np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

[Smith]

I actually really like the idea of subdisable haunter, I'm definitely going to give that a shot! I agree that absol is the most threatening Pokemon in the meta, but he's far from 'broken'. Most anything faster with substitute can play some sucker punch mindgames with absol and usually emerge on top. He also has some "hard counters" despite everyone's attempts to the contrary, Quagsire and Tangela wall him utterly. He requires adequate prediction and preparation, just like everything else in the tier.

 

[destinyunknown]

I saw someone (i think he was called inc0gnito) using that Haunter subdisable set, and it was pretty annoying, even more because he was using toxic spikes, and the fact that haunter has 3 immunities. The only thing i don't like about haunter is that, despite his nice resistances to moves like bug or grass, is too frail to take advantage of them :/

Absol is a behemoth, we all know it, but I don't think its broken. It has some hard counters (don't argue against it, it's true) and again, prediction wars are risky. And that's without considering the fact of how difficult is setting up with absol (for example, if you come into CM LO Mesprit, you cannot set up right of the bat without the risk of being KO if the opponent doesn't switch) and that's only with a pokemon you are supposed to be switching absol in. I don't even have a ''proper'' check/counter to absol (sawk is not a real counter), and trust me that i have never get swept by absol, EVER, and I have finished as #4 on the ladder.

I don't see Duosion broken either. I think is the same discussion as Reuniclus in OU, it destroys stall and blahblahblah... Duosion is powerful when used right, but it has no leftovers, is slow as fuck, and there while is true it can set up on most deffensive mons, you should be using something to counter duosion and every other psychic in the tier. I mean, duosion is not that different to something like SubCM Mesprit or Musharna. It's completely true it has Magic Guard (and to a lesser extent, recover), but its (again) slower, so it's much easier to taunt or Haze. I have used a stall team in PO's NU (I know, its a different meta) and here and i never had special problems with duosion. To be honest, i think that if your stall team cannot deal with duosion, it cannot deal either with any of the other bulky calm minder psychics in the tier (unless you can always manage to have toxic spikes set up and unremoved since turn 1)

@happy endorfins: Hyper Offense don't existing on the tier? Are you serious? Almost every top team I have faced (and mine too by the way) are HO teams, because its what works best on the ladder. Don't misconcept having something like regirock in a team as not being a HO team, because regirock is an offensive mon generally, and i mean, there's no way of checking the birds without resorting to a rock type (or something niche like Luxray), and Regirock not only provides that, but SR support (very important for sweepers) as well as having a quite good (for NU) base 100 attack. Btw, Weather teams are not used that much because they are unreliable for the most part (they are unconsistent ladder teams) and because NU doesn't have many good weather abusers. Maybe if Ludicolo drops in April we will see a change about that.

 

[jake]

Honestly, I've found amazing success pairing SD LO Absol with a bulkier variant of SubCM Mesprit. Mesprit easily sets up on or flat-out kills things that handle Absol (Gurdurr, Weezing, Quagsire who does shit all to Mesprit, Tangela, whatever you guys use to check Absol) and is a very powerful threat in its own right. Absol also helps deal with faster shit that bothers Mesprit although it doesn't handle things like opposing Skuntank too well. Almost every defensive method that people handle Absol (outside of faster Substitute users, really) Mesprit can use to its advantage.

I also sort of want to comment on Duosion: every time I've used it, I just found it... useless. Similar to Floatzel in the respect that it looks excellent on paper but just mediocre in practice. Obviously it handles stall teams better than most but I feel like it's more or less useless when facing most offensive teams and since they compose the majority of the tier...

I really think any lack of success when using weather teams is a fault in teambuilding. Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams have no shortage of abusers here (Gorebyss, Exeggutor...) and should theoretically function effectively in a high-octane, offensive metagame. I have yet to build one myself, but that's because I suck at teambuilding. x)

My Gorebyss problems continue to arise; I have faced a team w/ Rain Dance Damp rock Mesprit. Mesprit U-Turns to Gore, I switch my Scarfer on the Smash, and be surprised to get KO'd by one of its coverage moves. Scarf Haunter/Rotom-S is outsped under rain +2. Thus, the argument of revenge killing Gore does not apply here. Any thoughts regrading how to counter this? Note: This is assuming Mesprit is used as a Rain Dance lead hence no sane player will want to put his TSpiker on the lead position.

