np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird

[skylight]

While Megahorn misses and that might be deterring, Superpower is worse off for you overall because you lose power, and then there's things like:

252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 199-235 (71.58 - 84.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 286-338 (102.87 - 121.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sure HPump does better against Mushy, but there's very little you can hit with Superpower that HPump doesn't do as much to already (talking common threats that is). Superpower would be okay if you didn't lose attack/defence but I'd take Megahorn's accuracy issues 99% of the time over being unable to stay in versus physical attackers.

 

[Punchshroom]

I agree Megahorn is the better choice overall for Ludicolo and bulky Psychics as well as no stat-drops, but Superpower is still a viable choice for Rott if it wants to bash special walls like Lickilicky, Regice, Lapras or Munchlax that would wall Samurott otherwise while still doing a decent chunk to most of Megahorn's targets (still OHKOing Jynx with a neutral nature iirc).

 

[ryan]

Mixed attackers are definitely really cool in NU, though there aren't many great mixed wallbreakers outside of Samurott and Eelektross. Most of the Pokemon that have the stats to run an effective mixed attacking set don't have either the coverage or the Speed to make it effective. One of the exceptions to this would be Seismitoad which often runs Earthquake over Earth Power, but that's more just to hit Jynx, Roselia, and Regice for good damage.

Another topic I wanted to touch on was hyper offense. Lately in #nu, a lot of people have been trying out stall to see how it would work for them, and it seems to have yielded some mixed results. But hyper offense is still something I haven't seen a lot of despite the presence of great suicide hazards leads such as Custap Golem and Focus Sash Scolipede. Hyper offense also has Gardevoir as a great dual screens user. Weather teams are often very hyper offensive as well. On my new stall team, I had a really great, synergistic team, but my only Water-resists were weak to common coverage moves found on rain sweepers, so I had to change a teamslot to fit something in that could handle rain.

Have you guys tried out hyper offense? If so, what kinds of strategies have you tried—rain, sun, screens, Tailwind, hazard lead with a bunch of stuff that hits hard?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Is it just me, or has sub disable haunter completely disappeared ? I'm really under the impression it just isn't trendy at the moment because it's still an amazing mon. Sure jynx and primeape now speed tie with it but both just prey to win the speed tie as if haunter came in first and has a sub he's sure to come out victorious. Mandibuzz isn't too much of a problem either because haunter can disable it's only attacking move and buzz taunting would mean it will have to take a free sludge bomb which it can't afford to. There's no reason to use sub disable haunter more than before really but the fact it's completely forgotten and no one thinks of it as a threat while teambuilding really.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

I run encore/pursuit/u-turn/sucker punch liepard because it donks most frail psychics/ghosts with setup in nu (haunter being a prime example lol) while being a crazy good answer to any/all setup in general (volt turn in on the setup, clap and nail the switch with pursuit if it's frail/u-turn out if it's bulky).

what I'm basically saying is use momentumpard more, swagpard is shit, thanks

 

[InsaneDragoniteHD]

Unfortunately Eggy still has nothing for Mandibuzz, bar Sleep Powder which can be stopped easily if Eggy was slower. Mixed Samurott however is still a threat, 3 powerful attacks with great coverage and a 120 base power physical move of choice (Megahorn or Superpower) means that almost anything slower than Samurott is at risk, and even then the numerous faster pokemon won't like switching in.

I know how bad mixed Samurott can truly be, especially if they are running a boosting move.
In my early days of NU, I was swept by a Samurott with Swords Dance.

Samurott is still a threat to consider,because of his usable attack and special attack, because you can change up moves on the prediction, doing heavy damage to a lot of mons in the tier. Also, Samurott does destroy Exeggutor pretty much with Megahorn, because Eggy can't take a unboosted Megahorn, and definitely not a +2 one. Samurott also does destroy Jynx completely with Megahorn.(just to include that)

At +2, Samurott can dent a lot of teams, even doing a okay chunk to Alomomola. Still today, I do have some trouble with Samurott, but I normally just predict the switch better than I did then..also know not to let it set up. With Aqua Jet, Samurott can deal out reasonable damage once the opponent's water absorber is gone, doing okay damage to anything that does not resist any of Samurott's moves. Waterfall is also a good option, because of the higher base power, and the flinch rate it gives. So maybe if their water absorber is gone or their status absorbers are gone, you could Thunder Wave a mon and try to paraflinch with Waterfall and T-wave. Might not be too effective, but its fun..lol.

How bout Cradily is this meta ? Is it good ? What sets are best to run on Cradily ?(wanted an interesting discussion about a underused mon in NU xD)

 

[Punchshroom]

When I was talking about Eggy's matchup with Mandibuzz, I did not bring Samurott into the picture at all, seeing as how a LO Ice Beam or unboosted Megahorn demolishes Eggy.

