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np: Doubles Stage 2 - Suspect Discussion

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I actually did originally think lifting Sleep Clause was pretty unhealthy for the meta, but it's true that sleep isn't actually as broken as I made it out to be at first.
To be fair, the prospect of Choice Scarf Breloom sleeping everything in sight while still posing an offensive threat before it locks into a move is kinda scary, but what I've observed about sleep abuse from my laddering + your bickering reiteration of each other's ideas discussion is that it's pretty one-dimensional and relies too heavily on one Pokemon + a good sleep length roll. Thus I'm forced to conclude that lifting Sleep Clause could actually have a positive effect on the meta, especially the teambuilding aspect of it.

also UGH guys stop c/ping the OP questions we are NOT PROVIDING GUIDING QUESTIONS NEXT TIME ISN'T THAT RIGHT POCKET
 
I have also noticed that, now that Amoonguss has to chose between Spore and Rage Powder each move, it is a lot easier to mess up some offensive strategies. I have seen amoonguss played where they just try to Spore everything in sight and I would prefer that spamming over spamming Rage Powder next to a setup sweeper any day :)
 
also UGH guys stop c/ping the OP questions we are NOT PROVIDING GUIDING QUESTIONS NEXT TIME ISN'T THAT RIGHT POCKET
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Lol.

The questions get right to the heart of the matter and pretty much everyone is saying the same thing. Sleep is not broken unless your opponent is a bad player. The counters to it exist, are well known and not particularly onerous to use when team building.
 
  • Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
Not particularly. While sleep is no doubt extremely potent, it is simply another disruption/support tactic like Trick Room or Follow Me or Wide Guard. All of these moves give the partner a better opportunity to do its job, and none of them are considered overpowered. It isn't really overcentralizing either, since Jumpluff and Vivillion aren't becoming S-rank threats overnight.

  • Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
It doesn't really restrain teambuilding at all. It is not necessary to carry multiple 'mons just to beat sleep, since the majority of sleepers are pretty slow, and they can only sleep one 'mon at a time, so one could predict which pokemon they want to sleep, protect, and attack with the other. Since almost every sleeper is a grass type, very good pokemon in this meta like Zard-Y and Heatran can roast them. And if sleep really damages your team, you can slap a lum berry of safety goggles on them.

  • Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
As a bunch of people mentioned before, Sleep doesn't target any specific group, so it can't really limit diversity. On the other hand, a lack of sleep clause brings about new viable pokes, like Jumpluff, which has been getting a lot of attention. New items like safety goggles and lum berry can be used to stop sleep spam as well. Overall, a lack of sleep clause would increase, as opposed to limit diversity.

  • Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I would say positive. Sleep really punishes poor teambuilding and misplays, but can almost be a liability if the opponent has a team that doesn't care about sleep, and has the ability to easily play around it. Really, it only makes the playerbase adapt and become better players.
  • Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Yes it has an opportunity cost. Using a sleep 'mon means you have to use one of a select few good sleepers, and you can't really just slap one on without thinking about team synergy. On the sleepers that were already good without sleep clause, like Amoonguss and Venusaur, you have to think about whether a sleep move is worth a moveslot, when they already have 4MSS syndrome. Sleep spam is even worse, since having 3+ grass types, a type with so many exploitable weaknesses, is doing no favors to team synergy, and with a lot of top 'mons carrying SE moves, it is difficult to run a successful sleep spam team,
  • Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
I would like to see MegaZard-Y suspected, since I think its combination of amazing power and sun support is a bit ridiculous. I am not entirely sure if it is banworthy, but I think it at least deserves a suspect test
 
now that i have reqs ill post here 9.9
  • Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
No. Sleep is threatening, yes, but it is not broken. There are easy ways around sleep (like the stuff already mentioned: lum, safety goggles, etc) Sleep is a great help to your partner, allowing it to set up with ease, just like follow me, or trick room. Follow Me and Trick Room are not broken. Sleep can also be played around. Sleep also has counters now like the ones listed above, and most teams have a grass type or heal bell.
  • Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
Nah. A team doesn't really need to prepare much, like a terrakion can just use lum over a life orb. Terrakion can still function without the extra power, plus avoiding a pesky burn or spore.
  • Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
Increase. Never before in doubles can you see Jumpluff and Vivillion running around and actually not weighing your team down. Some top threats are hit hard by sleep allowing underrated stuff to shine. Sleep does not at all limit diversity.
  • Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
Positive or neutral. Like i said, sleep promotes lots of diversity in the metagame, and allows for some pokes to shine. It creates a new strategy that is fun, yet not overcentralizing. It also isn't very hard to make your opponent sleep more than one pokemon, by keeping some pressure on your opponent or using substitute.
  • Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
Ya it has a cost. team synergy is super important when making a team. you don't just want to slap venusaur on your team just because of sleep, you could already be super weak to heatran. Like some other people said, sleep users are mainly grass type, leaving you with some gaping holes to fill in in terms of synergy.
  • Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
Nope! Dubz is quite possibly THE most fun meta right now, so lets keep it this way. :)

