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np: NU Stage 0 - For What It's Worth

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happy endorphins said:
MoltenKyurem, you've even changed your avatar to promote this new set... When you find a set that you like, theres nothing stopping you :p
Unfortunately, this set isn't in the analysis (I tried Molk, I tried), but I still think it should be. MoltenKyurem has shown that this strategy is definitely worthy of a set. Sure it might be a gimmick but it is an effective one that can be used even if the opponent has already seen it.

On the topic of Armaldo as a spinner, I've found that Cryogonal is by far the better spinner in NU purely because it has instant recovery, most of the viable spinners in NU are weak to hazards so they really aren't getting many opportunities to Spin, on a Trick Room team however, Armaldo could be used as an offensive spinner with Max Attack so it can force a switch (especially under Trick Room) to spin. Spinning is such a hard task in NU that people are resorting to things like Wartortle and lol Tentacool.
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Hey Wartortle is actually good lol, he can status, haze stat changes and has access to s-toss if he actually wants damage. He's short on recovery, but so are most spinners and can always resort to aqua-ring/rain dance or Rest.

Armaldo is pretty decent, he can do some damage and actually set up rocks, he also has boosting moves.

Personally, I HATE Cryogonal, not hate facing it, just hate it in general. It's typed so poorly it has to watch out for almost everything, it also gets comfortably ohkoed by anything on the physical side, a lot of the threats it wants to stall (Slowking) carry the likes of Psyshock if they're offensive and even with it's good special bulk it doesn't appreciate a couple of fire blasts from Magmortar. To top it all off, it's rock weak, which is a very bad thing on a spinner, especially if they have a spin blocker that can threaten you/taunt so you can't recover it off.

The tier needs Sandslash to drop, Claydol is currently in RU and the only reason Sandslash sees any use next to Claydol is the amount of Krookadiles running around.
 
I'm of the opinion that Cryogonal is the best spinner in NU. It has something none of them can offer: speed. I find that, a lot of the time, spinning for armaldo meant death.

wartortle is an awful spinner (it's too easy to force out while asleep), but I haven't seen much of tentacool.
 
Breludicolo said:
I'm of the opinion that Cryogonal is the best spinner in NU. It has something none of them can offer: speed. I find that, a lot of the time, spinning for armaldo meant death.

wartortle is an awful spinner (it's too easy to force out while asleep), but I haven't seen much of tentacool.
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^ cryogonal is by far the best spinner in the tier. yes, it has its shortcomings and those would primarily be its shitty defense and bad defensive typing, but reliable recovery and therefore reliable spinning is definitely worth it. and you can't use "sr weak" as a reason why its bad when you consider that only wartortle and spinda have an advantage on it in that department. :/

tentacool is garbage. don't use it, really. edit: and yeah, cryogonal is the only one who can stand up to non-toxic misdreavus for an extended period of time
 
Cryogonal is the best spinner in the tier because it can actually kill ghosts aside from Misdreavus. The other spinners are hit by pretty much every hazard and have no hope of killing Missy.
 
Sabinfrost said:
Hey Wartortle is actually good lol, he can status, haze stat changes and has access to s-toss if he actually wants damage. He's short on recovery, but so are most spinners and can always resort to aqua-ring/rain dance or Rest.
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cryogonal gets recover..................

aside from that, eveone else is right, wartortle sucks, hell even delibirdb is better cause it can hit stuff (hustle CB ice punch FUCK YEA)

btw your forgetting that natu is superior to all of these cause it prevents hazards being set up in the first place :3
 
It appears that everyones forgotten that smeargle can Rapid Spin, and it isnt weak to Rocks. The threat of spore can easily force switches giving smeargle a free spin and spin blockers can easily be but to sleep / set up on. The roles that Smeargle can play are endless and in a tier without many good spinners, Smeargle can use Rapid Spin well.
 
Smeargle makes a sub-par rapid spinner. Plus, he could use that slot for something more important. I wouldn't use him as a dedicated rapid spinner.
 
I haven't used Smeargle as a Rapid Spinner, but I can see a niche in that everyone is going to expect a Spore, so instead of the opponent using something as sleep fodder, you just got a free Spin off.
 
The Reptile said:
I wouldn't use him as a dedicated rapid spinner.
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"Dedicated" is the word here. You can fit Rapid Spin on Smeargle if you really, really need it because Smeargle will almost certainly get off one (1) spin, but the fact that Smeargle hardly lasts more than a couple turns is what makes it a subpar spinner. That, and the fact that Smeargle doesn't really have a slot to give up for Rapid Spin... there's almost always a better option to be using.
 
In addition smeargle is cockblocked by most faster ghosts anyway, so rapid spin won't work anyway. I prefer to use smeargle at the start of a baton pass chain. IMO rain and baton pass are probably two of the most powerful play styles in NU atm.
 
gamer40000 said:
Yes, off of non-existent attack. Doesn't matter much at all.
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Dude, +6 CB Rapid Spin does 69.4-81.8% to an uninvested Sunkern. Don't mess.

On a serious note, what are gonna be the best counters to Leafeon, saying as it will undoubtedly become more popular with all the leavers and Sun (and therefore Chlorophyll) coming in?
 
