np: NU Stage 10 - Blackbird

[Othesemo]

Sure, having pokemon with faster priority, and Protect, help against Copycat + Roar Riolu; however, You forget that Riolu also has Substitute, and you'll have to rely on the sheer luck of Roar bringing those pokemon out. Not to mention, like Aasgier already pointed out, Riolu can Substitute as they Protect, or if Substitute is already up, the can even Roar theProtect in order to be able to Copycat that the following turn, forcing you to waste another turn to Protect. However, if you do that, they could also stall your protect PP out by continuing to Roar. Sure, there are "counters" to Riolu, but a smart Riolu player will see past said "counters," and play around them.

No doubt. Such is the beauty of competition. If we assume that Sawk always picks the right coverage move, then he's likely out of the tier in a month. Of course, while Sawk has Musharna and Missy, Riolu has pretty much everything with access to priority and more than 60 speed. And pretty much any status, but that's easier to play around (bringing him in on a KO/Explosion, Sub, T-Spikes absorber).

Is it a threat? Sure. But it's definitely not something that needs to be discussed as a potential suspect.

 

[Cherub Agent]

You know what I've not heard a lot of these days? One of the nastiest, most vicious Pokemon that ever graced NU has somehow stepped down from the spotlight, and people just don't seem to be using it anymore. I believe that people think that Zangoose is too slow for this meta because of all those new drops, and the rise of the standard speed tier to beat, which Zangoose just misses out on. My personal opinion is that this is what I like to call "paper waste" (something that may be true on paper but not in practise). People just need to adapt, and mabye try a slightly different Zangoose set to the one they used in past stages. Only like 6.5% of Zangoose are running an Adamant nature nowadays, and I don't understand why. Think about it. Zangoose is outsped by Jynx, Primeape, Scolipede, Charizard... Pokemon that it would definetly enjoy having a more powerful Quick Attack against.

Jynx is guaranteed to be OHKOd by Quick Attack after Stealth Rock with an Adamant nature, and it still has a very solid chance of KOing after just a layer of Spikes or Life Orb recoil. Primeape is a Pokemon that is constantly weaving in and out with U-Turn, and wearing itself down by Spikes (which imo should ALWAYS accompany Zangoose, and they're so easy to get up and keep up in this meta). An Adamant Quick Attack does between 82-97% to Scarfape after a Defense drop; pretty much a guaranteed OHKO after just one switchin to Spikes and Stealth Rock. Primeape is also easy enough to force out with something like Misdreavus and force it to eat more hazard damage to get it into Zangooe's killing range. Charizard is another Pokemon that Zangoose can prey upon: it's going down to Quick Attack after Stealth Rock and a round of Life Orb recoil. Scolipede is a bit trickier since it's not quite as frail and has a bulky set that can really annoy Zangoose, but most are used up early game, and Zangoose can still manage up to 50% on it with Quick Attack.

Of course, that's not even touching upon the fact that Adamant Zangoose gets the 2HKO on absolutely every single physical wall in the tier with the exception of Metang without entry hazards. If you add entry hazards to the mix and consider that they my be switching in on attack, to be followed up with Facade, things start to get ugly. The amount of sheer power Zangoose has behind it is incredible. We are talking about a Pokemon with the equivalent of 541 Attack, with a 140 base power STAB move, with a priority move for faster threats and a 120 BP move for the Pokemon that resists its STAB. Misdreavus is walled by Zangoose if it doesn't run Foul Play, and Golurk, well, it can come in on 3 of Zangoose's moves, but takes 77-90% from Night slash if it runs 172 HP, which is easily mitigated with a few hazards or other previous damage. Haunter though is definetly still one of the best offensive checks to Zangoose :/. Adamant Zangoose still outspeeds the things it needs to (Ludicolo, Samurott, most Sawk) and, if partnered with Eelektross (which really is an amazing partner for it, as not only does it nigh guarantee the activation of Zangoose's Toxic Orb with its slow U-Turn/Volt Switch, it also punches holes in walls to the extent that Zangoose can then OHKO them, something that it really appreciates, as it doesn't like going up against a healthy wall one on one, as it then has to eat an attack). Probopass is in a similar boat: also having a very slow free sitchin move for Zangoose, but instead of softening down other walls Zangoose can then pick off it can directly trap and kill off Metang: Zangoose's only counter.