So yeah, no sleep clause pls
 
here's a long, weird, and exciting battle with pwnemon. At least eight Pokemon slept in that match, and neither side had an unfair advantage.

The deletion of Sleep Clause definitely will make battles longer, which can be good and bad in the Doubles format. When Pokemon are sleeping, it eases prediction on both sides of the field. In the current metagame, every turn means a lot, and one misplay or haxy moment tends to make the game. Drawn out battles give leeway to being haxed and allows for smarter thinking to overcome the struggle easier. I totally thought I lost when my Keldeo got paralyzed from Thunderbolt, but sleep really helped me come back from that setback.
 
Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
No, it isn't broken and overcentralizing. It's just a good strategy on the ladder, and most of the time when you build a team around it it's not balanced and you'll lose lots of games trying to put everything to sleep.Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
It doesn't restrain teambuilding that much unless you're the user and build a terrible team. Besides, unlike Singles, you can attack the sleep user with the other pokemon and most pokemon have protect to block a predicted sleep move.Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?It increases diversity as not many pokemon suffer from sleep and previously unviable pokemon are now allowed to actually do some decent work against teams.Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?Sleep imo has a overall positive impact, because sleep gives you a little advantage if you pull it off, and makes players to play more strategically. Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
The cost balances out the rewards if you play it correctly, if you don't you have a major disadvantage and the opponent can easily predict around your sleeping stuff.Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
I'm happy to say that Doubles is a very fun and balanced meta now.

I look forward to the suspect test :)
 
  • Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
No, to be honest when i started to get the reqs i thought that, but actually i just found sleep so interesting and healthy for the meta and of course is not overcentralizing.
  • Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
No, is not restraining teambuilding, you have so many ways to deal with sleep (and even a team without nothing special vs sleep can do nice), and you dont need so much preparation (chesto berry, sustitute, sleep talk, fake out etc.... just take someone of this examples and is ok)
  • Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
Of Course that increase the diversity of the meta, all viables pokemon with sleep clause continues being viables and without the clause we are gonna see new pokes, so is nice for the meta.
  • Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
Like i said in the other questions sleep have a positive impact to the Doubles metagame, thanks to increase diversity and add other viable aspect to the meta.
  • Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
The cost balances are fine, is all about predition and how you play around sleep. (having confusion in the meta, of course sleep is not so powerful because this...
  • Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
Confusion is always a problem to a videogame thats wants to be competitive (just coin flips all the time) but we cant ban swagger in dobles because is a nice strategy use Safeguard+swagger in your sweeper . So i dont want any ban or unlock, the meta is fine and balanced (Maybe the most balanced)
 
Lolkomori said:
I have also noticed that, now that Amoonguss has to chose between Spore and Rage Powder each move, it is a lot easier to mess up some offensive strategies. I have seen amoonguss played where they just try to Spore everything in sight and I would prefer that spamming over spamming Rage Powder next to a setup sweeper any day :)
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The thing is you can't tell when an opponent is going to wake up(except when he reaches max but not the point)He can wake up 1st turn and mess you up.Like Pwnemon said when i was playing him i got a 1 turn wake up with my charizard Y and i roasted his scizor.
 
