Metagame NP: NU Stage 4 - A Whole New World (Bans on post #160)

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Mariannabelle

chill guy
:Politoed: I've already questioned the balance of other kinds of weather, and you already know what I think. Hope for a qb.

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That's the biggest issue if you ask me. Apart from that, things are fairly similar as they were before. Nothing else seems too unbearable, although I think there's a few critters that warrant discussion.

:Barbaracle: :Tyrantrum: :Slowbro-Galar: :Raichu-Alola: :Indeedee-F: :Porygon-Z:

EDIT 12/20: Also, :Toxtricity:
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
Also, if you’re struggling with Rain and don’t feel like getting dunked on in the meantime, there’s a few offense critters that can help you get an advantage (or at least, less of a disadvantage)

:Ninjask: Protect wastes rain turns while only needing one Speed Boost to get over every Swift Swimmer available.

:Raichu-Alola: :Pincurchin: Surge Surfer > Swift Swim. Raichu-A in Terrain is faster, and will fry most components of a Rain team without much trouble.

:Toxicroak: Water immunity, resists the secondary STABs of several Rain sweepers, and has priority options like Vac Wave and Sucker Punch.

:Tornadus: :Whimsicott: Prankster Tailwind is an option I’ve used in the past, and it puts in a lot of clutch work.

:Abomasnow: Messing them up with your own weather is an option as always.
 
Howdy, everybody! Roserade advocate Catalisador here to complain about not being picked for LTPL post some cool replays with teams I've been using for great success in the current SS NU metagame!

:roserade: :ninjask: :golurk: :porygon2: :slowbro-galar: :blastoise:

I was craving to use some spice so I just had to build with Swords Dance Roserade! As it struggles against Steel-types, I added some help in the form of CB Golurk. Momentum support was appreciated by both, so Porygon2, Blastoise and Ninjask all fit like a glove. Lastly, you can never go wrong with Future Sight Slowbro-Galar! It also provided Thunder Wave spam with Porygon2.

Replay 6 - 0ing your____bro's stall: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1248686983-2i773jupiv3erl8bnvyyoqdsrjb2e3tpw
Replay against fat balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1248679976-mh0duyzsqzhghsfhfxbusp5s7drlrpqpw
Replay against salty, high ladder guy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1248666153-5hmli89yl80vuco7nei984itu64lmibpw
Swords Dance Roserade solo 6 - 0: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1248664461-tk4n3vfwubvx6p8i6gt61rgwuftgxa3pw

:cresselia: :toxtricity: :porygon2: :slowbro-galar: :pangoro: :noivern:

I wanted to build around Hex Toxtricity, so i tried out paraspam with the aforementioned Porygon2 + Slowbro-Galar core. Pangoro provided a secondary breaker and Noivern complimented the volturn core while providing Defog and key resistances. Cresselia was just a fat glue/secondary win-condition.

Old version of paraspam vs. poh: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1246914311
Lucky replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1248590987-0h8hk3l1svgyyqjrd1a6nvtjwpvxi6mpw
Bo3 vs Ho3nConfirm3d using paraspam: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1247453516-q3zh55b8menyui9436k75ylk5em0zjepw
Paraspam vs Mariannabelle's Ninjask shenanigans: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1247454575-hn7pxm6ivu7oaikwiym6zwvdvd8grxjpw

Miscellaneous replays.

Bo3 vs Ho3nConfirm3d using Trick + Ring Target Zoroark: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1247457558-n2gtdfpo23kg3i1g1az39znhtu6j8u6pw
Pandaspam vs poh: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1246310298-7ew2evp5cspa1kybmt8ol90pm8l0p10pw

Other teams I've been really enjoying right now will be linked here:

Tentacool rain: :politoed: :tornadus: :kingdra: :tentacool: :ferroseed: :escavalier:
Nasty Plot Shiftry: :flygon: :shiftry: :slowbro-galar: :starmie: :copperajah: :mienshao:
Swords Dance Shiftry: :flygon: :shiftry: :slowbro-galar: :starmie: :copperajah: :mienshao:
Fighting spam: :pangoro: :mienshao: :slowbro-galar: :noivern: :escavalier: :starmie:
Ring Target Zoroark + Scale Shot Flygon: :zoroark: :starmie: :weezing: :sylveon: :talonflame: :flygon:

Quick thoughts (thought?) on the metagame:

:ss/Politoed:

If anything is broken right now, maybe it is Drizzle? But I don't think anything else is, personally.
 
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poh

<?>
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hi i'd like to talk about a few mons that i think are problematic/unhealthy for the tier



Galarian Slowbro.. People who played sm nu can immediately see the similarities with regular slowbro of last gen. Glowbro™ is more and more looking like a mon that shouldnt be NU. There are multiple reasons why it's hard to kill/hard to punish or why it can do its things so effectively. The calm mind set finds numerous ways of setting up because of it's good bulk and the threat of spreading status with sludge bomb and scald. There's a lack of splashable mons that can effectively stop it from setting up: ground types (most if not all lose to it), dark types (some fear the scald burn and we have multiple lasting dark resists) and ghost types (less splashable i feel but deserve to be explored more). Regenerator plays a huge role in outlasting its checks and this is what makes it too good. I've seen a lot of games where at some point cm slowbro just instawins. There's also the dumb quick draw set which yes is a coinflip but it's not as punishable as a kings rock cinccino or crit boosting inteleon. People know how strong it is and this is reflected through the ss nu snake usage stats where it is currently 1st tied with the goat elephant.


I always told myself autosun and rain would never have a place in NU. Rain isn't as powerful as sun but the tier has all the tools it needs for rain builds to be threatning. Playing or facing rain is definitely not an autowin/autoloss but you're gonna struggle for sure. I find myself often having to rely on bronzong and sylveon to stall rain turns with the risk ok kabutops or torn setting up in your face. The addition of weather ball to alot of the rain sweepers only made things worse too. Rain does have some viable and not d-rank level material to combat rain such as mantine, gastrodon, comfey etc. but i'm not sure that's enough to allow Drizzle in the tier.


Although this mon won't be seen broken by most, i think it should be looked at. Toxtricity has close to 0 defensive counterplay and while it is rather slow and frail the amount of power this mon has is insane. Despite the lack of bulk, its typing allows it to come in on a status move like toxic and twave or a resisted move like sludge bomb from glowbro. Ground-types have to deal with an absurdly strong boomburst and normal resists tend to get volted/snarled/overdrived. I can see a rise in ground types usage and while that's not necessarily a bad thing it rly shows how pressuring Toxtricity can be in the builder (this might also be a result of glowbro's omnipresence). Regarding how it acts in games, the toxtricity user often has the advantage when evaluating the risk/reward because its spammable strong moves cancel out their respective immunities. It's not difficult to revengekill it so there's that but I think my main argument to see this looked at is how straining it can be in the builder sometimes and how difficult it is to play against it.


Scarf mienshao is one of the most braindead mons in the tier. The combination of its power, speed and regenerator (again lol) push this mon over the edge for me. Offensive counterplay is very limited and you just uturn mindlessly the whole game without any risk bar effect spore plume. Can't get punished by hazards, can't get punished by rocky helmet, it can even tank some hits all thanks to regenerator. It's very similar to glowbro in that way; it can stay alive for the whole game while still doing relevant things with knock off and uturn and there's nothing you can do about it.

thanks for reading :toast:
 

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
council is doing a vote on the following Pokemon:

:mienshao: Mienshao has been oft compared to Passimian in SM NU. There is very little drawback to using it because of its reliability at revenge killing and pivoting, but the key difference between the two is Regenerator. Regenerator makes Mienshao significantly harder to punish through passive damage like Spikes and Rocky Helmet because it'll just recover off the health lost, and despite its poor bulk it rarely finds itself taking hits because of its great Choice Scarf-boosted Speed. Additionally, all-out attacker sets with Life Orb have been popping up lately to better manage potential Choice-locked Mienshao answers like Sylveon and Sigilyph and take advantage of Regenerator.

:bewear: On paper, Bewear doesn't really have defensive counterplay. It's strong as hell and has just the right coverage between Normal + Fighting + Dark. Its bulk courtesy of good HP and Fluffy help provide it with plenty of chances to switch in to wallbreak and help it survive some very random hits like Choice Scarf Mienshao's Close Combat, and with maximum Speed investment and a Jolly nature it outpaces the entire defensive metagame and much of the slower offensive metagame.

:politoed: (Drizzle): Drizzle has enabled Pokemon like Tornadus, Kingdra, and others to run rough shod over the entire metagame. There's very limited counterplay to the powerful attackers that rain augments, and automatically setting rain on entry exacerbates this further because you don't have to waste a second turn to have the weather up.

:tornadus: Even outside of rain, Tornadus is a huge threat. It's fast and strong as hell, can boost with Nasty Plot, and has great coverage to punish potential checks like Bronzong, Gastrodon, and Sylveon, with a deep utility movepool to further its versatility. It's also a premier beneficiary of rain with its perfectly accurate Hurricanes and Water-type Weather Ball, which turns Diancie from a counter to a shaky check.

