np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[tehy]

So here's a serious question:

What do you do about Giratina-O running:
WoW + Earthquake + Stone Edge + Draco Meteor

The idea here's fairly simple; Will-o-Wisp is ridiculously powerful, crippling anything physical, constantly wearing down everything. Earthquake and Stone Edge are just meant to take care of almost anything that wouldn't mind switching into Will-o-Wisp, though either can be replaced by another move (Shadow Force takes care of Natural Cure Celebi / Starmie and Mega Garde, or at least forces them to switch to a resistance / immunity, letting you rack up hazard damage on even an immunity). Draco Meteor is just a general nuke that punches holes in everything, basically being a counter to the idea of 'i'm going to let 1 special attacker take the burn and keep switching in", and getting kills in general.

There are many variations of this; you could try Will-o-Wisp + Shadow Force + Draco Meteor + Stone Edge, or even replace Draco Meteor with Earthquake, or slot in Aura Sphere instead of Earthquake.

Overall, with the first moveset, Giratina-O can essentially burn or smash almost anything. The real problem here is just its insane bulk; offensive teams would generally beat something like this with revenge killing, and prevent it from coming in via offensive pressure, but it's questionable if that's a real possibility with Giratina-O. Its Trick immunity takes away another way for offense to cripple it, even though that's usually a desperation play.

Also, against stall, simple CM + Rest sets can be quite dangerous; 252 SpA / 252 Def can likely 2shot clefable as it comes in, preventing that from being an easy counter.

Overall, i'm not a big fan of this drop; i just think it's too powerful. However, if it ends up not being broken, then it'll be great, so let's hope :x

 

[Siggu]

I can see Giratina-O being a defensive Kyurem-B, in a sense. For their roles, they have awesome stats, a cool typing, a cool ability... and not much more, with some flaws (Common weaknesses and no recovery outside of Rest for Giratina; lack of physical Ice STAB, SR weakness and meh speed for Kyurem) that make their awesome traits not-so-awesome.

Worth testing, I say.

 

[SergioRules]

I don't use forums much but I would like to put a small opinion in.

To those saying Giratina-O is basically itemless: Griseous Orb: If holder is a Giratina, its Ghost- and Dragon-type attacks have 1.2x power.

Please explain to me how getting a 1.2x power boost to your STAB attacks (in addition to not being able to be knocked off) makes the Griseous Orb a "useless item."
Also the only things that can OHKO Gira-O are a Specs Sylveon's Pixilate Hyper Voice and Mega-Gardevoir's Pixilate Hyper Voice (in both scenarios, that was with no Sp. Def investment). That's at least in the calcs I've done of common OU sets, both of which can be killed by Shadow Force and/or Shadow Sneak. We will definitely see lots of extremely unconventional sets rise to power with this.

In spite of all that, I think maybe making Gira-O Ou could be plausible... Provided that we may ban just it's 120 BP Shadow Force. Because in almost all scenarios (bar Normal types and ferro) something on the opposing team is going to faint.

EDIT: 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-O: 522-614 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

okay there's three things that can OHKO Giratina-O

 

[Digital Sound]

There's not much needed to say about this, but I will include one important thing that AM's statement makes a lot and I can definitely agree with him on this. The tiering council are making a very smart decision to finally allow Giratina-O to become an OU Pokemon in the tier.

nuff said

 

[ChillyWilly]

I'm quite interested to see how this goes. On the one hand, it's bulk is easily among the best in the tier and it has a BST near that of the best Megas while not being limited by the one Mega rule. Combined with a wide movepool and pretty good mixed offensive stats, it would be a high tier threat.

In contrast, it can't hold an item and its ability is purely defensive, so its power will never reach the heights of the best. Its recover options are completely unreliable and both its STABs, the only attacks boosted by its item, have common resists and immunities. I'm always hesitant to click Outrage or Draco Meteor on any Mon with all the fairies and steels running about.

This could go either way, the only thing to do now is see how it fares in practice, something I'm going to get right to. Even if it is proven too much for the tier, I'm all for testing some of the lesser ubers who might fit in with the power creep being as it is. What some people need to remember is that this is a test to see if it IS broken in the current metagame. If it is? It won't come down, it's that simple. If not? We were worrying about nothing. No harm in seeing for ourselves.

