Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

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Maybe we should suspect Smash Pass. I remember it was banned in NU last year. With many Assault Vest receivers now on the rise, and with lesser Prankster users to mess up with the strategy, Shell Pass is not only viable, but also game-breaking in the tier. It allows poorly made teams to sweep much better ones.

The only two users of this strategy is Gorebyss and Huntail, but they have enough good points in a good typing and Defense to allow them to pull it off consistently and against many physical attackers in the tier.

If you want to see how painful SmashPass can wreck first hand, check out my team here: Sample Teams for Beginning in the NU Metagame
While broken, I feel that SmashPass at least can be stopped to an extent. Pokemon with low defenses cannot really accept it so you can put something strong into play so that the opponent is pressured not to pass. You can also use Roar or Taunt on a predicted pass. Regardless, it is very strong, and definitely is something that deserves study and suspect.

On another note lets ban Zangoose legit wtf is this thing. @_@
 
On the subject of Baton pass, I have been testing out speed boost combusken with swords dance and baton pass, and have found i can easily set up two swords dances on things, switch into one of my sweepers and proceed to blow through teams. Right now not many people are using Combusken, but I can say from first hand experience that it is quite good. It has decent amount of bulk from eviolite allowing it to set up. It is also reusable opposed to shell smash (white herb is single use). If i fail with my first sweep attempt i can go back in set up at least one more swords dance before baton passing out into my other sweeper. If for some reason you need to stay in on something you have the powerful option of flare blitz to kill something before BPing out. If you havent tried it out yet you should give it a whirl.
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 184 HP / 36 SDef / 36 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Flare Blitz
 
Baton pass Combusken is very very good, easily got me to top 50 on ladder, which is fairly decent. I think the optimal spread for combusken should be:
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 188 Spd / 200 HP / 120 Def
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Brick Break
Speed allows you to outspeed scarfed 95's after +2 speed and non scarfed 95's after +1 speed (obviously). HP and defense investment allow you to guarentee to baton pass a speed boost/ sd/ whatever combination you have after a max attack acrobatics from fletchinder, including a stealth rock switch in, so you can pass speed to a faster priority user (for me, feraligatr) and go to town. Brick break to have an accurate stab that hits alot of the tier without losing hp
 
Baton pass Combusken is very very good, easily got me to top 50 on ladder, which is fairly decent. I think the optimal spread for combusken should be:
Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 188 Spd / 200 HP / 120 Def
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Brick Break
Speed allows you to outspeed scarfed 95's after +2 speed and non scarfed 95's after +1 speed (obviously). HP and defense investment allow you to guarentee to baton pass a speed boost/ sd/ whatever combination you have after a max attack acrobatics from fletchinder, including a stealth rock switch in, so you can pass speed to a faster priority user (for me, feraligatr) and go to town. Brick break to have an accurate stab that hits alot of the tier without losing hp
I like Fire Punch more as it helps weakening Vileplume and stuff that Combusken walls like Accelgor. I also like WilloWisp+Bulk Up as it gives a lot of setup opportunities and actually does something to Gatr who switches in for free. It is also useful to weaken pokemon you can't boost again such as seismitoad, etc. before switching out. Anyway i really like Combusken overall thanks to its good typing to check Shiftry and the amazing support it provides
 
On another note lets ban Zangoose legit wtf is this thing. @_@

Ehh, Zangoose is good, but I dont think it's too broken for the tier. He can almost never safely set up, due to his frailty. He has good coverage in Knock Off, Close Combat, and Facade, and good priority in Quick Attack. His speed tier is mediocre, sitting at Base 90, leaving him open to the fast, hard-hitting Pokemon in the tier. He seems outclassed on most aspects by Swellow, and I don't think He is deserving of a ban.