Drifblim counters Leafeon and can set up in its face, seriously use Drifblim more, it is a really good sweeper and has tonnes of immuntities / resistances. Pokemon like Eviolite Misdreavus can tank a hit and willowisp Leafeon while Steels like Mawile resist Grass and Normal
Edit: Dont forget Weezing which no one seems to use nowadays
 
MoltenKyurem said:
cryogonal gets recover..................

aside from that, eveone else is right, wartortle sucks, hell even delibirdb is better cause it can hit stuff (hustle CB ice punch FUCK YEA)

btw your forgetting that natu is superior to all of these cause it prevents hazards being set up in the first place :3
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I tried out a team that got to I think it was 40 something? Beat a couple of the top 10 players with a Wartortle, it certainly does work.

At the time I used it mostly for countering hail teams, which it did really well. Setting up Rain Dance to counter out opposing weather gave it essentially leftovers in Rain Dish and improved the damage of his pathetically weak Scald. Haze stopped him being complete set up fodder.

I had a couple of other Pokes to take advantage of the Rain and he's decently bulky. 80/80 pre-eviolite isn't too bad and Water is a good defensive type as we all know.

I'm not claiming Wartortle is brilliant, he's really not, but he can work. He's better than the other NFE spinners like Baltoy and Tentacool.
 
Sabinfrost said:
I tried out a team that got to I think it was 40 something? Beat a couple of the top 10 players with a Wartortle, it certainly does work.

At the time I used it mostly for countering hail teams, which it did really well. Setting up Rain Dance to counter out opposing weather gave it essentially leftovers in Rain Dish and improved the damage of his pathetically weak Scald. Haze stopped him being complete set up fodder.

I had a couple of other Pokes to take advantage of the Rain and he's decently bulky. 80/80 pre-eviolite isn't too bad and Water is a good defensive type as we all know.

I'm not claiming Wartortle is brilliant, he's really not, but he can work. He's better than the other NFE spinners like Baltoy and Tentacool.
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cryogonal also countered hail teams.......

and how does it stop subsplit rotom-f? it OHKOES no matter how bulky wartortle is, and not to mention that wartortle cannot break its sub with its weakshit scald.

seriously, if your going to use a spinner that counters blizzspam, use cryogonal, give it enough speed to outrun subsplit rotom, and call it a day its that simple

and you cannot forget that wartortle has a horrifying base 59 hp, not matter how bulky it is, SE attacks will still 2hko it, this combined with its lack of offensive presence AND speed to stop pokemon from setting up a substitute on it and wrecking it make it completely, unviable even in NU.

not to mention subCM misdreavus sets up all over it if wartortle is lacking haze
 
Wartortle counters hail about as well as Magikarp counters anything. Rotom-f walks all over it regardless of Wartortle's EV spread and being able to change the weather does not make it a hail counter since many Pokemon on hail teams can rip Wartortle to pieces with a high powered move. They don't have to use Blizzard, and there's no point in using Blizzard against something that obviously resists it.
 
Yeah Wartortle sucks, its just set up fodder for half of the metagame and even as a spinner it is almost totally outclassed by Cryogonal. If you want a physically defensive spinner then choose Armaldo ir Torkoal, if you want specially defensive then choose Cryogonal. All three of which can actually do something that isnt spinning. Sure Haze prevents set up but youre going to have to predict perfectly and many pokes can easily ko Wartortle
 
Malvira said:
Wartortle counters hail about as well as Magikarp counters anything. Rotom-f walks all over it regardless of Wartortle's EV spread and being able to change the weather does not make it a hail counter since many Pokemon on hail teams can rip Wartortle to pieces with a high powered move. They don't have to use Blizzard, and there's no point in using Blizzard against something that obviously resists it.
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HEY magikarp at least counters missingno.! outspeeding it and OHKOing it with tackle on its base 1 defense. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but seriously, hes right. failtortle should never see the light of day, theres nothing it does another spinner cant do better.

edit, and cryogonal gets haze too............................ wasnt that the reason to use wartortle?

to counter blizzspam and haze things? cryogonal does both better.

also, your saying wartortle can take physical hits better than cryogonal and therefore should be physically defensive? here this calc....

specs glaceon blizzard vs physically defensive eviolite wartortle
(40.06% - 47.52%) (2hko after stealth rock)
substitute glaceon just would have cockblocked anything wartortle could do.....
 
Has anyone tried out SubSeed Serperior? I've been having fun with it on the ladder since Snow Warning got booted. Above average bulk, great speed, Giga Drain, and Leftovers make it pretty hard to take down.
 
Subseed serperior is really fun, that combination of speed, bulk, and ability to hurt slowking and other pokemon with recovery really seals the deal for it being an excellent pokemon.

WAAAAAAAAAY better than crappy wartortle.

it does get competition from jumpluff tho, as it gets sleep powder and encore
 
MoltenKyurem said:
Subseed serperior is really fun, that combination of speed, bulk, and ability to hurt slowking and other pokemon with recovery really seals the deal for it being an excellent pokemon.

WAAAAAAAAAY better than crappy wartortle.

it does get competition from jumpluff tho, as it gets sleep powder and encore
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I think you want the thread to flame Wartortle more than you want us all to use FEARgle...

On a more serious note, Smugleaf is a great Pokemon. I've seen a lot of Dual Screeners and I agree that those variants are also pretty good. The SubSeed set is magic though. Pure Christmas magic.
 
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