np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

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Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder.
You serious bro?

Greninja takes full advantage of it's "4mss" because Ninja picks it's targets based what it's team hates the most. So to clarify here: Greninja picks it's checks and counters, not the opponents. Meaning they are forced to be overly prepared for Greninja or just get lucky it doesn't happen to have hp fire, extrasensory or something to screw your best check. With that in mind you are only counting Greninja will only run it's standard set while that is purely optimal because it's all attacks are STAB it loses nothing to change it's coverage. You cannot say you got Greninja covered just by slapping Tentacruel on your team just because you don't expect it to run extrasensory when it is a very viable option and when it does it screws your entire team over. Because you can't use type advantage against Ninja virtually only handful can call themselves counters to Greninja and all of them are too passive to be on anything but stall teams.


This goes for all anti-banners: I implore you to read the Victory Road version because they have summed up the problems Greninja brings to the metagame better than I could ever hope and I am just seeing the same anti-ban arguments being beaten down over and over again and I want to see if someone can say Greninja is not a problem and have a explanation how Greninja can be reasonably handled without just using the same mons on all teams.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...round-1-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles.3525052/
 
Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder.
It has been established that Greninja doesn't have 4MSS. Most of the 'mons you listed are not counters but checks. I doubt Conk will enjoy an attack + Gunk Shot or Tentacruel an Extrasensory. Before you argue that Low Kick and Extrasensory are suboptimal for Greninja you must consider that Greninja is built around a team which means that it'll habe the tools to deal with those 'mons if the team needs it or it'll have answers to that in its team.

Now, I don't think that Greninja is broken nor uncounterable as was kindly demonstrated by the flurry of Porygon-2 a couple of pages back but I do believe that it is unhealthy for the metagame. The argument that it inhibits the Balance playstyle has already been brought out and, in my opinion, should be enough to consider him unhealthy for the metagame. Having to run pure stall or hyper offense isn't my idea of a healthy or fun metagame and creating a team that ismurdered while scouting for Ninja's 2 "coverage" moves (these being not Ice Beam or Gunk Shot isn't healthy either.

That aside, the sudpect ladder has been refreshing ever since Greninja left. I don't see Landorus-T in every team and, even better, they don't all carry scarfs holy crap. I believe Ninja leaving is for the best.
 
Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder. If removing it does not change the metagame at all, then is a ban warranted?
Empoleon is beaten by 40 attack investment and I don't need to explain why greninja doesn't have 4MSS because half this forum says why it don't and 5 of those mons are common Ou mons so they going to be use alot anyway and they can't counter except P2 and Chansey (sometimes on the latter) greninja and Gunk shot can 2hit Ko keldeo so it doesn't need extrasensory
 
Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder. If removing it does not change the metagame at all, then is a ban warranted?
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.9 - 56.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 213-252 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 222-263 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even though Chansey is 3HKOd, those calcs are still pretty impressive. Greninja doesn't even have 4MSS since it essentially chooses what checks it. Freedom of move choice and 4MMS are two very different things, and Greninja absolutely has the former, since it can run basically whatever it wants and still do its job effectively. Since Greninja has the ability to do this, balance is extremely hard-pressed in its teamslots to have even a snowball's chance in hell to check it. Since Protean exists, none of its coverage moves are really sub par (except maybe HP Electric) because all of its moves get STAB, so that point is irrelevant. The closest things that are counters to Greninja are almost, if not, complete momentum killers (Chansey, Alomomola, Porygon 2, etc.), even for balance. I've only played the suspect ladder a little bit and it feels more open to experiment with a major Speed benchmark gone for offense and balance not being completely invalidated by a frog. Gren really doesn't have any of the cons you mentioned, in addition to having all of these refutes thoroughly explained by previous posters (especially 4MMS) and not bringing anything new to the table (but who am I to talk, I'm doing the exact same thing lol).
 

