np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

[DarkNostalgia]

You forgot Sdef Slowbro, Victini, Tangrowth, Bronzong, Phys Def Jirachi, Bulky Scizor and Gourgeist XL

Bronzong actually loses to Metagross (what can it do to it?), and the others, like sdef slowbro, gourgeist xl aren't particularly viable.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I have some spidey tenses rn (no pun intended) that with MMeta gone, the meta will be unbalanced too.

See, what i think everyone forgets is that we have to know how the meta will function without MMeta.

The Suspect ladder is a fine example of how the meta changes, but we lay confused and stumped on using a pokemon.

Now, what do I think will happen if MMeta is banned? Keldeo will be much, much more powerful. We will see more usage in Stall and maybe some MGarde usage also. Then, I see MDiancie. MMeta was one of the few mons that held it back. MDiancie will tear ass in this meta now. I understand its overpowered, but it has answers in the shape of Counter Skarm, Reflect Type Starmie (if it doesnt have EQ, which few do) Hippo if MMeta doesnt run GK, Bisharp checks it with Rocks up, and there are a few others like a plethora of bulky waters (if it doesnt run GK, again.)

Now, this guy is definetly too good for the metagame, but we have to realize we are gonna ban more pokemon after this. Believe it or not, I really think MMeta balances the meta, too. I'm just worried if this mon gets banned, you guys will get the bad and make a worse metagame. But, for now, dont ban him. He has answers, we are too self centered to use them.

 

[oryxslayer]

Bronzong actually loses to Metagross (what can it do to it?), and the others, like sdef slowbro, gourgeist xl aren't particularly viable.

If bronzong is running earthquake, then it can beat mega metagross, kinda.
This is the best possible scenario, hasty on a grass knot set:
4 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 102-122 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can kinda work, but who would keep in their megagross for 3 turns while doing nothing??

 

[Silverangel]

I still need to get my rating up, but I'm gonna put in my two cents right now.

I don't think Mega Metagross is broken enough for a ban. It's not the thing that wrecks every inch of the metagame like past banned mons have once done. Sure, it hits like the giant anvil it is, and it's coverage moves cover pretty much everything it needs to. Problem is, there are only so many coverage moves MegaGross can run before it hits the four moveslot limit. After that, there are obvious checks once the coverage moves are figured out. And it's not like switching in Skarmory into Mega Lucario only to realize it was running a special set (followed by being sweeped by it because you didn't prepare for that set). These coverage moves cover different checks, but ultimately there are those that can wall or check MegaGross in the end. Also, it takes up a Mega Slot, making players unable to use other solid Mega Evolutions such as the MegaZards, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, etc.

However, I do agree that MegaGross is insanely powerful. Many walls just fall to it's sheer power. Offensive teams have to watch their step or risk getting their backs broken by this steel spider truck. But several factors, such as low base 70 speed, no recovery, bad set-up moves, etc., keep it from being a total monster that eats the metagame. In the end, I would vote no ban.

 

[Backburst]

Maybe even bring some of the lower level Ubers like Genesect and regular Mewtwo into it?

No. A thousand times a thousand no.

1. This is not the place to talk about reintroducing mon's that have been banned or theorizing about what a new gen of Pokemon might bring us.

2. Both of those mon's are only "lower level", due to Primal Don and the like monopolizing Ubers. They have consistently shown they have no place in OU. Mewtwo should never be considered, and Genesect will run Scarf and be as mindless as he was when he first got the boot in X/Y.

This thread is just for discussing if Megagross needs the boot or not. I'd recommend playing a few games in the suspect ladder to get a feel of the game right now, and lurk here to read the walls of theorymoning people are posting to get a better idea of if the game will be better or worse with Gross gone.

Other than that, welcome to Smogon.

