np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

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jpw234

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Okay, let's also talk about the "matchup" thing that -Clone- and doughboy talked about. I get it - there's a lot of really powerful stuff out there, and dealing with all of it can be difficult. We might differ on how much of a problem we think that is, but sure, teambuilding is strained a bit right now.

The issue is that bringing Aegislash into the tier isn't a way to fix that at a tournament level. Aegislash is a good way of making sure good players beat bad players almost all the time. If you're laddering with an Aegislash you are much more immune to the curse of hitting something completely off the wall that you didn't prepare for, because Aegi is such a ridiculous blanket check. Cool. But at the tournament level, Aegi doesn't solve the problem, it just recenters the problem from "how do I deal with all the different threats" to "how do I deal with all the combinations of lure Aegi sets + sweepers, and also sweepers that lose to my Aegi + Aegi lures". It's difficult to understand how the difficulty of "oops, I just lose to Hawlucha, I guess" is any different from "oops, I just lose to Hawlucha + this Aegi lure, I guess", especially because players using something like Hawlucha know in an Aegi meta that the counter they will almost always face is Aegi and can gameplan specifically for it with a high degree of confidence.

I don't know, it just feels like the whole "drop Aegi to make the metagame more handleable" thing is missing the boat. In some ways, it's easier to lose to "matchup" in a centralized metagame because people can more easily play against the top threats.
 
After testing numerous threats for Ubers, we are inverting the course this round. Aegislash has been the uncontested ruler of the early stages of Gen 6. With its outstanding 150/150 offensive statistics, coupled with equally incredible 150/150 defenses when in Shield form, excellent defensive and offensive typing and access to King's shield, Aegislash has been the most controversial Pokémon in the X/Y era. Its ban happened because a handful of voters decided to change their vote right before the end of the voting phase and the community at large has never been entirely convinced that the Royal Sword Pokémon was overpowered in the OU tier.
Im not buyin it

:suspicious:
 

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Anyone making a big pro/anti-ban argument at this point is acting prematurely, in my opinion.

Aegi was the type of poke that was not necessarily too overpowering (I mean SBall can hit hard, but it's not the strongest thing out there), but it was broken by virtue of the toxic effect it had on the tier, in my opinion, back in XY. If you haven't tested it out extensively in ORAS, then how do you know what effect it has on the tier?_? Basing arguments off of theory never goes well.

So I don't know why some people are like "omg pls ban!!!!!!1!1!!!!" or "pls let it back 2 save the meta!!!" because there's no real way to know until everyone can get a grasp on the Aegi ORAS metagame.

I know I'm not the most polished OU player anymore, but as a guy who played with it in XY for a long time (was pro-ban on it then) and recently took up ORAS OU a bit more seriously, I can safely say that a couple battles and loose assumptions are not a proper way to gauge the brokenness of Aegislash.

Regardless, I'm personally looking forward to going out there and actually playing with this thing, seeing how it does, and observing what changed in regards to the meta / trends.
 
"Omg how beautiful Aegislash is not OP is just skill reliant"
>Attack
>Tap King's Shield
>Repeat
Lol

Also Aegi is not OP is overcentralizing which is a lot different
Do you expect it to have low usage given that he checks/counters basically all the popular mons rn bar Landos and Keldeo? This shit is literally capable of beating any playstyle due to its movepool, stats and typing, has no true counters and forces you to limit teambuilding while not making the tier benefit for its presence at all.
Idk why people keep saying it would be wealthy, I hope you guys change your mind while laddering.
 