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Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder. If removing it does not change the metagame at all, then is a ban warranted?
He two shots keldeo:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tentacruel can actually take a few hits:
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 99-118 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

He almost always 2-shots chansey after stealth rocks:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

He can one shot empoleon after rocks:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Basically the only one of your mentioned Pokemon can actually take some hits from a standard Greninja running extra attack investment. That extra investment doesn't even limit Greninja that much if at all.
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 551-655 (136.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 491-580 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 369-437 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 268-320 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 213-252 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 556-658 (200.7 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 307-361 (85 - 100%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 296-351 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 283-335 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 484-577 (137.5 - 163.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 377-447 (113.8 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 390-460 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKOv
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 304-359 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 179-212 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 445-525 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 624-738 (163.3 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 187-221 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-291 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 491-580 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 243-289 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 129-152 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 269-317 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 445-525 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 315-374 (105.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 238-281 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 289-343 (75.2 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 276-328 (77.9 - 92.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(guarented OHKO because of flying type before mega)
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 187-222 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 212-251 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 382-452 (127.7 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 74-87 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 177-211 (66.7 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 96 HP / 120 Def Smeargle: 471-556 (171.2 - 202.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 398-471 (127.9 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 424-502 (113.6 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-229 (58.7 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 165-196 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 237-281 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Volcarona: 220-259 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 562-660 (200 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 220 HP / 16 Def Celebi: 400-476 (101 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 299-354 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 598-707 (212.8 - 251.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 276-328 (63.8 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 491-580 (151.5 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 330-393 (86.8 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 257-304 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Edit: Stupid hide tag formatting is stupid.

You know there's all this talk about Greninja missing the 3HKO on Empoleon thus making Empoleon a counter.
While I see it can take a few hits can I ask exactly what is Empoleon doing back to Greninja?
To address that question, there is only one possible solution: MAWR CALCS WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

252+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 192-226 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(With Fighting Type from low kick factored in and taking 12% from stealth rocks)
252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 261-307 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

It basically gets bodied if it isn't at full HP or doesn't have full special attack investment.
 
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Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder. If removing it does not change the metagame at all, then is a ban warranted?
1. GRENINJA DOES NOT HAVE 4MSS. It has been repeated so many goddamn times. Read through the damn thread.

2. Those sets are not 'sub par.' They are clearly used to hit checks. In one post you say Greninja is bad because it can't hit Empoleon and in another you say if it CAN hit Empoleon then it's not good. Greninja runs the set it wants to run to pick and choose what can counter it and what can't.

3. The meta will change. Assuming Greninja is banned, people will begin to find new Mons that are more useful, and use those. Of course, expect to see cookie cutter teams because, as long as they are in OU, Latios and Landorus-T are still S rank and are still amazing. Some people will use the best team they can find, regardless of usage stats.
 
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He two shots keldeo:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tentacruel can actually take a few hits:
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 99-118 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

He almost always 2-shots chansey after stealth rocks:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

He can one shot empoleon after rocks:
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Basically the only one of your mentioned Pokemon can actually take some hits from a standard Greninja running extra attack investment. That extra investment doesn't even limit Greninja that much if at all.
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 432-510 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 551-655 (136.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 491-580 (122.4 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 369-437 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 268-320 (41.7 - 49.8%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 213-252 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 556-658 (200.7 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 307-361 (85 - 100%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 296-351 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 283-335 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 484-577 (137.5 - 163.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 246-290 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 377-447 (113.8 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 390-460 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKOv
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 304-359 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 179-212 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 445-525 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 624-738 (163.3 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 187-221 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-291 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 491-580 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 243-289 (86.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 144-172 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 129-152 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 269-317 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 445-525 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 315-374 (105.3 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 238-281 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 289-343 (75.2 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 276-328 (77.9 - 92.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(guarented OHKO because of flying type before mega)
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 187-222 (77.5 - 92.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 212-251 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 382-452 (127.7 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 74-87 (23.2 - 27.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Manaphy: 148-175 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 177-211 (66.7 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 96 HP / 120 Def Smeargle: 471-556 (171.2 - 202.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 398-471 (127.9 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 424-502 (113.6 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-229 (58.7 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 165-196 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 237-281 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Volcarona: 220-259 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 562-660 (200 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 187-220 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 220 HP / 16 Def Celebi: 400-476 (101 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 299-354 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 598-707 (212.8 - 251.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 276-328 (63.8 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 491-580 (151.5 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 330-393 (86.8 - 103.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 257-304 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Edit: Stupid hide tag formatting is stupid.