:toxtricity: Ever since Rhyperior left, Toxtricity has been getting discussed a lot more as potentially too much for the tier to handle. Very few Pokemon can handle the combination of Overdrive + Boomburst, and several of the few that do end up being pivoted on by Toxtricity's Volt Switch and exploited by whatever it brings in.

:barbaracle: Shell Smash Barbaracle is dangerous. After a boost, there isn't much that can tank a hit from it and OHKO in return, and the potential aid of dual screens makes it even harder to safely remove after being damaged. Additionally, Barbaracle can tech a few moves in its last moveslot to pick and choose its answers: Superpower for Bewear, Grass Knot for Gastrodon, and Switcheroo for general all-game utility when paired with Choice Scarf.

:porygon-z: Porygon-Z is an incredibly potent wallbreaker, Adaptability Tri Attack has very few switch-ins outside of Steel-types, Gigalith, and Porygon2, and all of these foes are susceptible to Trick on Choice item sets. Although Porygon-Z isn't the fastest, it can utilize Agility to mitigate that issue while simultaneously becoming a threatening setup sweeper.

:sigilyph: Sure, Sigilyph fell to PU a week ago, but that doesn't make it a highly volatile threat in NU. Its coverage is insane, and only Porygon2 is truly consistent defensive counterplay. Sigilyph is very adept at taking advantage of passive Pokemon like Gastrodon, Mantine, and Cresselia to get wallbreaking and setup opportunities, and the removal of Pursuit has made it very hard to pin down and remove even after a death fodder.

:slowbro-galar: Galarian Slowbro is incredibly versatile between its Assault Vest and defensive Calm Mind sets, and there's a strong case to be made for Quick Draw sets simply being uncompetitive. Even removing those from the equation, though, Galarian Slowbro is a menace. Calm Mind makes it very difficult to take out, whereas Assault Vest sets can use its great coverage to beat down defensive cores and set up for offensive teammates with Future Sight.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
To :Politoed: (Rain/Drizzle): I think rain is very overwhelming for the tier to handle it with so many good abusers and auto-weather which Politoed provides thanks to its great typing and bulk and also the access to drizzle as a bility and damp rock, which furthers the rain-turns from 5 to 8 making it a very good mon and rain very overhwleming to face. Tornadus, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and other Pokemon like Heliolisk can abuse rain in a sentiment where not a lot opf switches are able to come in on their great attacks, be it a strong 100% hurricane or a drizzle-boosted water-stab. i think rain should go asap as the counterplay to it is very limited and most Pokemon, which can check them will fall to their coverage options or their teampartners.

:tornadus: itself: I am not too sure about tornadus itself, if it should leave or stay with rain being gone, right now it is pushed over the edge by rain and I want to see how it is on the battlefield without rain making it a mon, which has no switchins at all. I am perhaps on the fence on it, but I dont mind it getting banned, If there will be an upcoming slate with it on it. but I really wanna see it without rain first tbh.

:slowbro-galar: quick draw and quick claw alongside great tools in coverage options + great boosting moves make this pokemon a very versatile but also dangerous threat fpr the nu-tier. sure some people would say quick draw + quick claw is a luck-based gamble, but in my opinion, quick draw is an uncompetetive ability, which lets you to a very high percentage act first, means after a boost, you can KO a mon even before it is able to touch glowbro in the slightest, and we all saw already plenty of games, where glowbro was just the wincon solely by the ability in quick draw.
regenerator-sets however can turn out fine, making it a great defensive pivot which the tier really appreciates, especially to the plenty strong and threatening fighting-types the tier gained over the course of the last quick shifts, such as bewear, passimian, and mieanshao.
I think the best way to handle it is banning quick draw, allthough that would perhaps lead to a complex ban, unless we all in agreement, that this ability creates an uncompetetive aspect, which turns out very problematic, similar cases would be arena trap, shadow tag, or moody.

Not too sure about the others, but I feel like these points are for now my personal most important points and thanks for reading!
 
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Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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New slate, time to voice my opinion about the mons on it. Without further ado, lets get into it.

:mienshao:
It is ridiculous how fast AND strong this thing is. It has an attack stat similar to our slow fighing breaker but with a speed stat that is amazing for a Choice Scarf set. Access to Regenerator + U-turn in combination with its high speed not only makes it probably the best offensive pivot but also makes Psychic types like Celebi a rough switchin if you expect a Close Combat. Coverage in Knock Off and Stone Edge (or Poison Jab but that is probably better on non-scarf sets) round its coverage off and allows it to revengekill pokemon like Talonflame which normally is a decent check to Mienshao. If you feel like it you could also slap a Choice Band on it and run Reckless HJK to dunk on resists like Sylveon after Stealth Rock damage (even tho it is a bit inferior to Regenerator-Choice Scarf sets. Life Orb + Regenerator is also a pretty potent combo as you just heal of the recoil damage).
It is one of the mons that fall under the category of 'you can't go wrong with using it' and it sometimes feels a bit overwhelming as even Rocky Helmet poison types like Weezing don't hurt it much because of Regenerator. The best answers would be pokemon with 30% abilities as Talonflame's Flame Body and Vileplume's Effect Spore.

:Bewear:
Bewear and Pangoro feel similar in the case of having perfect coverage and stupidly hard hitting STABs but Bewear might seem a bit harder to deal with as it can live a surprising amount of attacks on the physical (contact) side. You can't really do anything wrong with slapping this thing on your team and pair it with pokemon like Galarian Slowbro or Dragalge and call it a good core. Defensive answers are rare and your best bet is prob switching into your fairy/psychic on a predicted Close Combat and hope you don't die from the following Double Edge. Getting back to the comparison with Pangoro, Bewear has a slightly higher attack stat which also makes it a decent pivot into an expected Knock Off from Pangoro and it doesn't have to worry to risk a 50/50 as it faster than Pangoro (assuming both run the same nature). For the ammount of offensive power Bewear adds to a team it also adds so much defensive value in being an natural check to rock types like Tyrantrum and Aerodactyl and having a ghost immunity is always nice for Choice-locked Porygon-Z.

:Politoed: (Drizzle)
ban, thanks.

:Tornadus:
I heard so many different opinions about this pokemon so I try my best to make this as objective as possible. I would've never expected this to drop to NU and even less that it might not be broken. 115 base attack and 125 base special-attack is really scary, especially paired with a speed stat of 111. Tornadus' coverage is amazing e.g Iron Tail/Focus Blast for typical Flying resists like Diance, Gigalith and Copperajah; Knock Off for overall utility and to just shit on Porygon2 that would otherwise be a decent check. Supowerpower, U-turn, Heat Wave and Weather Ball (in rain, which is currently available) round off the coverage and allows Tornadus to pick its checks and counters. Tornadus is amazing at overwhelming defensive cores with its coverage and if you add a boosting item like Life Orb or Expert Belt, there is no 'true counter' to it. The fact that it can choose its set and nature makes it hard to predict and to prepare for. I have used Tornadus myself and I know from experience that missing Hurricane/Focus Blast sucks and makes it look like it is underwhelming but that is a whack argument since you can not rely on your opponent missing an attack. The only thing that really keeps it in check is the fact that running Heavy-Duty Boots makes it a bit less powerful but I feel like many people miss that it is not supposed to kill everything in one hit and its checks are mostly steel and rock types that typically don't have recovery outside of Leftovers so chipping at them with that high of a damage output makes it pretty hard to handle.
I would still like to see it with Drizzle being banned, just to ensure that it is still broken even w/o 100% accurate Hurricane and water type Weather Ball.

:Toxtricity:
I am actually surprised that this is on the slate as I am a huge fan of Toxtricity at the moment and I haven't felt it being overpowered. It sure has two pretty dumb and spamable moves in Boomburst and Overdrive + key resistances like fairy and poison but dancing around those two or more like having the 50/50 as the Toxtricity user can cometimes be harder than it seems. Toxtricity does have coverage in Snarl and Hex for prob the best current checks to it in Palosand, Decidueye and Dhelmise but locking yourself into such a comparatively weak dark type move with huge threats like Pangoro roaming around can be a disadvantage and opens more mind games with doubles etc. I can see the argument that it also can just volt out on probably the safest check in Porygon2 and bring in another breaker e.g. Pangoro, but that kinda falls for other breaker that run a pivot move too, like offensive Rotom-Mow, which is also threatens normal electric resists and brings breaker like Copperajah on the what I expect a Goodra, Dragalge or Porygon2. With how offensive and fast the meta got, base 75 speed also doesn't feel as good as it once was. It surely outspeeds common defensive pokemon but there are quite a few offensive mons that can pivot into an expected move (I know that is risky) like Goodra and Flygon and kill it in return. Also, I tested both, Choice Specs (both Modest and Timid) and non-specs variants. My conclusion was it definitely needs Choice Specs to break through the opposing team and even Timid Choice Specs (if you are worried about Tyrantrum) felt sometimes a tiny bit underwhelming. It is definitely a really good breaker, but not banworthy in my opinion.