 

[MilkyWay]

Wow, this is a big surprise. I clicked on this forum expecting to find a Mega Sableye suspect test and I was prepared to defend it, but now, I don't even know what to think. At a glance it seems too overcentralizing and reminds me a lot of Aegislash in a way, however, I won't let theorymon get in the way of forming my opinion

 

[Jaroda]

Hmm, interesting points how Giratina-O is immune to both Focus Blast and Earth Power, and has the raw bulk to survive HP Ice, which is a 3HKO without any HP or SpD investment. And man, 150/100/100 defenses with 6 resistances, no 4x weakness and 3 immunities? Even without Leftovers, that's impressive.

But what happens if it gets hit by Knock Off? Does it revert to regular Giratina?

 

[Minority]

Obviously success in Ubers does not equate to success in OU, but the last 5 mons suspected by OU and sent to Ubers currently sit at a viability of B or lower. By comparison, Giratina-O sits at A, and is one of the most popular methods of checking the biggest and baddest physical attackers in Ubers. The lack of instant recovery for Giratina-O does mean that it can't "wall" anything, however its bulk might be so great by OU standards that it could pull off something like Rest or Pain Split. Sure it might be able to blanket check a large variety of offensive OU threats, but that doesn't mean it's not still centralizing.

While Giratina-O is largely a utility mon in ORAS Ubers, I see it being used as an offensive mon down here. Giratina-O isn't really a formidable physical attacker in the current Ubers tier because by comparison it's setup moves are poor, and base 120 isn't that strong, but in OU Gris Orb STAB Shadow Force and Outrage own. Add Will-O-Wisp, Dragon Tail and all the moves at this Pokemon's disposal and you create a situation where pretty much nothing wants to switch in. This Pokemon potentially has the coverage to trump any given counter, which was largely the same reason Greninja was banned. For setup moves it has Calm Mind and Hone Claws, which to be fair by Ubers standards are poor choices, but they could see use in OU. The immunity to Knock Off effect and priority in the form of Shadow Sneak gives Giratina-O even more utility.

I can imagine Giratina-O becoming much like how Ubers views Primal Groudon; an strong attacker that also blanket checks a majority of the tier whose only major flaw that can be capitalized on is the lack of recovery. When I look at how Greninja and Deoxys-S were too strong for OU, two Pokemon whose only use in Ubers is as a suicide lead because they are so weak, and how Giratina-O has more depth to it than they do, then I can't help but feel that something is wrong. Sure people can claim that Mandibuzz can counter it (it doesn't) but just because a threat has a few specific counters does not mean that it is not centralizing. I doubt most of the people posting have any experience using Giratina-O in the ORAS metagame and as such have no idea what this mon is capable of. Time should tell exactly how this Pokemon interacts with the ORAS OU metagame.

 

[Enki]

On a more serious note
Giratina-Origin is actually a versatile threat, definitely S Rank imo, he can act as a powerful Calm Mind user, but also as a Defogger with access to Aura Sphere and WOW, as such, he would probably become the tier's main defogger, surpassing Latios, keldeo would surely enjoy having Giratina-o, most of Gira's checks are checked by Keldeo, both of them can also act as set up sweepers.
Another partner for him is Rocky Helmet Garchomp, being able to weaken majority of Giratina-o's checks by recoil and also setting up Stealth Rocks.
Defog Giratina's support would be greatly loved by anything that hates Stealth Rocks, mega Pinsir for example might see an usage rise, since Gira acts as a defogger but also as a check for Mega Metagross.
Stall actually do like Gira's support, as such a rise on mega Gardevoir (who can hit gira behind a sub too), Mega Diancie and mega Altaria (perhaps even with Heal Bell) to counter that would be expected, in a way it would bring a similiar result from the mega metagross ban, only that MMgross usage would simply fall and not getting banned, while Fairy types would greatly rise.

 

[Blazikarados]

Hmm, interesting points how Giratina-O is immune to both Focus Blast and Earth Power, and has the raw bulk to survive HP Ice, which is a 3HKO without any HP or SpD investment.

But what happens if it gets hit by Knock Off? Does it revert to regular Giratina?

Giratina can't have Griseous Orb knocked off, making it a slightly better switch in to weak Knock offs. Ofc you don't want to take one from a Bisharp, but that's what people mean by "immune to Knock off".