As for Cradily, I'm not too sold. You resist so little in exchange for so many relevant weaknesses to Ice, Fighting and Bug. That alone hinders the potential of bulky boosting sets, as they usually find themselves under too much pressure before they can get going. RestTalk sets are impervious to status that would otherwise destroy other Cradily sets, but they have poor mono-coverage. The support set is nice in being a Rock-type that can heal, but its lack of Flying resistance means there is little point in trying to outlast Brave Birders, to the point where I'd consider stuff like Solrock or freaking Regenerator Corsola as Normal+Flying resists with recovery. I do notice the potential in its good dual STABs, so perhaps a Swords Dance set with dual STABs and Recover/EQ may be able to keep up with the offensive pace of the meta, who knows?

 

[DTC]

Is it just me, or has sub disable haunter completely disappeared ? I'm really under the impression it just isn't trendy at the moment because it's still an amazing mon. Sure jynx and primeape now speed tie with it but both just prey to win the speed tie as if haunter came in first and has a sub he's sure to come out victorious. Mandibuzz isn't too much of a problem either because haunter can disable it's only attacking move and buzz taunting would mean it will have to take a free sludge bomb which it can't afford to. There's no reason to use sub disable haunter more than before really but the fact it's completely forgotten and no one thinks of it as a threat while teambuilding really.

We had a pretty good discussion a few pages back about why SubDisable Haunter isn't that amazing. It's very prediction reliant and honestly can't shut down that much (stuff like Sawk can just KO Haunter with Struggle =/, Gurdurr can predict the Disable and Mach Punch, etc.). SubDisable Haunter is one of those sets that is absolutely amazing when executed correctly, but that doesn't always happen. I personally would rather use Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb / Thunderbolt / Destiny Bond @ Life Orb. The power boost from Life Orb is very important because if Haunter doesn't kill something, it's probably gonna die. Destiny Bond is a great way to kill stuff like Skuntank, and works especially well with Haunter's Toxic immunity.

 

[Punchshroom]

Is it just me, or has sub disable haunter completely disappeared ? I'm really under the impression it just isn't trendy at the moment because it's still an amazing mon. Sure jynx and primeape now speed tie with it but both just prey to win the speed tie as if haunter came in first and has a sub he's sure to come out victorious. Mandibuzz isn't too much of a problem either because haunter can disable it's only attacking move and buzz taunting would mean it will have to take a free sludge bomb which it can't afford to. There's no reason to use sub disable haunter more than before really but the fact it's completely forgotten and no one thinks of it as a threat while teambuilding really.

I think SubDisable Haunter has fallen from grace is because of how predictable it is, especially when priority is involved: the likes of Gurdurr and Kangaskhan can Mach Punch/Sucker Punch (as they fail) before you disable their only effective move. Getting around this lock can be pretty damn easy, and while Haunter has the speed to pull it off, it certainly doesn't have the bulk, not even close to Missy (now that would be annoying), since a slip-up is fatal.

Even then, maybe it's not so much that Disable's popularity dropped, but options like Hidden Power Ground, Thunderbolt, Trick and Destiny Bond seem more appealing to users.

Edit: Dammit ninja DTC

 

[Sweet Jesus]

@DTC and @Punchshroom, I kind of have to disagree with both of you. First off punchshroom, gurdurr is much less popular (and good) than it once was (I really don't get why it's that high in viability ranking) So that's not something new that makes it less effective it's actually less common then when sub disable haunter was haunter's main set. While they two can play around haunter's disable, haunter can very well just sub again and take absolutely nothing from sucker punch or mach punch (and he can even disable sucker punch after if you're cocky) Since you only have to guess once right through all the subs you can summon and kanga/gurdurr have to guess right everytime so you clearly have the advantage there.

As for DTC, I disagree about if haunter doesn't kill something it's probably going to die, sub let's it play much safer and live much longer and since haunter causes a lot of switches (in this hazard infested meta) I think it really pulls off a nice niche especially since he doesn't take much at all from hazards himself and Life orb over back sludge somewhat kills off that nice advantage in long switch battles. As for destiny bond, it seems to suffer more about having more mons on the speed tie than sub disable.

Oh and sawk won't KO with struggle, haunter is faster and will just kill it off after it takes huge recoil just to break a sub.

Btw I say this after having tested sub disable haunter and it really does do some nice job.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm not denying SubDisable Haunter's viability, but it seems you need to be on constant edge when you use this set: Do you Disable after the Sub, or do you Sub again predicting ineffective priority or a switch? I think people prefer Trick or Destiny Bond because they can do more damage/devastate an opponent with the single correct prediction you make.