This is what I imagine would often come from facing a Rain Dance team. Gorebyss is incredibly powerful under Rain support and still lives through our most powerful priority in Absol's Sucker Punch if it carries White Herb. I mean it still has the fault of underspeeding Rotom-S etc with only the Swift Swim boost, but coupling that with Shell Smash and Surf and all that jazz, one would be hard-pressed to handle it...

 

[Molk]

most things that "check" absol, actually dont check it much at all :/

the only two REAL counters are Tangela 788 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 144 - 169 (43.11% - 50.60%)

and quagsire 394 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (70 Base Power): 132 - 156 (33.50% - 39.59%)

MEANWHILE SOME OF THE OTHER CHECKS EITHER DIE TO +2 SUPERPOWER, OR ARE LEFT NEARLY DEAD after they beat absol

gurdurr takes a ridiuclous amount of damage from a +2 superpower (75.94% - 89.57%)

throh is outright OHKOED by the same attack after rocks

leafeon is 2hkoed by a +2 night slash (OHKOED if its an offensive varient) and fails to OHKO in return iirc

sawk and emboar takes a shitton from +2 sucker punch, and are Koed on the switch by superpower+sucker punch

faster pokemon with substite are easy to predict and night slash into oblivion

and so on? so guys, what have you been using to check absol?

 

[destinyunknown]

most things that "check" absol, actually dont check it much at all :/

the only two REAL counters are Tangela 788 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 144 - 169 (43.11% - 50.60%)

and quagsire 394 Atk vs 295 Def & 394 HP (70 Base Power): 132 - 156 (33.50% - 39.59%)

MEANWHILE SOME OF THE OTHER CHECKS EITHER DIE TO +2 SUPERPOWER, OR ARE LEFT NEARLY DEAD after they beat absol

gurdurr takes a ridiuclous amount of damage from a +2 superpower (75.94% - 89.57%)

throh is outright OHKOED by the same attack after rocks

leafeon is 2hkoed by a +2 night slash (OHKOED if its an offensive varient) and fails to OHKO in return iirc

sawk and emboar takes a shitton from +2 sucker punch, and are Koed on the switch by superpower+sucker punch

faster pokemon with substite are easy to predict and night slash into oblivion

and so on? so guys, what have you been using to check absol?

Wait what? How have you done this calcles? From my experience, (and i use adamant LO absol) i have never dealt more than like ~40% of damage to tangela at +2, and the only time an opposing gurdurr take more than 50% was a superpower crit, and it was still alive and ohko'ed me with drain punch.

Absol needs high rolls on night slash (or a crit) to 2hko leftovers leafeon. And it has wish.

By the way, I have actually used a Rain team on the ladder, and I want to say gorebyss is completely ridiculous under it. It's also not much difficult to get a boost with white herb and the pressure the rain puts on the opponent, and at +6 (+2 spatk) and rain boost to surf, the only hope of the opponent is having priority or trying to ''stall'' the turns of rain to bring the scarfer and kill gorebyss.

 

[Molk]

i will put the rest of my calcs here

the tangela and quagsire calcs are already there

+2 absol night slash vs max/max leafeon (58.38% - 69.16%) guarenteed 2hko after rocks

+2 absol superpower vs standard gurdurr (75.94% - 89.57%) guarenteed 2hko

+2 absol superpower vs standard throh (95.72% - 112.61%) guarenteed OHKO after rocks

+2 absol sucker punch vs min/min leafeon (109.59% - 129.52%) OHKO

+2 absol night slash vs leafeon (96.31% - 113.28%) OHKO after rocks

all of these calcs are with life orb in play

i will link to the calculator used if needed

 

[Smith]

Sure absol is lacking in secure counters, but that doesn't mean he isn't easy to handle by a COMPETENT opponent. You can seriously slap a substitute on any faster mon(of which there are several) and probably handle Absol, it isn't like he's a defensive behemoth under any circumstances. Jynx works, samurott works, braviary works, altaria, monferno, misdreavus, the simis, tauros... he isn't hard to defeat on an offensive team. On a defensive team you should be using tangela and/or quagsire anyway so no worries.