To address that question, there is only one possible solution: MAWR CALCS WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

252+ SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 192-226 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(With Fighting Type from low kick factored in and taking 12% from stealth rocks)
252+ SpA Empoleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 261-307 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

It basically gets bodied if it isn't at full HP or doesn't have full special attack investment.
Just out of curiosity... when did greninja start running physical based mixed, rather than special based?

EDIT:
First off, most of the sets you guys are describing don't have priority. Priority T-Wave can shut this thing down. Simple as that. If that's not enough for you, there's a thing called Ferrothorn? Not sure if you've heard of it? A max attack Greninja 3HKOs it. Not including Leech Seed or GYRO BALL. There's a heavy speed difference.
Hp fire for ferrothorn, also: how will you get thundy in on it? Thundy will also die itself when twaving.
 

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Chansey, Alomomola, Keldeo, Empoleon, Tentacruel, Rotom-W, AV Conk, P2 are some pokes that can switch in and beat it. These are just its counters. Its list of checks is pretty fucking long. Your post is overrating Greninja to a large extent. I will say it again Versatility does not mean broken. It's influence on the metagame is simply not negative. I have played several games on the OU suspect ladder and the same cookie cutter teams show up, the exact same. Removing Greninja did not change the metagame at all. Yes, a few psychics have popped up like Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro but that doesn't mean it is having a negative effect on the metagame at all. It isn't unhealthy for the metagame and thus should NOT BE BANNED.
Let me prove that basically only one of those mons can actually wall greninja

244 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I don't know how many times I've posted this calc)
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 208-247 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-263 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 64-75 (17.9 - 21%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 214-253 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 151-179 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 52.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Basically everything can get two shotted except tentacruel if greninja has rocks support.
Just out of curiosity... when did greninja start running physical based mixed, rather than special based?
IMO it is the best spread for Greninja, so I tend to use it in my calcs.
 
First off, most of the sets you guys are describing don't have priority. Priority T-Wave can shut this thing down. Simple as that. If that's not enough for you, there's a thing called Ferrothorn? Not sure if you've heard of it? A max attack Greninja 3HKOs it. Not including Leech Seed or GYRO BALL. There's a heavy speed difference.
HP fire for Ferothorn. If it doesn't carry HP Fire, that will mean its team carries coverage to hit Ferro. If the team doesn't, that's bad team building. Simple as that.

Also, how does Thundurus get a safe switch in? Either on a slow volt-turn or a revenge kill, right? If Greninja can't get the knock out straight away, it switches out. So either the volt-turner dies before it can switch, or Greninja switches out and Thundurus has no switch. The other option is that it's a revenge kill. Three things- one, you're implying that something HAS to die before you can get a reliable check in. Two, if Greninja is important to stop the opposing team, it can easily be switched out, no para. Three, if the user decides they can deal with Greninja being Para'd, they hit Ice Beam and Bam, dead Thundurus. Greninja naturally outspeeds, so the only option for the Thundurus user is Thunder Wave. Ok, Greninja is crippled, but you've lost 2 Pokemon not to kill it but to slow it down. The thing isn't unstoppable, but Thundurus is definitely not a check or a counter.

Edit: Just realised you didn't say Thundurus in particular, but Klefki is in the same boat. Greninja can just switch out or hit HP Fire if it has it.
 
After actually testing Mixed Greninja in game, I have to say it should be banned (even though its a core of my team). Gunk Shot does too much damage to what is supposed to wall Greninja out. If you aren't taking out two or more pokemon with 40A/216SA/252Spe You are misplaying. Let's tally Greninja's sins:

1. It's hard to tell what move set is running and a pokemon almost always dies if you choose wrong (Mega Lucario)
2. Very few things outspeed it in it's tier. If you don't have priority, you probably aren't hitting it before it hits you. And with it's ability to hit hard, you probably won't come back from a hit (Mega Kangaskhan). This makes it able to sweep threats easily and potentially teams with little to no set up (Mega Blaziken).
3. It's versatile and has many builds, from special sweeper, to pivot, to lead, to anti-lead, to mixed attacker. Theoretically any team can add Greninja and be better.
4. The move pool is huge. Excluding Hidden Power, Greninja can have moves of 13 different types, excluding only Fairy Steel Electric Fire and Dragon.
5. Protean plus a high speed stat means getting a type advantage on it requires priority or prediction ability of Gods. This limits Counterplay.
6. If both players run Greninja, games always seem to be decided by which greninja KOs the most targets. Otherwise it is which one faints first.

