor of mons. As long as there's no swagger/confusion clause, then I highly doubt we can ban skymin solely on the basis of "it adds luck to the game". There are lots of resources and arguments about rng in games, such as poker, tcgs, mmos, etc. and I'm not going to repeat it all here but this: removing skymin won't remove hax from the game. T-wave, accuracy misses, all these things will always exist as aspects of the game. But, good players will be able to maximize their chances of winning, and, on an overall record, consistently pull through victories.


If you look throughout Suspect history, especially the multiple votes across generations for the Skymin Suspect tests like the one where it got a 100% ban vote, luck factor has been a gigantic consideration and we're more than free to use it as a basis. No one thinks removing Skymin removes luck from the game because you'd have to be insane to believe so, however; Skymin is a source of luck greater than all others. Not even just for the opponent to have to worry about but for the user. I don't at all buy arguments that use Skymin missing as a sort of evidence that it isn't broken, thats more hax being involved in the game lol. If all my "hax moves" have a slight chance of missing this creates a scenario in which tactics and strategy are greatly diminished because Player A has to wish for a hit while Player B has to play with the idea of not flinching/missing himself.

Weather Argument

Ok I've seen this come up a few times so I'll just address it without specific quoting. The greater speed accessed by weather is pretty nice but most teams only have one abuser (Ludicolo, Venusaur, etc). Your weather mon will not always be on the field while Skymin is but that's not where I'm going with this. Weather is not at all an end-all-be-all answer here, it merely allows you the possibility to beat it. Let's look at the common scenario of the PoliLudi leads. There are plenty of situations that can happen here but the ones I can think of instantly here these:

A) Skymin stays in because it has Focus Sash and smacks Politoed/the switch

B) Skymin stays in because it has Focus Sash and deals damage to Ludicolo

C) Skymin doesn't stay in or Protects itself and allows the partner to beat down Ludicolo

D) For one reason or another, the Skymin user allows it to be KO'd by Ludicolo

I wouldn't call this exactly clear cut, there are a good amount of scenarios in which Skymin still deals strong damage to the opponent and strong playing is required by the Rain user. Not to say that having to play is a problem but Rain's Swift Swim advantage alone is not enough. I feel it is also worth pointing out that a majority of weather abusers can be hit by Skymin for SE damage (the only one I can think of that isn't is Kingdra).

In general I'm opposed to banning things simply because of the open nature of the Doubles metagame. While some Pokemon are better than others (Kang > Cacturne), there are a wide variety of viable Pokemon choices that aren't usually selected for one reason or another. The presence of threats in the metagame like Shaymin-Sky encourages people to seek out options to beat it. Specific niche picks become more viable and, worst come to worst, you have to take up an entire team slot with a dedicated counter like that terrible Pokemon Thundurus. Shaymin-Sky is just too easy to play around when used by less experienced players, and while it's difficult to beat when used by the better Doubles players, well, that can be said of anything used by a more experienced player. Assuming a more experienced player would use it anyway considering that it doesn't have a good 100% accurate STAB. Shaymin-Sky just has one too many problems for me to believe banning it would be justified.
I agree with the anti-ban philosophy for Doubles because I believe you have a lot more room than Singles does to play around something. I wouldn't say Skymin was "as broken" as it has traditionally been in a Singles metagame but Skymin's hax ability is broken in any metagame you put it in.

I notice that the argument "good players wouldn't use Skymin, it isn't consistent" has popped up a number of times. I think this argument is pretty dumb to be honest but arguing against it may very well come off as elitist or something. I'm gonna go for it anyway but at least by addressing this you can tell I don't mean to sound this way! SOOOOOOO I can see why this argument exists because relying on hax isn't always a great idea but not only are you getting hax in your favor most of the time, but tournament history here shows that good players will and have use Skymin. How do I know this? Well as, at the very least, one of the more successful DOU players I've used Skymin A LOT in tournament play and it is just fuckin awesome. This is why I've pushed for the suspect test for so long, I've used it at the highest level play one can in DOU successfully and know from experience that the hax factor it brings to the game of Pokemon itself is just unhealthy and stupid.