 

[shnen]

Since this is the NU stage 1 thread, I would like to go ahead and congratulate the best and second best player at the end of stage 1.
Good job with all that owning Ice Eyes.

Regarding Absol (and I know this is far from a great solution), would Linoone be a decent way to counter it? You could bring him in on a predicted Sucker Punch and then hit it with Extreme Speed or something. Of course, this just adds to the fact that you're almost always going to be stuck in a prediction battle against Absol...
Personally I'm sticking with Bulk Up Gurdurr to deal with Absol. Bro's strongth, to say the least, and one of the few Pokemon that can tank more than one attack from Absol.

WHAT ABOUT THE SEVENTH BEST PLAYER!!!!;.;

Anyway on topic, I also agree that those calcs seemed odd when you posted them to me last night, perhaps you forgot to factor in eviolite? Anyway I am of the firm opinion that absol is not broken as it IS checked by many things (quagsire,tangela,gurdurr,throh) as well as being hard to set up AND dieing fairly fast. I carry none of the "counters" on my team and have never lost to absol, and i got to 5 with it so it is no glaring weakness. Really, i am of the opinion more people should run jolly lum absol, it sticks around much longer +can set up on much more stuff (think regirock) while eliminating the horrible speed tie element due to everyone and their mother running adamant absol, what koes does it even gain anyway?
Edit: Having done the calcs itself, it appears that molk is kinda right. I got a different result, but it is still a 2hko: 252/0 gurdurr takes 63.1% - 74.3% from +2 adamant LO superpower, factoring in eviolite
Edit 2: woops i forgot to ev it :/ molk is spot on

 

[Molk]

nope, i added gurdurr's defense, and gave it a +1 boost

@shnen, jolly lum absol loses all the Koes vs its "checks"

 

[porcelaininja]

I saw someone (i think he was called inc0gnito) using that Haunter subdisable set, and it was pretty annoying, even more because he was using toxic spikes, and the fact that haunter has 3 immunities. The only thing i don't like about haunter is that, despite his nice resistances to moves like bug or grass, is too frail to take advantage of them :/

Absol is a behemoth, we all know it, but I don't think its broken. It has some hard counters (don't argue against it, it's true) and again, prediction wars are risky. And that's without considering the fact of how difficult is setting up with absol (for example, if you come into CM LO Mesprit, you cannot set up right of the bat without the risk of being KO if the opponent doesn't switch) and that's only with a pokemon you are supposed to be switching absol in. I don't even have a ''proper'' check/counter to absol (sawk is not a real counter), and trust me that i have never get swept by absol, EVER, and I have finished as #4 on the ladder.

I don't see Duosion broken either. I think is the same discussion as Reuniclus in OU, it destroys stall and blahblahblah... Duosion is powerful when used right, but it has no leftovers, is slow as fuck, and there while is true it can set up on most deffensive mons, you should be using something to counter duosion and every other psychic in the tier. I mean, duosion is not that different to something like SubCM Mesprit or Musharna. It's completely true it has Magic Guard (and to a lesser extent, recover), but its (again) slower, so it's much easier to taunt or Haze. I have used a stall team in PO's NU (I know, its a different meta) and here and i never had special problems with duosion. To be honest, i think that if your stall team cannot deal with duosion, it cannot deal either with any of the other bulky calm minder psychics in the tier (unless you can always manage to have toxic spikes set up and unremoved since turn 1)

@happy endorfins: Hyper Offense don't existing on the tier? Are you serious? Almost every top team I have faced (and mine too by the way) are HO teams, because its what works best on the ladder. Don't misconcept having something like regirock in a team as not being a HO team, because regirock is an offensive mon generally, and i mean, there's no way of checking the birds without resorting to a rock type (or something niche like Luxray), and Regirock not only provides that, but SR support (very important for sweepers) as well as having a quite good (for NU) base 100 attack. Btw, Weather teams are not used that much because they are unreliable for the most part (they are unconsistent ladder teams) and because NU doesn't have many good weather abusers. Maybe if Ludicolo drops in April we will see a change about that.