My only worry with banning Greninja is Smogon has done a lot of bans recently. It's a slippery slope. Greninja is Toxic for OU right now, and if it isn't banned now it most certainly will be later. Greninja is IMO one of the two reasons we aren't having this discussion about Talonflame right now (the other being Stealth Rock). Will this ban make other pokemon OP to the point they require banning?
 
Sorry, excuse me on that, for a moment I remembered incorrectly.

However, it does get WoW for shutting down Physical sets, or the physical side of mixed.
No prankster can get safely in on Greninja. Specially defensive Klefki being your best bet but he is easily worn down by Greninja's teammates, doesn't help that it Klefki is rarely meant to stay alive for long to be play it's role effectively, like dual screener.

Please read the victory road section so that you can understand better why so many people want Greninja to get the boot.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...round-1-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles.3525052/
 
After actually testing Mixed Greninja in game, I have to say it should be banned (even though its a core of my team). Gunk Shot does too much damage to what is supposed to wall Greninja out. If you aren't taking out two or more pokemon with 40A/216SA/252Spe You are misplaying. Let's tally Greninja's sins:

1. It's hard to tell what move set is running and a pokemon almost always dies if you choose wrong (Mega Lucario)
2. Very few things outspeed it in it's tier. If you don't have priority, you probably aren't hitting it before it hits you. And with it's ability to hit hard, you probably won't come back from a hit (Mega Kangaskhan). This makes it able to sweep threats easily and potentially teams with little to no set up (Mega Blaziken).
3. It's versatile and has many builds, from special sweeper, to pivot, to lead, to anti-lead, to mixed attacker. Theoretically any team can add Greninja and be better.
4. The move pool is huge. Excluding Hidden Power, Greninja can have moves of 13 different types, excluding only Fairy Steel Electric Fire and Dragon.
5. Protean plus a high speed stat means getting a type advantage on it requires priority or prediction ability of Gods. This limits Counterplay.
6. If both players run Greninja, games always seem to be decided by which greninja KOs the most targets. Otherwise it is which one faints first.

My only worry with banning Greninja is Smogon has done a lot of bans recently. It's a slippery slope. Greninja is Toxic for OU right now, and if it isn't banned now it most certainly will be later. Greninja is IMO one of the two reasons we aren't having this discussion about Talonflame right now (the other being Stealth Rock). Will this ban make other pokemon OP to the point they require banning?

Okay so points 1, 3, 4, are all irrelevant IMO.

Point 1 can be applied to a number of Pokemon in the OU. Greninja just has something in common with it's OU brethren.
Point 3 can be used with the same logic as point 1. You can slap on something such as Dragonite, Garchomp, Landorus, etc. All those Pokemon have multiple builds and roles, and you shouldn't ban a Pokemon based on that principle.
Point 4. Mew, Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, etc. They can learn a multitude of moves to surprise, check, and sometimes counter. Again, Pokemon shouldn't be banned based on that principle.
 
Okay so points 1, 3, 4, are all irrelevant IMO.

Point 1 can be applied to a number of Pokemon in the OU. Greninja just has something in common with it's OU brethren.
Point 3 can be used with the same logic as point 1. You can slap on something such as Dragonite, Garchomp, Landorus, etc. All those Pokemon have multiple builds and roles, and you shouldn't ban a Pokemon based on that principle.
Point 4. Mew, Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, etc. They can learn a multitude of moves to surprise, check, and sometimes counter. Again, Pokemon shouldn't be banned based on that principle.
  • It becomes relevant when your coverage lets you hit every pokemon in OU hard enough to ohko/2hko them.
  • None of them have the same flexibility to adjust to the meta like Ninja and still hit stupidly hard. There is almost no downfall when adding Greninja to your team because it can be tailored towards your team needs.
  • Again, none of them have the same flexibility as Greninja, Protean lets it hit hard no matter what coverage move it uses and it makes type advantages irrelevant, something no other pokemon can boast of.
 
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We should just ignore the trolls until they go away.



Honestly I have been posting decent arguments pertaining to my position throughout this thread, and my one-liners actually have some substance to them. There is a huge difference between my posts and most of the shitposts in this thread, so I am pretty offended that you would say that to me.
Well you did feed the trolls.