:Barbaracle:
This mon is dangerous, especially paired with other brainless set up sweeper on dual screens teams. Like in tRabia's post mentioned, it has the coverage and opportunities to set up and sweep teams that don't keep their check healthy enough. The lack of reliable defensive counterplay also makes building around this easy as, even if you run into Bewear and it kills you, you chunked it hard and your Tornadus gets an opportunity to set up for basically free behind screens. I haven't seen any other set outside of Shell Smash so I can't speak for that (if that is even the case). This should've been banned alongside with the other dumb set up sweeper, at least imo.

:Porygon-Z:
Surprisingly enough, I didn't had any trouble with Porygon-Z in the past. I can for sure see why it is borderline broken as its Adapatability boosted Tri Attack alongside its massive 135 base special attack stat makes it hard to switch into safely. Access to Nasty Plot and Agility allows you to pick on either dunking slower defensive teams or screw offense. Shadow Ball really is the only coverage move Porygon-Z needs to hit ghost types that are immune to Tri Attack. I feel like it has a decent amount of checks like spdef Diancie and Copperajah, but Choice Specs Tri Attacks chunks them hard and it is always risky because of the secondary effect Tri Attack has. I saw comparison with Toxtricity as a strong normal type attack spammer but I feel Porygon-Z puts the cherry on top as it is way faster and has the option to break even the sturdiest checks with Nasty Plot.
For everyone: Toxtricity's Boomburst does around 8% more than Porygon-Z's Tri Attack (assuming Modest Specs Tox and Timid Specs PZ)

:Sigilyph:
The fact that Sigilyph dropped and Galarian Articuno didn't is a prime example for the new toy syndrom. Sigilyph is such a big threat and I feel many people tend to forget about it while building. Magic Guard is an amazing ability and allows Sigilyph to run Life Orb without the drawback of getting recoil. Coverage in Heat Wave and great dual STAB makes Sigilyph a really potent breaker and a force to be reckoned with. Defensive counterplay varies from specially defensive steel types like Copperajah or Bronzong, even tho Heat Wave chunks both of them pretty hard. I feel for now it isn't too big of a threat but with further bans and meta developing it could become busted.

:Slowbro-Galar:
I hate to admit that Slowbro is unhealthy due to an uncompetetive ability. Quick Draw takes a big part of the game away from the player facing Slowbro as normal revengekiller like Pangoro could just get taken out by a random +1 prio move. There really is no argument that justifies this staying in NU (or any other tier) and I am sure everyone will agree on it.
i am still sad to see Galarian Slowbro leaving because I had so much fun with it and it really developed itself as a nice glue mon for balance and bulky offense.
 
Time for my stuck-at-home-in-the-middle-of-a-blizzard opinions of the mons on the slate.

:Mienshao:
This mon is so irritatingly good, whenever I'm building (non-hard stall) I have a tough time finding a reason not to run this thing. I think we can all agree that Regenerator is already a stupid ability, and Mienshao abuses it as an offensive threat to the fullest. Besides the Choice Scarf set being slapable on pretty much every team, Mienshao can also utilize Life Orb, Reckless Choice Band, and probably a few other niche options. The fact that non-Reckless sets are effectively immune to hazards and other residual damage as well as being able to click U-turn all game with no drawback makes this mon super consistently great at worst. Whether or not the council votes to ban it, I expect Mienshao to rise to RU, as many RU players I've talked with are surprised it hasn't already left NU.

:Bewear:
As a recent convert to Swords Dance Bewear, let me tell you that once you SD up, this mon really has no counters. Additionally, Bewear can use its great physical bulk augmented by Fluffy to get in safely more easily than other breakers. Having the jump on the defensive metagame as well as quite a few of the slower breakers is also a great trait for it. All that being said, it has its issues. Poor special bulk makes it one of the easier targets to be worn down by even the weaker special attackers, and status is a bit of a death sentence unless you allocate heal bell support. Of course, these flaws are more than manageable and applicable to many more breakers. I'm not super convinced one way or another, but I'll just have to wait and see what the council decides.

:Politoed:
Wait, you're telling me that Specs Kingdra and the other new rain toys we got in DLC2 are still hilariously broken in NU? Gee, I never would have guessed.

:Tornadus:
After much debate and playtesting, I am going to cautiously say that Tornadus deserves just a bit more time to see how the meta adapts to its presence. Is it a crazy powerful breaker? Absolutely. Is it flawless? Absolutely not. While I find the 70% accuracy STAB and primary coverage in Focus Blast argument meager, as relying on misses generally only points to how busted a mon is, the issues Tornadus faces are tough to overcome. The primary thing is that Tornadus lacks priority, making the options to revenge kill it numerous and common. Furthermore, Tornadus lacks significant defensive utility and due to the lack of dual STAB, it finds it difficult to justify running Boots. That being said, if piloted correctly and given the proper support, it is a monstrous breaker, but not uncheckable. Sylveon, Diancie, Porygon2, etc. can all check it, but Tornadus has excellent coverage options that can allow it to potentially break all of these. I think in the grand scheme of things, we can give Tornadus a little more time in a slightly changed environment to conclude if it is too much.

:Toxtricity:
This thing is a crazy special attacker. With typing granting it a resistance to most common priority and an environment lacking many good checks, especially with Rhyperior being gone, Toxtricity has risen to become a crazy Specs breaker. Personally, I find the prediction argument unoriginal, as what Specs or Band breaker isn't somewhat held back by prediction? The lack of bulky Grounds in the meta and the fact that even the best check on paper, Palossand, is slapped by repeated Snarls, speaks to how limited the pool of checks is. I think the best solution for now would be to ban it, but if I were a council member, I would also make it one of the first NUBL mons retested.

:Barbaracle:
This is the Shell Smash sweeper that wasn't banned that I found easily more broken than the teapot. The persistence of dual screens is largely because of nuclear threats such as this, but dual screens is significantly worse than previously. I don't really have a strong opinion on Barbaracle, but If it went, then it would be one less threat you have to account for when teambuilding.

:Porygon-Z:
This is another nuclear threat in dual screens (as well as a great choice for a breaker on other forms of offense), but unlike Barbaracle, Porygon-Z is significantly easier to check. Having a Nasty Plot up does make it effectively unwallable, but that would pretty much always require screens being up, and screens is simply becoming more and more inconsistent. Without NP up, Specs is still scary, as is Scarf for surprise factor, but there are many options for checking these sets. But wait, you can Trick those checks (except for Steelvally, a criminally underrated mon right now)! Well sure, but then you still have to deal with revenge killers, poor bulk making even bulky Tricked mons a potential threat to it, and a million other things. Is it good? Yes. Is it broken? No.

:Sigilyph:
I won't comment on this one, as I haven't seen or played with it enough to come to an educated conclusion. See other posts such as that of Corthius, who did and excellent analysis on all the mons on the slate.

:Slowbro-Galar:
[Insert obligatory comment about how Quick Draw is uncompetitive]. With that out of the way, let's get to the primary sets. The thing that pushes Glowbro over the edge to me is its access to insane coverage. Oh, you have a CB Pangoro that's about to knock Glowbro? Sorry, it just got a nasty Scald burn. You have a bulky defensive core to wear it down? Well, enjoy Glowbro spreading poison with Sludge Bomb? Oh, and while they're at it, they might just sweep you with Calm Mind. Between limitless recovery, not caring about status, having a poison immunity, 4x fighting resistance, an insane movepool, and a thousand other great qualities, this thing just puts to much strain on the tier. Please ban it.

Honorable Mentions:

:Pangoro:
I HATE THIS MON. There are a some total of 3 defensive checks that resist both of this things STABs; Sylveon, Comfey, and Fairyvally. The latter 2 are not overly excited about eating Close Combat and will die to repeated hits. Sylveon, on paper the best counter to CB Goro in the tier, is passive enough that the opponent can take their time wearing it down with chip and hazards, and taking advantage of the fact that Sylveon must keep itself healthy to gain multiple free switches. Frankly, I would forgive RU for everything they have ever stolen from us if they just took this mon back from NU.

:Salazzle:
This thing is criminally underrated right now. Possessing an excellent STAB combination, an irritating ability allowing for a Subtox set, and a meta with multiple staples that it can get in for free on such as Earthquake-less Bronzong, Salazzle is incredibly threatening. I can't tell you how many times I've recently built a team and looked it over and realized that it just gets 6-0'd by Salazzle. While definitely not banworthy, this thing bears watching and definitely deserves more credit than it's getting right now.
 
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Howdy, everybody. I'm done with my little laddering session and, after proving that I can, indeed, reach high ladder without having to rely to cheese hyper offense builds, I have come to a few conclusions. This one might be controversial.

magenta cata.png

The team: :tornadus: :dragalge: :copperajah: :comfey: :blastoise: :mienshao:

:mienshao: From its arguably best Choice Scarf set to its Life Orb AoA set, Mienshao is the pure definition of splashability and consistency. I completely disagree with its nomination. Although it, indeed, provides immesurable versatility, it is by no means overpowered or overcentralizing.
DO NOT BAN.