Nothing in the tier deserves a ban at the moment, except for SmashPass. I used it on an alt, and I was astonished by how easy it was to win games. Assault Vest Receivers are growing in popularity, and at the forefront is Magmortar, boasting great coverage and good enough stats to obliterate teams. SmashPass took a huge hit with the Sigilyph ban, as Sigi was the best receiver of SmashPass, being able to spam Stored Power and get insta-kills. It ran Dazzling Gleam as well to beat the Dark-Types that were immune to SP. However, even with Sigi gone, Xatu is an incredible receiver, doing nearly the same thing, also carrying Magic Bounce to make mince-meat of Roar users. SmashPass is broken as all hell, and deserves a suspect.
 
can y'all calm down with the broken talk, we _just_ banned something so let the metagame settle and develop a bit more before we start going crazy. smashpass is strong but you can play around it by just not giving your opponent the room to set it up (gorebyss isn't hard to put pressure on).

Pokefiend626 are you kidding with that comparison? Zangoose and Swellow do two entirely different things. The main difference is that Zangoose tears massive holes in most defensive cores and doesn't auto-lose to Rock-types/Steel-types, while Swellow cleans up vs offensive teams that lost their Spiritomb / other priority user. You can't say one outclasses the other if all you see is "Normal type with boosting ability".

252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 205-243 (47 - 55.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 252-297 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 163-193 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 201-237 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

maybe not the most relevant of calcs but there's a significant power difference between the two, moreso if you use Adamant Zangoose (which you should).
 
Yeah really, smashpass is very viable but you're sacrificing two turns to do this and is incredibly predictable. Unless Gorebyss threatens your only win condition, it's fairly easy to play around (not to mention priority, with 3 highest ranked pokes in the tier having it, one who can even hit through subs, along with a plethora of others).

Zangoose is an incredible poke at the moment and could be A+ worthy in my opinion, as it devastates bulky offense, but it certainly isn't broken. He certainly isn't outclassed by Swellow. I find Swellow incredibly underwhelming based on how easy it is to hard wall and it being weak to rocks, preventing it from spamming u-turn. The Boomburst set has brought me a lot more success than the physical one ever has.
 
Yeah, you guys are right. I've been using Zangoose on my current team, and he accomplishes a whole lot more than Swellow. He punches holes in bulky offense, and having something to compliment him in breaking walls like Vileplume, Hariyama, Seismitoad (basically anything that takes a Facade well) makes him an intense threat.I have been pairing him with my current favorite NU Pokemon, Gothorita, as she traps and slays defensive mons like the ones I listed earlier. Goth clears the enemy team of anything that takes Zangoose's hits well, and Zangoose cleans. It's quite effective, and I suggest the core. I don't see Zangoose as broken by any means, but is A+ or even S-Rank potential. Just throw him some support and watch him tear up the field.

The only reason I made the comparison between Zang and Swellow was because I had little experience with Zangoose, and was unaware of just how different he was in comparison to Swellow. I apologize for my unknowing stupidity.

(May I also add that Zangoose's coverage is just plain ridiculous. Dark- Fighting- and Normal-Type coverage is unresisted in the tier IIRC).
 
Uxie needs to be suspected, its far too good for nu. Its defensive stats are op, and its pretty imposible to take down after a few calm minds. I really think uxie should be next.
 
Uxie needs to be suspected, its far too good for nu. Its defensive stats are op, and its pretty imposible to take down after a few calm minds. I really think uxie should be next.
The thing about Uxie is that it's defensive typing is utter arse, and it's offensive stats are so pitiful that even after a few boosts it still can't get a ton of kills. If you look in the NU viability ranking, we have it marked down to B-Rank due to these flaws
 
Nothing will probably need to be suspected for a while until the metagame settles some more. At that point, maybe Shiftry, Spiritomb, Accelgor or Uxie will be the suspects, but we can never know for sure since nothing is obviously broken at this point.
 
