np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

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I dont think Skymin is really broken if you look at it by itself. However, when paired with pretty much any other offensive mon (oftentimes keldeo) Serene Grace Air Slash pushes it over the edge. Consider for example, a field of Keldeo + Skymin on one side, and Latios + Entei on the other. Theoretically, the player with Latios and Entei should have the advantage, as Skymin can't outright KO either mon, and is KO'd in return (Earth Power doesn't KO Entei) Latios can KO Keldeo before it has a chance to Hydro Pump the Entei, which means Entei is free to Sacred Fire the Skymin, having a fifty percent chance to KO it through sash due to the burn chance. However, the Skymin user could instead Air Slash the Latios, banking on the flinch chance. If the Latios flinches, the Skymin user is free to KO the Entei, and keeps both of his mons at full health. This access to essentially unlimited fake out makes Skymin broken when paired with almost any mon. Obviously, Protect makes this way more convoluted, but for the sake of example, I've ignored it. (altho protect entei + tailwind latios is the play here)

I know that some of you will read this and be like, "but cyber, the flinch isn't guaranteed!" The thing with that is, the flinch chance is in Skymin's favor, so often the player behind the Skymin will opt to risk not getting the flinch, as air slashing random shit is often the best play. This leads to situations where luck can determine the outcome of a match, which kinda goes against the idea of a competitive game.

Unless I see some really strong anti-ban arguments, I'm gonna be voting Ban
 
I know that some of you will read this and be like, "but cyber, the flinch isn't guaranteed!" The thing with that is, the flinch chance is in Skymin's favor, so often the player behind the Skymin will opt to risk not getting the flinch, as air slashing random shit is often the best play. This leads to situations where luck can determine the outcome of a match, which kinda goes against the idea of a competitive game.

Unless I see some really strong anti-ban arguments, I'm gonna be voting Ban
That's the exact problem that makes shaymin unliked. opponents opt 4 the flinch chance rather than a decent play and well since shaymin is mostly in ho there are few switches to consider. they just prefer the flinch chance, and it sucks
 

Elise

gamer girl
is a Tiering Contributor
That's the exact problem that makes shaymin unliked. opponents opt 4 the flinch chance rather than a decent play and well since shaymin is mostly in ho there are few switches to consider. they just prefer the flinch chance, and it sucks
people who prefer the flinch chance are bad considering there is more often than not a situation where there's a better play
 
people who prefer the flinch chance are bad considering there is more often than not a situation where there's a better play
The thing is, Usually and theoretically there should be, but in hyperoffense switching is hard, and there isnt generally something who appreciates the hit. Even in cyber's example, a switch would cost heavy the skymin user.
 
ok i wasn't gonna respond to this yet but my spidey sense was tingling
I do not feel like Skymin deserves a ban. The stat drops it provides are just a part of the game, and something you can play around with the right plays. Yes, it is very hard to switch into Seed Flare, but there are other attacks, like Sacred Fire or even Scald, that are fairly difficult to switch into if you don't have the right switch ins. Skymin can't deal with any form of speed control (other than cotton spore lol) once it is set up, and because it is frail, it get's 2hko'd by most neutral attacks. Finally, because it doesn't have any multi-target moves, a good prediction can easily clear it.
Don't hurt me if you disagree >///< but tl;dr there are plenty of ways to deal with skymin, you just have to play around it differently than other mons. The game stays competitive, as one player tries to stop the skymin while the other player tries to abuse skymin's abilities while defending it, just like every game of Pokemon.
The stat drops that it provides are, indeed part of the game, but it is an uncompetitive one at that. That's like saying that sleep + gravity shouldn't be banned, because it's part of the game. It's absolutely nonsensical to be comparing skymin's Seed Flare to something like Scald and Sacred Fire. For one, Scald has a 30% chance to burn, whereas Seed Flare has an 68% chance. Surely, these are vastly different percentages. However, what differentiates these two moves further is the fact that nothing can switch in to Seed Flare unscathed and Scald can just be played around by switching in a special attacker. Seed Flare's spdef drop opens the door for its teammate to ohko the damaged opponent when it shouldn't have been able to. Imagine a Skymin and a Keldeo double targeting Cresselia. Scald looks like an under-powered move in comparison to what Seed Flare from Skymin can do, especially when you consider the vastly offensive nature of the Doubles OU metagame. As for Sacred Fire, you're right. You've got me completely stumped. Just like Seed Flare, it has an extensive list of viable users, ranging from Entei, to Smeargle, to...uh... anyway, Seed Flare isn't even the primary reason why Skymin is being suspected! Also, you say how Skymin can't deal with any sort of speed control. It's been said time after time that Skymin is a check to Trick Room due to its ability to flinch the setter or double target it with a Seed Flare drop. As for Tailwind, the only setter that can reliably get up twind in Skymin's face, without fear of flinching or being double targeted, is Talonflame. Pretty much the only form of speed control that can 100% reliably check Skymin is some Icy Wind users and Thunder Wave, but mostly Thunder Wave. Therefore, Skymin encourages the use of Thunder Wave, which makes the game even more uncompetitive than if it was just Skymin alone (lets be real here though nobody likes paralysis, but i digress).
From my experience with Shaymin-Sky, I do not feel that it is broken. I do not even find myself using it that much on the suspect ladder. From the games that I have played with it, many of my losses have come from the times that I have missed Seed Flare or Air Slash. Despite the Special Defense drops from Seed Flare and the flinches from Air Slash, Shaymin-Sky is still beatable. Shaymin-Sky suffers from any form of speed control and is fragile. Priority such as Talonflame Brave Bird kills Shaymin-Sky; it cannot do its job if it is not moving first.
You say that your losses have come from the times that you have not gotten the secondary effects of Air Slash or Seed Flare. This is purely another reason why it's uncompetitive. The tide of the game is instantly turned in most situations if a flinch is gotten or not, and when it comes to Skymin's Air Slash, there is a decent chance of either one occurring. This is basing the win entirely on luck and is purely why this Pokemon is being suspected in the first place. It's also said here that Skymin cannot do its job if it's not moving first, which is true. However, a good portion of the time, it will be moving first due to its insane base 127 speed, which outspeeds almost every other "fast" threat. However, priority does screw it over, and that's why Quick Guard Keldeo is paired with it 99% of the time. Someone will probably respond to this post saying something along the lines of "but you cant ban a pokemon because of another one!!!!" Yes we can, and we have done so in the past with Mega Salamence. A good reason for its banning was its pairing with Jirachi.

for the reasons above, i'm going to be voting to ban skymin.
 
