np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

[Arcticblast]

You guys all know I've been against banning Mega Mence from the start. I've just found it very difficult to actually put my reasons for keeping it in the tier into words.

My primary issue with Mega Salamence is that it's fairly difficult to actually get into a position where you can set up and take the game away. This is largely dependent on the flow of battle but is also related to the things that work against Mence - whereas Kangaskhan (another very, very good offensive Pokemon) has a small pool of hard counters, which makes it easy to force things out or just chunk something, Salamence has a wide pool of checks*. While having fewer hard counters is definitely a good thing, having more Pokemon that make setup difficult is a major roadblock to a Salamence sweep. It's not even like these checks are random low-tier Pokemon, either - several prominent Pokemon such as Rotom-A, Thundurus, Heatran (aside from Subtran), Aegislash, Suicune, Metagross, Diancie, and Mega Mawile all pose a threat to Mega Salamence just by being on the field when Mence is trying to set up; with Intimidate support, this list expands even further with Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Sylveon, Mega Gardevoir, and Politoed. It's true that Mega Salamence can run Substitute to help circumvent some methods of beating it; however, running Substitute removes the option to run coverage, which greatly hinders its ability to sweep when several Flying resists are already common Pokemon.

I lost my train of thought so tl;dr Mence isn't as easy to set up as it might seem
also if you choose to just straight attack you face the challenges of the typical physical attacker (or you're weak because you're Special)

*Kangaskhan doesn't really have as many "checks." As much as I wish it was, Rocky Helmet Amoonguss is not a Kangaskhan check.

 

[thebagman]

I would just like to clarify Mega Salamence isn't overcentralizing in the Doubles metagame at all. You stated that overcentralization is where a certain Pokemon appears commonly on teams, and where most teams have prepared certain counters to deal with that threat. What is happening in the Doubles metagame right now is the complete opposite, and here's why:

1. Out of the 85 matches I have played on the Smogon Doubles Current ladder, I have literally encountered only 4 or 5 teams with Mega Salamence.

2. Personally, I don't run a specific counter or check on my team to deal with Mega Salamence. Sure, I run HP Ice Aegislash, but that's also a reason to deal with common Doubles threats such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, etc. I have an uncommon move on Aegislash for Flying-, Dragon-, and Ground-type coverage in general, but I did not add that to its moveset simply to deal with Mega Salamence. I'm pretty sure many other Doubles players don't dedicate a specific Pokemon to handle Mega Mence.

3. Teambuilding is definitely not stale because not many players decide to put Mega Salamence on every single team. Like I stated in my first point, I rarely encountered a team with Mega Salamence. In fact, I still saw Mega Kangaskhan on most of the teams I battled on the ladder.

But as with your other points in your post above, I have to agree with you, especially with the notion that Jirachi and redirectors in general benefit Mega Salamence more than other Pokemon.

Still on the fence in this discussion.

On the fence too

1) Even with the suspect going on, where teams should be banking on utilizing and preparing for increased intimidation, Iv'e seen a marginal increase in the amount of Bisharp usage, even with its rising to an A+ threat. Certainly isn't overcentralized

2)When Mence does finally appear, scarf latios and other lando t garchomp counters are hungry and waiting. Three birds one stone..

3) Kang still has more play time and is versatile in terms of coverage compared to the salamander, but teambuilding def isn't stale when u can swithc things up with a spec mega mence

Indecisive as far as where to lean :P

 

[atomicllamas]