:bewear: Who keeps nomming this mon? DO NOT BAN.

:politoed: (Drizzle): After a few games, I've come to the conclusion that rain is absolutely manageable in the current SS NU metagame. Defensive staples such as Dragalge and Gastrodon establish themselves as top anti-rain picks while other pokémon such as Blastoise, Goodra and Comfey provide nicher checks for the once-mighty weather. As of right not, though, I say DO NOT BAN rain.

:tornadus: Inside rain it shines and is extremely powerful, but still not banworthy in my eyes. Outside rain, I always think it lacks something? Usually a little bit of speed, to be honest... But yeah, fantastic pokemon but definitely not ban worthy. DO NOT BAN.

:toxtricity: Although it has little switch-ins, mainly the likes of Porygon2, Diancie and defensive Decidueye, Toxtricity doesn't seem broken in practice. It is an extremely potent breaker, but the lack of speed and its movepool creating 50/50s make it manageable. DO NOT BAN.

:barbaracle: I disagree this pokémon is ban-worthy as well. It has decent enough checks in the likes of Bewear, Gastrodon and First Impression users after setting up and even before setting up it can be manageable enough by adopting a more aggressive gameplay, by keeping up momentum or removing screens off the field - ensuring Barbaracle doesn't have an easy entrance to setup. DO NOT BAN.

:porygon-z: Differently from Toxtricity, Porygon-Z has virtually no switch-ins with its better coverage moves, access to better setupping tool in Nasty Plot and the ability to 2HKO the entire tier (bar SpDef Diancie). Yeah, this is my first BAN.

:sigilyph: I haven't seen too much of Sigilyph, but the ones I've seen haven't been of too much trouble personally. It seems like a healthy addition to the metagame, despite being PU. DO NOT BAN.

:slowbro-galar: Yeah, DO NOT BAN. This pokémon is an amazing, healthy defensive glue that CAN be punished by common offensive pokémon such as Specs Starmie, CB Pangoro, Flygon, Toxtricity, etc.. It provides decent offensive pressure via Future Sight, a high-skill cap move, and, although the gimmicky Quick Draw does make it frustrating to deal with sometimes, it is hardly a broken pokémon itself. If anything, revisit the Quick Draw ability on the next slate.
 

etern

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NU Leader
Here are the results for the final Council slate of the month:

Council votes.PNG


:barbaracle: Barbaracle was banned for it's insane sweeping potential after a single Shell Smash. It's dual STABs give it fantastic coverage, and the freedom to run whatever fourth move it deems necessary to break past would-be counters. These commonly included Superpower for blasting through Bewear, SpD Gastrodon, Ferroseed, and Duraludon, Grass Knot to nail certain Water-types, and Earthquake. Overall, Barbaracle's ease of sweeping put too much constraint on teambuilding and was far too consistent for how many opportunities it could create to sweep uninterrupted.

:Tornadus: Tornadus was blessed with insane power, coverage, and Speed which put it at the forefront of our radars from the moment it dropped. Ultimately the council deemed it too strong, and it's pool of answers far too limited for it to be a healthy addition to the tier.

:Slowbro-Galar: Slowbro-G has been a controversial Pokemon since dropping to NU. It's standard Regenerator sets are a nightmare to deal with, whether it be Calm Mind or Assault Vest, and those alone made it a potential banworthy contender to some. However, with the rise of Quick Draw sets opening an even more uncompetitive avenue to Slowbro players, it was near unanimously agreed upon as too strong for the tier.

Finally, Drizzle has also been banned from NU due to the ridiculous wallbreaking potential it's abusers have. The playstyle is universally agreed upon as overwhelming, and it's counterplay is extremely limited due to the wide array of Pokemon that can abuse it to some degree. (Marty The Immortal, thank you!)

That's all for this month! Stay tuned for the first tier shift of 2021, after which we'll hopefully be able to begin preparation for formal suspect testing. Enjoy your holidays!
 
:barbaracle: Barbaracle was banned for it's insane sweeping potential after a single Shell Smash. It's dual STABs give it fantastic coverage, and the freedom to run whatever fourth move it deems necessary to break past would-be counters. These commonly included Superpower for blasting through Bewear, SpD Gastrodon, Ferroseed, and Duraludon, Grass Knot to nail certain Water-types, and Earthquake. Overall, Barbaracle's ease of sweeping put too much constraint on teambuilding and was far too consistent for how many opportunities it could create to sweep uninterrupted.
Polteageist and the Dual Screens gang welcoming yet again another setup sweeper to NUBL like:


Un bacio, Porygon-Z! E la gente sta arrivando!
 
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Finchinator

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Mienshao strikes me as a great addition to the offensive metagame. Really happy it has avoided the bans. Feel like we can use it as a great pivot and revenge killer without too many drawbacks, much like Passimian last generation, but it will always have checks and counters present.

I also think Porygon-Z may be able to find actual openings in games with the metagame slowly balancing, so it may be something to keep a close eye on for potential future votes. I wasn’t close to sold on it this time though. Was too slow and fragile for the hectic metagame state.
 
How the the NU council became the Grinch that stole my Christmas by making screens a nealy-unviable playstyle.

:delibird: :ss/barbaracle: :delibird:

Aight, imma do my weekly complaining session early this time. Time to talk about how Barbaracle was a perfectly fine and healthy addition to SS NU and how it only benefited the plurality of playstyles in the metagame.

1. Barbaracle's role

Barbaracle's role was, mainly, that of a Shell Smash setupper. Thanks to a free, no-drawback Life Orb boost to its STAB Liquidation and coverage moves (Superpower or Grass Knot) on top of already possessing phenomenal dual Water/Rock STAB, the barnacle quickly solidified itself as a premier offensive threat on the SS NU metagame.

2. Barbaracle counterplay

Although on paper it might seem broken, on practice it is way easier to manage Barbaracle. Defensive counterplay is found all over the place: Gastrodon, Milotic, Bewear, Blastoise, Vileplume, Quagsire and Ferroseed are all premier defensive options against it, while offensive answers in potent First Impression users such as Choice Banded Flygon and Golisopod are also viable. Other niche picks such as Toxicroak and Poliwrath also dealt with it extremely well after setting up.
Furthermore, it is easy to keep up the pressure against a Barbaracle, either by defogging away their screens (Barbaracle's best friends and catalysts to its power) or keeping up the offensive momentum.

3. How Barbaracle leaving affects the Dual Screens playstyle as a whole

With the barnacle's departure, NU loses the last string holding screens together, in my eyes. Now, we lack strong setup sweepers/abusers of playstyle. Here is a list of settuping options for dual screens:

:absol: Speed
:bewear: Speed
:celebi: Power, Coverage
:decidueye:
:rhydon:
:shiftry:
:silvally: Power
:sirfetchd: Power
:toxicroak: Speed

:celebi:
:claydol: Power, Speed
:shiftry: Speed, Power
:porygon-z: Bulk, Speed
:toxicroak: Speed

:flygon: Power
:tyrantrum: Speed

:blastoise: Power, Coverage
:turtonator: Speed, Power

:toxtricity: Coverage

In red are some flaws to each setupper's specific set. Ex.: Flygon's extremely mediocre power makes it unable to properly sweep, same with Blastoise's subpar offenses and coverage or Turtonator's speed.
Barbaracle provided a strong breaking/cleaning option for such overall subpar settuping options, making the screens playstyle overall more concise. Now, it is much harder to chip down/clean teams with a dedicated screens team of your own, in my opinion.

Lastly, I wanted to hear y'all's opinions on the subject. Is dual screens ruined forever?! Should Barbaracle have stayed in NU?
 