 

[vilepersian]

I think mixed Eelektross is very very rare.
It is a hard pokemon to face becauseit can have either special or physical attacks, so perhaps you switch in a special wall like Lickylicky thinking it is an Eelektross with volt switch, giga drain and flamethrower, and that Eelektross ends up being a physical attacker with drain punch.

But very rarely it has both special and physical attacks.

My team has a relicanth, I use it for stealth rocks, killing birds, killing the hurting the slow rock, ground and fire stealth rock pokemon like Golem, probo or torkoal, and damaging the normal types that get their attacks boosted by guts, it can kill armaldo with one head smash.
It is a matter of being wise switching in in and out. If Jynx doesnt have energy ball it can handle her.

 

[Annoyer]

Relicanth can't handle Jynx whatsoever even if it doesn't have Energy Ball.
the LO set OHKOs it - 252 SpAtk Life Orb Jynx Focus Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Relicanth: 109.41% - 129.46%
and the Scarf set 2HKOs it - 252 SpAtk Jynx Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Relicanth: 47.52% - 55.94%

However, I've tried out Relicanth ever since Ashley posted that and its actually really fun. 2HKOing Alomomola with CB Head Smash is really cool and its a great offensive check to stuff like Kanga, Regirock, or Braviary while hitting insanely hard. It works pretty well with Twave support but I usually just use it as a wallbreaker (hell it 2hkos max hp toad) which is really the only reason to use it instead of Carracosta. The CB set is really the only set to use because the defensive set and Rock Polish sets are both outclassed by Carracosta and by a pretty large margin at that. Another cool mon I have used recently was Beheeyem, specifically the Nasty Plot and Trick Room set. Its a really cool fun mon and although Musharna is a lot bulkier, Beheeyem has Analytic to wreck anything that tries switching in on it (analytic works even on switches !!) and is fun as hell to use when it sets up. It functions likes OTR Cofag in upper tiers but without the great typing or defensive stats but boasts a lot more power. id recommend to try it out and if you use it on dual screens, it can set up a lot more safely and effectively.

 

[Pancham]

Have you guys tried out hyper offense? If so, what kinds of strategies have you tried—rain, sun, screens, Tailwind, hazard lead with a bunch of stuff that hits hard?

I have been using Rain Dance since I started playing NU, and although, in this meta, Rain isn't as strong as it used to be, with Kanga and Metang giving extra support for certain mons, namely Jynx, Rain is still pretty strong. Ludicolo 2HKOs most of the current meta, while outspeeding almost everything that's not scarfed (under rain). Not to mention Seismitoad is a great answer to mons like Jynx, who can switch in against Ludi and not die, due to the HP gain from Dry Skin under rain. I also enjoy using mix Samurott in rain with Splash Plate, it's a great bluff. I recently switched Aqua Jet out for Megahorn; however, I believe I might switch back to Aqua Jet, just because priority is kind of amazing. My team is based off two rain cores, Samurott + Ludicolo offensively and Seismitoad + Rotom-s defensively.

Some mons I currently have trouble with in NU with my current team are Jynx, Articuno, Regice, Cradily, Kangaskahn, Lickilicky, and a few more special tanks/walls that can take Hydro Pumps under rain.

 

[jake]

@DTC and @Punchshroom, I kind of have to disagree with both of you. First off punchshroom, gurdurr is much less popular (and good) than it once was (I really don't get why it's that high in viability ranking) So that's not something new that makes it less effective it's actually less common then when sub disable haunter was haunter's main set. While they two can play around haunter's disable, haunter can very well just sub again and take absolutely nothing from sucker punch or mach punch (and he can even disable sucker punch after if you're cocky) Since you only have to guess once right through all the subs you can summon and kanga/gurdurr have to guess right everytime so you clearly have the advantage there.

just wanted to point out about gurdurr; it's actually not "good", it's great. i don't get why you think it's bad, considering that it beats 5/7 of the S-tier mons 1v1 (the two exceptions being musharna ofc and samurott, who doesn't really want to switch in either). iron fist 4 atks is easily the best set - bulk up is mediocre at best - and one of the best bulky pivots imo especially when you have spikes or tspikes to threaten musharna, and you have something like mandibuzz to fall back on. i mean, you ohko jynx after sr + one round of recoil with iron fist mach punch, you can switch in on kanga and drain punch all your health back... honestly, the only pokemon in all of s-a rank that can reliably switch in on it without risk of getting owned are like musharna, garbodor, misdreavus, and phys def eggy / phys def golurk (if that exists?). the only pokemon that can outright ohko it in those tiers are LO jynx, offensive exeggutor, cb braviary, and statused swellow.. none of whom want to really risk switching in.

it's well deserving of a high rank, really.