I can see the purpose of this test completely. Aegis was banned only by a few votes that switched last minute so retesting it in a new meta is only right. Yes it would fix teambuilding problem, but then everyone would just be running Aegis and Aegis counter. What part of that sounds enjoyable. I believe the only new thing we got since ORAS to make aegis weaker is possible the greninja ban and megaswampert, but Aegis could even tank greninja hits and megaswampert is only used on same rain teams. In return a whole plethora of very viable mons become borderline unusable. Its still early and I haven't played the test meta yet, but unless something crazy happens I don't see me wanting him back in the meta
 

Holiday

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It should be noted that Aegislash centralizing the metagame by acting as a blanket check to a large number of threats is no different than pokemon such as Landorus-T and Clefable who do the exact same thing. So this argument should be discared whenever it's brought up.
The thing is: Lando T is demolished by any Ice Attack, any special Water attack, and basically anything that is faster than it with a S/E move. Clefable can pick to an extent what it wants to beat, with innovation like LO Focus Blast for Sharp and Tran, but any strong attack can put it down. Also, let's see what Lando-T runs, set wise. Most common is probably defensive set, then scarf. you see some dual dance or explosion stuff, but from the minute you read "The opposing Landorus-Therian restored its health using its Leftovers" or realize it outsped your Max Speed MGardevoir you know the set and how to go about it for your team ("I should sac this and bring in my scarfer to revenge" or "He can't really hurt my TFlame since he went with KOff over SE, so I can bring that in to scare it out with WoW" you get the point)

Clefable is going to have different counters based on ability, which is simple to find out by throwing down SR. If it takes damage, status it, don't bring in Set Up Sweepers etc. If it doesn't, use powerful attacks and mons that can set up on it. Same course of action as Landorus: find out the difference (in this case, ability. In Lando's, item usually tells you) and adjust properly.

Aegislash can check a TON of Pokemon with each of it's many different sets. You see Leftovers, but that doesn't tell you if it's SubToxic, SubKS+STABs, three moves + KS etc. You have to guess around and scope out other moves to see what it's packing (remember early Gren arguments: you never knew what the 3rd and 4th move were until they showed up.)

Also, Landorus-T and Clefable don't really make many Pokemon unviable, at least not to the extent Aegislash does. Aegislash gets to pick his counters much more effectively. The Royal Blade also supplies much more team support for mons like MGyara and Lando-I, forming crazy cores with both of them.

Too splashable. Too powerful. Not worth it.
 
The community needs to basically decide what they really want. Previously I've thought the priority was to have a diverse metagame with many viable Pokemon, but now it's become a trend for people to complain about matchup. Aegislash would fix that problem by centralising things and making loads of the meta's diverse threats significantly less viable... the very thing we banned it for in the first place, right? It has not got any worse. It has a great matchup against most of the ORAS Megas. What I don't understand is why there has been this reversal of consensus on the idea of centralisation recently, which I honestly think has a component of bandwagoning. If a more centralised metagame is now considered a good thing, it seems even weirder that the Giratina-O thing was just a joke.
I agree with this. We really need to decide what the community wants; diversity or centralization. I personally haven't found the current meta to be too frustrating and I love that so many things are viable. Angi would take a giant dump on 1/3 of that diversity especially considering it crushes things that aren't a big deal in the first place (are you seriously having problems dealing with Celebi, Slowbro, Jirachi, Clefable, Starmie, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Breloom, Dragalge, Togekiss, Terrakion, Hawlucha, Sceptile, Serperior, Reuniclus, and Sylveon? Really?)

Regardless of the outcome here a large portion of the playerbase is going to be unhappy
 

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The King's Shield 50-50 was always a bullshit argument because it wasn't hard to circumvent (non-contact moves, Special Attackers, Bisharp). I always felt the overcentralization argument was kinda weak because there were (and still are) like 20 checks to this thing running around that are highly ranked and considered good overall. Sure we lose some stuff like Hawlucha that literally cannot touch it, but people need to realize they can't have their cake and eat it too. We need to decide with this test what we want and stick with it; do we want diversity with what Pokemon are viable (which will inevitably lead to matchup issues down the line) or do we want a smaller pool that makes teambuilding easier? I personally want the former since I want this metagame to reward skill more than shitty matchups, and that's only possible with a bit of healthy centralization of threats.

Also, Giratina-O was an extreme version of this since it checked more and was way more versatile, letting it screw over its checks easier (Aegislash has to run stupid shit like Head Smash to do that). Don't compare them because Giratina-O is clearly better.
 
Glad this is being retested.