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roxie

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I actually agree with Barbaracle's ban as it was one of the things I felt needed to go with Galarian Slowbro and Drizzle. Barbaracle appreciated screens a lot from Espeon or Xatu entirely a lot yes but it can even still setup if positioned in the right placed such as: a burned Pokemon , Parting Shot support, or in front of a Pokemon that has to risk a move or switchout like Mantine, Salazzle, Miltoic, or possibly Bronzong if its not running Body Press.
Defensive counterplay is found all over the place: Gastrodon, Milotic, Bewear, Blastoise, Vileplume, Quagsire and Ferroseed are all premier defensive options against it
" Barbaracle's role was that of a Shell Smash setupper. Thanks to a free, no-drawback Life Orb boost to its STAB Liquidation and coverage moves (Superpower or Grass Knot) on top" Here are some calculations with the Pokemon you are referencing and it doesn't even account Adamant Barbaracle:
:gastrodon:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 519-611 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 421-499 (98.8 - 117.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
:milotic:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Milotic: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
:bewear:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 316-373 (71.1 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle through Reflect: 130-154 (45.6 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO not a check with screens up
:blastoise:
relies on scald burn or toxic overtime which is unreliable
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 273-322 (75.4 - 88.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 381-448 (127.4 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:vileplume:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 292-344 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
:quagsire:
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 338-400 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
:ferroseed:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 387-458 (132.5 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I do not think you are accounting that White Herb and Focus Sash are also possible sets and the defensive counter play is heavily reliant on rolls, whether its adamant or jolly, whether its running Superpower or Grass Knot, and Screens being up making First Impression do way less than expected. Screens HO is one of the simple and easier playstyles to get adjusted to and recently banned Pokemon like Bara and Galarian Slowbro was broken with or without screens in my eyes. But as far as Pokemon like Absol(Fairies/Fightings), Blastoise(SpD Pokemon like Gastrodon/Mantine) and numerous other Pokemon you listed I feel aren't as big. In terms of offensive Pokemon overall in the metagame, :ditto: should be used more imo.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
I think to say that Screens is a nearly unviable / dead playstyle with Galar-Bro and Barbaracle gone is a bit too much in my opinion, when there are still plenty of other Dual-Screen-Abusers, such as:
:articuno-galar: With Calm Mind and Freezing Glare and Hurricane
:bewear: Swords Dance Set
:blastoise: Shell Smash Set Mixed, Special, or Physical
:Celebi: Swords Dance or Nasty Plot Sets
:Comfey: Calm Mind Set
:Decidueye: Swords Dance or Nasty Plot Sets
:flygon: Dragon Dance (with or without Scale Shot)
:porygon-z: offers Nasty Plot Sets with great coverage-options
:pangoro: Swords Dance Set with the ability to break past fairies due to Gunk Shot in its arsenal
:Rotom-mow: Nasty Plotter
:Tyrantrum: Plenty of strong Base Power Moves on a Dragon Dance Set
:zoroark: either Physical or Special
:toxtricity: Shift Gear veriants (with or without Throat Spray)
and the list goes on and on and on.

I dont think that Screens will be an unviable playstyle with not only great setters but still great abusers, these are more than a great handful of abusers, which appreciate Dual Screens for their own opportunity and some of these Pokemon are even able to run more than just only 1 viable Set in their arsenal.

Barbaracle got banned because it didn't have enough counterplay as with Coverage options like Grass Knot and Superpower it was able to break past its checks, and Galar-Bro could have ended up in a Tiering Policy-issue when we only banned Quick Draw as ability, but speculating about the outcome of - when it would have been discussed further - is in my opion unnecessary, hence Galarian-Slowbro as a whole got banned instead.

I still stand on my point, to say that Dual Screens as a playstyle is dead / unviable is a bit of a stretch, as there are plenty of great Pokemon, be it NU via usage or in PU, which can abuse the Dual Screens in a formidable way, Barbaracle wasn't the only great Pokemon on that playstyle, just dig deeper into the list and the Sets of each Pokemon and you'll find easily more than a handful of Pokemon for Dual Screen Playstyle.
 

EonX

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Kind of looking at the meta post-bans, Vileplume is looking very solid. With Tornadus, Galar Bro, and Barbaracle gone from the tier (on top of all the other recent bans of setup sweepers like Lucario and Linoone, whom could boost up and push past Plume as it comes in) Vileplume is looking like a top defensive Pokemon. Between Effect Spore, Sludge Bomb, and Leech Seed, Vileplume has a lot of passive pressure associated with it and Stength Sap only makes it even more of a challange to break through for physical attackers. Corrosive Gas is another piece of tech that can be used to remove crucial items from switch ins, such as Life Orb, Choice Specs, Heavy-Duty Boots, etc. that can allow it or its teammates to better pressure the opposition. While it obviously can't have all of this at once (it typically runs dual STABs + Strength Sap) it can be a pain to switch into and very punishing when switching into U-turn / resisted physical attacks should Effect Spore activate. It obviously has its fair share of issues with the likes of Goodra, Celebi, and Dragalge while being unable to really offensively pressure Bronzong and Copperajah (Strength Sap makes it easier to switch into the latter though) Vileplume happens to pair well with the likes of Diancie, Centiskortch, and Bronzong / Copperajah of your own as it covers many of their weaknesses and vice versa, so it's not as hard to support as one would think. In particular, I think the Galar Slowbro ban is huge as it was a Pokemon that could beat Vileplume at its own game; playing the long game, without much effort all while threatening a large amount of Pokemon Vileplume is typically used with.
 

Expulso

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:ss/sigilyph:

sigilyph will be rly fire now that galarbro is gone to compete for the Psychic-type slot. it can run max HP Flame Orb CM / Roost / Psycho Shift / Air Slash if it chooses; this set tears through defensive teams and was the primary reason it got banned from RU during SSD, though Sylveon + Toxtricity makes it less automatically devastating here. To not be defeated by prominent offensive threats like Toxtricity, it can run offensive LO CM / Psyshock / Heat Wave / Roost; of the psychics, it’s probably the one most capable of breaking through Copperajah, which is huge rn. It can also run Trick + Sticky Barb if you really want to wear down Copperajah+Zong. You can even do the standard offensive set with a Colbur Berry to lure in Scarf Mienshaos (though you need to be wary of Stone Edge).

Tl;dr: with Gbro gone try Sigilyph as your Psychic type, it has a ton of different sets and is probably very good right now.

enjoy the holidays, everyone! merry christmas :)
 

Corthius

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How the the NU council became the Grinch that stole my Christmas by making screens a nealy-unviable playstyle.

:delibird: :ss/barbaracle: :delibird:

Aight, imma do my weekly complaining session early this time. Time to talk about how Barbaracle was a perfectly fine and healthy addition to SS NU and how it only benefited the plurality of playstyles in the metagame.

1. Barbaracle's role

Barbaracle's role was, mainly, that of a Shell Smash setupper. Thanks to a free, no-drawback Life Orb boost to its STAB Liquidation and coverage moves (Superpower or Grass Knot) on top of already possessing phenomenal dual Water/Rock STAB, the barnacle quickly solidified itself as a premier offensive threat on the SS NU metagame.

2. Barbaracle counterplay

Although on paper it might seem broken, on practice it is way easier to manage Barbaracle. Defensive counterplay is found all over the place: Gastrodon, Milotic, Bewear, Blastoise, Vileplume, Quagsire and Ferroseed are all premier defensive options against it, while offensive answers in potent First Impression users such as Choice Banded Flygon and Golisopod are also viable. Other niche picks such as Toxicroak and Poliwrath also dealt with it extremely well after setting up.
Furthermore, it is easy to keep up the pressure against a Barbaracle, either by defogging away their screens (Barbaracle's best friends and catalysts to its power) or keeping up the offensive momentum.

3. How Barbaracle leaving affects the Dual Screens playstyle as a whole

With the barnacle's departure, NU loses the last string holding screens together, in my eyes. Now, we lack strong setup sweepers/abusers of playstyle. Here is a list of settuping options for dual screens:

:absol: Speed
:bewear: Speed
:celebi: Power, Coverage
:decidueye:
:rhydon:
:shiftry:
:silvally: Power
:sirfetchd: Power
:toxicroak: Speed

:celebi:
:claydol: Power, Speed
:shiftry: Speed, Power
:porygon-z: Bulk, Speed
:toxicroak: Speed

:flygon: Power
:tyrantrum: Speed

:blastoise: Power, Coverage
:turtonator: Speed, Power

:toxtricity: Coverage

In red are some flaws to each setupper's specific set. Ex.: Flygon's extremely mediocre power makes it unable to properly sweep, same with Blastoise's subpar offenses and coverage or Turtonator's speed.
Barbaracle provided a strong breaking/cleaning option for such overall subpar settuping options, making the screens playstyle overall more concise. Now, it is much harder to chip down/clean teams with a dedicated screens team of your own, in my opinion.

Lastly, I wanted to hear y'all's opinions on the subject. Is dual screens ruined forever?! Should Barbaracle have stayed in NU?
I feel like beating a dead horse at the moment but you asked for it so ...

1. My opinion on the ban overall
First of all, I am very happy about this ban; in fact I wondered why it wasn't banned alongside the other absurd setup sweeper we had a couple of weeks ago. As Roxiee above me has a nice wall of calcs I can refer to which you can find here, I want to just add a little of my opinion on there too.

2. The so called 'counterplay'
The counterplay that is mentioned (mostly Gastrodon, Bewear and Ferroseed) heavily relies on 'I hope the Barbaracle doesn't run x-move' in ordner to check it. And Roxiee also mentioned something that is really important - the screens you have on your side. Besides maybe Toxic, Haze or Roar/Whirlwind and fishing for a Scald-burn what would these 'checks' do to Barbaracle in the first place? The best check in this regard was Bewear which still only had a 31% chance to OHKO -1 Barbaracle behind Reflect (assuming the Barbaracle doesn't run Superpower/Cross Chop). That is as reliant as hoping your opponent misses Hurricane or Focus Blast.
The problem with Barbaracle is the fact that you will face it mostly behind Reflect and Light Screen which makes revengekilling with moves like First Impression not reliable at all. Both of the mentioned First Impressions only do somewhat around 40% with a high roll and die afterwards.