Overall, I'm glad I tried Zangoose again, as it's usage has plummeted since its glory days, but with a little tweak and a nice core to support it (I use Scolipede and Eelektross) Mangoose will not let you down. (Also try Zangoose is RU, it's even better than there than here. RU <3)

 

[InsaneDragoniteHD]

Don't forget Riolu commonly runs Substitute, making Alomomola/Lickilicky quite shaky as it just Subs as they click Protect.

Riolu is shut down by pokemon that are faster than it, because they can use Sucker Punch and trap Riolu into a chain of Sucker Punches, meaning that the opponent or you who are running Riolu will have to switch out. Riolu can be hard to deal with sometimes,(I've lost to a team like that, so I know) but teams that involve phazing with him can easily be stopped by KOing their hazard setter or if you prevent them from setting up rocks, a pokemon with levitate will help, as it takes nothing from spikes. But the main thing is to keep the hazards off the field, so that they cannot phaze you out. While Riolu is a good phazing pokemon, its not too strong and doesn't have the best defenses, allowing it to be easily taken down.

Liepard does not deserve a suspect test really, because its easily countered by several pokemon, and all you have to do is break through the confusion. Pokemon that harness special moves or are special attackers take nothing from a foul play and also can hit back hard because Liepard does not have the best defense in the world. Probopass has been a good pokemon to take on Liepard with in my experience, because he takes nothing from a Foul Play and can deal a good damage chunk back with any of its respective moves. Also, if Liepard were ever banned, Murkrow could run the exact same set, meaning you guys would want Murkrow banned.

Speaking of Probo, how good is specs Probo ?
I've seen it in battles on youtube, and I was just wondering if its worth using on Probo.

 

[Othesemo]

Riolu is shut down by pokemon that are faster than it, because they can use Sucker Punch and trap Riolu into a chain of Sucker Punches, meaning that the opponent or you who are running Riolu will have to switch out.

Awfully shaky check there, since Riolu can always roar manually.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Specs Probopass probably wouldn't be that great considering it only has 75 SpA, and its stabs don't have the greatest coverage. Granted, Electrode and Zebstrika have 80 base SpA and can pull off viable specs sets but only because of how fast they are in comparison to the rest of the meta. Although Probopass has bulk and typing over the other mons, I just mentioned. Giving it magnet pull to trap steel types for things that struggle with them like Jynx could work really well though.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Awfully shaky check there, since Riolu can always roar manually.

The main sucker punchers (kangaskan, skuntank) have two ways of dealing with riolu (kanga, fakeout+double edge, skuntank taunt)

While Riolu is a good phazing pokemon, its not too strong and doesn't have the best defenses, allowing it to be easily taken down.

0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Riolu: 168-198 (59.15 - 69.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Riolu: 248-294 (87.32 - 103.52%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I faced Specially defensive Riolu yesterday with my musharna, and after I did 66%, I was like Fuuuuuuuu.
And BU braviary isn't even guarenteed to kill after rocks. Yeah it's a pretty good chance, but just to show that riolu can take some pretty strong supereffective hits. Then consider alot of pokes have either less power than these pokes or nonsupereffective moves, and riolu is on a rampage. Yeah, getting rid of hazards is ideal, but considering maybe 1/10 teams or so carry a rapid spinner, plus the fact that it isn't that difficult to get a S.R up, or at least 1-2 layers spikes from scolipede because of speed/bulk/even a focus sash, and now you are even more pressured to make sure that riolu doesn't come in for free and make sure your protect/ fast priority user isn't dead (most teams carry one, very few carry 2 or more). Riolu is truly a boss, and I think it is more annoying and would rather have that suspected than liepard (not that I believe there should be a test).

 

[Aasgier]

Skuntank's Taunt can fail too.

Protect the Taunt, then Copycat the Taunt back.

 

[termi]

Skuntank's Taunt can fail too.

Protect the Taunt, then Copycat the Taunt back.

Or predict the Taunt and Copycat anyway. It's a 50/50 thing, really.

 

[InsaneDragoniteHD]

Awfully shaky check there, since Riolu can always roar manually.

FOrgot about that yeah for a sec yeah.

But honestly, Riolu isn't a bad mon,and its definitely worse than Liepard in terms of annoyance. Also Riolu is stricted to one set mainly,(I think) meaning that you can't really do much with Riolu sadly enough.