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reminder to everyone that Shaymin-s (and Kyu-b more or less) are the reason for hyper offensive dominating the meta atm. IF Skymin is banned Defensive pokemon will get a boost in the meta which I feel is pretty good for meta balance. Although it's also important to keep in mind that Kyu-b is still used on HO and is another pokemon likely worthy of a suspect. nerfing HO though could be a good step for us
 
All right a guest post inbound, prepare your Ctrl and W buttons !_!
The question, then, is the effect significant enough to have a negative impact on the meta? (you'd also have to define a favorable meta)
I think a favorable meta game would be without a Pokémon practically having a reasonably strong STAB attack that is unresisted by quite a few Pokémon in the meta game that has higher odds of the target not moving than Confuse Ray as well as a damaging Fake Tears.

A favorable meta game would be one that isn't too centralized around less than 4 Pokemon, and while it may be hard to tell that it is centralizing, how many times do you consider beating an offensive core such as Skymin+Keldeo (which every hyper offense team runs for obvious reasons; Keldeo gets strengthened Hydro Pumps against Skymin and Skymin gets supportive flinches for the team) when you teambuild? I mean looking at the sample teams (minus Stratos' fullroom, where Skymin is literally just a win button against), any team that is HO has its checks for the amazing offensive cores they use.
using this for reference
  • Finally's HO team demolishes Trick Room easily, and a cool idea of Thundurus on semiroom wouldn't be too great because Rhyperior is just there to absorb all of the Thunder Waves while Skymin+special attacker takes out things on Trick Room with ease. A balance team? Balance doesn't run a ton of speedy mons like speed demon: Skymin, however Scarf Lando-t is seen on balance to give Skymin a fair amount of issues despite losing to Keldeo easily (unless you get flinched @_@). Also does great against other Keldeo/Skymin/Charizard because of Scarf Kyurem-B
  • Memoric's Tailwind balance literally has only Lando-t for Skymin as an immediate check, but after it sets up Tailwind Kangaskhan does get a good solid KO on Skymin and Keldeo while they Protect stall, as well as Heatran hitting at least Skymin but not Keldeo.
  • Stratos' defensive TR team has much difficulty with it, because rather than having Thundurus as another method of speed control out of Trick Room, he only has Lando-t to beat Skymin before any favorable conditions such as Trick Room are set up. Once Trick Room is set up however, both Heatran and Cresselia work as complete counters to Skymin+Keldeo, assuming it goes up.
  • Stratos' full room team lmao @ beating Skymin+Keldeo.
  • Arctic's bog standard is actually great against Skymin+Keldeo. Thundy+Lando-t is a complete counter to them, and Amoonguss redirects Keldeo and resists both STABs (though Skymin ignores Rage Powder anyway).
I think the fact that you have to add like 1 Skymin check per team and still have issues with it is very centralizing, based on those sample teams listed above.

The only complete counter to Skymin+partner is Thundurus/Talonflame, mainly because of who that partner is most likely to be (though they do both get blocked by Quick Guard on Keldeo). A few good checks to Skymin+partner however are Mega Kangaskhan+Tailwind, Mega Diancie+Tailwind, and max speed Mega Metagross (252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, always fun to take these), all of which, despite being good, all have their flaws. Kangaskhan needs Tailwind to be up in order to not lose, Mega Diancie falls to a Seed Flare if Tailwind isn't up, and Jolly Metagross - wait that's pretty solid :^). Also keep in mind that Tailwind is 3 turns of doubled speed overall, the first turn the speeds aren't doubled, so it's not that hard to stall out assuming your Doubles OU team carries the move Protect.

One final note: [while this isn't at all factually oriented, I'd still like for you to answer these questions to yourself]
  • Do you ever just accidentally realize you've added checks to things you may have forgotten in a team?
  • Does this ever happen with Skymin+Keldeo?
  • If not, how often do you consider Skymin+partner while teambuilding?
  • How many immediate checks does a core like, say, Hydreigon+Aegislash have?
  • How many complete counters does the core you used for the previous question have?
  • How many immediate checks and complete counters does a core such as Skymin+Keldeo have?
  • Is Skymin centralizing?
 

Elise

gamer girl
is a Tiering Contributor
All right a guest post inbound, prepare your Ctrl and W buttons !_!
-snip-
One final note: [while this isn't at all factually oriented, I'd still like for you to answer these questions to yourself]
  • Do you ever just accidentally realize you've added checks to things you may have forgotten in a team?
  • Does this ever happen with Skymin+Keldeo?
what do these sentences even mean??
 
Something to keep in mind is our reasoning as to why we're banning skymin, if we do. Is it for being uncompetitive, centralizing, broken, or a mixture of both? As of now I'm undecided, leaning towards no ban, but someone saying "lol uncompetitive" is an inevitability, so I think I'll just raise a bunch of questions on criteria for banning.

If we're banning skymin for air slash being uncompetitive, what differentiates it from other haxy things, like rock slide, scald, and twave? If serene grace flinches are inherently uncompetitive, do we ban rachi and kiss, too, or is the combination of power and speed what makes it so? Nobody likes getting flinched in an important match, but we've dealt with it for a while now, and hax gets exaggerated when it happens to you. For it to be uncompetitive, you'd have to put up evidence that it allows players of lesser or equal "skill" to beat others through rng at a rate intolerable enough to discourage competition.

On overcentralization, we know skymin does quite well against balance. It has checks like thundy, tflame, and speed control, so one might say it forces you to run some of them, or it discourages less offensive playstyles. The question, then, is the effect significant enough to have a negative impact on the meta? (you'd also have to define a favorable meta)

The brokenness part is where seed flare comes in. Skymin's fast, hard hitting, has great offensive typing, and absolutely nothing wants to switch in on seed flare. Air slash happens at a significant enough rate to think of it as 60acc fake out with 95 acc damage, which is a big plus you can't just ignore. Of course, skymin gets twaved, rock slided, burded, screwed by speed control, or just can't ko something that's not -2. Just because it has counters doesn't mean it isn't broken, of course, but you do have to give reasons why its power outweighs its weaknesses.
look at this guy stealing my post. i clearly came into the chat and ranted about this the other day which should obviously be taken as an implication that i was gonna be the one that got to post this shit. what a post-stealer. my lard some people in this community.............,,,,,,,,!!!!!

i don't really care honestly i can make new thoughts probably.