 

[DaytimeArsonist]

Hmm, a suspect for Gira-O seems nice. but i imagine it'll be like that mon you better have a check for or it will just sit there and not die, like it checks about all the relevant threats (i.e. MegaGross, Zard Y/X, Keldeo, Lopunny, Gallade, etc.) and it can even be a bit hard to handle now that it looks like stall may have that mon that can hit hard and take all the wish passes, CroTina seems like it maybe an overlooked set as well, but that all depends on the meta, all i have to say Altaria is gonna be the best Mega if this thing drops xD

 

[BlazeLatias]

First off i wanted to appologize for my first post. Anyways here are my thoughts on this suspect test on giri-o.
Overall i think this could be actualy interesting having somthing that can deal with some of the rather powerful mons in ou such as lando i and zard y. Gira o actualy checks these mons which can prove to be pretty good on both the stall and balence archtypes as stall wont have to be forced to run cress just to take out lando and gira is not passive which is quite a plus. With being restricted to one item it limts what gira can do as he cant have risidual recovery forcing him to run rest which means he can be at least wittled. This actualy seems like it can prove to be interesting. I honestly hopee i can get the 2750 coil but if not thats pretty much my thoughts on gira o in ou. He proves to be benificail while not being borderline broken.

Once again sorry haunter was just about to add on

 

[-gizmo-]

I see the reasons behind trying to test giratina-o, but i wonder: Won't it just be another centralizing Pokemon in the metagame?
Not trying to compare apples and oranges here but I feel as if It would be somewhat like aegislash in the way that it quells a lot of near overbearing threats in the current metagame, but at the same time is part of the reason for such a stagnant metagame because there's just no reason to NOT use it. And from the OP I'm reading that a stagnant metagame is what we're trying to avoid. I'm all for seeing how Gira-O will function as part of defensive backbones, for utility purposes, or even as a bulky attacker but its presence(in theory) has me pondering if it's the best decision.

 

[havokchomp123]

I'm right now in the Unban camp, but i do wanna approach this with caution. It seems like the sets Giratina could run if it was in this tier would be either a bulky mixed wall breaker, rest talk, or a physical defog set, it just doesn't have the speed to be a revenge killer. As a defoger it is probably one of the best as it doesn't take damage from stealth rock damage, immunity to spikes, will-o-wisp, dragon tail. Will-o-wisp means that it can easily play mindgames with Bisharp, one of the things that defogers have to worry about.

However, I do think there are things that are helping to prevent Giratina from being OP. The obvious one is that it is limited by it's item choice, but also the fairy type's present in OU such as, Altaria, clefable, klefki, and azumarill (though it's crippeled by Will-o-wisp) can help to keep this thing in check. Especially Clefable, who has unaware to take care of the rest talk set. klefki, as well as Mandibuzz, can use foul play to dent Giratina a lot. Also 90 Base speed, while not terrible, leaves it very susceptible to being outpaced by faster opponents with super effective stab moves.

The only thing that makes me worried is that this thing could become over-centralizing, due it's power and bulk, which is why many are against unbanning in the first place. It also has tons of versatility, similar to Aegislash and mega Lucariio, where it can run many different sets to make it unpredictable in battle. Again, still in the UNBAN camp but i wanna approach this with some cautious optimism.

 

[JGSabino]

From my experience, Pyroar is very popular at the 1100-1200 range.

| 6 | Pyroar | 17.110% |

Calm Mind Blissey was a very good ADV set, but fell out of usage as people decided to use Chansey for it's superior bulk. If you look at my previous calc, Draco Meteor does nothing to Chansey, making it complete set up fodder.

And it's not that Giratina is switching in, but it can't do anything to stop Bisharp from setting up. It can't burn due to lum berry, and Giratina can't do much but sit there and die.

252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 72-84 (26.4 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 161-190 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 226-268 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

When I saw your first post I thought you were joking, but I guess you're serious. Pyroar is garbage, and can't do anything to Giratina-O at all. Regular Chansey sets (the usable ones) are setup bait for SubCM Giratina-O, and CM Chansey (lol) is phazed by regular Dragon Tail sets. As for Bisharp, Giratina-O learns Aura Sphere, so I don't understand how it "can't do anything to stop Bisharp from setting up". If you're trying to imply some mons check certain Giratina-O sets then you're right, as it happens with every Pokémon, but don't try to imply anything else.