 

[Punchshroom]

But honestly, Riolu isn't a bad mon, but not really necessarily a good one.

....What did you say?

Death threats aside, Riolu is the extreme definition of hit or miss: it needs quite a bit of setup and the right opportunity to start Roaring (fortunately at least for me, this is more frequent than you'd think), and it needs to play around priority users if they haven't been rid off / paralyzed yet; on the other hand, many teams are pretty Riolu weak as they get continuosly shredded by the hazards and there is little / nothing the victim can really do about it. Classic Riolu stuff really.

 

[DTC]

Shifting away from the Riolu discussion...

Have any of you tried specially defensive Musharna. Just from sheer bulk alone she can counter most of the special attackers in NU.

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 138-164 (31.87 - 37.87%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 185-218 (42.72 - 50.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 168-199 (38.79 - 45.95%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 163-193 (37.64 - 44.57%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 180-212 (41.57 - 48.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This Musharna spread seems pretty awesome when paired with a solid physical wall such as Regirock. There is not much that can break through the core, but there is one huge threat that is a huge deterrent from using a specially defensive spread on this Pokemon: Choice Band Sawk. I rely on Musharna a lot to beat Sawk, and Choice Band Sawk 2HKO's specially defensive Musharna with Close Combat. NU doesn't have many other solid Sawk answers, so you will be in for some trouble. I'd almost say it isn't worth it to use either of these just because of the presence of Choice Band Sawk. I would also not recommend using a specially defensive spread on a Calm Mind set, and only the pivot set, but most people use pivot Musharna these days anyways.

 

[skylight]

I've actually been using it versus teams where I have a Charizard weakness and have no other way to get around it. I think it's pretty nice to add onto a team and with the added bonus of Rocky Helmet it kind of makes up for losing out physical bulk if you can slowly wear down stuff like Sawk. Although you could always add in more defensive EVs so it lives the 2HKO and can Moonlight or OHKO the weakened Sawk. I use Rocky Helmet Musharna 99% of the time (and have ever since Cinccino was around, and I still think it's useful now) and I think it actually fits better on a specially defensive set simply for this purpose. I actually really love all that Musharna is capable of in NU. It's CM set is still good if you're unprepared and can become a bitch to take down, pivot is useful and even with Trick Room (for supporting TR teams) it's amazing. It's pretty much one of my go-to mons in NU for the most part since it can do so much and can fit on so many different teams.

 

[Diatom]

The problem IMO with SpD Musharna is the existance of Lickilicky. If I want a dedicated special wall, I'd much rather go with Lickilicky, who can still tank special attacks very well. Since special fighting moves are so rare in NU nowadays, I feel that Lickilicky is just the better special wall right now. Here's examples of some pokemon that Lickilicky can take that Mushy can't

Haunter

While SpD Musharna may be able to take Haunter's attack as DTC showed, with rocks up (and they are very easy to keep up in NU mind you), you have this calc:

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 180-212 (41.57 - 48.96%) -- 24.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While it can technically tank that, you're still losing to a mon that SpD Musharna is supposed to best 25% of the time, and that's assuming Haunter never gets an SpD drop with Shadow Ball, meaning Musharna cannot indefinitely stall out Haunter. Lickilicky on the other hand has this calc:

252 SpA Haunter Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 106-126 (25 - 29.71%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Lickilicky can easily tank those hits all day.

Samurott

The problem Musharna has with Samurott is that Samurott will always 2HKO Musharna with Megahorn, even if the Samurott has no attack EVs

0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Musharna: 252-299 (58.19 - 69.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Musharna may be able to take on varients lacking Megahorn, from my NU laddering experiences, Megahorn is present on the vast majority of Samurotts, even special Samurotts from what I've seen, usually over Aqua Jet, since Aqua Jet is severely lacking in power. Meanwhile:

0 Atk Life Orb Samurott Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 234-276 (55.18 - 65.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While this may seem like a lot, one has to take into account the fact that Superpower lowers attack, meaning that Lickilicky will sometimes be able to get off a Wishtect cycle and force Samurott out. I also rarely ever see superpower on special Samurott, and frankly it doesn't really have room for it IMO, and thus Lickilicky can usually take on Samurott quite well.