 

[Toljik]

man hammer arm drops and miss chances aren't really issues and you can't compare those little problems to the amount of work it does. Ofc many of the mons you listed, if not every, can beat metagross if both at full life 1v1, but how many of them can safely switch into it?
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 148-175 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
it does NOT have any problem at mega evolving, i can say it from personal experience as i used it a lot, it forces such a huge amount of pokemon to switch that you'll rather easily get the mega evo for free; also i don't know why you say "bad typing", 9 resistances and 1 immunity seems kinda good to me, even if it has weaknesses to common types like fire ground or dark

Lots of Pokemon have little to nothing that can switch into them, in OU. But there's a lot more to brokenness than that.

Greninja had no counters either, but even if your Pokemon could switch in safely, it would be #rekt by Greninja's infinite STAB moves. Genesect wore down all of its checks with U-turn. Mawile pushed through checks through sheer ridiculous force. Metagross NEEDS its coverage moves, and that makes it heavily reliant on prediction and a bit risky. Steel and Psychic are hardly the most spammable of STABs.

You're right about its typing, though. It's surprisingly uncommon to see a Pokemon this good with no double weaknesses.

 

[Sablenite]

It is possible to play around, even with stall, I give you Naive Nature calcs:
Unburned:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-Wash: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Talonflame: 181-214 (50.4 - 59.6%)
252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 452-532 (117.4 - 138.1%)
0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 172-204 (42.5 - 50.4%)

Burned:
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-Wash: 65-77 (21.4 - 25.4%)
0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%)
252 Atk Tough Claws burned Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Talonflame: 90-107 (25 - 29.8%)
252 Atk burned Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 226-266 (58.7 - 69%)

 

[unit976]

I want to know what pokemon that aren't good at the moment, will become better with Mega metagross gone. Mega metagross isn't dictating the meta game like Aegislash was, creating a list of Pokemon that are unusable and tossing them into uu. It can be debated whether its as splashable on every team like Genesect but in all honesty its not, considering it takes a mega slot and has the options to have great coverage, but it doesn't. On paper it seems like it has 0 switch ins, that it can just kill everything one by one, but its not a Mega Mawile. I mean Pokemon like charizard x, mega gallade, landorus-i, gengar, have very little to no switch-ins and that doesn't necessarily make them suspect worthy. Don't get me wrong it is powerful, which is why its being suspected. I just think we should look a bit broader and deeper before making a decision.

 

[Master B8s]

I want to know what pokemon that aren't good at the moment, will become better with Mega metagross gone. Mega metagross isn't dictating the meta game like Aegislash was, creating a list of Pokemon that are unusable and tossing them into uu. It can be debated whether its as splashable on every team like Genesect but in all honesty its not, considering it takes a mega slot and has the options to have great coverage, but it doesn't. On paper it seems like it has 0 switch ins, that it can just kill everything one by one, but its not a Mega Mawile. I mean Pokemon like charizard x, mega gallade, landorus-i, gengar, have very little to no switch-ins and that doesn't necessarily make them suspect worthy. Don't get me wrong it is powerful, which is why its being suspected. I just think we should look a bit broader and deeper before making a decision.

I would argue Metagross has what I'll call "an aegislash effect" but not as influential. I will say Aegislash just cock blocked so many pokemon that they were either unviable, or had to run sub optimal moves just so they could threaten the sword in some way. Metagross is pretty much restricting fairies. Clefable is the biggest example, base metagross will outspeed and meteor mash will OHKO max defense clefable, metagross still has to be aware of flamethrower and it won't like taking the hit. The point Im making is that most fairies that don't have a way to threaten metagross will give it a free switch and in a sense, make them dead weight, I see the resemblance with metagross holding back the fairies in the tier, much like aegislash held back, well pretty much 70% of the tier back in X/Y.