3. The state of screens right now
I wouldn't call it ruined but rather heavily weakened. Losing Barbaracle is a big hit for screens HO as it easily was the best absuer (obviously lol). If you really feel the need of replacing it, Carracosta would probably be the best one, even tho it is way slower which makes it fairly easy to revengekill with a good scarfer like Mienshao.
Therer is a plethora of other set up sweeper we have access to and adding dual screens to most of them can still be enough to overwhelm unprepared and even prepared teams. The biggest problem is probably the fact that the remaining screens abuser aren't as easy to use as Barbaracle was. They don't just come in and sweep on the spot; most of them have more counterplay but that was kinda the reason Barbaracle got banned in the first place so this should be obvious.

Tl;dr: I like Barb being gone, as even the mentioned counterplay was shacky and not reliable; tho dual screens HO is not unplayable atm just not as good as it was with Barb.

enjoy the holidays, everyone! merry christmas :)
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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After the last wave of bans, I feel like we've rooted out the most problematic things in the tier and it's about time we talk about Cresselia.
Cresselia  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White
In the few days since our most recent bans, this mon has shown time and time again how broken it, refusing to die to any neutral attack, and even super effective ones can almost never outright KO this demon. Just taking a look at it's stats, 120/120/130 is STUPID bulky, and with access to reliable, albeit bad, recovery in Moonlight, this mon becomes an unkillable wall, able to withstand just about every single attack with ease. At the same time, the solution isn't just to run a strong, slow breaker to mess it up because of it's blazing fast (or at least for a fat wall) speed tier of 85. Meaning, with slight investment, it can outspeed a ton of our most powerful breakers and 1v1 or KO a lot, such as Pangoro, which on paper eats it alive. It also has powerful team support tools in options like Lunar Dance, T wave, Toxic, Trick Room, Future Sight, etc making this thing a pain to deal with. At the same time, it has powerful offensive options to run through fatter teams, primarily in SuBCM or CM Rest sets, and with its stupendous bulk, it can set up on almost every slightly passive mon in the tier. On the downsides though, it's pure Psychic type can make it an awkward wall to add to teams and it can be very passive offensively at times with its base 75 SpA, but when it's thrown on a team, it's terrifying.

TLDR

PROS
  • Stupid bulk
  • Great team support options​
  • Ability means it can't be worn down by spike stack/T spike​
  • Consistent recovery​
  • Offensive threat to and on fatter builds with Sub/Rest CM​
  • Fast af with base 85​
  • Basically impossible to KO in one, let alone two, hits​
CONS
  • Pure Psychic typing is weird
  • Not super splashable/hard to fit sometimes
  • 75 SpA makes it very passive at times
I want to know what everyone thinks of Cress right now. Is it too much for the tier? Too hard to use consistently? Whatever you feel tell me! I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Personally, I want to see this gone some time soon, whether as part of a final ban slate or as the first suspect test we do. This mon is too good to be here and is busted imo.
 
I'm loving roserade rn. With the bans removing mons like tornadus and slowbro galar i feel roserade now can have its time to shine. Its a very good setter of spikes and loves putting the mons its scared of to sleep. Also its stab moves are very strong with a 125 spa stat with its leaf storms even threatening steels and poisons. I feel like this mon can be on the rise with usage aswell as vileplume and dragalge. Heres a team ive been using with roserade and its turning out pretty well https://pokepast.es/7b3a867192109c3b so thanks for reading my small bad post about roserade and feel free to share thoughts and reply. Have a good day to you all :)
 

Luck O' the Irish

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this is gonna be a rambly post cause im not sure where to begin but building in this tier rn is fucking miserable. some of this stems i think from some mons that probably could have been banned in this past slate and some of it i honestly have no idea what to do about. (for the record, im going to be approaching this from the perspective of building balance).

so problem number 1 as i see, is there are two stealth rockers that can be used unless you want to start off in a massive hole in the builder: raj and zong. both of them provide so much more defensive utility than the others that its mostly pointless to go around them. diancie is also decent but even then i find myself throwing like an av raj on the team somewhere to compensate. the psychic, dragon, and fairy resists provided by these 2 mons are just too damn good to pass up on realistically. they both provide some unique things, w raj having a damn good offensive presence and zong adding ground immune + ability to use tox and fitting a number of 4th moves that can be tailored to the team: protect so its team is less vulnerable to certain breakers, eq for electrics, psychic for plume, and body press for raj and goro. however, both mons have two main flaws: they leave u w/o a volt immune (which has often been filled by the rocker in past metas) and leave you vulnerable to dark, fighting, and ghost type breakers.

for the volt immune: most of the ground types in this tier suck ass now bc they leave u exposed af to cress, sigilyph, noivern, etc. as far as i see it you have like flygon, palossand, golurk, and gastro. palossand isnt terrible, but it still more or less requires a raj or zong to fulfill the gaps it leaves. gastro does some nice things between being able to blanket check waters, dragons, and fires, but has a pretty big issue in being passive as shit, losing to both zong and raj (if power whip) and still getting blown back by all our offensive electrics- boomburst toxtricity 2hkos even if max sp def. golurk is a great breaker but cant check any of the fighters really. so in terms of pure utility flygon is gonna be the pick here most of the time. good speed tier, can do some ok things w cb, and can win some games w dd. while i dont think volt immunes are mandatory necessarily, having toxtricity (and to an extent heliolisk) and a bunch of other perfect voltturns mons make it extremely risky to not do so currently.

now we need to solve another issue: we get owned by fighters. mienshao, bewear, and pangoro are all massive threats that need to be accounted for. and here's the problem: only plume and sylveon have the bulk to hope to switch into these more than once. and even then, bewear can still get around these w/o too much of an issue, pangoro means sylveon is at risk of getting ohkod, and mienshao can pivot around us endlessly thanks to regen, so we'll want to make sure we have something that can maybe switch in w the right prediction, outspeed, and ohko. this can be our own mienshao, noivern, sigi, or cress (which has the bulk to win 1v1 vs any of these).

to round out the team we throw on a breaker, this can be whatever we want for the most part, and then something bulky enough that can keep up momentum. this can be milo, golisopod, dhelmise, arcanine, noivern, talonflame, we have some options.

ultimately the second you deviate from this formulaic style of building, is that you risk autolosing to something like cress, mienshao, sigilyph at team preview. and even w this, sigilyph can still own depending on the set (flame orb cm air slash), mienshao still puts a ton of pressure (particularly if it's LO pjab and we dont have plume). mienshao is imo way too hard to punish for a mon w its speed tier and power. the only way to reliably stop it defensively is to hope you can effect spore sleep or para onto it w plume. thats about it. gl if you run into mienshao + sap sipper goodra or smth that blocks strength sap; eventually u will succumb to sr and mindless uturning

cress and sigi are also threats that can win from team preview. sub cm cress is a nightmare to deal with unless u have zong or raj. and even then it can beat them if youre able to get a knock on either. ultimately cress is kept in line by its lack of power which means a lot of teams can respond immediately or pp stall it w stuff like milo, sylveon, talonflame. cress can run psyshock or stored power to get around these at the cost of sub or immediate recovery, which are both viable options. sigi can also just get around things that want to deal w it by spreading burns, and its better power make it able to break everything once it gets boost, at the downside of much worse bulk. while im not convinced either are broken yet, i do think they kind of enforce the formulaic teambuilding.

the other thing that sucks to me is im not sure what the solve on this is. i do think mienshao is broken (poh does a good job outlining my general thought process). u have a scarfer w a perfect speed tier that can potentially break for itself and make progress by getting rocks up -> knocking the fighting switchin -> spam uturn. and w regen you cant make progress vs it. throw on LO and all the sudden you can just eliminate sylveon or flyers w poison jab/stone edge if u so choose. ultimately the same teambuilding issues remain w or w/o shao, however. i think this is likely the case w everything else on the slate.

i'd like to hear ppl's thoughts on how they deal with making teams rn, as revving up the builder the past few weeks for me has turned into groundhog's day (1993) where i create teams that share at least 3 mons with every other team i make that all lose to flame orb cm airslash sigilyph. my mind has turned into a bowl of vichyssoise and if i have to watch another game of sylveon/raj/flygon/mienshao/milotic/filler i might get permanently trapped in the void, rambling to anyone who passes by how things were better back when we just threw sandaconda on teams to check silvally


so this post isnt just a stream of bitching, i'd like to point out a mon i feel underrated currently:

:braviary: is a cool mon that can check a lot of threatening offensive mons and pressure the opposing team. here's a list of good things it can do:
  • walling dhelmise and golurk in particular
  • good bulk and recovery to soft check a lot of things like noivern and flygon
  • potentially open up holes for other mons w a strong brave bird and cc.
  • punish defog, sylveon's moonblast, and vileplumes strength sap with defiant
  • access to sub and bulk up allow brav to punch holes midgame or clean teams: can set up pretty reliably on both raj and zong, and has the power to punish initial switchins like toxtricity fairly well.
generally speaking, ive found jolly nature w enough speed for max bewear (96 spe evs w jolly), max hp, rest in sp def to be pretty nice. ive also gone adamant on defog sets to have a more immediately threatening brave bird and cc. i havent rly seen anyone else run it and i def have to recommend it.
 