Overall, I simply find Lickilicky to be the better special wall in NU over Mushrana. That's not to say that SpD Musharna is bad, because it isn't, but I just find Lickilicky to be more reliable in tanking hits repeatedly, not to mention that it has more utility with the ability to Wishpass. Also, I don't really see the point of SpD Musharna quite as much, as you can simply boost your SpD with Calm Mind if you're already in, while still retaining good physical defense. Also, there's this obvious problem with SpD Mushy:

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Musharna: 197-232 (45.49 - 53.57%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Primeape U-turn vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Musharna: 148-176 (34.18 - 40.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah, SpD Musharna can't reliably beat the two best fighting-types in the tier, which is a huge problem, as that should be part of Musharna's job as a bulky psychic-type. Overall, I'd prefer to stick with Lickilicky for a special wall.[/hide]

 

[JCM.]

to be deleted

 

[Infernis]

I don't really like using Jynx. It's really easy to beat an opponent's Jynx offensively, and it's often too slow when I need something fast, or doesn't hit hard enough when I need it to. I keep trying to slap Jynx onto some HO teams for the playstyle of the week challenge, but I just can't get it to jive. On the other hand, I would throw Liepard into a trash compactor without hesitation. Riolu would be more annoying if it weren't painfully obvious when a team is built around it. You don't really need a lot to beat it. Toxic spikes, some faster priority, or even just Protect to screw it up while it dies from passive damage.

I really like NU other than Liepard.

 

[Othesemo]

well i've been wanting to make this post after i heard that some of my best friends and some of the best nu players to take a break from pokemon, more specifically NU, because the metagame isn't enjoyable enough. when i first heard that, i was surprised because it was something unexpected, because we like just finished suspect testing. of course i thought that before i really got back to laddering in nu (i took a long break too due to being busy with suspect laddering in various other tiers) and then it hit me. in this post, i'll show you that this isn't a really great meta, and isn't as good as people show it to be.


Variety: there's like 3 or 4 kinds of ''good'' playstyles, one kind of stall, and the rest are a bunch of balanced teams that are boring and bad. a good meta should encourage players to win and have fun, and seriously, teams now are: Jynx / Jynx check | counter / Check | Counter to Jynx check | counter. now don't look at this the wrong way, i'm not saying that Jynx is broken, but most teams are using it, and it doesn't help increase variety.

I dunno, the great thing about Jynx is how many otherwise good mons can sort of passively deal with it. Personally, I'm already fond of pulling my scarfers from the >95 Speed pool of mons, so revenge killing is hardly an issue. Then there's priority- Kangaskhan is an all around solid pokemon, Metang is defensible as a tank on its own merits and can beat pretty much any Jynx, and stuff like Gurdurr can snipe it with Mach Punch or similar. Then there're defensive checks- a lot of Jynx only run 1 or 2 attacks, which means that most pink blobs can deal with her. Personally, I'm fond of Miltank, but Lickilicky is pretty good too. It's also worth mentioning that scarf Jynx is pretty damn easy to play around, and that accounts for ~30% of them.

Jynx is a threat that I try to keep in mind while team building, but it's never impressed me to the degree that it seems to have impressed you. I've tried and fought against all of its main sets- it's a damn good pokemon, but I don't think that it's anymore centralizing than the other top 5 or so mons (I mean the actual top 5 threats, not Armaldo or whatever the fuck).

on the other hand, we have another thing: riolu. this thing may need to be suspected because it's seriously easy to win games with because there are not many pokemon that have faster priority than riolu, and even then, it can restart its chain since it is decently bulky thanks to eviolite. all you need is hazards support and a spinblocker and you can literally win games. if your chain gets interrupted well the opponent's team will be pretty decimated thanks to hazards.

Apart from Riolu being far easier to check than Jynx- basically, any priority faster than Gurdurr's will do the trick, which you should probably be carrying anyways- it's not exactly a win condition all on its lonesome. I already try to avoid making teams with more than 1 hazards weak mon just because of how much NU spinners suck, and even in games where Riolu executes its entire chain, I've generally found it possible, if challenging, to make a comeback. I've probably been on the receiving end of the full Riolu treatment four or five times, and I've proceeded to lose the game once. I can't say if my opponents were using it to its fullest extent, but the fact remains that a worn down, well built team can still function. Besides, if your team doesn't carry priority at all, you're going to have a tough time with plenty of other, more common mons (like Jynx!), even without taking Riolu into consideration.