Anyway, to validate this post, saying that Greninja can be outsped by scarfers is laugh worthy. The point of slapping a scarf on something is outspeeding stuff and revenge killing isn't anything new or amazing that counters Greninja. The fact still stands that this frog affects balance negatively (rip your cores) and that until you will lose some 'mons/get chunked hard as you scout its moveset. The new suspect ladder feels much cleaner and I am seeing a lot more variety in teams.
 

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Just made reqs and voting to ban this thing 100%. All the pertinent points have already made, but to recap: It sits in a very trollish speed tier (just like Garchomp in DPP and Thundurus in BW), and gets access to all the right moves to beat virtually all of its checks and counters. Furthermore, because of Protean, it does not need any type of setup when it can literally just get STAB on everything. It does not have 4MSS as some are arguing because (a) a good player will run the moves that fit best on their team and pack teammates that deal with, or even take advantage of the Pokemon that Greninja can't beat, and (b) you don't know what coverage moves it's running until you've potentially lost one, or even two Pokemon to a bad guess, and it does not have "mandatory STAB moves" in the traditional sense since it gets STAB on everything. Finally, unless an opponent is running a Scarf Gothitelle or Dugtrio, Greninja is not getting revenge killed, as it's too valuable, even at low health, since it can just come back in and kill something without taking a hit thanks to its insane speed.


The fact still stands that this frog affects balance negatively (rip your cores) and that until you will lose some 'mons/get chunked hard as you scout its moveset. The new suspect ladder feels much cleaner and I am seeing a lot more variety in teams.
This, this, and this. The old ladder, post-Salamence, really felt like all we were doing a lot of the time was trying to play around Greninja. When Greninja vs Greninja Speed ties are determining the outcome of entire battles in more than just isolated cases, something is wrong, and here's a hint: it's probably Greninja.
 

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Firstly: Don't feed the trolls. Seriously, it should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that DoubleMP was either trolling or woefully under qualified to post in this thread, just ignore the attention seeking "Look at me posts" and you avoid shitting up this thread for 2 pages. I know everyone wants to post the witty rebuttal they spent 2 hours working on, but leave it to the professionals and keep this thread on topic.

Secondly, I will ban the next eejit that tries to make a post claiming that just because Greninja has counters doesn't make it broken. Having (or not having) checks or counters is NEVER the sole reason to make a sweeping generalisation as to whether something should or should not be banned. There are Ubers that have OU tier or below counters, just as there are OU pokemon that have no counters. You can make a claim saying that Pokemon X requires an absurd amount of over centralisation to defend against it, or that said pokemon requires you to use shitmons in order to handle it correctly, and that would be an ok argument. You cannot say (for instance), that because Delibird can OHKO Rayquaza, that its a balanced force if it dropped into the OU metagame. I really don't want to come across as pro ban here (since I'm privy to excellent arguments from both sides) but please, add some intelligence to your posts, and this thread becomes better for it.
 
Just here to post my thoughts on Greninja: This frog has 122 Base Speed, which is a really great Speed tier (remember Garchomp in Gen 4 or Thundurus-I / Tornadus-T in Gen 5?) since pretty much nothing but Choice Scarf users and a handful of super-fast Mega pokemon can outpace it. Now, let's look at it's stats and abilitites. 93 Atk and 103 SpA seems weak and it would be if not for Protean, the Ability that grants the user STAB on every move. With a Life Orb equipped, this thing basically has a Whatever-ate ability on ALL of it's moves. As if that's not bad enough, let's look at it's movepool ; Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hidden Power Fire, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Hidden Power Grass, U-Turn, Spikes, Taunt, etc. With this wonderful movepool, Greninja can customize itself to get rid of specific threats and counters for the team and itself. Have trouble with Tentacruel / Mega Venusaur ? It won't enjoy STAB Extrasensory. Can't get rid of Jirachi / MegaBro ? Dark Pulse . Empoleon / Bisharp walls you? Eat Low Kick. Gyarados giving you a hard time? Grass Knot. Want to hit Mega Scizor? Hidden Power Fire. You get the idea. Whatever thing you want to get rid of, Greninja have just the right move for that. This means it does NOT have 4 MSS. As for threats that can "reliably" beat it such as Chansey, Porygon2, Klefki and Alomomola, these things are really passive and don't fit into any teams except Stall easily. Not to mention that Chansey, Porygon2 and Alomomola are easily trapped and Trick-ed by Gothilette so once that is done, Greninja is really given a free reign on the opponent's team since it can OHKO or 2HKO most things with its insane movepool.