Don't mind me, just posting my personal viability rankings for the current SS NU metagame :psywoke:.

S

S rank Pokemon are the best of the best and are usable in any team or structure. They define the metagame and no other Pokemon available can do what they do. They require no support to utilize and are capable of supporting teams extremely well. You are doing your opponent a favor by not using these Pokemon.

:copperajah: Copperajah
:mienshao: Mienshao

A+

A+ ranked Pokemon are staples in the current metagame but their offensive/defensive presence is less notable than S rank Pokemon, yet one should consider them without hesitation when building. They are all capable in their own right, easy to use, and proficient in providing great support while requiring little to no support.

:bewear: Bewear
:dragalge: Dragalge
:pangoro: Pangoro
:porygon-z: Porygon-Z
:starmie: Starmie
:vileplume: Vileplume

A

A Rank Pokemon are a less capable than A+ because they are either more limited in overall capabilities and roles or have exploitable flaws, but the team utility/function they provide can't be matched. They are all very capable offensively/defensively. A rank Pokemon may require support to work.

:celebi: Celebi
:diancie: Diancie
:gastrodon: :gastrodon-east: Gastrodon
:goodra: Goodra
:noivern: Noivern
:sigilyph: Sigilyph
:toxtricity: :toxtricity-low-key: Toxtricity

A-

A- rank Pokemon have glaring flaws but maintain unique capabilities that enable them to be large threats in the current meta, creating powerful offensive/defensive pairings. Pokemon in this rank will require support to be utilized properly.

:bronzong: Bronzong
:dhelmise: Dhelmise
:indeedee-f: Indeedee-F
:milotic: Milotic
:mudsdale: Mudsdale
:porygon2: Porygon2
:shiftry: Shiftry
:sylveon: Sylveon
:weezing: Weezing
:zoroark: Zoroark

B+

B+ rank have a more specific function in the metagame that they are capable of fulfilling quite well. While they boast great capabilities, they require more support to work than A- rank Pokemon. These Pokemon are limited to specific roles/archetypes and/or require a lot of support to be utilized properly.

:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:blastoise: Blastoise
:comfey: Comfey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:flygon: Flygon
:golisopod: Golisopod
:golurk: Golurk
:inteleon: Inteleon
:talonflame: Talonflame

B

B rank Pokemon are far more limited in how they can be utilized, either fulfilling very specific roles, and requiring a lot of support to work well. Their success in their role is less of guarantee as well.

:araquanid: Araquanid
:articuno-galar: Articuno-Galar
:charizard: Charizard
:decidueye: Decidueye
:gigalith: Gigalith
:guzzlord: Guzzlord
:heliolisk: Heliolisk
:mantine: Mantine
:palossand: Palossand
:salazzle: Salazzle
:tyrantrum: Tyrantrum

B-

B- rank Pokemon have obvious flaws with limited capabilities and are outclassed by higher ranked Pokemon. They fulfill very specific roles and are not easily put into a team. They are very hard to use and requires a LOT of team support.

:escavalier: Escavalier
:machamp: Machamp
:ninjask: Ninjask
:raichu-alola: Raichu-Alola
:roserade: Roserade
:sceptile: Sceptile
:scrafty: Scrafty

C

C rank Pokemon are viable, but you are probably better off trying another Pokémon than using these. They have unique niches and are usable on teams tailored to support them. C rank Pokemon can find success against certain match ups, but their success is not a guarantee.

:arcanine: Arcanine
:espeon: Espeon
:quagsire: Quagsire
:xatu: Xatu

Honorable mentions:

:aurorus: Aurorus
:pincurchin: Pincurchin
:swirlix: Swirlix
 
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EonX

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this is gonna be a rambly post cause im not sure where to begin but building in this tier rn is fucking miserable. some of this stems i think from some mons that probably could have been banned in this past slate and some of it i honestly have no idea what to do about. (for the record, im going to be approaching this from the perspective of building balance).

so problem number 1 as i see, is there are two stealth rockers that can be used unless you want to start off in a massive hole in the builder: raj and zong. both of them provide so much more defensive utility than the others that its mostly pointless to go around them. diancie is also decent but even then i find myself throwing like an av raj on the team somewhere to compensate. the psychic, dragon, and fairy resists provided by these 2 mons are just too damn good to pass up on realistically. they both provide some unique things, w raj having a damn good offensive presence and zong adding ground immune + ability to use tox and fitting a number of 4th moves that can be tailored to the team: protect so its team is less vulnerable to certain breakers, eq for electrics, psychic for plume, and body press for raj and goro. however, both mons have two main flaws: they leave u w/o a volt immune (which has often been filled by the rocker in past metas) and leave you vulnerable to dark, fighting, and ghost type breakers.

for the volt immune: most of the ground types in this tier suck ass now bc they leave u exposed af to cress, sigilyph, noivern, etc. as far as i see it you have like flygon, palossand, golurk, and gastro. palossand isnt terrible, but it still more or less requires a raj or zong to fulfill the gaps it leaves. gastro does some nice things between being able to blanket check waters, dragons, and fires, but has a pretty big issue in being passive as shit, losing to both zong and raj (if power whip) and still getting blown back by all our offensive electrics- boomburst toxtricity 2hkos even if max sp def. golurk is a great breaker but cant check any of the fighters really. so in terms of pure utility flygon is gonna be the pick here most of the time. good speed tier, can do some ok things w cb, and can win some games w dd. while i dont think volt immunes are mandatory necessarily, having toxtricity (and to an extent heliolisk) and a bunch of other perfect voltturns mons make it extremely risky to not do so currently.

now we need to solve another issue: we get owned by fighters. mienshao, bewear, and pangoro are all massive threats that need to be accounted for. and here's the problem: only plume and sylveon have the bulk to hope to switch into these more than once. and even then, bewear can still get around these w/o too much of an issue, pangoro means sylveon is at risk of getting ohkod, and mienshao can pivot around us endlessly thanks to regen, so we'll want to make sure we have something that can maybe switch in w the right prediction, outspeed, and ohko. this can be our own mienshao, noivern, sigi, or cress (which has the bulk to win 1v1 vs any of these).

to round out the team we throw on a breaker, this can be whatever we want for the most part, and then something bulky enough that can keep up momentum. this can be milo, golisopod, dhelmise, arcanine, noivern, talonflame, we have some options.

ultimately the second you deviate from this formulaic style of building, is that you risk autolosing to something like cress, mienshao, sigilyph at team preview. and even w this, sigilyph can still own depending on the set (flame orb cm air slash), mienshao still puts a ton of pressure (particularly if it's LO pjab and we dont have plume). mienshao is imo way too hard to punish for a mon w its speed tier and power. the only way to reliably stop it defensively is to hope you can effect spore sleep or para onto it w plume. thats about it. gl if you run into mienshao + sap sipper goodra or smth that blocks strength sap; eventually u will succumb to sr and mindless uturning

cress and sigi are also threats that can win from team preview. sub cm cress is a nightmare to deal with unless u have zong or raj. and even then it can beat them if youre able to get a knock on either. ultimately cress is kept in line by its lack of power which means a lot of teams can respond immediately or pp stall it w stuff like milo, sylveon, talonflame. cress can run psyshock or stored power to get around these at the cost of sub or immediate recovery, which are both viable options. sigi can also just get around things that want to deal w it by spreading burns, and its better power make it able to break everything once it gets boost, at the downside of much worse bulk. while im not convinced either are broken yet, i do think they kind of enforce the formulaic teambuilding.

the other thing that sucks to me is im not sure what the solve on this is. i do think mienshao is broken (poh does a good job outlining my general thought process). u have a scarfer w a perfect speed tier that can potentially break for itself and make progress by getting rocks up -> knocking the fighting switchin -> spam uturn. and w regen you cant make progress vs it. throw on LO and all the sudden you can just eliminate sylveon or flyers w poison jab/stone edge if u so choose. ultimately the same teambuilding issues remain w or w/o shao, however. i think this is likely the case w everything else on the slate.

i'd like to hear ppl's thoughts on how they deal with making teams rn, as revving up the builder the past few weeks for me has turned into groundhog's day (1993) where i create teams that share at least 3 mons with every other team i make that all lose to flame orb cm airslash sigilyph. my mind has turned into a bowl of vichyssoise and if i have to watch another game of sylveon/raj/flygon/mienshao/milotic/filler i might get permanently trapped in the void, rambling to anyone who passes by how things were better back when we just threw sandaconda on teams to check silvally


so this post isnt just a stream of bitching, i'd like to point out a mon i feel underrated currently:

:braviary: is a cool mon that can check a lot of threatening offensive mons and pressure the opposing team. here's a list of good things it can do:
  • walling dhelmise and golurk in particular
  • good bulk and recovery to soft check a lot of things like noivern and flygon
  • potentially open up holes for other mons w a strong brave bird and cc.
  • punish defog, sylveon's moonblast, and vileplumes strength sap with defiant
  • access to sub and bulk up allow brav to punch holes midgame or clean teams: can set up pretty reliably on both raj and zong, and has the power to punish initial switchins like toxtricity fairly well.
generally speaking, ive found jolly nature w enough speed for max bewear (96 spe evs w jolly), max hp, rest in sp def to be pretty nice. ive also gone adamant on defog sets to have a more immediately threatening brave bird and cc. i havent rly seen anyone else run it and i def have to recommend it.
I'm gong to try and address these one topic at a time as I've been using a balance / bulky offense team. It does kinda stick to this formula, but I've been using a couple of moves on defensive mons to try and keep them from being easy targets to take advantage of, which I will bring up when necessary.