Luck: liepard and murkrow (mostly the former) fall into this category as well, since twave + swagger doesn't give the opponent many opportunities to hit. like i previously said it's really luck-based and shouldn't be a part of a desirable metagame.

Personally, I'm a big fan of Mandibuzz, and she's been on three of my last five team. Care to guess how many games I've lost to SwagPlay? The end result is almost invariably a highly unpleasant series of ~20 turns, generally terminating with a dead cat and a paralyzed bird. While Liepard is a pain in the ass, and anyone who uses the SwagPlay set is a degenerate trainer, it's not particularly difficult to prepare for in teambuilding. If you're really paranoid, run Lum Golem or something.

anyways that's my bitching about the metagame. what are your thoughts on this?

I think that you're overstating the prevalence- and power- of all three of the mons you mentioned.

 

[ryan]

Variety: there's like 3 or 4 kinds of ''good'' playstyles, one kind of stall, and the rest are a bunch of balanced teams that are boring and bad. a good meta should encourage players to win and have fun, and seriously, teams now are: Jynx / Jynx check | counter / Check | Counter to Jynx check | counter. now don't look at this the wrong way, i'm not saying that Jynx is broken, but most teams are using it, and it doesn't help increase variety.

I know we talked about this briefly on IRC, but I wanted to bring this up here in the thread. What you just described sounds to me like a naturally effective core, not every team in the metagame. Jynx is on probably around half of my teams because it's a really effective Scarfer, but that's about it to me. It makes a good revenge killer because of its great Speed and coverage, and for the same reason, it's also an effective late-game cleaner. Life Orb Jynx is really dangerous, but it's also really difficult to play with it. We've already covered the reasons for this in the suspect threads; it's really easy to wear down because of its susceptibility to every type of hazard and its nearly-non-existent physical defense. Its special defense isn't great either, though it's certainly a lot less awful. Probably the worst part about this argument is that it doesn't really accurately represent the metagame at all. Only on two or three of my teams do I have a defensive check to Jynx. Most of my other teams are either offensive in nature or just naturally have other ways to handle it. Obviously we want to play in a metagame where a lot of different Pokemon are viable, but there's a difference between something being over-centralizing and the metagame naturally being more favorable towards certain Pokemon. For example, offensive Grass-types are risky to play with because of the dominance of Scarf Jynx, Scolipede, Skuntank, Mandibuzz, Braviary, etc. Almost every team packs multiple ways of handling them inherently without thinking "huh, I guess I'm covered in terms of Serperior and Simisage." This is a natural part of any Pokemon metagame.

Skill:

i can seriously go parade with liepard or murkrow (or hell even both) and win games. stuff like the OHKO clause and Moody clause have been banned because they could make a beginner who has no knowledge whatsoever of the game win vs actually good players.

on the other hand, we have another thing: riolu. this thing may need to be suspected because it's seriously easy to win games with because there are not many pokemon that have faster priority than riolu, and even then, it can restart its chain since it is decently bulky thanks to eviolite. all you need is hazards support and a spinblocker and you can literally win games. if your chain gets interrupted well the opponent's team will be pretty decimated thanks to hazards.

Luck: liepard and murkrow (mostly the former) fall into this category as well, since twave + swagger doesn't give the opponent many opportunities to hit. like i previously said it's really luck-based and shouldn't be a part of a desirable metagame.

If your team has absolutely no answers to Riolu, you're probably using a fairly poorly built team. Despite its general rarity in the metagame, it's still a really effective strategy that you should prepare for before finishing with your team. It's not like you're being forced to use bad Pokemon or bad moves in order to beat it either; priority is really good to have on any type of team, and I can't think of the last time I built a team without it. Offensive teams have priority attacks, while defensive teams have the occasional priority attack (Metang's Bullet Punch, Piloswine's Ice Shard), as well as moves such as Protect and even the rare Magic Coat.