 

[unit976]

I would argue Metagross has what I'll call "an aegislash effect" but not as influential. I will say Aegislash just cock blocked so many pokemon that they were either unviable, or had to run sub optimal moves just so they could threaten the sword in some way. Metagross is pretty much restricting fairies. Clefable is the biggest example, base metagross will outspeed and meteor mash will OHKO max defense clefable, metagross still has to be aware of flamethrower and it won't like taking the hit. The point Im making is that most fairies that don't have a way to threaten metagross will give it a free switch and in a sense, make them dead weight, I see the resemblance with metagross holding back the fairies in the tier, much like aegislash held back, well pretty much 70% of the tier back in X/Y.

Yeah this very true, and I'm not saying you're wrong it does make fairies pretty meh, but that still doesn't make them completely unviable 5 fairies are currently A - A+ on the viability ranking thread, which speaks for itself, clefable is still very very good just not against mega metagross. Which is completely logical.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I would argue Metagross has what I'll call "an aegislash effect" but not as influential. I will say Aegislash just cock blocked so many pokemon that they were either unviable, or had to run sub optimal moves just so they could threaten the sword in some way. Metagross is pretty much restricting fairies. Clefable is the biggest example, base metagross will outspeed and meteor mash will OHKO max defense clefable, metagross still has to be aware of flamethrower and it won't like taking the hit. The point Im making is that most fairies that don't have a way to threaten metagross will give it a free switch and in a sense, make them dead weight, I see the resemblance with metagross holding back the fairies in the tier, much like aegislash held back, well pretty much 70% of the tier back in X/Y.

Yes and no, Aegislash also had the ability to run, for example an effective sub+toxic set- it wasnt only viable in an offensive role. though i do see what you mean, its just that aegis had some extra things going for him, like recovery in leftovers as well as kings shield.

Other than that, welcome to Smogon.

I know this is not the topic at hand or even related to the subject of the thread, but can we please be careful with that phrase? it makes you seem like a total d-bag. Also, you only have 20 posts; I feel like you certainly aren't one to be throwing "welcome to smogon" around.

But lets not get off topic and infracted.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Ooh boy. . .

"You have to prepare for it"

That would mean I should prepare for Talonflame, or Rotom-W, or Keldeo, or Landorus-I. I'm already doing that, aren't I? How on earth is Mega-Metagross any different?

Firstly, this is one of the most evasive things I have read in this thread by far, and it's not helping your cause in the slightest, and here's why. Do Talonflame, Keldeo, and Landorus-I force you to carry obscure Counters such as counter (COUNTER) Skarmory? Are they capable of taking hits from their checks and killing in return? Does Rotom-W threaten the entire tier of 2HKOs? The answer to those is a quite obvious no. So do not ever make that comparison again if you plan on swaying peoples opinions on a suspect.

Its time I came in on this issue myself, we're looking into a pokemon that is extremely bulky and capable of dealing out massive damage while at a somewhat decent speed within the 100-110 tier. This effectively gives it very ideal speed to work with along with ideal bulk to back it up. A massive physical attack stat is very nice, however, look at what it's hitting people with, at best it's a shaky 90% accuracy attack that lowers its speed upon use. The damn thing is powerful but it's attacks on their own are not, the hax actually working both ways behind them as all the attacks M-metagross are given are very much miss capable.

So what you're saying is everything amazing BUT it's accuracy of its moves is what makes it shaky. Well shit, Play rough and Fire fang have 90 and 95% accuracy respectively and sucker punch requires the opponent to attack first, all three of its moves are shaky, let's bring Mega Mawile back. Accuracy has never, and will never be a good argument, so I wouldn't bring that up either.

We're dealing with a Pokemon that can dish out plenty of hits, but unless ideal conditions are set, it doesn't often seem to 1HKO things (People are posting calcs willy-nilly on this thread), most of the pokemon in OU are fit to handle this thing anyway, and it has literally 0 recovery options. Boosting is limited to agility and hone claws, so all that's left are it's coverage moves.