Point 1: I can't argue the Rocker issue. My own team started with Diancie, but basically meant it had no way to deal with Dragalge at all and Diancie's Fire resistance + Dragon immunity, while nice, didn't help much. That said, I feel Rocker Raj is pretty lackluster imo as it thrives off of turning its resistances into offense that's hard to switch into. Like, it isn't bad, but I feel there's a pretty significant opportunity cost and basically mandates hazard control in order to get the most out of it. Toxtricity is a pain in the neck, but between Zong (with EQ) and CB Flygon, you can manage it. This is also where Flip Turn Milo and Corrosive Gas Vileplume can also chip in as they go from being pretty safe switch ins for Tox to pretty annoying for it as Milo can generate momentum as it comes in and Vileplume can remove its item and potentially make it easier to switch into.

CB Flygon pairs really nicely with Flip Turn Milotic as they do a pretty solid job of preventing a lot of the annoying breakers (Toxtricity, Pangoro, Bewear) from getting comfortable switch ins. This also helps to address some of the VoltTurn issues Balance teams can run into as this stems from defensive Pokemon being too passive (which you bring up with Gastrodon and is 100% valid) as Milotic can now use its bulk to pivot in and build momentum while preventing something from trying to get into position against with CB Flygon backing it up by immediately forcing Electrics back out. Granted, this isn't perfect as it counts on you having momentum or being able to take back momentum and this is not always easy to do or maintain, but it gives you a legitimate chance to do so whereas without Flip Turn on Milotic, you lose the defensive pivot that can generate momentum and potentially get you back into a decent position.

While I won't argue the point with Fighting types much as this feels a lot like pre-dlc RU (now you know why RUBL was New Fight City) momentum is key against them. Again, this is where Flip Turn Milotic can really help as it can kind of handle Bewear and check Mienshao while Shao can get punished with potential Effect Spore Vileplume (seriously, this mon is so clutch rn) Now Pangoro, I'm not going to argue as defensive Sylveon is way too passive for my liking in this meta and outside of Sylveon and Comfey (destroyed by Vileplume and common Steels) nothing switches into Knock on a common Balance team (this includes my own) Like, a smart Pangoro can easily pick up kills against any balance team not running Comfey or Sylveon (most of them) if it's patient as even Vileplume is 2HKOed by CB Knock (for all you Panda users, Plume isn't a free switch in. Moonblast is a valid option and you will be deleted) I feel the key for balance teams against Panda is having a Pokemon that can generate momentum as it comes in (Flip Turn Milotic) punish it with a viable coverage option on an attempted switch in (Moonblast Plume, Body Press Zong) or have their own powerful breaker that can force a kill in return most times (your own Panda, Bewear, Specs Goodra, etc.)

Your point with Mienshao + sap sipper mon as well as Sigilyph and Cresselia is in fact why I adore Corrosive Gas Vileplume right now. While it can be difficult to get it off against Shao teams bc U-turn spam, removing Sigi's Flame Orb before it activates, removing Cress's Leftovers, and removing Specs from Dragalge and Goodra can be a huge game changer. Mind you, these are all Pokemon that don't anticiapte losing their items considering how poor they are against most Knock Off users and Gas is basically Knock Off minus damage. Even removing Choice Band from Pangoro and Tyrantrum on the switch can make them easy to 1v1 with Plume. It's seriously good, and while Moonblast is solid to shred Panda on the switch, I think you benefit way more overall from the utility of Corrosive Gas as it tends to remove items from Pokemon that don't anticipate losing their items and are very reliant on them to truly break through defensive cores. Again, similar to Flip Turn Milotic with momentum, it isn't fullproof or anything, but having the chance to fight back against these threats is way better than potentially losing at team preview because you have no real strategy other than "hope the opponent plays them poorly".

I'm honestly a bit surprised Shao is still here. It kind of gives me ORAS RU Mega Steelix vibes where it's incredibly hard to not only build a team without, but also play against. Like, sure, it isn't the most threatening Pokemon in the tier offensively (I think Pangoro is way harder to handle defensively) but absolutely nothing comes close to being as easy to just slap on a team and see it make the team better imo. For those that aren't familiar with ORAS RU Mega Steelix, you basically knew what it was going to do but that didn't mean you were good against it. That's kind of the case with Mienshao rn. You know what it's going to be using (Knock and U-Turn with CC + coverage move when itn eeds it) but that doesn't necessarily mean you can actively dissuade it form doing what it wants to do in a reliable fashion.

And for those curious, here's the 2 sets I kept mentioning throughout:


Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap
- Corrosive Gas / Moonblast

Basically, don't run Sleep Powder Vileplume. Imo, it makes it way to easy to take advantage of once it sleeps something (if it sleeps something) Both Corrosive Gas and Moonblast both give Plume utility against potential switch ins that could heavily threaten itself and defensive partners.


Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Recover
- Haze / Toxic

Similar to RU right now, I really don't like defensive Pokemon that are passive. While I don't believe offensive Milotic is too viable, Flip Turn helps it to fix the passive issue as Water immune Pokemon typically don't switch into it outside of Heliolisk and Toxicroak. Haze and Toxic are both good; just pick the move your team benefits more from. I like Haze for annoying stuff like CM Cress and CM Sigi (assuming no Energy Ball) but Toxic is still nice for oppsing bulky Waters, Goodra, and at least doing something with Heliolisk upon switch in.
 
Howdy, everybody! NU hot take taker Catalisador here to share my newest realization with you guys: Sigilyph is an extremely mediocre and overhyped pokémon in the current SS NU metagame.

:ss/sigilyph:


Pros:
- Magic Guard, making it immune to residual damage from the likes of Stealth Rock and status conditions;
- Access to decent coverage moves in the likes of Heat Wave and Energy Ball.

Cons:
- Mediocre speed tier, leaving it easily outsped by common NU metagame threats such as Mienshao and Flygon;
- Lack of immediate offensive prowess thanks to a mediocre 103 Special Attack stat;
- Lack of defensive utility thanks, among other factors, to mediocre bulk.

Since I've started using Sigilyph, I've been personally extremely disappointed. It seems to be a pokémon that wants to do a job that is better done by other pokémon currently available in the current SS NU metagame.

Pokémon that, arguably, outclass Sigilyph in diverse roles:

:ss/articuno-galar: :ss/starmie:

As an offensive attacker, Sigilyph strikes me as an inferior version of Starmie. Both its Choice Specs and Life Orb 3 Atks are outshined by Starmie's brilliant speed tier and superior immediate breaking capabilities thanks to a stronger secondary STAB move in Hydro Pump, access to arguably better coverage in Thunderbolt and a fantastic ability in Analytic to further enhance the starfish's toolkit.
Similarly, Articuno-Galar's ability to punish hazard removal while also providing immense immediate power thanks to a 125 SpA and access to Hurricane makes it a candidate for Sigilyph's spot on a team, in my eyes - and, in response to the comments that it lacks the coverage to muscle through the likes of Copperajah and Bronzong, a Choice Specs-boosted Shadow Ball is enough to 2HKO all Brozong variants and most Copperajah variants as well. Even when it comes to a Calm Mind + Roost scenario, Articuno-Galar strikes me as a potentially valuable option despite not having Magic Guard because of its superior bulk and damage potential.
Of course, Magic Guard negating residual damage is a pro of having Sigilyph on a team over the aforementioned pokémon but it doesn't strike me as a must-have characteristic. Other gimmicky sets such as Cosmic Power are also simply awful given how slow-paced they are (in the sense that it takes extremely long to actually do something and how they're easily exploitable).

I've personally really started to despise this pokémon after using it. I think it is extremely mediocre at what it does and, although it does have specific niches it fulfils, it doesn't strike me as a particularly valuable pokémon when better options such as Starmie and even potentially Articuno-Galar are around.

Edit: the team I'm using right now (click sprites for importable).
:ss/sigilyph: :ss/comfey: :ss/guzzlord: :ss/weezing: :ss/mienshao: :ss/copperajah:
 
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