I don't know what i'm voting yet, but if there are so many people that want to ban shaymin sky for such bad reasons, i might just vote unban to counteract them, so make sure your opinions are well-informed and relevant to the suspect test. if we didnt ban swagger for dice rolls then i'm certainly not voting to ban skymin because of some fast flinches. like mother fucker every prankster user gets swagger and ur talkin to me about mere 127 base speed??? ridiculous.

There seems to be an attitude going around that shaymin-sky (and other flinchers) are the reason that trick room, and generally bulky teams are bad. people try to have bulky mons that can switch in on and take out every single pokemon 100% of the time, and i assure you that there are lots of pokemon that can do this to skymin. They are not tier 1.5 pokemon, but people would rather ban skymin than use a mon that is in general weaker than what they are currently using to cover their uses. People should recognize that wallbreakers are every bit as necessary to the metagame as support mons or any other kind of pokemon, and if a pokemon happens to beat you all the time, you should try using it because that is how you will learn to beat it, because i really don't think shaymin is as good as you guys are hyping it up to be.

Also trick room is bad because its just generally bad, not because shaymin sky prevents it from going up. there are like 500 better and more reliable ways to prevent trick room from going up than serene grace flinches, and if someone leads skymin against trick room with intent to flinch, he probably (definitely) has a shit matchup because no good player should be relying on a ~57% chance at turn one.

Now remember when i said i didn't know what i was voting yet? yes this is still true despite my arguments of keeping it unbanned. I agree that it speeds up the metagame to an extent, and i'm not sure that is a positive. However I am seeing far too many people saying that it is without a doubt broken when a month ago, lots of people weren't even using it. I feel like anyone that's that sure of its brokenness is just bandwagoning, and i'm really not seeing enough people admit that it's a grey area. I'm also a little disappointed that we are suspecting it so soon after its rise in usage because if it were given a bit more time, the meta would probably just naturally adjust to it.

tagging Yellow Paint because i'm still mad at him.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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I've yet to play or see a game where Skymin singlehandedly caused a win against an even passably prepared opponent.

The primary countermeasure is just to have something, anything, that can hit Skymin first. This includes Scarfers, faster Pokemon like Mega Gengar or Aerodactyl, priority (Mega Kanga and Talonflame in particular, but sure throw in the less common Abomasnow Ice Shard too), and/or weather sweepers. When I see a team that lacks any of the above lose to Skymin, I do not feel bad.

Think about what I just said... Rain, Sun, and Hail all have easy built-in countermeasures already. Sand breaks Skymin's sash, making it easy to take down even if the Sand team lacks Excadrill or Talonflame. Mega Gengar teams do great. There really are only two teambuilds that are getting notably worse matchups against Skymin.

Having a Pokemon capable of outrunning a fast, threatening mon is not something that I would consider detrimental to the metagame or overly centralizing. If it makes a slow Tailwind-focused team (i.e. using like Togekiss, Zapdos, or Suicune, rather than Talonflame) or a Trick Room team bad, that's fine by me. It's not like Skymin is even the single thing holding either of these playstyles back nor do the matchups become unwinnable because Skymin is there.

I was opposed to Skymin even being tested and I don't think my future vote not to ban will surprise anyone.
 

deoxys speed

formerly xxPikachuIzUBERZlmaoxx
I hate Skymin with a passion. I think it’s as uncompetitive as Double Team or Swagger. It’s like having a Togekiss in Tailwind 100% of the time which is stupid as hell. One of the problems I have with Skymin is that it actually has 0 safe switch ins when it's paired with Keldeo(which it is almost all of the time). Things like Rotom-H, Zapdos, and Landorus-T can't switch into it in fear of getting the -2 drop and getting flinched which will happen more often than not. Shaymin's most common partner Keldeo also deters many of its checks/counters from switching in.

You really have to take it into account when you're teambuilding, like an insane amount. You just can't use 1 of Thundurus, Talonflame, or a Scarf Landorus because you'll be overwhelmed/they'll get weakened easily. To make my teams not Skymin weak I usually use 2-3 reliable checks paired with a couple priority mons or a Jirachi or another redirector(but Jirachi is the best). I think it really limits the mons you can use and the type of builds you can use. I also hate how people just slap Lando-T, Thundurus, and Talonflame(I keep saying these bc they are the most common :s) onto their teams not because they fit the vibe of the team or are the most helpful overall but because they are weak to Skymin.

The biggest problem I have with Skymin however is it's affect on the lategame. The two scariest things I can think of facing at the end of the game are a +2 Kangaskhan and a Shaymin-Sky with it's sash intact. Being able to flinch things reliably thus creating free turns is huge. There is no feeling like getting flinched out of a game.

Even with all the hate I have for Skymin, I’m not 100% for a ban there is definitely counter-play for it, Sand, Stealth Rocks, Rain, Icy Wind, priority, Trick Room, yellow magic among other things. I also think it keeps things like Rotom-Wash, Amoongus, M-Diancie, Keldeo from being too good. So I guess I have to figure out what I'm going to vote, looking forward to reading some more arguments. :p
 

TheFourthChaser

#TimeForChange
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Hey guys, I logged in for the first time in months to post here. You should all be honored.

Wanna start this off by saying that I was pushing for this suspect test a year ago. Skymin is inherently uncompetitive, regardless of metagame. It might be "frail" but to put it simply, Skymin is hella easy to support offensively. You're still free to have a Mega, it loves redirection support (Skymin+Jirachi/Volcarona is sick), and its in a damn good speed tier. The only thing that REALLY switches in safely and can pressure Skymin is Thundurus thanks to Prankster Twave, Talonflame is too frail and if Skymin is the ever-common Sash set than Talon still loses anyway. 60% flinches, 80% SpD drops, not much more needs to be said this shits just ridiculous.