But I would rather ban pokes like Sableye and Gothitelle that really limit teambuilding (and baton pass + magic bounce while we're at it) rather than introduce this though. Stall is ridiculous atm, since Gothitelle can easily remove the best stallbreakers like Heracross and Manaphy.
 
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Perhaps I should wait until I actually try this thing out, but one of my greatest concerns is Aegislash's unrivaled characteristics as a slap-on-every-team glue mon. Offensively it's absolutely monstrous with STAB shadow ball alone. Gengar is already a significant threat because of this, despite being frail and difficult to switch in. Slapping it on offensive teams (partnered with lando probably) seems to have almost 0 opportunity cost because it offers a crazy amount of defensive support in one pokemon without compromising the team's ability to keep the pressure on. One thing I like about the current meta is that there really aren't any pokemon that are no-brainers to throw on every type of team. Even lando-t, glue mon of the year, comes at the cost of not being able to use lando-i.

I feel like pursuit bisharp is the one true answer to both offensive and defensive aegislash-based cores, and it isn't even 100% effective.

That's all I got for now. I don't want to say too much, considering I haven't used aegi in a year.



oh yeah also its incredibly versatile
 
First of all let me just say im all for aegislash returning to ou and i have some reasons why.

1. Team building right now is next to fucking ridiculous. Battles these days do not depict skill because it doesnt matter how much you try to cover weaknesses, a huge hole is open for a mon to destroy your team. Aegislash fixes that problem. It has patches holes really nicely but has has strong weak points as well. Although the mon of the hour right now is lanodo-i, hard hitters such as gengar and zard y are unbelievably powerful mons that hurts teams and aegislash will only find itself hurt by that. Mega gross also delivers a solid 2hko on aegislash with eq therefore making it not a switch in. With some prior damage +1 eq from altaria knocks it out. Even diancie's earth power 2hko's. Bulky chomp which almost everyone is using beats aegi. bisharp, despite not being a switch in, beats aegi. sp.def gliscor laughs at aegi. keldeo isnt a switch in but 1v1 it beats aegi. heatran beats aegi. spdef talonflame beats aegi. drill and the lando's beat aegi. torn beats aegi. volcarona which has being seeing decent usage lately beats aegi. and several other things beat it.
Okay, this is already off to a great start. Battles these days do not depict skill? That's insanely ironic, since Aegislash is the definition of mindless playing, forcing opponents into endless coin tosses while you can troll the shit out of them. Teambuilding would be FAR worse in an Aegislash meta, since you need at least two, if not three Pokémon to counteract it. It's supremely versatile with what it can run and can afford to vary on its offensive sets: think your Mandibuzz is a safe switch-in? It gets Toxic'd or Head Smashed. Gonna bring in Bisharp? Sacred fucking Sword. Yes, some Pokémon can beat Aegislash, but even those have a lot of trouble beating the motherfucker. Just by showing some Pokémon can counteract Aegislash doesn't mean it's going to be okay when it blanket checks, even blanket counters a good portion of the metagame. Its mere presence renders several otherwise good Pokémon unviable. Pokémon are forced to adapt their movesets to Aegislash, making them much more predictable and exploitable.

2. Almost all the mons people think this thing is going to make worthless, are either made worthless by another mon already or shouldnt be mentioned due to no usage. Mega medicham for starters shouldnt be mentioned in this because no one uses that thing anymore. the same thing aegi does to altaria, gross already did and did it worse. Same goes for just about every fairy there is.
Usage =/= viability, learn the difference before making such a statement. Besides, that's where a little thing called teambuilding comes in, which Aegislash is going to put massive seventy-five gigaton titanium shackles around.

3. people say it will make some mons lose viablity but several mons do that. the thing is it maes other mons viable too. bisharp gets more attention, diggersby (which is actually a good mon unlike the bs mons ppl normally mention like p2) will get attention it deserves and it bring creativity out of more people to make the somewhat boring ou meta we have come back to life
Ohohoho, many Pokémon are going to be nerfed drastically when Aegislash returns. You really are underestimating how extremely dominant Aegislash was in the early XY meta and the shift after its ban was absolutely massive, since a huge amount of Pokémon became actually viable and usable. Some of those Pokémon would otherwise just rot in BL without the chance to shine, all because of the motherfucking sword.