 

[GlassVeins]

Another note: stallbreaker SD gliscore would be much less viable imo if this does happen. what could he do to gira, other than fling a toxic orb at him?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I really suck at teambuilding so having a thought-less, catch-all check to every other crazy powerful wall breaker would be a god send. Having a check to Lando-I, Y-zard, Keldeo, every electric, almost every water, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Volcarona, Mega Gallade and more, while spreading burns and providing hazard control while not being a pushover with 120/120 offenses is just great. It also helps that instead of holding any item, it can only use Draco Plate and Spooky Plate at the same time, which can't be Knocked Off. Only being able to use two items at once makes it a bit more predictable and easier to handle.

Giratina-O would be a positive addition to the meta-game, with it we would have an ideal metagame where every team using Giratina-O wouldn't suffer from team match-up issues.

 

[preserve]

I thought smogon doesn't unban or bring things from ubers to OU. Bringing Giritina to OU should also unban other pokes as well like mega luke and, mega khan. As for Giritina actually being in OU, im interesting in seeing Giritina being in OU and seeing how it does.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

o.O the arguments in this thread...just wow.

A lot of people in this thread have never really seen Giratina-O in play, this much I can tell. It is far from predictable, as have been show in this thread already. Mega Audino being claimed to be a top tier threat...what? I have NEVER seen one be used, the cost of using it over another mega is just too much. Besides, it doesn't beat Gira anyways. Knock Off doesn't get the boost on Gira as its Orb can not be removed. Finally, Levitate prevents Toxic Spikes from harming it, along with Spikes. It has a great move pool, and good strong stats. I am not saying it will for sure be broken, I want to play around with it in OU more before saying that, but the "Free Gira" crowd is REALLY REALLY underselling this monster. Also, the whole it counters these pokemon so it should be unbanned argument, is just bad. We don't allow stuff in OU that is broken if it checks something else that maybe broken without it. Once again, not saying it is broken yet, just that, that line of thought is bad.

 

[havokchomp123]

I thought smogon doesn't unban or bring things from ubers to OU. Bringing Giritina to OU should also unban other pokes as well like mega luke and, mega khan. As for Giritina actually being in OU, im interesting in seeing Giritina being in OU and seeing how it does.

Not exactly, those pokemon are still way too strong for the OU metagame and would be unhealthy for the tier. With Giratina though, it's a little bit different. Giratina could bring something new to the OU metagame, while the other pokes you mentioned wouldn't.

 

[ginganinja]

Not surprised by this. Back in BW Giratina-O was given serious consideration due to its ability to threaten the common sun/rain cores of the generation, and while it was never formally suspect tested in BW2, I'm really not surprised at all that with the large degree of power creep in this generation, that it has earned itself a suspect test. Really looking forward to having a generic "catch all" utility mon to assist me in handling some of the more common threats in the metagame, allows me to test some slightly more anti meta picks, to see how they develop in this suspect metagame.

EDIT

I thought smogon doesn't unban or bring things from ubers to OU. Bringing Giritina to OU should also unban other pokes as well like mega luke and, mega khan. As for Giritina actually being in OU, im interesting in seeing Giratina being in OU and seeing how it does.

Pointing out we have brought stuff down several times. Garchomp and Cube are the more obvious ones, although Deoxys-D slipped down in BW after a bunch of uber pokemon were informally retested.

 

[Jaguar360]

Wow, this is cool! Since none of us have played in Giratina-O meta yet, I can't have a stance on whether it's appropriate to stay or not, but it seems more manageable than I thought at first (though still not very) and a nice addition to the tier from my cursory glance at it.

Clefable is a hard stop that I found with that cursory glance. An old spread of 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD Bold evades the 2HKOs from both Iron Head and Shadow Ball, which is further helped by Leftovers. Calm Mind can be an issue for Magic Guard sets though and Stealth Rock for Unaware.

252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Clefable: 170-200 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Moonblast will fail to 2HKO when Giratina has HP or SpD investment though.
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 198-234 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 198-234 (44.8 - 53%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

Giratina's bulk will probably be one the factors to push it over the edge. RestTalk works decently for it since it has phazing and a good primary STAB in Ghost. CroTina-O (Calm Mind + RestTalk) is looking dangerous with 150/100/100 bulk and a good STAB move.