Uxie needs to be suspected, its far too good for nu. Its defensive stats are op, and its pretty imposible to take down after a few calm minds. I really think uxie should be next.
Bad defensive typing and lack of recovery hold it back from being broken in the tier. Despite its great stats, it simply doesn't have the move pool or typing to take full advantage of such and is therefore manageable by most offensive and defensive teams alike. This said, it is definitely a top tier pokemon, and subCM Uxie is an absolute (BAN ME PLEASE) to Defensive teams.

Clearly lets suspect Wurmple. LEGIT DOES THIS LOOk LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY!?!?

C8S6VX3.png
 
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It's quite effective, and I suggest the core. I don't see Zangoose as broken by any means, but is A+ or even S-Rank potential. Just throw him some support and watch him tear up the field.

idk what's up with you guys, first in LC, now in NU, but posts like these should probably be moved to the actual viability ranking thread if you want anything to be done about them >.>
 
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idk what's up with you guys, first in LC, now in NU, but posts like these should probably be moved to the actual viability ranking thread if you want anything to be done about them >.>
He wasn't referring to changing the viability list, he was saying that Zangoose is a top tier pokemon.
 
So now that Sigilyph has been banned, it has created a void on multiple teams that has needed to be filled. So far im seeing 2 things thats seem viable. Mespirit and Xatu. The two things that are very similar to sigi is the coverage that both pokes have very good coverage. Also both get access to trick and can run a scarf set like sigi could.

Mespirit's Coverage : Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Extrasesnory, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Thunderbolt

Xatu's Coverage : Dazzling Gleam, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, Heat Wave, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam

The couple of things that make them better is the fact that they both have access to U-turn. This allows you to gain momentum, or stay in and kill things with coverage moves.
As far as items go, I would recommend running an AV Mespirit. With AV you can come in on special attackers like Vileplume and either hit them hard with a Psyshock/Psychic or U-turn out when they switch. If you dont want to run AV then you can also run rocks, however I would try to have rocks on another pokemon and go with coverage.
For Xatu, I would say run LO and roost. LO allows Xatu to get a little more punch to make up for its slightly lower base stat, and roost ofc allows you to get back health after either rocks or LO recoil starts to add up.
Like i said above both of these sets can run a scarf set and have access to trick to cripple things.
 
So now that Sigilyph has been banned, it has created a void on multiple teams that has needed to be filled. So far im seeing 2 things thats seem viable. Mespirit and Xatu. The two things that are very similar to sigi is the coverage that both pokes have very good coverage. Also both get access to trick and can run a scarf set like sigi could.

Mespirit's Coverage : Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Extrasesnory, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Thunderbolt

Xatu's Coverage : Dazzling Gleam, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, Heat Wave, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam

The couple of things that make them better is the fact that they both have access to U-turn. This allows you to gain momentum, or stay in and kill things with coverage moves.
As far as items go, I would recommend running an AV Mespirit. With AV you can come in on special attackers like Vileplume and either hit them hard with a Psyshock/Psychic or U-turn out when they switch. If you dont want to run AV then you can also run rocks, however I would try to have rocks on another pokemon and go with coverage.
For Xatu, I would say run LO and roost. LO allows Xatu to get a little more punch to make up for its slightly lower base stat, and roost ofc allows you to get back health after either rocks or LO recoil starts to add up.
Like i said above both of these sets can run a scarf set and have access to trick to cripple things.
The problem is that with AV mesprit you lose Healing Wish and Stealth Rock (and Trick) which are awesome options for any offensive team. Not to mention that Life Orb to guarantees the OHKO on Physically defensive Vileplume with Psychic and Mesprit always avoids the 3HKO from uninvested Sludge Bomb with Leftovers and no HP investment (and if max hp it has a chance of not even 4HKOing) so AV is really not necessary
 
Talking about Mesprit, I have found ChoiceSpecs set to be effective.