I actually needed a spinblocker on my stall team and for some reason, Missy doesn't really cut it for me. The only other option was to go the opposite route and wanted an offensive spinblocker, thus Haunter. I find LO variants die too quickly, so I tried a SubDisable set and it works perfectly as it forces switches great w/ hazards support! Black Sludge actually replenishes health negating HP loss from Sub in the long run I don't seem to mind the loss in power w/ LO. Recently I have been forced to run ScarfHaunter to outspeed Gore but this is only true on non-Swift Swim sets w/ Rain support from Mesprit as Gore is not revenged kill bar priority +2 under the rain.

Also, MG Kadabra is a pain on stall teams. Sub + 3 Attacks is all it needs to hit everything in the tier. I'm thinking of adding Skuntank on my team to replace Garbodor as my grounded Poison type but then I lose my hazard setter. Garbodor w/ Weak Armor + Normal gem has really worked wonders for me. When Garbodor is really low on health, it usually will go first due to Weak Armor allowing me to choose between Gunk Shot + Explosion the latter dealing heavy damage to anything not Rock/Steel type. The only other viable TSpiker in the tier Whirlipede. I think for stall, you have to build a team around the hazard setter, but that's another topic altogether.

 

[Nubagator]

I made a team based around CB Sawk today, and thought I'd give SubDisable haunter a shot on it. As it turns out Haunter wins games by himself, with no support. he is a god amongst men to say the least. There are so many pokes in the tier that only have one attack to hit him with, and thanks to his high speed stat and black sludge recovery he just lives forever, and can keep coming in and beating pokes 1 v 1. If you haven't tried him you really, really should, he's my new favorite NU mon.

 

[Endorfins]

@happy endorfins: Hyper Offense don't existing on the tier? Are you serious? Almost every top team I have faced (and mine too by the way) are HO teams, because its what works best on the ladder. Don't misconcept having something like regirock in a team as not being a HO team, because regirock is an offensive mon generally, and i mean, there's no way of checking the birds without resorting to a rock type (or something niche like Luxray), and Regirock not only provides that, but SR support (very important for sweepers) as well as having a quite good (for NU) base 100 attack. Btw, Weather teams are not used that much because they are unreliable for the most part (they are unconsistent ladder teams) and because NU doesn't have many good weather abusers. Maybe if Ludicolo drops in April we will see a change about that.

There are various types of Offense teams and there is a difference between them. Hyper Offense is the use of Dual Screens and multiple sweepers that try to break through their respective Counters. Here is the definition of Hyper Offense according to the BW Offense Guide

Hyper offense is a type of offense that focuses almost exclusively on attacking. Hyper offense teams usually utilize a Pokemon that can set up Reflect and Light Screen in conjunction with several setup sweepers with similar counters. These sweepers set up under the protection of Dual Screens and break down their counters through repeated powerful attacks, sacrificing themselves until their counters are defeated and one of them can sweep. Hyper offense teams usually only attack from one side of the attacking spectrum in order to immediately render Pokemon intended to wall attacks on the other side of the spectrum dead weight. For example, a team packed full of physical sweepers immediately renders Blissey useless. Hyper offense teams rarely switch Pokemon, instead relying on the inherent power of their members to weaken counters to the point where they cannot recover enough HP to wall the rest of the team.

I'm bringing this up because, compared to other tiers, NU has almost no Hyper Offense teams. This can also be attributed to the lack of suicide hazard and Screen leads like Azelf but also to the many revenge killers in the tier. Absol is one of the best revenge killers in NU and can revenge basically every weakened sweeper. Weather teams also suffer from Absol's presence as despite how fast they are under Sun/Rain, they will never be able to go before Absol unless they have priority of their own.

I've never seen SubDisable Haunter before in NU but I have used its evolution in OU and it is definitely a powerful tactic, there are so many Pokemon in NU that rely on Normal as a coverage type, (Braviary, Leafeon etc) so I can imagine that it would be extremely easy to completely disable an opponent and get up a free Sub.