There's also unpredictability to worry about since Giratina-O's sets can range from All-Out Attacker, to Offensive Calm Mind, to Offensive Defog, to RestTalk, to Defensive Defog, to CroTina, to Tank. It seems difficult to defend these all at once, though if I found Clefable in that quick search, there are probably a few more answers hiding.

One final thing to note in my ramblings about Giratina-O is that Giratina-O is pretty much a Mega Pokemon that doesn't need to Mega Evolve. Its stats are just below those of Mega Metagross, Garchomp and Salamence and, like them, it is forced to carry a single item (which does albeit boost the power of its STAB moves by 20%). Don't know how or if that affects its manageability/brokenness, but it's an interesting comparison.

EDIT: Oh shoot, forgot Iron Tail. R.I.P. Clef

 

[havokchomp123]

o.O the arguments in this thread...just wow.

A lot of people in this thread have never really seen Giratina-O in play, this much I can tell. It is far from predictable, as have been show in this thread already. Mega Audino being claimed to be a top tier threat...what? I have NEVER seen one be used, the cost of using it over another mega is just too much. Besides, it doesn't beat Gira anyways. Knock Off doesn't get the boost on Gira as its Orb can not be removed. Finally, Levitate prevents Toxic Spikes from harming it, along with Spikes. It has a great move pool, and good strong stats. I am not saying it will for sure be broken, I want to play around with it in OU more before saying that, but the "Free Gira" crowd is REALLY REALLY underselling this monster. Also, the whole it counters these pokemon so it should be unbanned argument, is just bad. We don't allow stuff in OU that is broken if it checks something else that maybe broken without it. Once again, not saying it is broken yet, just that, that line of thought is bad.

I think the reason people haven't seen much of giratina in play is because it's an uber pokemon that has always been in Ubers. With other pokemon that have been banned to ubers or suspected, it's a lot easier to talk about a metagame with those pokemon since they've been around for much longer. Giratina hasn't though, which makes it more difficult to suspect this satan pokemon.

 

[Fireburn]

Sweep


Immune to both of Giratina-O's STAB's and it has reliable recovery. Mega-Audino is an example of another underused Pokemon that will be brought up back to viability in the Giratinia-O OU metagame. It has a supereffective STAB against Giratinia-O and a multitude of support moves that make sure it isn't passive as hell. So far, I haven't seen any compelling arguments to keep Giratina-O out of the tier. It counters huge threats in the metagame, makes some underused pokemon viable, and it has a easy-to-incoporate checks and counters.

Giratina-O also learns Iron Head/Tail. Also:

0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Giratina-O: 162-192 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

lol

While this is an certainly interesting test, I don't think Giratina-O is going to be the savior of OU as some of you are hoping. As my buddy Sweep pointed out, Giratina-O is itself a formidable offensive force with a huge offensive movepool that is just as good at breaking up defensive teams (it also gets boosting options in CM/HC in addition to its wide coverage + solid STABs) as it is helping them by checking half the metagame. I don't buy it'll make the metagame more defensive since it is itself another strong wallbreaker in a tier already full of them + it checks like half of OU without having to do anything special. I've seen some people bring up "well everyone thought Kyurem-B was broken in Gen 5 and it's not," but it is important to note that Kyurem-B's key flaws were crappy defensive typing and lack of solid physical stab options to make use of its full offensive potential. Giratina-O isn't burdened with these issues, it might have 5 weaknesses but the combination of resistances afforded by its typing is phenomenal, it has incredible offensive options on both ends, and it is highly resistant to hazards given Levitate + neutrality to Rock which makes it even harder to kill given its amazing defenses. And that's not even mentioning its defensive utility with Defog/Wisp/priority Sneak and its got great synergy with Wish users making up for its lack of reliable recovery.

It could very well "balance" the metagame by making like half of OU unviable, but it'd be a balance completely dictated by Giratina-O given its status as a "mindless catch-all" mon and I'm not sure that's any better than ORAS OU at present.

We'll see if the ladder says differently but I've got my doubts.

 

[Scorpiopt]

Giratina in OU will definitely help stall at the moment we have a very offensive metagame , filled with powerful physical treats cant wait to test it
On the note that some claiming other mons should be unbanned if this drops, please that didn't work well in the past (Genesect and Deoxys has examples), i for one welcome our ghost overlord in OU