On Liepard, Murkrow, and whatever other ParaFusion shit you can think of: you compare them to OHKO Clause and Moody Clause. However, this strategy is nothing like Moody Clause or OHKO Clause, really. I can see some kind of comparison being drawn between OHKO Clause and ParaFusion, but they are still very different from each other. On one hand, you have a poor coin-flip strategy that only two Pokemon can really utilize to the fullest extent. This strategy takes multiple turns of build-up before you can really get the ball rolling, and you have to hope that the opponent doesn't break through or have some sort of answer already prepared for it. On the other hand, you have something that a good number of Pokemon have access to. On top of the issue of accessibility, OHKO moves have no checks or counters. It's a complete roulette with these moves, and there's no way to avoid them short of hoping that the RNG doesn't want to fuck you over. As for Moody Clause, you fail to take into account that Moody is a completely passive ability, and there's little to nothing you can do to stop it once the opponent has gotten the right boosts. With ParaFusion, you have to use turns to confuse and paralyze the opponent—turns that could be spent doing something to help bring you closer to your win condition. With Moody, your win condition is to sit there and use Substitute and Protect (as well as Dive and Bounce with Octillery and Bibarel) until you've gotten the correct boosts. The worst part about Moody is that it's very self-sufficient; once you've gotten the proper boost (Defense, Special Defense, Evasion, or Speed, depend The only things I can think of that reliably deal with Moody almost every time are Perish Song and Haze. Even Whirlwind and Roar can fail against Moody Pokemon because they can get evasion boosts.

anyways that's my bitching about the metagame. what are your thoughts on this?

My thoughts on this are that you covered this entire post well with this snippet.

 

[Punchshroom]

If your team has absolutely no answers to Riolu, you're probably using a fairly poorly built team. Despite its general rarity in the metagame, it's still a really effective strategy that you should prepare for before finishing with your team. It's not like you're being forced to use bad Pokemon or bad moves in order to beat it either; priority is really good to have on any type of team, and I can't think of the last time I built a team without it. Offensive teams have priority attacks, while defensive teams have the occasional priority attack (Metang's Bullet Punch, Piloswine's Ice Shard), as well as moves such as Protect and even the rare Magic Coat.

Now I'm not saying these are bad priority moves or anything, but perhaps you'd care to list a better example, considering these 2 moves do nothing to stop Riolu. Protect can also be worked around with Substitute or manual Roaring.

On Liepard, Murkrow, and whatever other ParaFusion shit you can think of: you compare them to OHKO Clause and Moody Clause. However, this strategy is nothing like Moody Clause or OHKO Clause, really. I can see some kind of comparison being drawn between OHKO Clause and ParaFusion, but they are still very different from each other. On one hand, you have a poor coin-flip strategy that only two Pokemon can really utilize to the fullest extent. This strategy takes multiple turns of build-up before you can really get the ball rolling, and you have to hope that the opponent doesn't break through or have some sort of answer already prepared for it. On the other hand, you have something that a good number of Pokemon have access to.

This so much. I've used SwagPlay Liepard before and never looked back due to the supreme luck bullshit factor. Use Encore, people.

 

[ryan]

Of course these moves aren't infallible, but they handle Riolu fairly well. In the case of Protect, yes, the Riolu user can predict the Protect and use Roar, but that goes both ways. Almost every Alomomola uses Protect, so you can predict around it and use Waterfall on the Roar. Priority attacks can't really be played around at nearly as well though. In a similar vein, it's hard for Riolu to get up a free Substitute against anything bar Protect or Sucker Punch, as most attacks are able to break it, and few people will ever switch out against a Riolu when it comes in. Even worse, one of the more common users of Sucker Punch, Skuntank, also carries Taunt. Beating Riolu often requires some prediction, but it's by no means as difficult as what jcm's post made it sound. Even more, Riolu needs a lot of support in order to do its job effectively. Just setting up Stealth Rock isn't very reliable, as PP for Assist will eventually run out. I'm not saying that Riolu teams are awful by any means, but they're teams that should be naturally prepared for and require support from multiple Pokemon in order to succeed.

 

[Aasgier]

Alomomola's Waterfall fails to break Riolu's Substitutes, so there's that.

You build a team around Riolu, you will never slap Riolu on a team because it fits.
Also, EncoreTWave Liepard can screw even priority users over to make them slower than Riolu, and Encore Liepard is already a common teammate for Riolu. The Quick Feet users don't have priority, which helps.

But yes, of all my teams, my Riolu team performs the most consistently, followed by my Spike-stacking bulky offense team, then my Sun team.

Riolu can set up on most common threats and even things like Mandibuzz and Skuntank.