Choice specs Mesprit hits hard, with its wonderful coverage and prediction it can dent holes in opponents teams. It generally OHKO's/2HKO's most of the tier. Its downside is 80 speed due to which it is prone to get outsped by faster targets and get struck back hard in return. It wrecks the base of Stall/balanced teams. After some prior damage to the walls It OHKO's most of them.

mesprit.gif


Mesprit @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam/HiddenPower Ground
- U-turn/Trick

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 302-356 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 452-534 (127.6 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 313-369 (81.5 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after SR
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 480-566 (128.3 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 326-384 (104.4 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Spiritomb: 232-274 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after SR
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 332-392 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It is to be noted that Psyshock has ability to OHKO Hariyama but doesnt OHKO Vileplume or Gurdurr, thats why i have prefered to run Psychic. Psychic OHKO's Qwilfish, Poliwrath, Vileplume, Gurdurr and many more. Energy ball nails all x4 grass weak pokemon. For the third spot you can choose between HP ground and Dazzling Gleam which have specific targets named Magneton and Spiritomb respectively. U-turn is for maintaining momentum and keep the offensive momentum going on.

Mesprit definetly has 4MMS one can choose from large amount of options available, one can ditch U-turn and use trick on cost of losing offensive pressure. Healing wish is not recommended on this set as its speed is not commendable.

One might argue Boltbeam gives a better coverage, but keeping the walls and the current metagame in mind i chose those set of moves. Suggestions are much appreciated.
 
The problem is that with AV mesprit you lose Healing Wish and Stealth Rock (and Trick) which are awesome options for any offensive team. Not to mention that Life Orb to guarantees the OHKO on Physically defensive Vileplume with Psychic and Mesprit always avoids the 3HKO from uninvested Sludge Bomb with Leftovers and no HP investment (and if max hp it has a chance of not even 4HKOing) so AV is really not necessary
So yes you lose access to Stealth Rock and Healing Wish. But you dont necessarily need to have either of them. I would try to find another stealth rock pokemon to use on my team and for me healing wish is a little gimmicky (not to say it isnt good and a viable choice its just to gimmicky for my taste). You can then use Mespirit as a bulky pivot and a very dangerous threat. The addition of AV means that you wont be taking LO recoil from U-turns on the switch, which is one of my major issues with LO. Since you have no reliable recovery that means that you are doing 6% damage and losing good portions of your health from LO and rocks upon each switchin. This limits your survivability considerably, and in long drawn out matches against stall teams Mespirit isnt going to survive really long. Now I'm not just saying slap AV on a pokemon without testing it out (or in this case having someone else test it out, Tribalt on PS or Carbon Footprint on here). The team with AV Mespirit on it has worked incredibly well, and I know all about disliking the lets slap AV on random pokemon. This one is actually a viable choice because you dont need access to any support moves, you can go with just straight coverage. So before you knock it try it out.
 
Maybe we should suspect Smash Pass. I remember it was banned in NU last year. With many Assault Vest receivers now on the rise, and with lesser Prankster users to mess up with the strategy, Shell Pass is not only viable, but also game-breaking in the tier. It allows poorly made teams to sweep much better ones.

The only two users of this strategy is Gorebyss and Huntail, but they have enough good points in a good typing and Defense to allow them to pull it off consistently and against many physical attackers in the tier.

If you want to see how painful SmashPass can wreck first hand, check out my team here: Sample Teams for Beginning in the NU Metagame
I've played with SmashPass a decent amount, and I think it's a bit inconsistent. To be quite honest, I don't think that it is even worse suspecting at this time. Yeah, setting up Gorebyss really isn't that difficult with dual screens support. But there is also a large amount of priority in the tier to account for (Shiftry, Feraligatr, Liepard, Hariyama, Gurdurr, Kangaskhan, Fletchinder, Spiritomb, Zangoose, Golem, like there's a shitton of priority). Making sure that your team is prepared with a good recipient to take on many of these Pokemon is insanely difficult. You also have to make sure that your recipient has the power and coverage to break through the opponent's team. You ALSO have to make sure that your recipients have enough bulk that they don't just die once they come in on an attack. You ALSO have to make sure that you Pokemon is fast enough at +2 to outpace most or all common Pokemon in the tier, up to and including Choice Scarf users.