The number of anti-ban posts has me thinking it's actually possible you guys won't vote Ban so I'll ladder myself as soon as it starts working! BAN SKYMIN
 
Shaymin-Sky (skymin) is probably one of the best support mons I've seen for my first time playing Doubles. This tier relies heavily on offense where Skymin feels at home and has the ability to out speed around 90% of the metagame with the serene grace ability to increase it's flinch chances with Air Slash and SP Def Drops w/ Seed Flare assuming they hit its target. Standard Skymin, also provides Tailwind since people usually switch when they see skymin, even though most have a hard time coming in risking getting sp def dropped. And holding a focus sash means that almost always able to set it. Things like Mega Kanga, Lando-i and Lando-t, Aegislash, Keldeo, the list continues appreciates the tailwind support. Skymin is also a decent wall-breaker thanks to the Seed Flare drops, also can be even more helpful for a team w/ coverage like Life Orb Earth Power for Heatrans or HP Rock for a nice surprise to Talon providing more team support

I wouldn't call Skymin broken. It's frail and can't 2hko anything w/o it getting drops or flinches. I think it's just its ability to hax it's way through the tier with good chances in its favor BECAUSE of its speed and ability is uncompetitive. You still have things like Togekiss and Jirachi that do the same shit as an Air Slash from skymin, but again, it's the speed differences that causes a separation, obviously. You won't be seeing these Toge or Rachi flinching a Darkrai anytime soon barring scarf users. The tier can also be slow at times with Aegislash, Amoongus, Cress, Azu, and so forth, all enjoy the use of Trick Room, which is viable in a sense, or seems like it. I'm seeing a few people calling it bad for some reason or stating that Skymin can just flinch it's way through a TR user, making TR "bad" which I find ridiculous. If you dont get the Air Slash Flinch, what is your 127 Based Speed mon doing to TR next turn? If your only chance of facing TR is being in this scenario and hoping u hit and also flinch a TR user on the first turn, that gives skymin more of a reason to be placed in the noncompetitive category, or you're just using a bad skymin team and you should adjust. Leaning towards Ban
just talking about the point of skymin vs TR:

the reason people say skymin is great vs trick room is that it's able to really drain TR's resources while TR tries to set. Against Hyper Offense, TR typically can't win if it only gets to set TR once, it has to set it twice. TR's typical tools to support a set are Fake Out and redirection (usually amoonguss). Skymin + Fake Out support invalidates all of TR's traditional setup assistance; skymin makes it difficult to set with its flinch chance, where even a single flinch turn means huge damage on a setter, something you cant afford to take. (skymin + infernape can also do the traditional skymin + keld ohko anything move). You can't even predict it and go for a double set to cover options like you can with Fake Out because if you don't flinch then you just undo your own TR. The traditional play for HO vs TR is to damage TR's capability to set as much as possible before the first set, then preserve its best Pokemon as it takes a loss through the first round of TR, then win the game. Here is an example of the HO vs TR matchup in action (though it doesnt actually use skymin flinches to accomplish it, it gives you an example of how the MU plays): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesoususpecttest-255322181.

However, I don't think the Skymin matchup is as terrible as I previously did, because I've been looking at new tools for TR to play around with. Particularly, I'm thinking about Talonflame, who has good matchups with Taunt Keld, Skymin, Kangaskhan, Aegislash, and Bisharp, all traditional problems for TR—great support when TR hasn't been set and still usable when it has. There's also Abomasnow, which was previously held back by the fact that it had a terrible Aegislash matchup but I've been looking at Hoopa-U and Porygon2 as pokemon that work on TR teams without having a terrible Aegislash matchup so aboma is a better pick then, or Hoopa-U itself which prevents Skymin from coming in on the last turn of TR and protecting.

(However I'm really not sure if Hoopa-U is actually good on TR lol, its been pretty shit on my team. so maybe not, still though Talon and Abomasnow).

Also, mons such as jirachi/togekiss are way bigger threats to trick room than skymin, as they don't become absolute dead weight after tr is up.
this is false for three reasons: 1) unless they're goggles, amoonguss can redirect them. 2) they don't deal much damage—skymin on the other hand is both able to make the first set hell and able to clean at the end of the TR like in my replay. 3) they don't fit as well on Hyper Offense which is the matchup people are saying is unwinnable for TR.

-----------

The other thing I want to address right now is the argument that we should ban skymin because of "hax factor." People like talkingtree and mizuhime have advanced this point and frankly I couldn't disagree more. Playing the odds is a valid strategy and it can require just as much skill as anything else that happens in high level competitive Pokemon. Many VGC champions have used Swagger on their teams; there's nothing wrong with this and it certainly doesn't detract from their skill. There is nothing inherently evil or banworthy in "hax" unless it reaches the point where the player is hardly even playing the game (like Lady Gaga's swagger team in OU). I think we can agree that Skymin isn't even close to that level—it requires plenty of skill to use properly. I reject out of hand the idea that playing the odds should be banned; there are plenty of strategies that are playing the odds—swagger, thunder wave, rock slide, and even things like using SubTran to endgame beat CM Cress. I obviously can't stop you from voting on this but things like talkingtree's "i felt dirty when i used skymin" are just not valid reasons to ban something.