Yo, didn't realize posting was part of the reqs (I asked on #doubles and no one answered me, rude), but I might as well make the laddering I did worth it and post so I can get a chance to vote. First off I'd like to say that figuring out if Megamence was broken during the suspect test was incredibly hard due to the fact that no one used it on the current ladder (and the ladder is terrible anyways so e_e). That being said I was pretty on the fence about how I should vote on Mega Mence, because as Laga stated in the logs that Lolk posted its hard for Pokemon to be broken in the Doubles tier in practice because in doubles you have more tools to play around the opponent (double the tools ;o). Of course something doesn't necessarily have to be "broken" in practice for it to warrant a ban, it can simply be unhealthy for the tier or over-centralizing (although some would argue this is just a symptom of brokenness ;o). I think that these terms apply to Mega Salamence much more than the word "broken" does as Mega Salamence often requires people to use overspecialized sets such as Blizzard Suicune just to deal with Jirachi/Amoonguss + Mega Mence. The fact that it can both support its team (and itself) with intimidate on its first switch in, along with its impressive bulk allowing to shrug off even super effective moves (and weak 4x effective moves), is also probably unhealthy for the doubles meta game. I kind of see Mega Salamence the same way I saw Shuckle in XY RU (for those of you that know what that was like, probably very few, lol) but Shuckle made building Sticky Web HO extremely easy (and stale af), while making teambuilding for other styles of play much more difficult. In the same way its extremely easy to slap Mega Mence + redirect mon on any team (especially since Jirachi and Amoonguss are already pro) and sweep through teams, where as it is a lot more difficult to slap something on a team that counters this strategy. Because of this imbalance in team building and the fact that Mega mence seems p unhealthy for the tier I am most likely going to end up voting ban.

 

[Audiosurfer]

While I can still be swayed, I think I'm leaning more anti-ban than I was in the past. This isn't so much that I think that Mega Salamence isn't broken, as I think that there are plenty of arguments on the ban side that make a fair case for why banning it is a legitimate option. Rather, from what I've seen / read / played and from the history of Doubles as a format, I'm comfortable with the idea of leaving it in the metagame in order to give the metagame more time to develop.

I'm pretty sure that plenty of solid answers to it will crop up as the metagame grows and changes (as Arcticblast pointed out there are plenty of viable checks being used even now) and if this turns out to be false and Mega Salamence shows itself to be wholly unmanageable then we can always ban it then, but as of now I just don't think that it has shown itself to be so strong that there is no chance of a healthy metagame being developed with it in the tier. As such, I think it's better to not ban it and let strategies spring up organically than ban it preemptively before we really have a chance to see what its impact is.

 

[Lasagne]

There are strong arguments on both sides here, and I could honestly be swayed either way, but I'm leaning towards the anti-ban side at the moment. There's no doubt that MegaMence is a very centralizing and powerful threat. But the main problem I see is that it isn't such a big threat on its own, unlike other powerful Pokemon in the tier (MKanga, Landorus-T, etc.). For mence to show its true potential, it requires a partner with redirection support, such as Follow Me Jirachi or Rage Powder Amoonguss. With these partners, it's not hard for mence to set up a Dragon Dance and even have a Substitute alongside it, which is where the trouble starts. Niche answers such as Blizzard Suicune have arisen as a result, which may have implications that it's overcentralizing. However, I don't think that's the case. It's natural for such a big threat to make some Pokemon and sets drop in viability, while others become more common in order to beat the aforementioned threat. This will happen with any new powerful Pokemon - it's just been more noticeable with mence due to some bigger changes. Many Pokemon that were previously very viable can also deal with it well; they just have to take a large chunk of damage in the process. I would definitely rather have a low health Politoed/Suicune/Azumarill/Whatever and a dead mega Pokemon (almost any mega works here) on the opposing team than both at full health.

To sum it up, MegaMence isn't broken on its own, it needs support (and even then I'd say it isn't broken, as it's not too hard to beat). And, the fact that you need to carry a couple of checks/counters on your team is definitely not a reason to ban it. This is true of any big threat. If you don't have anything for a Mega Mawile under Trick Room, you're going to lose to it. If you don't have anything for BD Azumarill + Amoonguss (and mew if you want 9.9) you're going to lose to it. I'm planning on voting no ban.

also what audio said above^^ is true

 

[Not Canadian]

After about several battles with good players involving plenty of Mence, I wasn't expecting to still be undecided.

What I can see is that - no denying it, it's still pretty damn good if it's not broken. Intimidate is as good as ever, and with its unrealistic bulk you shouldn't be expecting to KO it easily. The aspect of Salamence that strikes me the most however, is its base 120 Speed, which basically allows it to power through Doubles unboosted if left unchecked. The fact that it can run numerous sets, including special ones with Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump / Hyper Voice / etc., is also an excellent talking point if we're taking it to "checks and counters". It's this kind of unpredictability that forces people to have dedicated checks/counters to it as opposed to soft counters that don't de-optimize a team, and if I were to vote ban, it would probably be for these reasons.