And well, like JCM, I think the metagame is not as varied as it was in Stage 8 - before the drops of Jynx-o-Pede, and I think this is partially the reason I play less NU as well (and if I play, it's with Riolu or with a Sun-team).

Also, things that used to counter Riolu are less viable now - faster priority doesn't do much to Riolu anyway. Even Swellow's Quick Attack can be Roared against multiple times (the biggest risk is the Swellow player taking advantage of this and using Brave Bird instead).

 

[ryan]

And well, like JCM, I think the metagame is not as varied as it was in Stage 8 - before the drops of Jynx-o-Pede, and I think this is partially the reason I play less NU as well (and if I play, it's with Riolu or with a Sun-team).

Stage 8 was packed with Psychic/Fighting/Dark cores and Calm Mind wars with Musharna. The metagame right now is far more varied that what it was before the drops, and I would argue that they were very good for the metagame. Primeape gave us a Fighting-type that didn't give Musharna a free switch. Scolipede made it easier to wear down Musharna throughout the match. Whether or not the metagame now is more healthy and balanced is debatable, but no, it is not less varied at all.

 

[Aasgier]

I also haven't seen any Bug not named Scolipede, Armaldo or Ninjask. Where is Pinsir? Where is Butterfree?

Gardevoir is still omnipresent at the ladder - but has no place on everything that isn't a Sun team or an HO team, or to set up a Linoone sweep.

And there are more Pokémon that I never see anymore. Arbok, to name another.

Yes, Musharna was very troublesome in Stage 8, but I think the meta was better off if we only got Mandibuzz, Munchlax and Primeape, with Jynx and Scolipede being left in RU.

 

[Infernis]

I've seen plenty of Volbeat on sun teams, or just being bastards with Prankster. We probably don't see as many bugs because all of the other bugs in the meta are really really bad. That weakness to rocks isn't super in a metagame with three crappy spinners and two worse ones.

 

[InsaneDragoniteHD]

Shifting away from the Riolu discussion...

Have any of you tried specially defensive Musharna. Just from sheer bulk alone she can counter most of the special attackers in NU.

calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 138-164 (31.87 - 37.87%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 185-218 (42.72 - 50.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 168-199 (38.79 - 45.95%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Eelektross Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 163-193 (37.64 - 44.57%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Musharna: 180-212 (41.57 - 48.96%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This Musharna spread seems pretty awesome when paired with a solid physical wall such as Regirock. There is not much that can break through the core, but there is one huge threat that is a huge deterrent from using a specially defensive spread on this Pokemon: Choice Band Sawk. I rely on Musharna a lot to beat Sawk, and Choice Band Sawk 2HKO's specially defensive Musharna with Close Combat. NU doesn't have many other solid Sawk answers, so you will be in for some trouble. I'd almost say it isn't worth it to use either of these just because of the presence of Choice Band Sawk. I would also not recommend using a specially defensive spread on a Calm Mind set, and only the pivot set, but most people use pivot Musharna these days anyways.

No I haven't actually, I am more of a physically defensive Musharna user because its defense and bulk is soo good ! It can take pursuit from a skuntank if at high enough health, but she does have to watch out for Skuntank. I recently built a team round CM Musharna and it almost ended up being kinda similiar to another one that I made. Hm, although specially defensive Musharna does look kinda convincing, there is a mon called lickylicky that does everything that specially defensive Musharna does, plus its immune to ghost type moves, which Musharna does not do well with.

Specially defensive Musharna could work in some situations, but she requires more support that way. Lickylicky doesn't require near as much support as a specially defensive musharna would.

Physically defensive Musharna can wall a lot of threats and can deal with Banded Sawk, a main threat in the tier. I could see mixed defensive Musharna working, but you lose on that physical bulk.

 

[Aasgier]

I've seen plenty of Volbeat on sun teams, or just being bastards with Prankster. We probably don't see as many bugs because all of the other bugs in the meta are really really bad. That weakness to rocks isn't super in a metagame with three crappy spinners and two worse ones.

Lol, how can I forget about Volbeat - I use Volbeat myself on a Sun team...

But even then, Pinsir certainly wasn't crap in Stage 8, used it with a lot of succes back then, and same for Leavanny, Arbok and a few other things that do nothing now bar stacking weaknesses with Scolipede.