Ok so let's get some real discussion going
The reason skymin isn't seen as much as it SHOULD be on ladder is twofold. For the first part, it only fits on ho teams (someone correct terminology if you want idgaf). Secondly, skymin is powerful but inconsistent. What this means is that a lot of those high-elo laddering players will never touch skymin because, even though you SHOULD have won at least 1 of 3 flinches, if you don't you're fucked and you lose 50 points while each victory gets you 5. Maintaining high elo is as much about good play as it is about bringing consistent strategies, therefore I expect that ladder stats will reflect a much lower usage than say, seasonal stats.
Skymin is uncompetitive because it creates these haxy scenarios in the first place. You're likely to flinch but you can also miss and then the opponent MIGHT hit you, it takes a lot of tactics off the field imo. I also think it's a buncha bs that you can't top the ladder with Skymin, I don't wanna "fling shit" but Skymin is easily an S rank mon (no, I didn't check the list but if it isn't S rank its a bad list) and I'm 100% sure a lot worse than Skymin has topped that ladder.
 

Ragnarock

Banned deucer.
Shaymin-Sky (skymin) is probably one of the best support mons I've seen for my first time playing Doubles. This tier relies heavily on offense where Skymin feels at home and has the ability to out speed around 90% of the metagame with the serene grace ability to increase it's flinch chances with Air Slash and SP Def Drops w/ Seed Flare assuming they hit its target. Standard Skymin, also provides Tailwind since people usually switch when they see skymin, even though most have a hard time coming in risking getting sp def dropped. And holding a focus sash means that almost always able to set it. Things like Mega Kanga, Lando-i and Lando-t, Aegislash, Keldeo, the list continues appreciates the tailwind support. Skymin is also a decent wall-breaker thanks to the Seed Flare drops, also can be even more helpful for a team w/ coverage like Life Orb Earth Power for Heatrans or HP Rock for a nice surprise to Talon providing more team support

I wouldn't call Skymin broken. It's frail and can't 2hko anything w/o it getting drops or flinches. I think it's just its ability to hax it's way through the tier with good chances in its favor BECAUSE of its speed and ability is uncompetitive. You still have things like Togekiss and Jirachi that do the same shit as an Air Slash from skymin, but again, it's the speed differences that causes a separation, obviously. You won't be seeing these Toge or Rachi flinching a Darkrai anytime soon barring scarf users. The tier can also be slow at times with Aegislash, Amoongus, Cress, Azu, and so forth, all enjoy the use of Trick Room, which is viable in a sense, or seems like it. I'm seeing a few people calling it bad for some reason or stating that Skymin can just flinch it's way through a TR user, making TR "bad" which I find ridiculous. If you dont get the Air Slash Flinch, what is your 127 Based Speed mon doing to TR next turn? If your only chance of facing TR is being in this scenario and hoping u hit and also flinch a TR user on the first turn, that gives skymin more of a reason to be placed in the noncompetitive category, or you're just using a bad skymin team and you should adjust. Leaning towards Ban
 
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Shaymin-Sky (skymin) is probably one of the best support mons I've seen for my first time playing Doubles. This tier relies heavily on offense where Skymin feels at home and has the ability to out speed around 90% of the metagame with the serene grace ability to increase it's flinch chances with Air Slash and SP Def Drops w/ Seed Flare assuming they hit its target. Standard Skymin, also provides Tailwind since people usually switch when they see skymin, even though most have a hard time coming in risking getting sp def dropped. And holding a focus sash means that almost always able to set it. Things like Mega Kanga, Lando-i and Lando-t, Thundy, Keldeo, the list continues appreciates the tailwind support. Skymin is also a decent wall-break thanks to the Seed Flare drops, also can be even more helpful for a team w/ coverage like Life Orb Earth Power for Heatrans or HP Rock for a nice surprise to Talon providing more team support

I wouldn't call Skymin broken. It's frail and can't 2hko anything w/o it getting drops or flinches. I think it's just its ability to hax it's way through the tier with good chances in its favor BECAUSE of its speed and ability is uncompetitive. You still have things like Togekiss and Jirachi that do the same shit as an Air Slash from skymin, but again, it's the speed differences that causes a separation, obviously. You won't be seeing these Toge or Rachi flinching a Darkrai anytime sooner barring scarf users. The tier can also be slow at times with Aegislash, Amoongus, Cress, Azu, and so forth, all enjoy the use of Trick Room, which is viable in a sense, or seems like it. I'm seeing a few people calling it bad for some reason or stating that Skymin can just flinch it's way through a TR user, making TR "bad" which I find ridiculous. If you dont get the Air Slash Flinch, what is your 127 Based Speed mon doing to TR next turn? If your only chance of facing TR is being in this scenario and hoping u hit and also flinch a TR user on the first turn, that gives skymin more of a reason to be placed in the noncompetitive category, or you're just using a bad skymin team and you should adjust. Leaning towards Ban
I totally agree with your view i personally use TR and shaymin is a pain, especially when paired with another special attacker like Gardevoir mega or Charizard-Mega-Y.. It can almost kill everything if it gets that SpD drop.
 

Level 56

Faded memories
is a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis the 6th Grand Slam Winner
Here's my initial thoughts on Shaymin-Sky:

492-sky.gif
From what I've seen, Shaymin-Sky is unhealthy for the current metagame. It is blessed with nice power + great speed, allowing it to outspeed almost everything in the tier (except scarfers). The real problem why Shaymin-Sky is threatening in the current metagame is due to it's ability + Air Slash. Thanks to Serene Grace, Air Slash is even more troublesome, since there is a 60% percent chance to flinch. Seed Flare also becomes more problematic, since it has a high chance to lower the target's Sp defense. Along with that, it has access to Earth Power, by which it can take care of steel types such as Heatran. Shaymin-Sky does great vs offensive teams and fairly good vs balance teams. Its great to see how well Shaymin-Sky pairs with offensive mons such as Keldeo. One of the best combination I have seen in doubles, is the combination of Shaymin-Sky and Keldeo. This replay gives the perfect example of what this combination can do.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-245261199

Although, Shaymin-Sky does have some weaknesses. Scarfers are easily able to deal with Shaymin-Sky and Trick Room teams are really annoying for Shaymin-Sky. Priority moves/Prankster T-Wave can also shut down Shaymin-Sky. Though, Keldeo's Quick Guard is a good way to protect Shaymin-Sky from Priority moves.