champetero said:
The thing is you can't tell when an opponent is going to wake up(except when he reaches max but not the point)He can wake up 1st turn and mess you up.Like Pwnemon said when i was playing him i got a 1 turn wake up with my charizard Y and i roasted his scizor.
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Guys, this whole point of not knowing when your opponent will wake up is why you use Substitute. If the opponent wakes up early, then you merely lose your sub and put them back to sleep. The biggest limiting factors to sleep are those that involve stopping sleep from happening in the first place or KO the inducer in the same turn. Fast heavy hitters, having BOTH of your Pokemon threaten to KO, disruptive moves, Sleep Powder missing, Lum Berry/Goggles, and Venusaur/Skymin/Ice Beam Ludi are all pretty good. However, at worst a Protect/Substitute/Sleep Powder Jumpluff is faced with a guessing game. Faced with a double target, Pluff can just Protect and its partner scores momentum. Being only targeted by one Pokemon would mean you can put one thing to sleep provided you can figure out which one to put to sleep. Having both Pokemon Protect can result in a free Substitute. Against lesser experienced players, the prediction game is all-too-easy, but facing such a gamble early-game against a formidable opponent isn't something you just want to jump into. You have to pick and choose your situations carefully, but all-in-all if you try to Sleep Powder the Pokemon that uses Protect while the other one KOs you, then you are SOL. Even worse yet, you can guess right and Sleep Powder could miss.

Sleep should be unbanned not because it isn't as good as hyped, but because it requires more prediction than expected.
 
After getting to reqs my experience with Sleep abuse on the ladder basically came down to it being really goddamn annoying at times when people would have like, double sleep leads, but I never felt like it really got people anywhere.

If anything, the most ridiculous team I saw for sleep abuse was Sun, with Chlorosaur just sleeping anything that could stop Zard Y from smashing through a team, but even that was kinda just screwed over if anything got a 1 turn sleep and just woke up to kill Zard Y. It's kind of annoying and makes the meta a little more RNG based with sleep turns being more relevant, but I don't feel like I was put in a position where a lack of sleep clause made me feel like I was losing in a situation where I should be winning. Double sleep leads don't create enough momentum for teams to actually be able to abuse the lack of sleep clause, and if anything a lack of Sleep Clause breaks doubles way less than something like MKhan does. I don't think removing Sleep Clause has a POSITIVE effect on the game, and if that's how we should be voting by, I think retaining Sleep Clause would be the better option, but if we look at it with the mentality for if the metagame can go without Sleep Clause and not be broken, yeah I'd say we could get rid of it.
 
I have no idea if it is broken or not... I never faced any sleep abuse teams in the suspect. So I basically have to fall on arguments that makes the most sense to me, but I gotta admit I'm lending pro-lift of the clause. It just seems to situational to rely on sleep a lot for it to work, which isn't much wanted of course.

But I honestly have no idea. It's not overcentralizing at all, it doesn't seem to have a negative effect on the meta, and only opens up options to run other things like jumpluff and whatnot. I don't know man, I just don't know.
 
Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing? It's not nearly as hard to play around as it used to be. We already had Lum Berry, Safeguard, Taunt and Heal Bell, but now we also have Electric Terrain and Misty Terrain, Grass types are immune, Overcoat protects from powder moves, and Safety Goggles almost works like limitless Chesto Berry. Not to note we have a new AWESOME prankster user, Klefki, who can use priority safeguard or priority taunt as a lead, and if the opponent doesn't lead with his sleeper then you can set up screens instead! Sleep was overpowered in Gen V, but hey, things change with time. This is a cool battle I managed to win becuase I used double sleep, but it's not like I destroyed the guy. We had an even game and he could have won if he used Fake Out + Thunderbolt on my Vivillon the first turn.
Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep? Not too much. Because of the many ways to combat sleep, picking one or two for your team isnt hard at all. For an example, Aegislash's King's Shield doesn't pretect against spore, so he is major sleep bait. Putting Safety Goggles or Lum Berry on him can screw a sleep user over so hard that he loses(I learned that the hard way).
Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame? A lot of people say that sleep punishes poor teambuilding. They're right. Not having a way to deal with sleep is like not having a way to deal with set ups. If you lose to it, you should remake your team. It helps people learn and become better at the game.
Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council? There is one thing: High Jump Kick! It's such an unfair move. 130 BP, with 90% accuracy! That's more power and more accuracy then the monster moves like Hydro Pump or Fire Blast. Moves with 120 or 110 BP always have harsh negatives to consider, like pitiful accuracy, recoil damage or lowered stats. But the only thing HJK has is recoil damage if you miss! Flare Blitz has less power and ALWAYS deals recoil damage, except if you miss. Meaning HJK has a 90% chance to destroy at no cost, and a 10% chance of only being negative to yourself. That's stupid. It's like if you were to have a button that makes you nuke your enemy, but the nuke has a small chance of blowing up in your face. Also, if HJK was banned for singles, maybe, just maybe, Blaziken wouldn't have to be uber anymore! It's best Fighting STAB would be Sky Uppercut, which only has about 65% of HJK's power. I know that Blaziken thing is off-topic, but it was just a thought.
 