Wait a second--
it bring creativity out of more people to make the somewhat boring ou meta we have come back to life


4. it serves as a check to annoying mons such as serperior which destroys teams (making people have to hope it doesnt have hp fire or hp ground.
Yes, but other Pokémon can already check Serperior to great effect. Anything faster than it, and there's quite a range of Pokémon sitting at 115 Speed or more, such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Manectric with Overheat, Mega Houndoom, Tornadus-T, Scarfers... Really, Pokémon like these can be handled.
 
Much as I do love the sword, I don't think he has a place in an OU I'd like to play.

First, let me draw a comparison to the April Fools' Suspect. The reason people threw Giratina-O onto teams was because inherent attributes like its typing and uninvested bulk allowed it to basically blanket check 70% of the Meta, and depending on which of its highly flexible and different sets you run, it could check another 15-20%. Aegislash might not work with numbers quite that ridiculous, but he's in a similar boat. Aegislash almost invalidates half of the tier on his own merits (Fairies, Psychics, Fighting types and almost anything physical all hate him). Now consider what happens for offensive threats if they have a teammate that, without being specific or needing significant help of its own, can eliminate all their checks and counters for them?

Yes, Aegislash checks things like Mega Metagross and Gardevoir, but he also beats a good deal of their answers (Slowbro and Skarmory, for example). Metagross doesn't run Grass Knot as much because there's more he needs to handle than Hippowdon, but if Aegislash deals with them all for him, you'll just see Grass Knot become standard and partnering him with the Sword. So teams will heavily be based around a core of Metagross-Aegislash-(Answer to Aegislash), for one example. And this is just for examples that have a chance to contribute even with Aegislash there. Other mons like Serperior, Dragalge, Celebi and Starmie are just SoL.

And these are just threats that Aegislash checks but can partner with. I haven't even touched on the tier's current best: Landorus-I. He still partners well with Aegislash by dealing with his few checks/counters pretty well, but unlike the above mons, Landorus mangles Aegislash as well, reducing the effective core to Landorus-Aegislash. Landorus is already a Pokemon I debate needing a Suspect of his own, so I'm not a fan of reintroducing something that both directly and indirectly makes him better. I don't find the metagame so match-up dependent that I flat out auto-lose a bad match-up, whether or not it'll be an uphill fight. With Aegislash, there is no reason not to throw him on your team because there is no chance of you succeeding as consistently without him as you would with him.

Metagross the most recent suspect candidate, was elected to keep in OU, which tells me that there doesn't seem to be a belief that the Metagame is unhealthy enough to need a radical shift: healthy or not, no one's going to argue Aegislash would have a dramatic impact on OU. Every Metagame is inevitably going to have some degree of centralization, but the ORAS metagame has it in a manageable degree. Heck the arguments about match up mean that the centralization is probably less constraining than usual.

How much has changed that would truly make Aegislash less unhealthy for OU? Nothing that was introduced for ORAS' additions actually made him worse (he shits on just about every viable new Mega, forcing even Lopunny to play 50/50 w/ King's Shield), so there's no guarantee the game would be particularly different from his last presence. I am genuinely concerned that bringing Aegislash back could essentially put us back to the state the Metagame was in with him in early-mid XY, throwing out any balancing work the other suspects have been attempting to achieve. The only real difference would be the absence of Greninja (who some people considered an Aegis check, only another point in the sword's favor). As all the mechanics and pieces stand right now, Aegislash essentially locks the metagame down in its place, because unless a slew of additions hurt him, he's not hard pressed to adapt and keep the game wrapped around his hilt. The banner in the viability thread still reads "XY OU", and if we bring Aegislash back, it might as well stay that way, because we'd be right back to that Metagame with him around.

Keep the Sword in Ubers.

This argument is flawed as it can be applied to A LOT of mons. I will use your words as an example.