 

[Lasagne]

I was actually considering trying out Iron Fist Gurdurr soon, since I've only really seen Guts variations. I just thought it wasn't as good as its OU conterpart in Conkeldurr since I never saw anyone using it or even discussing it in #neverused. I'll probably build a team with it soon tbh.
Short post cos I'm tired so murrrrrrr

 

[TM Rock Polish]

If anything deserves to be suspected, it's Liepard. That thing is a menace. I've lost so many games because of Swagger/Twave/Foul Play hax, all because of that stupid cat. It defines the term Hax God. With Prankster, pretty much nothing outspeeds it, and with a sub, you might as well quit (I did.) NU just isn't fun with Prankster Liepard ruining all of my teams. You want to phaze it? Nope, prankster taunt. Have a Ground Type? Swagger. Like seriously, wtf.

 

[HispanicPanic]

If anything deserves to be suspected, it's Liepard. That thing is a menace. I've lost so many games because of Swagger/Twave/Foul Play hax, all because of that stupid cat. It defines the term Hax God. With Prankster, pretty much nothing outspeeds it, and with a sub, you might as well quit (I did.) NU just isn't fun with Prankster Liepard ruining all of my teams. You want to phaze it? Nope, prankster taunt. Have a Ground Type? Swagger. Like seriously, wtf.

It really doesn't deserve to be suspected at all. Physical walls like alomomola, bastiodon, or probopass, won't be broken down by confusion damage and don't take much from foul play. Anything with own tempo, although not too common, is immune to swagger. Lickilicky with own tempo can even heal bell paralysis once Liepard is out of the way. Also, lum berry kinda stops Liepard in its tracks. Liepard is just too inconsistent with swagplay to be considered reliable and suspected. This has been discussed in quite a few threads already.

 

[vilepersian]

Has copycat + roar ever been suspect? it forces you to have protect or a priority move in a pokemon faster than riolu just in case. if you don't have it probably you will be hopeless.

 

[TM Rock Polish]

Has copycat + roar ever been suspect? it forces you to have protect or a priority move in a pokemon faster than riolu just in case. if you don't have it probably you will be hopeless.

It is immensely hard to get Riolu in safely with rocks down, against a Pokemon that can't KO it. So no, it's not broken. Besides, Liepard hard counters it.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Has copycat + roar ever been suspect? it forces you to have protect or a priority move in a pokemon faster than riolu just in case. if you don't have it probably you will be hopeless.

The mons that have priority and are faster than riolu are pretty common to see though like Kangskhan, Skuntank, Zangoose, Swellow, etc. Its base speed is 60. It's not too difficult to find something with priority that's also faster than it. Also, there are plenty of walls that commonly use protect like Alomomola and Lickilicky for example. Not to mention that if you can status with burn or toxic riolu before if starts shuffling, you can effectively shut it down before it can kill your team. There's plenty of ways to stop it, so there is no reason to suspect it.

 

[Othesemo]

Has copycat + roar ever been suspect? it forces you to have protect or a priority move in a pokemon faster than riolu just in case. if you don't have it probably you will be hopeless.

Meh. There are plenty of mons that you're 'forced' to run an answer to (Sawk, Jynx, etcetera). Their existence is the necessary precursor to there being a metagame at all- the restrictions that they implement on team building are what makes success in team building possible. Riolu 'forcing' you to run priority is exactly as problematic as Sawk 'forcing' you to run a fighting check, or mons like Jynx 'forcing' you to run a status absorber- which is to say, it isn't problematic at all, and is rather symptomatic of a healthy metagame.

 

[Aasgier]

Don't forget Riolu commonly runs Substitute, making Alomomola/Lickilicky quite shaky as it just Subs as they click Protect.

 

[Pancham]

Sure, having pokemon with faster priority, and Protect, help against Copycat + Roar Riolu; however, You forget that Riolu also has Substitute, and you'll have to rely on the sheer luck of Roar bringing those pokemon out. Not to mention, like Aasgier already pointed out, Riolu can Substitute as they Protect, or if Substitute is already up, the can even Roar theProtect in order to be able to Copycat that the following turn, forcing you to waste another turn to Protect. However, if you do that, they could also stall your protect PP out by continuing to Roar. Sure, there are "counters" to Riolu, but a smart Riolu player will see past said "counters," and play around them.

 

[Aasgier]

There are only several things that really counter Riolu. You not only need to calculate in Substitute/Protect on Riolu, but Drain Punch as well (which Riolu could run to deal with Cradily, Bastiodon, Probopass and other Magic Coat users.

These are:
- Prankster, preferably with moves like Encore.
- Soundproof + no fighting weakness (Electrode, Mr. Mime)
- Suction Cups + no Fighting weakness (Octillery)
- Magic Coat + reliable recovery + resisting Fighting.

Edit: And Natu.