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Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
I don't think it's broken. It's very easy to see it coming and pretty counterable. I run Safeguard on Cresselia which helps a lot, and I also find that sometimes I can leave the sleeping Pokemon in until it wakes up using Follow Me Togekiss as a partner. There aren't that many stat-boosting mons in Doubles so Togekiss just has to eat a couple attacks as long as they don't have multitarget moves. If the opponent goes for double sleep, it will likely take more than two turns unless they're using something Togekiss can seriously threaten with Air Slash/Heat Wave (Amoonguss, Breloom). As for Mega Venusaur, if they lead I can lead with Mega Kanga and Togekiss and use Fake Out and TWave to neuter it and then Air Slash flinch it until it has to switch. Also obviously Fake Out gives me a chance to set up Safeguard. But moving away from my own team's counters, there aren't that many mons that can use sleep effectively so it's predictable, and fast and powerful Pokemon are everywhere in Doubles so if you predict correctly you can get a KO without suffering through sleep.

Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
I think it puts a premium on Fake Out, Follow Me (specifically on Togekiss or Jirachi with a psychic move), and Safeguard, but these are very useful moves anyway. I originally put Safeguard on Cresselia to guard against burns. I have been fine without using a dedicated sleep counter that isn't effective in other areas - you can counter sleep without using something that would be bad in a Sleep Clause metagame.

Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
Darkrai is really only around because of sleep. One Poke that it makes a big difference to is Amoonguss, and I've even seen a few Parasects (although none that were used well - one was on a TR team with Surf Slowking which was kinda cool). Again, I don't get the sense that I cannot use certain otherwise-good mons because they're weak to sleep, or that I have to stick sleep counters on my team that aren't also useful in other situations.

Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
I'd say neutral to positive. It adds another strategy to toy with, another element to have to deal with. It doesn't necessitate a specialized, otherwise-useless counter. Seems good to me.

Is there any opportunity cost in using Sleep?
Yes, you rely more heavily on luck. It's hard to build a watertight, guaranteed-to-win team that prominently features sleep because things will just wake up after one turn sometimes, and one turn is all that's necessary to paralyze your sleep mon, KO it, etc. Almost all sleep mons are also grass type, which means you have to carry extra support against Talonflame, Charizard-Y, Heatran, etc. You also typically need a Ghost or two to deal with Fake Out, and a lot of sleep teams go for Trick Room which is limiting. I'd say Mega Venusaur is the main thing that doesn't require a lot of support to induce sleep, but it's also just very obvious.

What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
Fake Out, Jirachi/Togekiss, Safeguard, Taunt, Protect, Pranster Taunt or Safeguard, Sap Sipper, grass types, fast and powerful mons in general, obviously Lum Berry and Safety Goggles, and just seeing it coming and playing smart. Doubles is full of really powerful mons so if you predict correctly you can get the KO before sleep comes. There are also just very few sleep Pokemon who also pack a powerful punch without setup, so leaving something in that's asleep can work out.


Conclusion:
Sleep clause should be lifted. It affects the metagame positively by introducing a new (or rather more viable) strategy element, the sleep inducer.
 
Sleep does have a few answers, but the sleep turn rng is disgusting. if both players are using sleep,games can be decided on who sleeps longer as was the case in the battle between wepwnemon and lolkomori.

still don't know how i feel about sleep.
 
I'm even more certain that sleep clause should be lifted now, as I've noticed that the opportunity cost of using sleep is even larger than I expected. It's so easy to be completely screwed over by the opponent waking up a turn earlier / later than expected or deciding to go for the substitute or rage powder or whatever rather than the sleep.
 
I used an old Trick Room team to make reqs. Didn't change anything out of sheer laziness, so I had no sleep inducers of my own, and didn't really have any counters to sleep (no taunt, safeguard, safety goggles or fake out). My only counter to sleep was Gourgeist and Lum Berry.

It's definitely been harder to use Trick Room without sleep clause. With Fake Out and Spore, you can't get Trick Room set up first turn. Best case scenario, you double protect and one pokemon gets put to sleep the following turn. But even if you get Trick Room up, Amoonguss with its 30 spe is likely to outspeed and put your other pokemon to sleep as well.

My favorite memory was facing a team using a Wide Lens Jumpluff with Sleep Powder, Encore, Substitute. It was terrifying. I couldn't set up Trick Room and there was no way to fight back with my pokemon being put to sleep and getting picked off one by one.