Overall, there are few teams that can handle Shaymin-Sky, thanks to it's offensive capabilities and high flinching chance of Air Slash. If we want this metagame to get better, then Shaymin-Sky needs to get banned.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
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I wholeheartedly agree with Bughouse. I've never once thought of Skymin as a primary building concern while constructing a team and when speaking with other players that doesn't seem like that's a reality so I think that any notion of its being overcentralizing is just wrong. What I think is actually happening is that players who build in team styles that are already either unviable or not very viable (namely bulky offense/tailwind-centric teams) are unwilling to build teams that are actually viable in today's metagame and are thus getting reamed by Skymin consistently since it punishes teams that can't touch it and give it a lot of breathing room. These same people then insist on Skymin's brokeness when what is actually happening is a natural enough result of being unwilling to change with the metagame.

People bringing up arguments such as Skymin shutting down Trick Room teams or stuff like that are spouting noise imo since one, full trick room has never been a particularly viable team strategy or made up a decent portion of competitively successful teams at any point in the tier's history, two, (as was said above) teams that can only build momentum after a turn or two of setup are struggling in today's metagame for a host of non Skymin related reasons, and three, the matchups that Skymin allows teams to win that they supposedly shouldn't be able to (what does this even mean anyways? where is the law that says what team types ought to beat other teams? there isn't a way that the game is /supposed/ to play, only how it does play) are all in fact matchups that can be won by a competent player with a solid team. Stratos posted a good example of how to beat TR while playing full HO (without using Skymin to flinch stuff) a few days ago in the Doubles chat for instance, which while not proving it does support my theory that there are just inherent flaws in these sorts of teams that popular Pokemon and strategies have no problem taking advantage of.

So yeah please don't be the group that bans Skymin.
 
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what do these sentences even mean??
Whenever you build a team, is there ever a single instance where you forget to beat something that is relatively common? Skymin is probably never ignored by an experienced player of the Doubles OU meta game. In order for a team to be good, it has to be able to beat Skymin easily, it can't have trouble with it at all. Same with cube, but that's for a future suspect.
 

Caliber

Banned deucer.
After laddering about 45 games and almost close to reqs (2400 so far :[) I've come to a decision with Shaymin-Sky.
It's ridiculous when it spams Air Slash at incredible speed of 127, and flinches more often than less. Seed Flare also almost always harshly reduces Special Defense so Shaymin-Sky is a great wallbreaker. I personally didn't have a problem against it because I'm using a semi-Trick Room team, but I see non-weather/TR variant teams will have problems facing this Pokemon. However, with Rock Slide Landorus-T and Heatran's Heat Wave (Needs Togekiss / Amoonguss as partner for Follow Me / Ragepowder respectively), it can be taken down. Also, the opponent has to attack 1/2 Pokemon, and therefore, you can predict which one he'll attack and attack Shaymin with the other one. However, if the opponent reads your predictions, it'll come crashing down on you. I'm just getting off-track and explaining how to beat Shaymin now lol. Anyways, I think this metagame will definitely be healthier without it, since skill>hax. So I'll definitely be voting ban.

Nobody likes that haxing monster anyways ~_~
 

Mizuhime

Lets keep our secrets dirty
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Ablast likes shit music.

That aside, i'll start talking about the question at hand, Skymin. At the start, and even much before I was always against testing Skymin. I fell into the category of people who didn't see it as a direct threat due to it's frailness. Although, after some though I realize why my vision of Skymin fell into the "not a problem" category. If anyone who's ever seen me plays know's one thing about me, I like weather. Simple as that, generally most of my more successful teams have been based around a weather with Pokemon to abuse it, which includes Speed Boosting abilities. Meaning, I was always prepared for Skymin without actually realizing it. More recently, i've been trying to tamper with things that aren't bog ass "standard" weather that I always use, and i've come to find even when trying to prepare for Skymin, it's not a simple task. Bulky Offence finds it's self struggling due to the luck factor Skymin brings, as does Trick Room/Semi Trick Room. Air Slash, although not a terrible strong move is the main reason (in tandem with it's ability Serene Grace) is what creates the problem. Early in the thread I saw mention of Togekiss. Admittedly, didn't really read the post, but as i'm sure the person mentioned the 2 Pokemon are not comparable in the slightest. You might as well compare apples to oranges. Togekiss needs to rely on Tailwind to outrun anything, and needs to take 1, maybe 2 hits before Tailwind even goes up, resulting in a Pokemon that's not likely to put a dent in your plans just by using Air Slash. Skymin doesn't need any help in the Speed Department, has no reliable switches thanks to Seed Flare and is a Pokemon, that even when prepared for, can still win. Skymin also has coverage that allows it to beat potentially checks such as Heatran.

I'll sum up my thoughts on the matter in the simplest way I believe I can, people use Skymin for the hax it creates. Other than it's offensive typing, and speed it has no redeeming qualities. Serene Grace is the entire reason that Skymin gets use as much as it does, and it creates games where hax determines the outcome. I truly never did see Skymin as being a "broken" Pokemon, and I still don't think it's nearly as broken as Mega Salamence or something like Kyogre. But, I do believe that Skymin creates an unhealthy problem in the meta.
 

Elise

gamer girl
is a Tiering Contributor
Whenever you build a team, is there ever a single instance where you forget to beat something that is relatively common? Skymin is probably never ignored by an experienced player of the Doubles OU meta game. In order for a team to be good, it has to be able to beat Skymin easily, it can't have trouble with it at all. Same with cube, but that's for a future suspect.
i make sure that I beat kangaskhan, landorus-t, cresselia, mega-charizard-y, keldeo and diancie on every team, does that mean they're broken and unhealthy in the metagame? because I don't think an experienced player forgets those Pokémon either? you could make this point for every single tier 1 pokemon

edit:
Ablast likes shit music.