Mega Lopunny

Do you like umbreon? Fast offensive mons? Hydreigon? *Mega Lopunny* makes it unviable

Mega Alataria
Do you like umbreon? Do you like most non scarf mons named ferrothron? *Mega Altaria*
First off, Umbreon is unviable for a lot more reasons than Lopunny and Altaria.

Second of all, every Pokemon checks things yes, but Aegislash basically slaps down half of the Metagame just by existing. His presence in the tier, much less on teams, knocks the wind out of almost every Psychic type, and is a hit to Fairies and Fighting types. See Celebi and Jirachi, sitting in the A Ranks right now? Those two were either low C's or UNRANKED when Aegislash was around. Hell, I don't even remember where the Latis, consistent A/A+ threats (Latios was S for a time) were during the Aegi Meta. Lopunny is a check to Hydreigon, but he's still managing a decent B-Rank despite her. That's a significant gap in hinderance.

Certain Mons are hurt by things like Altaria and Lopunny, but their issues with those can be mitigated through team support because those threats don't have what it takes to break the Metagame on their knees consistently.

It should be noted that Aegislash centralizing the metagame by acting as a blanket check to a large number of threats is no different than pokemon such as Landorus-T and Clefable who do the exact same thing. So this argument should be discared whenever it's brought up.
This comparison is flawed because these two do not blanket check as much as well as Aegislash does. Landorus-T beats different things depending on his set, and still has to be played well since he's either a Scarfed pivot with only okay offensive presence, a defensive pivot without recovery, or a sweeper with some crippling weaknesses and a less than stellar speed to work around in setting up.

Clefable needs to set up in order to pose a threat, and while it can check mons by absorbing their hits, Clefable is also extremely easy to exploit with options like Heatran.

Aegislash blanket checks a huge number of threats, but he also can blanket counter a whole lot. I've already affirmed what types he shits on, and eating attacks off those Base 150 offenses or breaking 60/150/150 SubToxic is equally problematic. Unlike Clefable or Landorus-T, Aegislash does not need support to do his jobs, but supports teammates IN ADDITION to checking such threats. What the games eventually come down to is making sure you support the team against Aegislash checks, so that while Aegislash wears out your win condition's obstacles, you wear out the mons your opponent is forced to use to deal with him, as well as their own sword.

And this is all just on the basis of natural bulk and Typing. Aegislash is borderline uncounterable because each of his sets have different (and often shaky) answers: Chesnaught beats the old Crumbler set, loses to Flash Cannon; Hippowdon beats offensive sets, loses to SubToxic; Bisharp beats SubToxic, loses to 3-Attacks w/ Sacred Sword; Amoongus beats SubToxic and some Special sets, he's set up fodder for SD.

Aegislash isn't like Greninja where he's picking counters, Aegislash is picking his CHECKS, things that can stop him temporarily. I know being uncounterable isn't the only argument for being banned, but Aegislash can't be stopped from doing his job consistently, and he does very important jobs so well that stopping them is necessary to have a chance against his team.
 
It should be noted that Aegislash centralizing the metagame by acting as a blanket check to a large number of threats is no different than pokemon such as Landorus-T and Clefable who do the exact same thing. So this argument should be discared whenever it's brought up.
Compared to lando-I and clefable, aegislash blanket checks a lot more and adds far more support in tandem with other already really powerful mons like lando-I in being able to easily shut down the likes of mons like m-gardevoir, hazard removers like starmie, scizor,and the latis, new arising threats like m-diancie, m-metagross, and easily limits teambuilding significantly in that it can completely shut down threats like hawlucha that would otherwise need a lot more support to accomplish what they set out to do. Really only two poke on really benefit from aegislash being in the tier, lando-I and bisharp, and they are already really good as it is. Though i am looking forward to the suspect test, i can't honestly see aegislash being healthy for the meta game atm. In fact, it looks to benefit more from the oras meta game in that on top of what it already did it can shut down some of the new arising threats and come out on top against some things like m-lopunny courtesy of King shield. I believe the problem trying to be solved is how matchup dependant the meta game has become, and I don't think aegislash will solve this issue. It will worsen it.
 