Shaymin-Sky is not uncompetitive. The question to ask is is Shaymin-S—a 68% chance to ohko virtually anything with a double target and a 57% chance to incapacitate almost every non-scarfer for a turn, in addition to its already good offensive stats and powerful grass-type STAB—traditionally broken? I'm not sure; I have thoughts on this but this post is already long enough and im hungry and tired of writing so i'll write more posts some other time. But I want us to focus on the right question.

P.S. are people really saying good players don't use skymin? lol it's not hard to prove that that isn't the case—in fact we've always used skymin the most. Skymin had 20% usage in the top 32 of the winter seasonal.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
All I'm gonna say on the luck matter is that the council has refused to ban Swagger bc omg you can selfswag very competitive!!1!!11!

If your only reason to ban is luck (and that's the only argument I've seen many people put forward because I GUESS they realize it's not centralizing and it's not broken), then please demand a swagger council vote and rock slide test next. Maybe Defog Serperior too. Otherwise you're cherrypicking for reasons I cannot understand.

Make actual arguments that it's broken please. Luck is never a good argument unless it is turning entire games on its head. And Skymin just doesn't. Not against a competently prepared team.
 

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Luck has been a good enough reason to ban it for 3 generations, what the council decides to hold tests on is an entirely different matter. Centralization isn't even a ban reason, when was something ever banned for this reason? Stratos also already addressed that "there is a line to cross" and if Skymin is up for testing then I guess it has crossed that "luck line". You do not prepare for Skymin's luck. Removing strategy and tactics with luck of such degree is in itself enough of a reason and much different than whatever stupid Defog Serp bullshit you're bringing up lol
 
You wouldn't say that mence crossed a "luck line," yet it was suspected. Same with Skymin. It's not being suspected because of luck, it's being suspected because it's very strong.

Also srk i don't think anyone refused to ban swagger because of self swag, we refused to ban it because we don't think swagging your opponent is broken or uncompetitive.

This test is not about "luck" or "hax" or "uncompetitiveness" it is about the fact that skymin, while a legitimate and skill-based strategy, may be overpowered or imbalance the meta towards offense.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Luck has been a good enough reason to ban it for 3 generations, what the council decides to hold tests on is an entirely different matter. Centralization isn't even a ban reason, when was something ever banned for this reason? Stratos also already addressed that "there is a line to cross" and if Skymin is up for testing then I guess it has crossed that "luck line". You do not prepare for Skymin's luck. Removing strategy and tactics with luck of such degree is in itself enough of a reason and much different than whatever stupid Defog Serp bullshit you're bringing up lol
You Defog teammate serperior to gain evasion, which isn't yet banned under evasion clause
 

talkingtree

Workin' out, sleepin' in, takin' vitamins
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
Ok after having a few days to think about the suspect and listen to the song on repeat like we're supposed to, I've come to a decision. Do I "Hate to Love" Skymin? Hell yes. But is it ban-worthy or broken? Sadly, no. Let me explain, because I, like many others here, was initially pro-ban. But that's what suspect tests are for, to challenge your opinions and rethink any pre-conceived notions you have going into the test. I urge everyone here to do their best to take a step back and really try to read and understand what everyone is saying, because the majority of the posts on this thread provide invaluable insight into Skymin's influence on the metagame and discussion that otherwise would not have come up.

There's not much I can say that's new, so instead I'll do my best to sum up the arguments that convinced me of my newly arrived at opinion. Shaymin-Sky can be annoying to face, and it is definitely a big presence in the metagame. People who are saying that it isn't that good, isn't considered when teambuilding, or isn't used often are confused. However, Skymin has just enough exploitable weaknesses and not quite enough sheer power to be broken. Some of these weaknesses include redirection, speed control, priority, and scarfers/Mega Gengar. These weaknesses are being presented badly, however. The majority of the time, you cannot control when your opponent has a Skymin check out, and so it is up to the Skymin user to avoid having it out when it can be threatened by its admittedly vast number of weaknesses, and up to the opponent to keep the pressure on and prevent Skymin from keeping all the momentum. Shaymin-Sky on its own cannot control the momentum of the game, and these "automatic-KO" double targets and flinches are avoidable by good plays and predictions. In other words, Shaymin does not grant any considerable advantage to the user just by its presence. Or, if it does, then no more so than many other Tier 1 threats. It is not broken.