-snip-

I'll sum up my thoughts on the matter in the simplest way I believe I can, people use Skymin for the hax it creates. Other than it's offensive typing, and speed it has no redeeming qualities. Serene Grace is the entire reason that Skymin gets use as much as it does, and it creates games where hax determines the outcome. I truly never did see Skymin as being a "broken" Pokemon, and I still don't think it's nearly as broken as Mega Salamence or something like Kyogre. But, I do believe that Skymin creates an unhealthy problem in the meta.
obviously skymin would see less usage, but such high speed, spa, and remember, air slash still has 30% chance to flinch and seed flare 40% chance to drop without serene grace, I feel like skymin would definitely still be a top tier mon
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
ok time to stop salting about mence and post

So, when we ask whether or not we want to ban Skymin, we have to consider five things:

1) What does it do to the viability of various mons?

2) Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?

3) Is it overly popular by itself?

4) Is playing against it "un-fun"?

5) How does it affect the teambuilding process?

1) What does it do to the viability of various mons?
Skymin definitely has good matchups vs a load of strong mons in the current meta. However, it's quickly apparent that many of the mons it "forces out of the meta" still see very high usage and (as previously mentioned) are actually tier 1 or tier 1.5. Many people have brought up statements such as "if skymin were banned, we can finally use other grass type mons". However, we can clearly see it isn't skymin that is forcing things like serperior and non-sun normal venusaur out of the meta. These two mons have their own weaknesses and issues that do not directly have anything to do with skymin. In addition, other grasses fill different niches and different roles than skymin. You can't take bunnies and replace amoonguss with skymin, that's just dumb. Amoonguss fills a much different role that can't be simply just replaced with skymin. In addition, its popularity makes aboma more viable, something I and many others have started to pick up in the new suspect ladder.

2) Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?
I know fangame and many others have been salting quite a bit about skymin air slash flinches stopping trick room, but other serene grace flinchers do this just as well. Also, while skymin is a threat to trick room, it certainly isn't a full stop and has easy counterplay, in addition to being extremely punished if it loses a single 57/43 roll.

Also while Haruno is a more knowledgeable person on the subject, Skymin is also a soft check to bunnies, which is powerful enough already.


3) Is it overly popular by itself?
This question is harder to answer because I've already pointed out that ladder stats don't mean shit and seasonal stats aren't done yet, so I'm going to leave this question unanswered. We can see that it's definitely not autoinclude on every team though.

4) Is playing against it un-fun?
This question is also harder to answer, as it depends on why you play mons. Before we get deep into existential questions, it's important to consider a few things.

Skymin has counterplay
Lots of people are saying "skymin turns the game into a game of luck" and while there are admittedly cases where seasonal games have come down to a seed flare drop or a air slash flinch. However, it's important to realize that luck will always be a factor in this game. Despite this, good players regularly find methods of counterplay to skymin. At risk of sounding repetitive of what everyone has already said, multiple checks/counters such as follow me, speed control, priority, etc etc etc.

Element of Luck
I know a lot of people have been bringing up skymin being too dependent on luck, but honestly, luck will always be a factor of mons. As long as there's no swagger/confusion clause, then I highly doubt we can ban skymin solely on the basis of "it adds luck to the game". There are lots of resources and arguments about rng in games, such as poker, tcgs, mmos, etc. and I'm not going to repeat it all here but this: removing skymin won't remove hax from the game. T-wave, accuracy misses, all these things will always exist as aspects of the game. But, good players will be able to maximize their chances of winning, and, on an overall record, consistently pull through victories.

5) How does it affect the teambuilding process?

Simply put, skymin is not a huge threat to team compositions. Unless you're running some kind of mono-water non-rain team, your team likely isn't "weak to skymin". The abundancy of checks, many of which are tier 1 or tier 1.5 (say talonflame, thundurus, landot, char y, kang) means teams likely aren't going to be particularly afraid of skymin. In addition, skymin has many horrible matchups in which it can be dead weight, such as vs hail or sand or rain (and if these were more popular I'd probably nom skymin for 1.5), adding to the strength of these weather archtypes, and strengthening unpopular archtypes is good.

I suppose the argument can be made that skymin forces out mons that are "fast but not that fast" (ie darkrai, raikou) but those are less popular for different reasons, and still see play.


Alright time to address some individual points I've seen in this thread

Seed Flare is too powerful
A Skymin is only going to have the space to seed flare if it's a kill, otherwise they're going to have to fish for flinch, because, the way skymin works is that the moment you lose momentum you're screwed. Seed Flare + partner move is a double target, meaning if you predict it / see it coming you'll be fine... also it's a double target, of course it'll be powerful.

Also the drop chance is a 68%, not 80%, so say I want to seed flare + hydro pump (which btw doesn't kill some cress sets iirc) I have a .85*.80*.80 = .544 chance of pulling it through, and there's a chance any of the said moves will miss/not get a drop, and then I'll be screwed.

Sure, nothing can switch into seed flare assuming it gets the drop, but skymin only can get the opportunity to seed flare on things that are ohkos. And, even then, many things that resist grass can switchin, and still pull through.

Also, if you look at its damage values, seed flare and air slash really don't hurt very hard, especially considering you have to run focus sash because you can't tank anything unlike mons like keldeo.

Inhibits Trick Room too much
I know fangame has been talking a lot about how skymin hurts trick room, but it really doesn't hurt it that bad. First of all, fake out is a thing. Secondly, most setters can live two air slashes before being in range of seed flare. That means, assuming the other mon is busy trying to keep down your partner, ie jelly+partner vs keld+skymin, skymin has a .57*.57*.85 or ~ .28 chance of winning all those rolls, and this is assuming skymin's partner has great matchups vs tr setter's partner, which is very often not the case. Skymin+taunt isn't very powerful either, as it can either be predicted (tect setter and kill with partner, (looking at you n10) or threatened by the partner, or, if you're not bad and using powerful setters, just attack with your setter and net free kos.

Also, mons such as jirachi/togekiss are way bigger threats to trick room than skymin, as they don't become absolute dead weight after tr is up.




Anyways sorry if post was too long/convoluted, tried to structure it properly and seperate sections, etc.