Amaluna

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I feel like this would change the meta a lot. Aegislash' typing is so good and its signature move causes a lot of 50/50s. I feel like Aegislash is like an offensive wall, that stops quite a few mons in the tier. I wish everyone the best of lucking getting reqs, and who knows, we'll see Aegislash in OU again or not.
 
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are aegislash ruining the metagame


like seriously, i really think it's too early to judge whether this will be broken or not. it definitely fixes the problem of overcentralization but isn't that was what it was banned for in the first place :\ i think tiering philosophy will change with this suspect and idk if I agree with it.
 
As others have said, Aegislash warps the metagame around it too heavily. Anything that's countered by it becomes dead weight. Furthermore, Landorus-I will dominate the meta even more.

Several Pokemon became more viable with Aegislash gone, and the only one that really dropped in usage was Mandibuzz.

Leave it in Ubers.
 

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First of all let me just say im all for aegislash returning to ou and i have some reasons why.

1. Team building right now is next to fucking ridiculous. Battles these days do not depict skill because it doesnt matter how much you try to cover weaknesses, a huge hole is open for a mon to destroy your team. Aegislash fixes that problem. It has patches holes really nicely but has has strong weak points as well. Although the mon of the hour right now is lanodo-i, hard hitters such as gengar and zard y are unbelievably powerful mons that hurts teams and aegislash will only find itself hurt by that. Mega gross also delivers a solid 2hko on aegislash with eq therefore making it not a switch in. With some prior damage +1 eq from altaria knocks it out. Even diancie's earth power 2hko's. Bulky chomp which almost everyone is using beats aegi. bisharp, despite not being a switch in, beats aegi. sp.def gliscor laughs at aegi. keldeo isnt a switch in but 1v1 it beats aegi. heatran beats aegi. spdef talonflame beats aegi. drill and the lando's beat aegi. torn beats aegi. volcarona which has being seeing decent usage lately beats aegi. and several other things beat it.

2. Almost all the mons people think this thing is going to make worthless, are either made worthless by another mon already or shouldnt be mentioned due to no usage. Mega medicham for starters shouldnt be mentioned in this because no one uses that thing anymore. the same thing aegi does to altaria, gross already did and did it worse. Same goes for just about every fairy there is.

3. people say it will make some mons lose viablity but several mons do that. the thing is it maes other mons viable too. bisharp gets more attention, diggersby (which is actually a good mon unlike the bs mons ppl normally mention like p2) will get attention it deserves and it bring creativity out of more people to make the somewhat boring ou meta we have come back to life

4. it serves as a check to annoying mons such as serperior which destroys teams (making people have to hope it doesnt have hp fire or hp ground.
There's....a lot wrong with this post that I really need to address now ._.

1. Teambuilding being ridiculous is over exaggerated. The game still centralizes over top tier threats as does all the metas before it at least in the current gen. These holes are usually prone to not so much niche mons but ones that do not have very high usage to begin with and depending on the meta you're playing it's perfectly possible to make a team that mitigates whatever matchup weakness that the community loves to establish for themselves as if it actually applies. One can track meta trends and know what to look out for and what to more or less disregard. Aegi meta, Mawile meta, ORAS meta, this applies to any meta. Also Air Balloon Aegislash was a perfectly viable set an all these ground answers you stated need to get past this fact in the first place and as such are poor ways to beat Aegislash. You're, as in most individuals, are looking way too into 1v1 scenarios without looking at it from a much larger perspective of an actual metagame and what its influence can establish.

2. Uh no Aegi meta made a bunch of very viable things in our current meta right now more or less worthless. The majority of relevant psychics in the tier were enormous liabilities to run on a team without packing an extreme answer to it such as Bisharp, Landorus, Diggersby, etc. and even then these were never switch ins to begin with based on the amount of options that Aegislash were able to run. Most of these fairy types still have minor ways to pressure M-Metagross and overtime M-Metagross' and its impact on the Fairy types in the tier were very miniscule in the long run as you still see plenty of M-Altaria, Clefables, M-Diancie, and so forth. Aegislashes typing alone dictated to a very high degree the meta trends that took place and I would argue even more so than any of the current top tier threats in our meta right now.