Many people have brought up the Shaymin + Keldeo agreement as a similar one to Mence + Jirachi, but they aren't really that similar. Jirachi is an almost entirely support mon, brought onto the teams in the Mence meta that it was with almost entirely the sole purpose of supporting Mence's sweep and setup. Skymin and Keldeo are huge offensive presences on their own, and don't have to be used as a pair, so I would request that we stop treating them as such. Not only that, using a double-target that relies on a 68% chance to knock out a wall is unreliable and, most times, impractical, since the teammate you do not target is free to do what it wants.

Shaymin is luck-based, yes, and it can cause games to be shifted dramatically one way or the other. But so can many other forms of hax - just look at my g1 vs KyleCole in summer seasonal. I got a double rock slide miss and he lost his auto-win. So I take back some of my previous statements and although I feel less responsible and justified for a win when I get it through a Serene Grace drop/flinch, that feeling isn't enough to make it broken or ban-worthy. PerishTrap can be super unfun to face and seems like an entirely different game to play than the rest of Doubles, but it's not fair to say that we should ban it just because it doesn't fit your idea of DOU. This meta is expansive and varied and we allow things like Thunder Wave, Rock Slide, Flash, and Swagger because it provides a new type of experience but doesn't hinder the generally more viable strategies that don't rely on luck as much.

I, personally, do not enjoy using or facing Skymin for reasons outlined in my last post. But it doesn't deserve to be banned for that alone. So, sadly, unless someone posts something extraordinary to convince me otherwise, I'll be voting to KEEP SKYMIN. That was a lot of rambling and a really long post so hopefully I made sense. If anything I said seems off to you, please question me. I know I'm still decently new to the tier and I want to be as informed as possible in making my vote.

P.S. I see the points that Stratos and Bughouse are making, but I feel like they're making the argument that Shaymin-Sky's potential brokenness is unrelated to the luck factor it provides, and imho the two are extremely connected. Shaymin is being tested because of the luck factor in addition to its power, and without that "luck factor" it wouldn't even be Tier 1. So don't act like we should ignore all luck provided when using Skymin if it's an integral part of how Skymin works.
 
Im not saying that skymin would be any good if it didn't get seed flare drops and air slash flinches im saying that the train of thought "it uses effect chances to be powerful, therefore it is haxy and unlegit" has nothing to do with the suspect test and is bullshit

I dont know how many ways i can express this but im going to keep repeating it until it gets through
 
I'm not gonna post paragraphs like some people have restating the exact same points, but if you're having trouble playing around Shaymin-Sky here are some perfectly reasonable Pokemon that can fit on a variety of teams. I'll separate these into competitively viable / niche categories so that you don't all get pissed when you see Mega Dactyl (although its a good ass mon). Please don't respond to this with CANT SWITCH INTO SEED FLARE DROPS because I know shut up, I'm not saying Skymin isn't or is banworthy, I'm just giving the people who are spamming bunnies and expecting to win every game you guys some options to try if you're struggling. Not all of these are hard counters of course, some are pretty loose checks but even the worst of these Pokemon beat Skymin 1v1. Explore your options, don't be content with losing to Skymin with a bad team, then complaining how you lost when you weren't prepared.

To find these checks/counters I ran calcs against Timid + Sash Skymin because it's the only relevant set. Yes it is. Yes it is.

One more thing, YOU GET A PARTNER TOO! No, Talonflame does not beat Skymin + Rhyperior but that doesn't mean it isn't a skymin check you fool.

Competitively Viable (mons on the viability rankings that have a Standard set which beats Shaymin-Sky)
  • Mega Kangaskhan (wins with 2 Suckers 100% or 1 Return 93.8%)
  • Choice Scarf Lando-T (2HKOs with Rockslide and survives a Seed Flare)
  • Focus Sash Bisharp (This is pretty loose, but spamming Sucker will win 1v1)
  • Talonflame
  • Thundurus-I
  • Choice Scarf Thundurus-T
  • Focus Sash Deoxys-Attack
  • Swift Swim Ice Beam Ludicolo in rain (Assault Vest is not required)
  • Mega Gengar (Sludge Bomb will OHKO with psn 30% of the time, Skymin cannot OHKO)
  • Choice Scarf Mamoswine with Icicle Spear
  • HP Ice Mega Manectric
  • Ice Beam Choice Scarf Genesect
Competitively Niche (Sets that I have personally used that beat Shaymin-Sky, either the set is not standard, or the Pokemon is not on the viability rankings)
  • Ice Shard Focus Sash Weavile
  • DD Mega Tyranitar
  • Ice Punch Choice Scarf Jirachi
  • Mega Aerodactyl
  • Ice Fang Aerodactyl
  • Choice Scarf Latios (lol)
I didn't even list Pokemon that have the potential to lose to flinch + KO from partner like Kyurem-B, Heattom, and Zapdos. None of these require any form of speed control to win. If you're at a point where Skymin destroys your whole team, build a better team. As for Seed Flare and Air Slash being "noncompetitive" that's your call, but there are definitely ways to build a team that beat Shaymin Sky reliably.
 