Something does not have to OHKO the entire metagame to be considered broken. Not everything being banned needs to be Mega Mence. Hell, Greninja didn't OHKO OU, but it did 2HKO the tier outside of a couple mons, much like MegaGross. Coincidentally ninja didn't have Recovery options or boosting options. So again, a Pokemon does not have to be Huge power Arceus to be ban worthy.

The one argument I am seeing alot of is the 4MSS, it cannot cover everything like Greninja could. That means some sort of type of pokemon will be able to laugh in its face as it plucks away at it.

Problem with this is, it doesn't have 4MSS nearly as much as everyone seems to be playing it up to be. The standard set of Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm, Grass knot is more than enough to 2HKO everything aside from a select Few Pokemon. That number being VERY small. Now, no, it doesn't have Protean, but Tough claws is pretty damn close to STAB on everything. Making its power ridiculous on all the moves it tends to carry. It hardly has 4MSS when it can just 2HKO everything that isn't a dedicated counter.

Meta-metagross is powerful, relatively fast, and bulky, however it's movepool isn't so widespread that it's unpredictable, it cannot run everything at one time so there are flaws, and on top of that it's actual power behind those attacks is limited. It has an Achilles heel in the form of it's coverage and attack power.

Now, this is just. . . filled with holes. It's movepool doesn't have to be predictable. Though it is unpredictable in some cases. Nothing can run everything at once so stop making that argument, it's the single worst crutch I have seen since the Aegislash ban and it's getting ridiculous. So since nothing can carry everything at once, everything has flaws, so therefore nothing is broken. So let's unban everything right? Of course not. See, the thing is when those flaws are MASSIVELY outweighed by the amazing attributes, so much in fact to where they almost are nonexistent, then there is a problem. No one is saying MEga Gross is the Gawd of all Pokemon and it is un-defeatable, but it doesn't need to be. A Pokemon does not have to win games by itself (although megagross can), it does not have to OHKO the entire OU tier, it does not have to be invincible it simply has to be too much for the OU tier. You said it yourself, it has everything it needs but its moves are shaky. Sorry, but that isn't convincing me of anything my friend.

 

[Daikuza]

NO BAN You guys are talking like every Metagross is Jolly,Adamant and Naive all at once and running
Meteor Mash,Zen Headbutt,Hammer Arm,Earthquake,Ice Punch,Thunder Punch,Bullet Punch,Agility,Grass Knot at the same time.
Every Metagross Build has its counters if not hard counters.

Thats like saying "let's bann Thundurus it has Thunderbold,HP Ice,Hp Fly,Knock Off,Hammer Arm,Grass Knot,Taunt U-turn at the same time and can kill everything with 353speed, it has no counters blabla"

Pokemon Showdown becomes more and more a boring pure-stall-game with the bann list.

 

[AM]

Lol at people using the "set of champions" argument to bash people on why M-Gross isn't unhealthy to the tier. Everyone here plays the same game it doesn't take a genius to realize you have 4 moves per Pokemon, everyone knows this so stop trying to use the "set of champions" aspect to prove your point about some sort of notion it has 4MSS. It's just petty at this point when you guys use this as the basis of your argument when people are simply trying to establish its versatility and nothing more. Also to the user above talking about Thundurus, you only drew one comparison from an offensive standpoint that failed to address Thundurus' SR weakness and lack of bulk so that logic while nice in your mindset isn't exactly the point. The point is, is that it still has all these options available to it on top of all of its positives it has, and we're talking about stuff that isn't even used on a consistent basis that makes these checks a liability such as Sub to not care at all about half the defensive checks to it. I know someone earlier said "we should let the meta settle a bit more". You know what happens when stuff like M-Meta is allowed to settled? It settles on the next best variant and then goes on to use w/e the hell works for it. Alomomola is the counter? Let's throw on Toxic on it. Scizor? HP Fire. Status is an issue? Refresh. Oh we're use to speedy M-Metagross so we make our builds based on that? Let's start adding some more bulk because they're gonna be switching out anyways assuming speedier variants and now I'm tanking hits I would've normally died to. You might be reading this and thinking this sounds silly and that there's no possible way that this would happen. You know what else sounded silly? Speedy Aegislash and that is just one example of various others that shows what happens when various past ubers are allowed to settle in the meta-game. Sure it can't hold everything at once, but once you stop looking at it from such a linear stand-point and take into account what it has not only for itself but the support its able to provide from what it has from an offensive and defensive stand-point then perhaps you'll get the idea where some of us pro ban sider people are coming from.