I know this is all on paper, and you won't have to worry about all of these different potential problems in every match, but they are very real things that consistently come up while you're playing SmashPass. I think the real problem with SmashPass is that not many people have been using it, which means that not many people have been (intentionally) preparing for it. So yeah, SmashPass is scary, but I don't think it is nearly as much of an issue this generation as it was last generation.
 
I want to bring up two pokemon that are imo currently the best in the tier.

magneton.gif
spiritomb.gif


I want to start on Magneton which is just so powerful with Analyctic and Choice Specs that nothing really switches in on it. Has an awesome typing that gives it many switch in opportunites and it forces many things out. Decent bulk that complements its typing and not terribly slow. Eviolite, Specs and Scarf sets function way differently and need different counters (or you just use granbull and smash its face in). As all of you know i suck at making arguments but i wanted to say that imo this is the #1 threat in the tier currently (possibly suspect worthy).

Spiritomb has an awesome typing as well and a great movepool. His two main sets function entirely different and again need different counters. Dread Plate/Choice Band Tomb is just an amazing catch all revenge killer with good bulk and CroTomb sets up on half the tier and is incredibly difficult to stop if you get it going. Not suspect worthy imo but definitely a mon that fits on so many teams and is just so flexible and reliable at what it does.
 
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I do like the nice number of Steel-types in the tier, and they are all pretty viable.

Steelix is still as bulky as the walls of Troy, and has SR and roar for support. Steelix walls a great number of threats (klinklang, swellow, etc.) and can run a decent Curse set with Curse/EQ/Gyro Ball/Rest too. I'm surprised I don't see this bro more.

Kilnklang is also pretty good with his SubShift set. After one Shift Gear he becomes very difficult to stop, so I would consider it to be a great sweeper. It is walled by a large amount of counters so klinklang is stuck to the late game but is far from the worst in the tier.

Any extra thoughts on these two? I gave a very brief overview but I always love seeing cool new sets and ideas...
 
To the important NU people: I would like your approval to start a thread about Weakness Policy and its role in the NU metagame. I think we could learn a lot about the meta by carefully studying Weakness Policy and maybe we could even discover a new top-tier, threatening set that uses Weakness Policy to its fullest. I know you're busy and everything but I would appreciate it if you could reply as soon as you can. Thank you
 
To the important NU people: I would like your approval to start a thread about Weakness Policy and its role in the NU metagame. I think we could learn a lot about the meta by carefully studying Weakness Policy and maybe we could even discover a new top-tier, threatening set that uses Weakness Policy to its fullest. I know you're busy and everything but I would appreciate it if you could reply as soon as you can. Thank you

Well the main problem is that there is like nothing that uses it well. There is like that one gimmicky Drifblim set and that is it really. I am not an important NU people but I don't think Weakness Policy is useful enough to warrant it's own thread.

EDIT: Fair enough I forgot 2 Pokemon but 3 is still not much at all.
 
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Well the main problem is that there is like nothing that uses it well. There is like that one gimmicky Drifblim set and that is it really. I am not an important NU people but I don't think Weakness Policy is useful enough to warrant it's own thread.
Well, we haven't really tapped into the amazing potential of Weakness Policy yet in my opinion. There are plenty of Pokemon that could viably make use of Weakness Policy.
 
Well, we haven't really tapped into the amazing potential of Weakness Policy yet in my opinion. There are plenty of Pokemon that could viably make use of Weakness Policy.

Ask a moderator (Raseri, Zebraiken, DTC) for permission.

With that said, the problem with WP in my opinion is that you'll need the user to be bulky enough / have a move or ability that allows it to survive, yet be able to outrun opponents and have multiple exploitable weaknesses. There aren't many apart from those 3 which I can think of.
 
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