3. Aegislash meta was far from creativity, it was static. You saw things like Bisharp and Landorus (you'll see this even more than now in Aegi meta) were all over the place because the Aegi meta put an emphasis on Pokemon who were able to outright KO Aegislash through a variance such as Char-X, Landorus, Bisharp, Diggersby or something like Mandibuzz who can provide hazard removal utility while not being demolished by Aegislash, something that Skarmory and say Latios weren't able to provide to a high degree during that meta. Aegi meta put an emphasis on Aegislash, shaky checks and answers to Aegislash, and mons who benefitted from Aegislash and its utility it provided, which is the most important aspect people tend to forget or ignore when looking at Aegislash and its effect on the metagame. Teams were even more linear in that meta than they were now and the year prior to Aegislashes suspect test this creative you speak of to handle the Aegi meta became a moot point when the Aegislash builds were able to adapt much more easily if not much better than any conventional builds. Subtoxic Aegislash, Speedy Aegislash, Air Balloon Aegislash, these were all due to attempts at adaptation towards the Aegi meta and because of this it created over time more problems than it did good.

4. Its overcentralizing of blanket checking with almost no consequences is the problem in the first place. Serperior is annoying but by no means is it some impossible threat to deal with where Aegislash dropping down is good justification to fix a meta. When you have stuff that is subjectively broken in our current meta and bring something that basically makes many of these simply better, that's putting a band aid on a wound when it's clearly obvious it needs actual treatment.

Also this is how the XY Aegi meta was, that's simply its effect on how it dictated usage by itself and trends. It made a ton of things extremely stronger than they should be, and the new additions to ORAS may or may not be mitigated by Aegislash, but it also gives them the benefit to use Aegislash to help fix their own problems.

Edit: And to those talking about "knee jerk" arguments or hypotheticals it doesn't take hypotheticals to explain how the Aegi meta was and in what ways it correlates to our current meta. It's a suspect thread where it's perfectly fine to address these points so please spare me the notion that this is pure theorymon when none of what I said was actual theory during its time in OU.
 


#KILLTEAMBUILDING2015

Smogsword
is probably going to be AIDs in the OU metagame once again. Besides checking half the meta while looking extremely stylish and sexy whilst doing so, killing off the Fairy types and Psychic types of the tier is stupid. Teambuilding may be a problem, but as AM said, its over exaggerated. Don't forget the 50/50s caused by Smogsword. The new changes to ORAS shifted the metagame into a position that Aegislash rather likes to be quite honest; Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Dragalge, and Mega Slowbro are all afraid of Spooksword. Let's not forget the other things that hated Aegislash, such as Jirachi, Celebi, Starmie, and the Lati Twins. Every physical attacker is in a 50/50 position VS. Aegislash and after taking out all of the psychic/fairy types, we're left with a stale metagame with a sword down our throats. In short, as much as I would like to see this back in OU, keep
Ubers.

 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
3 pages of rants and none of yall have probably played more than five-ten matches on the ladder yet.

i know i for one am actually going to play on the damn ladder and see how aegislash affects the meta instead of utilizing strictly on paper arguments. what works in paper and how it plays out in practice are two vastly different things - and while i agree that smogsword is definitely a daunting beast, it has litereally been less than half a day and people are already proclaiming ultimatiums and knee jerk arguments.

perhaps we should, y'know, actually play the ladder and see how things pan out instead of theorymoning.
 
I never was afraid of Aegislash. Of course, the 50/50 and the overcentralisation parts are quite lame, but seriously, this thing has like 4 sets: Swords Dance/Physical Attacker, Mixed, Autotomize/Double Dance, and Toxic staller (sometimes special sweeper, but I don't really like it). But yea, most people play the swords dance/mixed. It's sets are quite predictable.

The only problem now is that he just gained a threatening weapon with ORAS: Magnet Rise.