I'm not going to lie and act like you can't play around it cause that would be false since you can realistically beat it with meticulous playing and building and the anti-ban side is right on various aspects. The reason why I don't think M-Gross is healthy for the tier is because it's one of the epitomes of the power creep we've been provided with the coming of ORAS and Gen 6 in general so to speak and when Char-X and M-Pinsir start to look like a walk in the park in comparison to M-Gross that is where I'm convinced its too much for the tier. People can sort of accept the power creep aspect if they want but there is only so much I'm actually going to tolerate before I draw the line, and M-Gross is what I'm currently going to be drawing the line at this point in time.

 

[Alexey]

NO BAN You guys are talking like every Metagross is Jolly,Adamant and Naive all at once and running
Meteor Mash,Zen Headbutt,Hammer Arm,Earthquake,Ice Punch,Thunder Punch,Bullet Punch,Agility,Grass Knot at the same time.
Every Metagross Build has its counters if not hard counters.

Thats like saying "let's bann Thundurus it has Thunderbold,HP Ice,Hp Fly,Knock Off,Hammer Arm,Grass Knot,Taunt U-turn at the same time and can kill everything with 353speed, it has no counters blabla"

Pokemon Showdown becomes more and more a boring pure-stall-game with the bann list.

Actually, that is exactly what we would have said if Thundurus had at least two of (1) resisting Stealth Rock, (2) having a base 145 attack and a pseudo-LO on everything, and (3) a Skarmory-esque bulk. I am myself leaning heavily towards no ban, but please, don't use 4MSS as an argument, it's actually an argument for ban - it can and often does punch holes through a team with its coverage, because you often will not know what coverage it has. Or you will know it and still won't ever have a safe switch-in, depending on the match-up.

 

[TheHoundofDoom]

NO BAN You guys are talking like every Metagross is Jolly,Adamant and Naive all at once and running
Meteor Mash,Zen Headbutt,Hammer Arm,Earthquake,Ice Punch,Thunder Punch,Bullet Punch,Agility,Grass Knot at the same time.
Every Metagross Build has its counters if not hard counters.

Thats like saying "let's bann Thundurus it has Thunderbold,HP Ice,Hp Fly,Knock Off,Hammer Arm,Grass Knot,Taunt U-turn at the same time and can kill everything with 353speed, it has no counters blabla"

Pokemon Showdown becomes more and more a boring pure-stall-game with the bann list.

At least with thundurus, its not that bulky, so if it fails to OHKO a pokemon, which is more than likely to happen, then you have a good chance to knock it out before you do.

In MMetagross' case however its not only powerful in attack,sp att, speed, and lets not forgot BOTH DEFENSES. And the problem isn't the fact everyone will bring the same metagross with all 9 of those moves in its arsenal at once. Its the fact you don't know which 4 moves it has making it very risky. Its like aegislash having its own mini game called choose wrong and die, but you will most likely die.

Pokemon thats very good in attack and speed would normally won't be able to take down a pokemon with good attack and defense, and instead the faster poke would get knocked out because of its poor defense, although at least you get to put damage on that bulky poke. For example Gengar and cresselia. Gengar has a bunch of sp attack and speed while cresselia has more special bulk. Gengar will always outspeed and pull off a shadow ball, but wont take it out however cresselia, who moves second, will end up killing genar with 1 phychic. With metagross having power stats ALL AROUND he will move first most of the time, and if it doesnt quite take it out that bulkier pokemon will not be able to ko it, and on the next turn metagross has a better chance koing it the next time.

oh and calling BAN IT NOW!