P.S. TheFourthChaser you're mistaking a preface for an actual argument and misreading it at the same time
 
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Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
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After laddering about 45 games and almost close to reqs (2400 so far :[) I've come to a decision with Shaymin-Sky.
It's ridiculous when it spams Air Slash at incredible speed of 127, and flinches more often than less. Seed Flare also almost always harshly reduces Special Defense so Shaymin-Sky is a great wallbreaker. I personally didn't have a problem against it because I'm using a semi-Trick Room team, but I see non-weather/TR variant teams will have problems facing this Pokemon. However, with Rock Slide Landorus-T and Heatran's Heat Wave (Needs Togekiss / Amoonguss as partner for Follow Me / Ragepowder respectively), it can be taken down. Also, the opponent has to attack 1/2 Pokemon, and therefore, you can predict which one he'll attack and attack Shaymin with the other one. However, if the opponent reads your predictions, it'll come crashing down on you. I'm just getting off-track and explaining how to beat Shaymin now lol. Anyways, I think this metagame will definitely be healthier without it, since skill>hax. So I'll definitely be voting ban.

Nobody likes that haxing monster anyways ~_~
so basically if you come unprepared for a major threat and are getting outpredicted throughout the game you'll end up losing? sounds pretty good to me. the list of things that allow you to have some answer to skymin (once again referring back to the lovely Bughouse and also some stuff deo-s mentioned in his post) is not a small one, and it's not a crazy requirement to have some answer to a popular mon when there are so many diverse ways to do it.
 
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Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
Just confirmed my ladder recs, making my post here now.

I'm new to the Doubles OU Metagame (started yesterday), but there's a lot of carry over from VGC because they're both Doubles formats. With that in mind, and looking at Shaymin-Sky, it suffers from a lack of spread. I've seen multiple people reference that nothing wants to switch in on a Seed Flare, which is true; however that alone doesn't mean much. Pretty much nothing wants to switch into a Mega-Lucario's Close Combat, and it is hardly broken in doubles for a very simple reason. Much like Shaymin-Sky, while it is fast and can deal impressive damage, it lacks spread and can easily be KOed by the right attack. Of course, Shaymin-Sky is slightly faster and has Serene Grace, but even then it hardly feels overwhelming. It is my personal opinion that any good Doubles team should have a form of speed control. It doesn't matter if it's weather, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Trick Room or Icy Wind; all of them are good in my book and all of them beat Shaymin-Sky if they are successfully set up. Air Slash flinches certainly suck, but you don't have to take that chance if you're moving first. And heck, if you don't want to run speed control then don't.

In general I'm opposed to banning things simply because of the open nature of the Doubles metagame. While some Pokemon are better than others (Kang > Cacturne), there are a wide variety of viable Pokemon choices that aren't usually selected for one reason or another. The presence of threats in the metagame like Shaymin-Sky encourages people to seek out options to beat it. Specific niche picks become more viable and, worst come to worst, you have to take up an entire team slot with a dedicated counter like that terrible Pokemon Thundurus. Shaymin-Sky is just too easy to play around when used by less experienced players, and while it's difficult to beat when used by the better Doubles players, well, that can be said of anything used by a more experienced player. Assuming a more experienced player would use it anyway considering that it doesn't have a good 100% accurate STAB. Shaymin-Sky just has one too many problems for me to believe banning it would be justified.
 
Skymin definitely has good matchups vs a load of strong mons in the current meta. However, it's quickly apparent that many of the mons it "forces out of the meta" still see very high usage and (as previously mentioned) are actually tier 1 or tier 1.5. Many people have brought up statements such as "if skymin were banned, we can finally use other grass type mons". However, we can clearly see it isn't skymin that is forcing things like serperior and non-sun normal venusaur out of the meta. These two mons have their own weaknesses and issues that do not directly have anything to do with skymin. In addition, other grasses fill different niches and different roles than skymin. You can't take bunnies and replace amoonguss with skymin, that's just dumb. Amoonguss fills a much different role that can't be simply just replaced with skymin. In addition, its popularity makes aboma more viable, something I and many others have started to pick up in the new suspect ladder.
I don't want to talk about the ladder but something is clearly wrong with using ladder stats as a basis of argument so i'll just take care of it with one word.
>ladder
Now for the rest of what you said. These Pokémon that Skymin shits on are highly ranked and very versatile, removing Skymin won't do things like make them op as hell. As for other grasses, we don't mean we'll just slap a choice scarf onto an Amoonguss and call it a new Skymin, there are quite a few underutilized Pokémon that Skymin almost 100% outclasses like Serperior and Mega Sceptile (tfw not even that's amazing). Abomasnow is a good mon but because of Skymin it's much more used than it should be.

2) Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?
I know fangame and many others have been salting quite a bit about skymin air slash flinches stopping trick room, but other serene grace flinchers do this just as well. Also, while skymin is a threat to trick room, it certainly isn't a full stop and has easy counterplay, in addition to being extremely punished if it loses a single 57/43 roll.

Also while Haruno is a more knowledgeable person on the subject, Skymin is also a soft check to bunnies, which is powerful enough already.
The ladder was a bad argument but so is bunnies so i'll deal with them the same way.
>bunnies are good
It's not a full stop alone, and you may be thinking of Skymin as a lead anti Trick Room Pokémon. That's not how it works. Late game how do you expect to get up Trick Room up when there's a full HP Skymin with its sash intact, next to a Heatran/Aegislash/Charizard Y/Kangaskhan/Keldeo? You might be able to use the same argument of "It has to win a 57/43 roll that's in its favor", however that's a) not as hard for Skymin as it is for you, and b) does it even need air slash if your Trick Room setter already has lost HP? I mean just take any special attacker as a partner and an already damaged Mega Gardevoir/Diancie/Aromatisse/Chandelure and you can pretty much OHKO it with a combination of Seed Flare+Special Attack (usually Keldeo's Hydro Pump, which is super effective on both Diancie and Chandelure). Full room is complete shit, courtesy of Skymin industries.


3) Is it overly popular by itself?
This question is harder to answer because I've already pointed out that ladder stats don't mean shit and seasonal stats aren't done yet, so I'm going to leave this question unanswered. We can see that it's definitely not autoinclude on every team though.
It's not an autoinclude, but would Mega Mence be? It's still broken in the eyes of everyone.
By the way this is to everyone: how is Skymin different from Mega Mence? Sure, bulk is one thing, but Mega Mence didn't have the nice access to a move that has a 57% chance to flinch, nor did it have nice access to a 68% chance to drop your sdef as well as amazing coverage for the current meta game. Mega Mence+Rachi was so damn hard to beat when your checks were gone, isn't Skymin+Keldeo that hard?