Although, I wouldn't say sleep is broken, it sucks for Trick Room teams. Had I prepared for it, I think I maybe would have had an easier time with it.
 
I actually built a team around sleep with a gravity team..Sure it seems gimmicky but i think it's pretty viable.I used a mega gengar and the usual hypnosis trap and then i discovered something amazing - Whimiscott learns grass whistle and because of prankster and 116 speed it almost always plays first(apart from a ninjask quick attack or something) The only problem even with gravity on,grass whistle is 91% accurate but that's still way more accurate than venusaur's 75% sleep powder and too make it even more broken grass types are not immune to it!
I'm not sure if this makes sleep broken..Grass whistle (and hypnosis for that matter) are absolutely useless without gravity and not to mention that sleep finally depends on luck..Oh and talonflame wrecks both my sleep guys...
So just pointing that out..
 
HumbleSpaceMan said:
I actually built a team around sleep with a gravity team..Sure it seems gimmicky but i think it's pretty viable.I used a mega gengar and the usual hypnosis trap and then i discovered something amazing - Whimiscott learns grass whistle and because of prankster and 116 speed it almost always plays first(apart from a ninjask quick attack or something) The only problem even with gravity on,grass whistle is 91% accurate but that's still way more accurate than venusaur's 75% sleep powder and too make it even more broken grass types are not immune to it!
I'm not sure if this makes sleep broken..Grass whistle (and hypnosis for that matter) are absolutely useless without gravity and not to mention that sleep finally depends on luck..Oh and talonflame wrecks both my sleep guys...
So just pointing that out..
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The problem is that it HAS to have support to work, and thus you might spend several turns setting up to have a chance for it to blow up in your face if you get bad sleep rolls.
 
I think it's already been brought up, but one of the big problems with removing sleep clause is introducing more chance/hax into the game. By allowing you to sleep multiple enemies, you threaten the enemy by simply giving them bad sleep turns.
Also, the classic case of sleep-inducer (+teammate) vs sleep-inducer (+teammate), presents the issue of chance/hax too. It can come down to both sleep-inducers putting opposing teammates to sleep. Then from there, it may just be whoever wakes first gets to do something. Seems a little unfair that something pivotal may be decided by something totally out of a players' control.
Now not to say there are not ways to stop yourself from being put into these situations (lum, safety goggles, grass types, safeguard, the list goes on), but the fact that the situation introduces the possibility for more chance/hax into the game is a little unsettling. I can already recall multiple games from my vgc days where a game was decided on sleep turns. Not to say that's good or bad, but perhaps it signifies something that we don't want- being unable to do much when you're asleep.
Of course there are other things which have been introduced which allow for much more hax, and yet are clearly legal (serene grace). So not to say, simply because something introduces more chance is a bad thing. But rather, does introducing sleep introduce too much chance into the metagame? Even though we can control sleep, are we willing to take the risk of allowing sleep/sleep turns to play a disproportionate role in a battle?

edit: personally i'm cool with introducing more chance. i think it adds excitement to the game. also, i think it dosen't add a disproportionate amount of chance because of the ways you can mitigate the effects of sleep (and ultimately chance).
 
MewtwoHidden said:
The problem is that it HAS to have support to work, and thus you might spend several turns setting up to have a chance for it to blow up in your face if you get bad sleep rolls.
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This is exactly right. Almost any strategy can work if you give it plenty of support. Sleep is no different in that regard. Simply because you can win with a team build around the strategy doesn't make there something wrong with it. While we are looking at this from a slightly different angle than a lot of suspects, in that is potentially being taken off a banlist, the same standards should really be being applied to it. So, being able to sweep a battle with it is not an issue, unless it is doing so to an extent that is broken or unhealthy for the meta, which sleep really isn't.
 
I am a long time VGC player. I played in Smeargle's heyday of 2008-2009. I played when Breloom decided to run through the metagame in 2013. My experiences in VGC helped translate to doubles here and helps me understand what is truly "broken."

Smeargle in 08/09 was a monster. Forced every team to carry Lum and Chesto Berry. What made Smeargle that monster? Dark Void. Since Dark Void will remain banned here, there is nothing to fear from Dark Void spam destroying the meta.