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Alomomola is the counter? Let's throw on Toxic on it. Scizor? HP Fire. Status is an issue? Refresh. Oh we're use to speedy M-Metagross so we make our builds based on that? Let's start adding some more bulk because they're gonna be switching out anyways assuming speedier variants and now I'm tanking hits I would've normally died to. You might be reading this and thinking this sounds silly and that there's no possible way that this would happen. You know what else sounded silly? Speedy Aegislash and that is just one example of various others that shows what happens when various past ubers are allowed to settle in the meta-game.

I am actually against banning it (more or less; I'm not completely decided), but I do agree with you on this, it will just adapt. The thing is though, toxic and refresh (and you also mentioned sub earlier, I think) SEVERELY limit its coverage. Hidden power fire just is so situational and relatively weak coming off of 105 SpA and w/o the tough claws boost that I really can't see the merit of it since it's really only useful against one mon.
Also, as I mentioned a few posts back, a defensive set really isn't that viable; it has no recovery and unlike aegis (a mon that many are comparing it to), it lacks the godly king shield. Not to mention, it has a purely offensive ability, it doesn't hurt it, obviously (lol), but it also doesn't grant it anything defensively, unlike, for example, Mega Aggron's filter. (I know that was a kind of weird example, it was just the first one I thought of).
Edit: Anyways, basically my point (in a roundabout way) is, that it isn't so incredibly versatile that it can just run ANY set, as it sounds like you are implying.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

With the versatility and speed of MMeta, this guy is broken. There are few counters. I get that. But, they are all shaky as fuck.

Here is the problem: We all know MMeta is broken. What we don't know is what will happen after the ban (if it happens)

Pokemon that once were stopped by MMeta now can roam freely. One thing to note: Faries. Every fairy no matter how much you like it will rise in usage and viability, and soon we will need to get more Steels.

Now, if we REALLY go into it, other Steels will see more usage to this imbalance. I can see Excadrill, Jirachi, Bisharp, etc. gaining usage tremendously. This will fill the imbalance and make a more balanced meta.

Keldeo will see more usage due to MMeta holding it back a bit. Sadly with all the Fairies Keldeo will probably plunge down and maybe go down to A+.

But, anyways. When MMeta leaves, I feel like he will balance the meta a lot. In fact, with the looks of it, all of the playstyles are equal. MMeta was the only one who looks ridiculously powerful. When he is gone, everything should fall into place. I'm just a bit worried that Fairies will be a little too good. But, we can't be too sure.

 

[AM]

I am actually against banning it (more or less; I'm not completely decided), but I do agree with you on this, it will just adapt. The thing is though, toxic and refresh (and you also mentioned sub earlier, I think) SEVERELY limit its coverage. Hidden power fire just is so situational and relatively weak coming off of 105 SpA and w/o the tough claws boost that I really can't see the merit of it since it's really only useful against one mon. Also, as I mentioned a few posts back, a defensive set really isn't that viable; it has no recovery and unlike aegis (a non that many are comparing it to), it lacks the godly king shield. Not to mention, it has a purely offensive ability, it doesn't hurt it, obviously (lol) but it also doesn't grant it anything defensively, unlike, for example, Mega Aggron's filter. (I know that was a kind of weird example, it was just the first one I thought of).

HP Fire is situational because its simply at this point in time not a common occurrence, which is understandable but doesn't change the fact that it's available and when Scizor is eventually used as the 'counter' this will be seen. These options you need to realize come back to my point about its utility as a team-mate which amplifies the effectiveness and viability of itself. I only used the Aegi comparison cause that was a quick and obvious one. Defensive set was implying a pivoting tool because the plethora of calcs in this thread were going off of its most linear set in the meta at this current point of time but failed to take into account any sort of adaptation that could occur, which is important to understand regardless of your stance on the suspect.