 

[marilli]

I thought that Hyper Offense really didn't need dual screens all along. I thought HO is just 'all out offense' that overloads on a defensive core, but with very little bulk / defensive capabilities whatsoever. DS Offense is a subgroup of Hyper Offense, but why bother with semantics when Hyper Offense literally means "offensive in an extreme manner"? Normal-spam would be considered Hyper Offense in my books, and there's a lot of teams that do exactly that. Even if you narrow your definition of HO to DS Offense, Shnen had an extremely successful HO team, and there were other good ones, too.

 

[DTC]

A lot of teams running around the ladder in the past few days have been dual screens + Belly Drum Linnoone teams. It's an incredibly annoying combination, and if Linnoone can setup and you can't appropriately cripple it in time, you're over with.

In these teams, I've noticed 2 pretty unique Pokemon in them: dual screens Ampharos. and dual screens Torterra. Most of the teams I fought utilizing this combination was using dual screens Ampharos, and it caught me off guard the first time. Dual screens Torterra is popular in those teams too, it has access to dual screens + SR; one of the few usable Pokemon in NU that get that combination.

Speaking of Pokemon with the combination of dual screens + SR, Solrock looks really interesting. Its stats and typing are okay, but it has a few nifty moves. Strangely enough it even gets access to Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split. It could also potentially use a Baton Pass set well, but, unfortunately, it can't use Taunt, so it may not be the best choice for a BP team.

 

[Endorfins]

A lot of teams running around the ladder in the past few days have been dual screens + Belly Drum Linnoone teams. It's an incredibly annoying combination, and if Linnoone can setup and you can't appropriately cripple it in time, you're over with.

Linoone is really one of the few Pokes that can safely bypass Absol's revenge killing attempts thanks to Extremespeeds +2 priority, which basically renders any revenge killing attempts useless.

I've also seen few Baton Pass teams on the ladder, however, all of them use Musharna, which after getting a few boosts can tear down whole teams with Stored Power and Hidden Power Fighting along with the Restalk Combo which prevents status and whittling attempts from killing Musharna

 

[Molk]

why are people underestimating zangoose?

people say its outclassed by ursaring which is totally incorrect

zangoose has

1) more initial power due to ability to hold LO

2) more power on its coverage moves

3) quick attack

its pretty dangerous behind screens, and quick attack allows it to bypass absol and such

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

why are people underestimating zangoose?

people say its outclassed by ursaring which is totally incorrect

zangoose has

1) more initial power due to ability to hold LO
If you view the RU analysis you'll notice a set labelled Village Crusher where URsaring does hold a Life Orb, although it is slower than Zangoose.

2) more power on its coverage moves
False, Close Combat and Crunch are the standard coverage moves on Ursaring and are not beaten by Zangoose.
3) quick attack
It does have this, priority is pretty cool.
its pretty dangerous behind screens, and quick attack allows it to bypass absol and such

It pretty much only has priority and higher base speed, as well as less attack and far inferior bulk, so calling it outclassed isn't far from wrong.

 

[Molk]

about the second point, zangoose's night slash and close combat are actually more powerful than ursaring's Non LO close combat and crunch attacks due to zangoose being able to hold LO without scarificing speed.

zangoose isnt outclassed tbh, it does get competition from ursaring but its not outclassed at all


theres also a fourth point

zangoose lasts longer than ursaring during a sweep, ursaring lasts 6 turns max, angoose lasts about ten due to only taking LO recoil, not toxic damage. ursaring having higher bulk it mitigated by the toxic orb its holding

ursaring's +2 close combat vs tangela (34.13% - 40.42%)

zangoose's +2 LO close combat vs tangela (40.72% - 48.20%)

 

[Style_Dota]

HO has been decent when I've used it. The main problem is that there is no Spikes + SR user in the tier, which really hurts HO.

I've had a lot of success with Trick Room on the ladder. Duosion is definitely one of the best OTR users in the tier. The main problem is that there are not too many good TR users, and they all get screwed by Armaldo + Absol (especially Absol).

To be honest, as this stage comes to an end, I think I can safely say that there really wasn't anything that was too broken. Yeah, there were things that sucked (Absol, Gorebyss, Magmortar), but to be honest, they each have things that beat them.