Last edited:

Arcticblast

may or may not be a lich
is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Simulator Driveris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
All I'm gonna say on the luck matter is that the council has refused to ban Swagger bc omg you can selfswag very competitive!!1!!11!

If your only reason to ban is luck (and that's the only argument I've seen many people put forward because I GUESS they realize it's not centralizing and it's not broken), then please demand a swagger council vote and rock slide test next. Maybe Defog Serperior too. Otherwise you're cherrypicking for reasons I cannot understand.

Make actual arguments that it's broken please. Luck is never a good argument unless it is turning entire games on its head. And Skymin just doesn't. Not against a competently prepared team.
Defog + Contrary and Flash + Memento are on my "I'd like to get rid of this but I'm too lazy to actually do it" list. Swagger is very matchup-based (lol redirection versus full Swagger teams) and Rock Slide operates by the "if I use this enough I'll get the flinch I need" philosophy.

Skymin, meanwhile, uses Serene Grace to turn what would otherwise be hax into the expected outcome, without having to spend multiple turns fishing for it. One flinch or drop is all you need to turn a game sometimes, but unlike other moves like Rock Slide or Swagger, chances are you're going to get it.
 
Kyle, half of the "viable" checks you listed are completely ass mons, or have to go to one percent just to beat skymin.
Competitively Viable (mons on the viability rankings that have a Standard set which beats Shaymin-Sky)
  • Focus Sash Bisharp (This is pretty loose, but spamming Sucker will win 1v1)
  • Choice Scarf Thundurus-T
  • Focus Sash Deoxys-Attack
  • Choice Scarf Mamoswine with Icicle Spear
  • HP Ice Mega Manectric
  • Ice Beam Choice Scarf Genesect
If you're running fucking Choice Scarf Mamoswine to beat Skymin, that's retarded. Yes, i get that it beats Lando-T as well, that doesn't make it a good mon. These are not good mons, or not good checks to Skymin. Also, if you look at all the checks to SKymin, there are pretty much no defensive checks, because it just flinches fuckin everything. I'll probably talk about this more in a later post, but Skymin's presence in the meta makes it so much more offensive.
 
Kyle, half of the "viable" checks you listed are completely ass mons, or have to go to one percent just to beat skymin.


If you're running fucking Choice Scarf Mamoswine to beat Skymin, that's retarded. Yes, i get that it beats Lando-T as well, that doesn't make it a good mon. These are not good mons, or not good checks to Skymin. Also, if you look at all the checks to SKymin, there are pretty much no defensive checks, because it just flinches fuckin everything. I'll probably talk about this more in a later post, but Skymin's presence in the meta makes it so much more offensive.
these are all on the viability rankings (not counting please dont or whatever it is now). FYI scarf mamo also beats thundy, talon, charizard, etc. and has some of the best coverage in the game. It uses Rock Slide/ EQ/ Ice move / Superpower. Try it.

As for "those aren't defensive checks" both thundurus forms take skymin hits really well, but why does a check need to be defensive? You said yourself that skymin makes the meta more offensive (hopefully no one argues that this makes it ban worthy beyond personal preference) so offensive checks are considerably more viable.

Finally, as for mons that are left with 1% to beat skymin THATS THE POINT OF A SASH, sash gives pokemon like deoxys, bisharp, skymin, and other users positive matchups that they wouldnt normally have. Having a Pokemon go down to a sash to have a winning matchup is still a good matchup and not a drawback in the slightest.
 
Last edited:
Kyle, half of the "viable" checks you listed are completely ass mons, or have to go to one percent just to beat skymin.