 

[Clone]

HP Fire is situational because its simply at this point in time not a common occurrence, which is understandable but doesn't change the fact that it's available and when Scizor is eventually used as the 'counter' this will be seen.

When running HP Fire you then have to give up Hammer Arm / EQ, which leaves you walled by every steel type bar scizor (even ferro has the bulk to switch into HP Fire, take a second, leech seed, then switch out with 30ish remaining). Either that or youre walled by every bulky water ever. The HP Fire argument is not a good one because its a niche option at best that makes gross weaker as a whole to get past only one of its counters.

no comment on the rest of your post tho.

 

[unit976]

HP Fire is situational because its simply at this point in time not a common occurrence, which is understandable but doesn't change the fact that it's available and when Scizor is eventually used as the 'counter' this will be seen. These options you need to realize come back to my point about its utility as a team-mate which amplifies the effectiveness and viability of itself. I only used the Aegi comparison cause that was a quick and obvious one. Defensive set was implying a pivoting tool because the plethora of calcs in this thread were going off of its most linear set in the meta at this current point of time but failed to take into account any sort of adaptation that could occur, which is important to understand regardless of your stance on the suspect.

No one is using HP fire for mega scizor currently so I don't see why that would change it is an option but its not the most beneficial option when the other moves are more versatile and help with other mons

 

[AM]

When running HP Fire you then have to give up Hammer Arm / EQ, which leaves you walled by every steel type bar scizor (even ferro has the bulk to switch into HP Fire, take a second, leech seed, then switch out with 30ish remaining). Either that or youre walled by every bulky water ever. The HP Fire argument is not a good one because its a niche option at best that makes gross weaker as a whole to get past only one of its counters.

no comment on the rest of your post tho.

When you look at it from this position sure you're right. When you start realizing that it's a 6v6 game and not a 1v1 game then there are many more factors that come in to play. The aspect of niche options only goes so far when you consider that teams and sets are designed for the purpose of winning by the means that are available, this being a means that is available. You can't just make the assumption its niche on a preconceived notion that builds won't take these factors into consideration and that the player facing down M-Gross is going to be aware of this from the get go. My point was towards its ability for adaptation which many brushed off in this thread and rode off the 4MSS argument.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Thing is, it can carry it. And it will adjust to whatever it needs to. Yes it drops coverage in some areas, but, (I hate bringing this demon's name up so often) just like Greninja, it carries what it needs to, to hit what it needs to. The lack of coverage or power is negligible when you leave other pokemon in range for another to come in and finish it off. Though yes, HP Fire is not used at all, it's still a possibility, and a very viable possibility to get past its would be counter. The point AM is attempting to make is, saying the meta should settle and adapt to MegaGross is a two way street, because MegaGross can easily adapt as well. Not alleviating the problem, but instead giving it a place to nuzzle in and get comfortable.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

People who need to muster past its would be counters. Ya know, like the same people that run counter on Skarmory.
You're missing the point however. The point is MegaGross has the ability to adapt to whatever is adapting to it. So, waiting it out and letting the "meta settle" is not a good way of looking at it.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

People who need to muster past its would be counters. Ya know, like the same people that run counter on Skarmory.
You're missing the point however. The point is MegaGross has the ability to adapt to whatever is adapting to it. So, waiting it out and letting the "meta settle" is not a good way of looking at it.

This is completely true. The point is, and always has been, that, while it is very adaptable, HP Fire is not a good example. The possibility of a bulky, slower set could be viable, but then it's basically just base Metagross with a little extra speed. I don't really think it's got WAY too many tricks left up its sleeve. It's kinda like keldeo in a way; it can run different sets, but they will probably be more or less similar even if the intent is slightly different. An example that doesn't completely fit these parameters would be agiligross, but it's not all that different either, and it loses significant coverage too.