On the other hand, though, I feel that the things that lets M-Mence down are: a bad case of the 4MSS, similar to M-Kanga: using one set deprives it of the ability to check another set of targets; a crippling weakness to some common spread moves like Rock Slide and Hyper Voice in addition to its already horrendous 4x Ice weakness; and that it feels...slow, in terms of sweeping. To explain what I mean, I'll talk about the "redirection" argument, which I'm not a big fan of: it implies that on its own, Mega Mence can be taken down rather easily, and that with support, it can be "broken". Well, as I think was pointed out earlier, Mega Houndoom can be good too with a little redirection (although then again that's a false equivalency -- the two are on completely different power levels anyway). It doesn't seem to rely much on spread moves, and if its partner isn't going to be helping it sweep I'm frankly not convinced it ends up being consistent. What I can see being a primary reason I would vote no ban is that the situations in which Mence can consistently sweep through are surprisingly difficult to attain.

But really, I'm not thoroughly convinced that either logic is 100% correct - however, completely distinct from M-Mence's own performance in the tier I think it's preemptive to just ban it as opposed to seeing whether it can be adapted to -- which, seeing as this is Doubles, is a prospect I'm fairly optimistic about seeing, and I'm confident that we have the leeway for a retest if need be. That being said, I think it also sets a dangerous precedent to let the tier develop around a Pokémon instead of on its own. While my lean has changed greatly towards no ban at this point, the decision is difficult enough that I could abstain altogether.

 

[Stratos]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-doubles-stage-1-salamencite-vote.3525588/

CTRL+F your name to see if you can vote in the suspect test. Congrats to everyone who gets to vote and thanks for participating either way.

EDIT @ above: i really feel that first sentence.

 

[Asterya]

About the beginning of the suspect test, i thought that MegaMence will ruin the doubles metagame. A 95/130/90 bulk is really good while having Intimidate before Mega-Evolving is so useful : All these qualities make Mega-Salamence able to take hits giving it more opportunities to set-up. Sure It is overcentralising, but overcentralisation =/= ban.

That's why I made a lot of teams that are well-teched to deal with it and I started laddering in the current ladder, hoping to find some MegaMences there. I played Trick Room, Rain, Heavy Offensive teams and they all did well. The thing is that Mega-Salamence has got viable checks and counters everywhere, and the metagame is getting used to it quickly. Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, ice moves and Trick Room are all raising in usage, so I don't think that's unhealthy for the metagame, since these moves are used to beat other important threats.

This suspect was started really soon, i think we should wait for the metagame to develop. Certainly I agree with some users here. Even thought Mega-Salamence is strong and finds opportunities to set up safely, it's still threatened by many viable pokemon in the doubles metagame. It is easily handeled by a lot of team archetypes and as I already said, people are getting used to it.

 

[pokebasket]

Well, puff, I didn't know that posting here was a requirement to vote, so I was waiting until this morning to prepare my post and write it here :s

I hope that my effort hasn't been in vain, but well, anyway I want to let my text here.

I think that Salamence has always been a really strong pokemon and a huge threat, but now is even better with its Mega-Form. I've tried it in VGC and Doubles, and my opinion is that it's even more dangerous here. I say this because in Doubles it can have more teammates to support it, making Salamence even more unstoppable.

One the one hand, with Follow Me or Rage Powder support, it can destroy easily a team after boosting itself with Dragon Dance. Moreover, you can face an Special Salamence with strong attacks like Hyper Voice, Draco Meteor or Fire Blast; or even a mixed set with Earthquake to deal with Heatran. It also has a great bulk which allows it to take some Ice or Rock attacks. And finally, it still has access to Intimidate, imo the best trait in Doubles/VGC, to make easier its sweep.