If you're running fucking Choice Scarf Mamoswine to beat Skymin, that's retarded. Yes, i get that it beats Lando-T as well, that doesn't make it a good mon. These are not good mons, or not good checks to Skymin. Also, if you look at all the checks to SKymin, there are pretty much no defensive checks, because it just flinches fuckin everything. I'll probably talk about this more in a later post, but Skymin's presence in the meta makes it so much more offensive.
you say half, the only ones id really question are scarf mamo and sash bisharp. which is not really half

*Edit this still leaves up a good number of options nonetheless to beating skymin
 
Last edited:

-Voltage-

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
From an outside perspective, it seems to me that the argument here is whether or not there are enough things to effectively check Skymin, is that right? It seems to me that anyone who's arguing that Skymin will stay in on a TWave, or any Ice move ever needs to sorta out their head on straight again. I'm not the most experienced with Doubles OU, so I'm mainly here to sorta gauge everyone else opinions here, but it seems to me, even from the outside that Skymin seems really broken here.
 
From an outside perspective, it seems to me that the argument here is whether or not there are enough things to effectively check Skymin, is that right? It seems to me that anyone who's arguing that Skymin will stay in on a TWave, or any Ice move ever needs to sorta out their head on straight again. I'm not the most experienced with Doubles OU, so I'm mainly here to sorta gauge everyone else opinions here, but it seems to me, even from the outside that Skymin seems really broken here.
hi, imo i dont advise doing this. This isnt really the point of a suspect, to just get reqs and then base your own vote off of other peoples opinions. If you really do find yourself uncomfortable you could do a bit more laddering (yes ik not the best option thanks critics) or you could try hanging out in the DOU room. This suspect still has a bit of time left and im sure you can learn a good amount about the tier by then in order to make a vote of your own.
 
Well, after laddering for some days and finally getting reqs I have come to a conclusion weather to vote if to ban or not to ban Skymin.

At the start I felt like Skymin in doubles wasnt a treath since it can be easily killed by the other mon but when I used it changed my mind completely. You can always pair it with strong/"complimentary" mons such as Charizard-Y, Mega Kangashkan, Keldeo, or Kyurem Black and you just have to Air Slash (which most of the time flinches) the pokemon that can kill them and get a kill with those mons. It can also flinch to death any mon slower than it or just put them in range of Seed Flare which to be honest is one of the best moves I have ever used. Skymin relies mostly on probability of it flinching or not, if it doesnt flinch it can get killed or weakened since it is frail. Also it does pretty well against any kind of teams; from offenseive teams, outspeeding everything, to defensive teams, hitting them with Air Slash or a stong Seed Flare.

Now, there ARE alot of ways to deal with Skymin, such as priority (Kangashkan, Bisharp, Thudurus-Therian, Talonflame), using faster mons (scarf Kyurem-B, scarf Lando-T, Mega Gengar or even another Skymin), with Tailwind making all your mons faster, with weather (sun has Venusaur, rain has Kingdra, Kabutops, and Swampert-Mega, sand with excadrill and even breaking if it has sash, or hail (the least seen) with Abomasnow´s Ice Shard), and my favorite: with Trick Room.

So after I considered everything, I tought that Skymin was unhealthy to the metagame so I will be voting Ban
 

Twix

this is thriller
is a Contributor Alumnus
When I first started going for reqs, my mentality was that Skymin was a fast annoyance before anything, and wouldn't be such a huge threat to teams unless it continuously flinches your team with Air Slash or gets a drop with Seed Flare. After some testing, I realized that it wasn't such an easy task to take down as I thought. Shaymin-Sky doesn't have incredibly scary stats, however its ability and hax based movepool makes it ridiculously annoying, as well as it having a teammate such as Thundurus which can support it.

The fact of the matter is, you actually have to go out of your way to use Pokemon or sets to take on Skymin, while that slot could be filled with a Pokemon which would better fit your team. Although Shaymin-Sky does have many checks/counters as people have stated before, with the proper support and/or hax, it can blow through them and put holes into a team. I'm not actually sure which way I will vote on this suspect, although I'm leaning towards a ban at this moment.
 

DKFirelord

Back this time I swear!
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
When getting reqs I didn't really seem that much on Shaymin-S and went with an open mind when I first day it really didn't do anything beside be annoyance and flinch or get SpDef Drops with Seed Flare. Then it became annoying when I saw it with Thunderous with Swagger and Thunder... It's isn't sweep my team I just got unlucky a few times and managed to take it out. Then I started using Shaymin-S to get a better feel on it tbh I'd used it to stop TR setter of Tailwind or just risk the tie with other Shaymin-S and kill them. Also agree with Twix post esspically on the line where esspically on the second half. Still not to sure about it yet maybe I need to play around with it a bit more I'm leaning towards ban for now.
 
So after achieving req's I thought would post my thoughts. They are:

1. Skymin making life hard on trick room is fine and not at all a reason for ban. We dont ban Charizard because sun is so much better than rain and politeod sucks. One archetype being better than another is fine. We dont owe it to trick room to make it more viable.