Skymin has counterplay
Lots of people are saying "skymin turns the game into a game of luck" and while there are admittedly cases where seasonal games have come down to a seed flare drop or a air slash flinch. However, it's important to realize that luck will always be a factor in this game. Despite this, good players regularly find methods of counterplay to skymin. At risk of sounding repetitive of what everyone has already said, multiple checks/counters such as follow me, speed control, priority, etc etc etc.
Wow! You managed to beat lead Skymin! What a hero of the doubles community!
Until you find the counterplay to late game Skymin (maybe scarf timid Abomasnow??? oh wait that outspeeds and doesn't even OHKO Latios......) I'm not impressed. Even if you do manage to find the counterplay, would it ever be used when you don't see a Skymin? If not, that's a sign of a broken Pokémon.

Element of Luck
I know a lot of people have been bringing up skymin being too dependent on luck, but honestly, luck will always be a factor of mons. As long as there's no swagger/confusion clause, then I highly doubt we can ban skymin solely on the basis of "it adds luck to the game". There are lots of resources and arguments about rng in games, such as poker, tcgs, mmos, etc. and I'm not going to repeat it all here but this: removing skymin won't remove hax from the game. T-wave, accuracy misses, all these things will always exist as aspects of the game. But, good players will be able to maximize their chances of winning, and, on an overall record, consistently pull through victories.
We don't care about removing hax from the game. Clearly that isn't our goal, our goal is to make the meta game a safe and fun environment, and Skymin clearly isn't a fun Pokémon to have in the game because it's not only a highly luck based mon (and all the luck just so happens to be on Skymin's side!) but a mon with relevant af coverage. It may be a supportive attacker but don't ignore the fact that it beats a high amount of Pokémon without the Seed Flare drops/Air Slash flinches necessary.
5) How does it affect the teambuilding process?
Simply put, skymin is not a huge threat to team compositions. Unless you're running some kind of mono-water non-rain team, your team likely isn't "weak to skymin". The abundancy of checks, many of which are tier 1 or tier 1.5 (say talonflame, thundurus, landot, char y, kang) means teams likely aren't going to be particularly afraid of skymin. In addition, skymin has many horrible matchups in which it can be dead weight, such as vs hail or sand or rain (and if these were more popular I'd probably nom skymin for 1.5), adding to the strength of these weather archtypes, and strengthening unpopular archtypes is good.

I suppose the argument can be made that skymin forces out mons that are "fast but not that fast" (ie darkrai, raikou) but those are less popular for different reasons, and still see play.
>forcing out Raikou
Isn't that Lando-T's job?
Skymin is a huge problem for teambuilding. I'm always afraid of Skymin when I teambuild, and even some teams classified as good have amazing difficulty with the green fairy. I don't understand everyone in the thread saying "I don't usually consider Skymin in teambuilding" because it's the most overcentralizing thing ever .-.
Inhibits Trick Room too much
I know fangame has been talking a lot about how skymin hurts trick room, but it really doesn't hurt it that bad. First of all, fake out is a thing. Secondly, most setters can live two air slashes before being in range of seed flare. That means, assuming the other mon is busy trying to keep down your partner, ie jelly+partner vs keld+skymin, skymin has a .57*.57*.85 or ~ .28 chance of winning all those rolls, and this is assuming skymin's partner has great matchups vs tr setter's partner, which is very often not the case. Skymin+taunt isn't very powerful either, as it can either be predicted (tect setter and kill with partner, (looking at you n10) or threatened by the partner, or, if you're not bad and using powerful setters, just attack with your setter and net free kos.

Also, mons such as jirachi/togekiss are way bigger threats to trick room than skymin, as they don't become absolute dead weight after tr is up.
Wow, Jirachi is a threat. Takes out so many relevant Pokémon in the meta game, outspeeds them, and is so annoying with its fast base 100 speed Iron Head flinches. Togekiss too, beating... Keldeo? idk what else even.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Alright well I have to post I guess so I will do that now.

Firstly, I really feel the value of seed flare is being oversold by some people. As previously mentioned, while the seed flare drops are powerful and make it extremely hard to switch into, Shaymin's frailty and exploitible defensive typing means that you can really only use seed flare if it KOes the target and if it's partner is capable of taking out the other Pokemon or redirecting it's attack, as otherwise Shaymin will either be KOed or at the very least knocked down to its sash. Essentially, my point is that the only reason Shaymin-Sky is being suspected is a hard hitting Serene Grace Air Slash off of a base 127 Speed test (not saying this isn't a valid reason, I just don't think seed flare arguments are very persuasive). Secondly, Shaymin is a Pokemon that greatly relies on keeping the field conditions in your favor, if you get Shaymin on the field when your opponent's weather, trickroom, or tailwind isn't up, it essentially allows you to whittle down and mostly immobilize one Pokemon while your other Pokemon 1v1s the mon of your choice (which is why Keldeo + Shaymin is such a good combo). On one hand, this is an incredibly powerful tool, allowing you to circumvent the usual flow of doubles play, where you have to think about what your opponent is gonna do in two seperate slots. On the other hand, it requires you to control the field (which isn't easy against weather, but Shaymin can often help prevent TR itself), it also requires that the opponent doesn't have some Pokemon (that range in viability from extremely good to mediocre), such as Scarf Lando, Thunderus (the prankster one), Follow Me Jirachi or Togetic, or Weaville, as these Pokemon also return the match to the usual doubles paradigm. Finally, while I agree that Skymin is influential enough that you need to come out of team building with a solid way of dealing with Skymin + offensive partner, I don't think "centralizing" is a good argument for banning Skymin when there is stuff like M Diancie and M Kanga that are far more centralizing. So the question boils down to, is a 60% chance to cheese your way through the opponent on a Pokemon with excellent offensive typing/prowess (albeit terrible defensively) too much of a reward for controlling the field conditions and removing some generally solid checks? Right now I'm leaning towards "no" (no ban), but I'm open to changing my mind.

However, It Is Guest while you don't have to agree with everything in checkmaters post, your annoying sarcasm and over use of green texting (this isn't 4chan bro) doesn't mean parts of his post that you dismissed aren't completely valid, and the lack of actual content in your post only makes you look worse, not him.
 
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