One the other hand, it's true that it is still x4 weaken to Ice, and x2 to Rock (and the common Rock Slides), but you can afford this thanks to the Intimidate, the new bulk and the support. Maybe a bulky Fairy with Hyper Voice could counter him, but not at all, because for example Sylveon can't survive a physical hit:
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 432-508 (110.2 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So, tu sum up, I think that if Salamence continues in the tier, we will need to have several counters for it, and maybe it won't be enough. I consider that with a great support, it's unstoppable and I'm sure we'll see it in a lot of VGC teams this year (Clefairy + Salamence is so broken). For all of these reasons, I'd vote ban.

 

[FullLifeGames]

So I guess I'm again one of the guys, who didn't read the description and focused on the Coil.
Most things about Mega Salamence have really been said already, so that everyone can build their opinion.

It's ridiculous that this thing has the potential to nuke, the bulk to survive (and even Intimidate) and also the speed to outspeed most things.
Of course it doesn't stop there: It's really versatile (DD, Sub DD, Mixed, Special, whatever you want + Normal Move), so you don't know automatically what it runs and could be surprised. Of course some sets are better than the others, but they are still good possibilities to catch the opponent off guard.

But this is of course not about how it fares in the tier and tbh can be said about Mega Salamence in every tier.

I realize that in Doubles there are a bunch of checks to this mon. This is fine and hinders the mons effectiveness, but earlier I read a post which said: "Sure It is overcentralising, but overcentralisation =/= ban.".
This makes me to believe that the question shouldn't be if it can be checked or countered, it should be if it this monster has a negative impact on the metagame(, which is what I would call overcentrailising).

One thing which hasn't been talked about I think, was that some were talking that after time, the meta would develop around Mega Salamence.
This might be true (would it really be healthy?), but you shouldn't forget that Mega Salamence can also develop thanks to its versatility.

I think there were a lot of arguments been made that this thing is overcentalizing the meta(, also just to mention it, the Ho-oh comparison was great), so my opinion would be ban for Mega Salamence for having a negative impact on the metagame right now.

 

[Stratos]

sorry bros but we're not adding anyone to the voting list retroactively :( sorry about wasting your time on the ladder, thanks for the input though

 

[clius]

Okay, so after my first post and reading all the new ones that have come, my mind has changed a lot (especially about my first post), I'm close to abstaining, but am leaning towards no ban.

It's a little hard to post after almost every argument has been brought up this late in the vote, but here goes anyway.

Many people have said in this thread that: Mega-mence is obviously strong and versatile, with a good enough movepool to run many very different sets. Mega-Salamence has god speed, the wonderful intimidate before it mega-evolves, great bulk, awesome support options, etc etc.

However, getting mence into a position that can sweep is difficult. Ice has always been a popular offensive typing, and many of the pokemon that run it are bulky water types that are used to taking a hit and returning with ice beam (especially with lando-t everywhere). The most common argument about d-dance salamence and a redirection-er is strong, but doesn't warrant for a ban.
For one, getting the d-dance that makes it monstrous up can prove difficult, even with redirection.

The only way to guarantee in any match that you have mence and a redirection-er that are both relatively healthy is if you lead with the two. It's possible later-game but definitely requires a lot more effort and prediction. Even if you lead with the two, many common leads use fake out, taunt, status, intimidate, tr and other moves that shut down redirection, or at least make it not as effective. spread moves also forget redirection, and it doesn't help that mence is weak to two very common ones (syl's hyper voice and rock slide). The redirection argument, like many have said, can also apply to other setup pokemon, but that doesn't mean that they should be banned.
also, i think that mence hasn't been around long enough to see how teambuilding will work around it. if it needs a ban, it still can later

 

[Braverius]

Y'all ready?

 

[Stratos]

tagging everyone left so we can get this vote done ASAP

marilli
koolkranny
DDRMaster
ZANBAKUResh
finally

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-doubles-stage-1-salamencite-vote.3525588/#post-5950324

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

inb4 pwnemon posts that mence is banned

 

[qsns]

anty is a psychic

 

[Stratos]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-salamencite-vote.3525588/page-2#post-5953184

Please PM me with links if this vote qualifies you for the Tiering Contributor badge (i.e. you've participated in four suspect votes now).