Breloom in 2013 is more akin to the test here. It was really good against unprepared people and unprepared teams. However as the meta developed, Breloom's effectiveness decreased and eventually was an afterthought for most players. During my play on the suspect ladder I saw nothing that indicated that Breloom, Amoonguss, or other sleep users would play more than a background role. The meta is already pretty suited to deal with no sleep clause. Sleep was near broken in BW, however with the change back to pre-BW mechanics, it is no longer such a burden for a team to deal with a sleeping Pokemon on their side. No longer is a Pokemon forced to stay in just to wake eventually.

Sleep did not change my team building at all. My team was already well suited to deal with a lot of sleep spammers. One way I often deal with gimmick Pokemon, Taunt Thundurus, easily fits on a team and make sleep users dead weight. It was a go to in VGC 2013 to deal with Breloom, and was a go to here. This felt like a neutral affect on the metagame. I didn't see any super obvious sleep counters on other teams, and I did not carry any additional anti-sleep technology outside of just playing well around it and Taunt Thundurus.

The opportunity cost of using sleep moves probably doesn't reward sleep spam. There are a lot of natural counters in the common sleep moves, Sleep Powder and Spore. The rest are highly inaccurate or have terrible distribution among Pokemon movesets. Relic Song Meloetta actually double slept my Pokemon which directly led to a loss, but with only a 20% chance to even sleep one Pokemon, it was just a fluke.

As mentioned a lot of counters are naturally in the metagame. Taunt Pokemon such as Thundurus naturally fit on teams already. Grass Pokemon cannot be put to sleep by the common sleep moves. A lot of sleep abusers are weak to the proliferation of Fire Pokemon such as Charizard and Talonflame. Some teams already run Chesto Rest Pokemon which although slightly annoying to lose your Chesto without resting gives even another counter.

At this time I don't think there are any suspects worth looking at.
 
I honestly don't think sleep is broken. Most abusers of sleep are bug/grass, and because of the overwhelming fire/flying type presence in doubles, it's normally taken care of pretty easily. Heck, just the overwhelming presence of strong crap in doubles makes sleep less of a problem, as the only bulky sleep powder/spore users are amoonguss and Mvenu to my knowledge. Also I see some drawbacks to spore. If you stay in to spore/sleep powd...ok imma just call it sleep something and it goes for protect...it's partner has suddenly become a lot more threatening, as it essentially gets a free turn if the sleep users partner targets it as well. Also, the grass buff regarding sleep powdering moves, safety goggles, and, more lum berries running around all lessen sleep's sting. Taunt and other things also block spore/sleep powder
Edit:Wow ninja'd
 
GlassGlaceon said:
I honestly don't think sleep is broken. Most abusers of sleep are bug/grass, and because of the overwhelming fire/flying type presence in doubles, it's normally taken care of pretty easily. Heck, just the overwhelming presence of strong crap in doubles makes sleep less of a problem, as the only bulky sleep powder/spore users are amoonguss and Mvenu to my knowledge. Also I see some drawbacks to spore. If you stay in to spore/sleep powd...ok imma just call it sleep something and it goes for protect...it's partner has suddenly become a lot more threatening, as it essentially gets a free turn if the sleep users partner targets it as well. Also, the grass buff regarding sleep powdering moves, safety goggles, and, more lum berries running around all lessen sleep's sting. Taunt and other things also block spore/sleep powder
Edit:Wow ninja'd
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you say that sleep can be a liability because the opponent can simply go for protect when you try to sleep it. While this is true, it is also true for every single other move in doubles except like feint and phantom force. Also no one ninja'd you, the last post was 20 hours before yours.....
 
okay so i am not fond of long posts and most of the finer points have already been brought up so here we go

  • Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
Not broken, not overcentralizing. Annoying as shit but too unreliable to be anything other then a last ditch hail mary. Sleep inducers suck. Painful when multi turn sleep, but so are crits and ice beam freezes. Trick Room is kind of super pooped on without Mega Pinsir, but they already have too many problems to begin with. Semi-TR is fine.
  • Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
No. There's honestly no sense in trying to team build against it anyways, since most anti-sleep measures are rather meh, and the effect itself isn't that big unless luck poops on you. Best to just kill the inducers.
  • Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
Neither. It just kind of exists.
  • Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
Has a net neutral effect. Increases Mega-Venu use but that's about it. Gimmicks will likely die down soon. Increses viability of a few mons though they still suck.
  • Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
All dependant on if RNG jesus favors you.
  • What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
All suck, don't bother unless your team gets shit on by sleep.
  • Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?
I hear that apparently Giratina-O is suposed to be balanced. Free Gira-O and mega big chill.
 
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