If I were to pick a Pokemon that could be a potential suspect, my only pick would have to MAYBE be Absol, but in the end, I really don't feel that it's that broken

 

[Axa]

If Ursaring isn't holding Life Orb, what is it holding? Either a Choice item, which either gives it enough brute strength that something's going to die, or enough speed to be competent yet still scary with 130 base Atk. That or running Toxic Orb, which just needs 1 turn of waiting around before becoming instantly threatening.

And from that set I assume you're running Return/Night Slash/Close Combat/Quick Attack. Which is, in one way or another, outclassed by Absol, Swellow or Braviary. Night Slash actually just makes Zangoose look bad because the birds hit harder with their STAB moves and Absol has Dark STAB.

Zangoose isn't bad by any means, but it's hard to justify giving up a spot that could be filled by Absol/Birds/Ursaring for it.

 

[Molk]

If Ursaring isn't holding Life Orb, what is it holding? Either a Choice item, which either gives it enough brute strength that something's going to die, or enough speed to be competent yet still scary with 130 base Atk. That or running Toxic Orb, which just needs 1 turn of waiting around before becoming instantly threatening.

And from that set I assume you're running Return/Night Slash/Close Combat/Quick Attack. Which is, in one way or another, outclassed by Absol, Swellow or Braviary. Night Slash actually just makes Zangoose look bad because the birds hit harder with their STAB moves and Absol has Dark STAB.

Zangoose isn't bad by any means, but it's hard to justify giving up a spot that could be filled by Absol/Birds/Ursaring for it.

if ursaring runs any of those items except for toxc orb , it either ends up slower or less powerful than zangoose, with a toxic orb it is prone to being stalled out.

no im actually running a swords dance set, walled by ghosts, but swellow is walled by steels/rocks lol, which are much more common than ghosts and the only real ghosts are misdreavus/haunter. the birds dont have access to close combat, while zangoose has reliable priority to pick of revenge killers and higher speed than absol, who often has to rely on sucker punch, iirc zangoose's return is more powerful than sucker punch

tl:dr

what it has over swellow : reliable way to gfet past things such as regirock

what it has over ursaring: not being on a timer, more power in its close combat/night slash, quick attack

what it has over absol, higher speed, stronger STAB move, reliable priority

 

[Honus]

if ursaring runs any of those items except for toxc orb , it either ends up slower or less powerful than zangoose, with a toxic orb it is prone to being stalled out.

no im actually running a swords dance set, walled by ghosts, but swellow is walled by steels/rocks lol, which are much more common than ghosts and the only real ghosts are misdreavus/haunter. the birds dont have access to close combat, while zangoose has reliable priority to pick of revenge killers and higher speed than absol, who often has to rely on sucker punch, iirc zangoose's return is more powerful than sucker punch

tl:dr

what it has over swellow : reliable way to gfet past things such as regirock

what it has over ursaring: not being on a timer, more power in its close combat/night slash, quick attack

what it has over absol, higher speed, stronger STAB move, reliable priority

Well Zangoose loses to the best Physical wall in the tier, Tangela. Swellow beats it most of the time, Absol can OHKO with +2 Megahorn and Ursaring at least has more power than Zangoose.

 

[Molk]

@karpman, only when ursaring is using facade, ursaring's close combat and crunch are actually weaker than Zangoose's if ursaring wants to abuse quick feet.

btw,

+2 LO zangoose jolly return vs eviolite tangela (52.10% - 61.38%) guarenteed 2hko

.... ouch, tangela still sleep powders in return though, so i see your point

 

[TROP]

Absol can OHKO with +2 Megahorn.

Don't forget Max sp.A LO fire blast!.

 

[Molk]

Don't forget Max sp.A LO fire blast!.

actually, mixed 4 attacks absol is pretty legit, if you invest enough evs for fire blast to OHKO tangela and hp grass to OHKO quagsire, it can imitate mixkrow in the higher tiers.

with 4 evs and a neutral nature, absol can muscle past tangela easily (71.26% - 84.43%)

with 4 evs, hp grass does this much to quagsire (75.13% - 89.34%)

with a rash nature and 4 evs (79.04% - 93.41%) it has a one in three chance to ohko tangela after SR

with a rash nature (97.01% - 114.97%) it OHKOES quagsire after rocks