Yeah, I'll sure try this guy in Overused, even if it lasts a few days only.

Nyttyn, you're absolutely right, we shall try this thing before writing a novel about this guy.
 
In XY metagame Aegislash was one of the most centralising things, it simply made unviable or so much less viable things like Starmie, Jirachi, Celebi, Mega-Garde, and many others psychic / fairy types specially. That's because the overused metagame was really weak to Ghost spam and if a pokemon is total countered by Aegi, it could just spam shadow ball with sacred sword coverage for Bisharp and Tyranitar. There were a few things can enter in Aegislash without risk like Heatran, Mandibuzz for example, but usually easy to waste with some damage every entry and hazards.
In ORAS, Aegislash could be the response to much of those threats that make the actual metagame too much matchup-based, like Mega Metagross, Altaria, Diancie, Gallade, Slowbro, Gardevoir... It can seem the solution, but the problem it the centralization that Aegi causes. In my opinion, for my experience during the change Aegi -> post Aegi metagames I could realize how centralizing was Aegislash, and watching the current state of the metagame, Aegi will produce a huge centralization, limiting severely the teambuilding.
Also, noteworthy that Aegislash has one of the most controversial moves, King's Shield. With that move Aegislash can change to shield form, protect from damage moves and lowers the foe attack by 2 if it receives a contact move. That causes a lot of 50/50 against other pokemon and makes Aegislash probably the best bulky offense Pokemon, being able to attack with 150 base and defend with others 150 base, as if it had 720 base Stats.
For now, in my opinion, Aegislash should remain in Ubers.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
js Aegislash will bring a more skill-based metagame because centralization -> less games decided by matchup (but also less diversity) In the giratina suspect topic there was already a great post about teambuilding skills + diversity vs. skills in games + centralization and I will make a bigger post about that because I am on my phone now but it is important to realise whether we want a diverse or a centralized metagame (and if the centralization of aegislash is positive or negative)
 
Its kina funny how things change over time.

Back when Aegi was tested everybody and their mother was complaining because its so centralizing and limits teambuilding. Then it got banned for good and now, about half a year later we have a meta thats as diverse as it can get and now everybody is complaining because its gotten difficult to cover als these threats that run rampant in the tier and now your retesting Aegi because he is a blanket check to many of these monsters and makes teambuilding easier.

Also back when Aegi was banned i was seriously pissed because i loved that guy and thought he was banned for the wrong reasons (lol @ that 50-50 bullshit). But i've got to say, after seeing how the meta turned out without him, how all these psychic/fighting types that were basicly unusable with Aegi around became viable, and how diverse the meta is right now i honestly don't want him back. The things he does like checking Garde, Diancie and even Metagross can be done by other mons like Jirachi for example to a similar extent. I dont think that diversity is a bad thing, i kinda like it tbh, yes teambuilding is a bit more complicated without nobrainerblanket checks like Aegi around but at least for now it can be done without Aegi.

In that sense, while he was banned for the wrong reasons, it was the right decision after all and he should stay in übers, OU is just more fun without him.
 
Also back when Aegi was banned i was seriously pissed because i loved that guy and thought he was banned for the wrong reasons (lol @ that 50-50 bullshit). But i've got to say, after seeing how the meta turned out without him, how all these psychic/fighting types that were basicly unusable with Aegi around became viable, and how diverse the meta is right now i honestly don't want him back. The things he does like checking Garde, Diancie and even Metagross can be done by other mons like Jirachi for example to a similar extent. I dont think that diversity is a bad thing, i kinda like it tbh, yes teambuilding is a bit more complicated without nobrainerblanket checks like Aegi around but at least for now it can be done without Aegi.

In that sense, while he was banned for the wrong reasons, it was the right decision after all and he should stay in übers, OU is just more fun without him.
Yeah, I have like exactly the same opinion as you. That sir is gonna change a lot OverUsed. Maybe too much, but I actually hate this new meta full of Megagrosses and CroBros. I want to see it change, and maybe Aegislash is what we need. I'll give him a chance and see what happens.
 
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