2. Between sun, hail, rain, talonflame, gengar, thundy, lando, deoxys a and aerodactyl among others, there are a lot of strong and viable options that beat skymin as well as make other contributions. You in no way need to dedicate a team slot solely to beating skymin because all of these options plus many more than i listed will put in work for your team in other ways, as well as beating skymin. If skymin being in the metagame is unkind to your team then adapt to the metagame, dont expect it to adapt to you.

3. The nature of doubles is that things die quickly. How many viable options can switch in on a charizard overheat and a sylveon hyper voice? How many options can switch in on a lando earthquake and an abomasnow blizzard? Its not hard to find things with offensive synergy that can nuke a large portion of the metagame. If you have allowed your opponent to put themselves in a superior position, then odds are they are going to take advantage of that, and the combination of keldeo and skymin allowing them to do that is an utterly silly reason for banning. Teams need to be able to beat venusaur and charizard. Teams need to be able to beat kangaskhan and who ever she is partnered up with. Teams also need to be able to beat skymin and keldeo.

Basically skymin is a good, strong option for many teams. It also has a great partner in keldeo. However, it is nowhere near the level of silliness that jirachi and mence were. There are a multitude of options that can get around it. No ban.
 
Ok so this is going to be my second post about how i feel about skymin up to this point.

First off im going to try and gather what is the main consensus here. I think a decent majority from what i can see have come to the conclusion that it is not over centralizing ive seen many checks listed some that are viable and some that really arent very viable other then the fact of beating skymin. Also i think it has been brought up that most teams that people build (as long as they are actually using viable mons for a team) will have at least one skymin check. Secondly is skymin in terms of itself determined to be a broken mon, i feel like most people would answer no to this question. However their decisions vary when it comes to the luck based element of serene grace, yes i will admit this can sometimes be annoying but i don't find it to be more annoying or less annoying then getting flinched by any other move. Now i would like to address one of the main reasons people are calling for a ban on skymin. The Skymin + Keldeo duo, they are claiming keldeo can just use quick guard to stop prio (which has been determined to be a skymin counter/check) but are we not understanding the fact that people facing this duo also have 2 mons on there side of the field? If your opponents keldeo is sitting there spamming quick guard and you continuously decide to aim priority at the skymin lets be honest, you pretty much deserve to lose the game. If keldeo is using quick guard skymin only has the potential to flinch one mon (it may not even flinch) take this opportunity to take out the keldeo, not only will your opponent be down a mon you will now have a much easier time dealing with the skymin. Also i agree with many of the points being made by Bughouse other than sheer luck im not seeing many other reasons for a ban. (if you are using skymin and banking on luck to win games then that kinda makes you a bad player, its like fishing for a scald burn. You will feel entitled to the flinch and when you dont get it complain) Anyway these are just my thoughts up to this point.

As of now still leaning No Ban
 

DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just want to preface this by saying I don't know 100% how I feel about Shaymin-S just yet. Originally I wanted Skymin gone because, to be honest, it'll make it a lot easier to play Doubles since I don't have to worry about Seed Flare drops and flinches anymore. Then after reading through the posts here, I turned to anti-ban. but now that I've been thinking about it a lot more, I think Skymin should be banned. I definitely agree with thetalkingtree's post that luck factor should be an argument because Skymin's hax success rate is MUCH higher than that of, for example, Swagger or Rock Slide, though I do agree that it shouldn't be the main argument for its banning. RNG is suppose to be the wild card in this game, but with Skymin it is the trump card. But the thing about Skymin is that, when it comes in (well as long as it is brought in smartly), you know something is going to die because there isn't anything that can reliably switch into it due to its insane 68% chance to OHKO pretty much anything with a double target. And yes, your opponent's Pokemon has a teammate as well but chances are if you're bringing Skymin in, the opponent's other Pokemon won't be able to do much to Skymin outside of like breaking its Sash. While Skymin can't single-handedly sweep teams, it can, however, weaken the opponent's team to the point where the other 4 can win much easier.

Everything else has pretty much been said so no need to rehash everything. I'm still unsure of what to do about Skymin but I'm more leaning towards ban.
 
I've been battling for a bit on the reqs ladder. Before I started laddering, I thought that Skymin was just an annoying quick mon who has Air Slash hax and hella strong Seed Flare to annoy ppl. Although I haven't seen much Skymin on the ladder, I've used Skymin for a bit to understand how frail it really is. It gets knocked out to a plethora of mons. But I think these plethora of mons are put onto teams to counter Skymin. However, if one is able to pair Skymin up with another mon to make a duo it is pretty unstoppable which is the reason that I want to ban it.
>.> I'm gunna finish getting reqs first.
 

TSR

⎛ ´●  ω ●` ⎞
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Okay, I'm kinda new here, but i did get the reqs in the suspect ladder. So I'll toss in my two cents here and say Skymin does not deserve a ban.

I find Skymin to be more of a follow-up/combo pokemon. With 127 speed it gets a Seed Flare off, halves SpDef of it's target, and lets it's teammate cause heavy damage with it's follow up Ice Beam or whatever. While it usually does have good tools to use against Trick Room, it pretty much is destroyed once TR is up. The only way Skymin really struggles is when it doesn't move first. With TR being a completely viable strategy (the one i laddered with) and absolutely needing speed control on any decent team, it struggles. It sits at a speed tier below common scarf mons like Lando and Mamoswine, and is frail and weak to common priority and spread moves. Brave Bird from TFlame and Ice Shard do massive damage, it doubles Bisharp's attack with a SpDef drop, and Fake Out breaks Sash, while being weak to Heat Wave and Rock Slide, and the occasional Blizzard. I believe there are plenty of scarf users and priority that completely maul Shaymin. I know I'm only coming from the ladder and saying Shaymin hasn't given me much trouble, but with TR, Tailwind, Icy Wind, Choice Scarf, and there's plenty of ways to make sure Shaymin doesn't go first. The flinches and Spdef drops may be really difficult to deal with in a standard situation, yes, but Shaymin was and is one of the prime reasons speed control is necessary on any given team. It's true that we can use Shaymin to weaken targets for the team but I saw a Fake Tears/Tailwind Whimsicott + Mega Gardevoir do the same thing and blow my team away. Like the suspect ladder says, Skymin's is not invincible. Unlike the single battle suspect ladder, the suspect isn't removed to see if the metagame is healthier without it. But I say Shaymin's main strength is a little like a fighting game, "combo potential" if you will. Weakening the target for another attack is this combo. Basically, if you can stop the first hit, the combo never happen, and with all the ways Doubles has to keep Shaymin from outspeeding your entire team, it's not an impossible task to give Shaymin a heavy hit. With the common priority, Scarves, and spread moves in any doubles metagame, Skymin has an awful defensive typing for this format. There's options to beat it and keep it from breaking holes in your team. Yes, playing it carefully can open up holes in your opponents team, but that can be said about really any relevant pokemon. It's speed is why it's so good, so if you can mitigate that then it's not really as overwhelming with SpDef drops and flinches.

And as a claim that Skymin imbalances the game toward offense, I believe I can say that any Doubles format has always been geared toward promoting offense. The sheer utility that comes with moves like Taunt and tailwind throughout Doubles, the ability to double target a single pokemon, and making key OHKOs are reasons why stall and other slow, bulky playstyles are not as viable in a doubles format. Skymin is a great tool for offensive teams, but it hardly makes the metagame any more inclined towards offense more than it already was.

Again, I'm new, sorry for my probably noob-ish opinion and/or the noob-ish way I worded it. I always know how to play, but not how to talk about it :]
 
After getting reqs I think skymin needs to go. Now, it is fast, strong and has a great movepool, but what really makes it broken is, as people on the thread have said before, the luck factor generated by Seed Flare and Air Slash. A powerful, quick Air Slash with Serene Grace can shift up the winners of so many games that it just makes it too annoying. This situation reminds me a lot about Mega Pidgeot in UU, because it used to have the potential to do almost the same thing; quick, powerful hurricane confusions tearing up teams apart.
While it does have its checks and can be played around, the luck factor abused with great spread and moves just seems unhealthy to me, so i'm voting ban
 

Snou

the grand master of all the things bad!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past Smogon Snake Draft Champion
I've been really undecided during the whole laddering process for this suspect, and I'm still quite confused for what concerns this ban.
On one hand we got a pokemon with pretty high statistics, with a speed that threatens a good portion of the tier, with access to an ability which makes it particulary luck worthy, which increases in a ridiculous way the chances to win from players who dont even know how to play who hopes to win by only clicking Air Slash or dropping with Seed Flare.
On another hand in the whole suspect I've seen too few Shaymin-S and in these few times I met it, the revengekilling was easy and quite immediate.
In synthesis however I'd say that it's the moment for shaymin to leave this tier, in order to make it more viable and skill based, instead of luck based, as if all those rock slide flinches weren't enough to keep the luck rate high in the tier.
Then BAN
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top