Oh, and using a Choice Scarf users or Priority isn't foolproof either. Remember how strong Greninja's attacks are? So, in order to get in, your Scarf user has to take about 50 - 60% when factoring Stealth Rock and Life Orb (and that's assuming it doesn't predict the switch and OHKO you with the right move) OR wait until Greninja has KO-ed something and bring out the Scarf / Priority user. Problem is, you sac a Pokemon to threaten Greninja out and nothing is stopping it from coming in to wreck havoc later while you are forced to click the super obvious move (or you bring in your Scarf user / Priority user for nothing). Thus, Greninja applies too much pressure on it's opponent while bringing low cost to it's user.

Thirdly, people will argue that Greninja fares poorly against Stall and Hyper Offense teams. While that is true since Stall packs several Pokemon that can take hits from Greninja and HO packs strong priority users, Greninja can still pressure Stall with Spikes and threaten HO to sac a Pokemon each time it comes in. Therefore, Greninja will never be useless. Also, it completely obliterates Bulky Offense teams so players who want to play have to go to the extremes of HO or Stall to stand a chance or wait for their team to be dismantled by Greninja and its teammates (remember, this is not Greninja vs the world, it is 6 vs 6)

Tl, dr version: The combination of it's great Speed, Protean and movepool means Greninja is extremely unhealthy for the OU metagame. Just BAN it already.
 
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As much as I agree that Greninja should be banned, I feel like banning it would only cause more issues with the meta-game as Greninja is hands down one of the best checks to most of the defensive Pokes in OU at the moment (such as Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, and Heatran) and I feel like if it were to be banned, it would only cause even more strain on team building. If you want an example of this, just play OU at the moment, because all three of the Pokemon I noted as example are running rampant on nearly everyones teams currently. Also, Greninja does suffer greatly from four move-slot syndrome, so theres no definite way that it can counter everything and I feel like most teams would carry atleast one counter to each individual Greninja set. Overall, yeah, don't ban Greninja, because in the long run, it will just cause even more grief for all of us.
This is a slippery slope argument and it's been stated thousands of times why this is invalid. We don't keep toxic elements in the metagame just because there's a possibility it might open up new toxic elements once it's left. This is a complete logical fallacy as all you're doing is keeping the definite bad metagame in place of a metagame that only has a possibility of being bad.
 
After playing on the suspect ladder,I found it to be much more balanced.I think Gren deserves to go,it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick in ORAS and that was effectively an end of its reign in OU as it could counter Fairies,the only mons who could keep it in check.Come up with all the arguments you want,4MSS,getting revenge killed by Scarfed mons and priority,it doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculously tough to handle it.Try out the suspect ladder and see what a difference Greninja's ban will make
 
After actually testing Mixed Greninja in game, I have to say it should be banned (even though its a core of my team). Gunk Shot does too much damage to what is supposed to wall Greninja out. If you aren't taking out two or more pokemon with 40A/216SA/252Spe You are misplaying. Let's tally Greninja's sins:

1. It's hard to tell what move set is running and a pokemon almost always dies if you choose wrong (Mega Lucario)
2. Very few things outspeed it in it's tier. If you don't have priority, you probably aren't hitting it before it hits you. And with it's ability to hit hard, you probably won't come back from a hit (Mega Kangaskhan). This makes it able to sweep threats easily and potentially teams with little to no set up (Mega Blaziken).
3. It's versatile and has many builds, from special sweeper, to pivot, to lead, to anti-lead, to mixed attacker. Theoretically any team can add Greninja and be better.
4. The move pool is huge. Excluding Hidden Power, Greninja can have moves of 13 different types, excluding only Fairy Steel Electric Fire and Dragon.
5. Protean plus a high speed stat means getting a type advantage on it requires priority or prediction ability of Gods. This limits Counterplay.
6. If both players run Greninja, games always seem to be decided by which greninja KOs the most targets. Otherwise it is which one faints first.

My only worry with banning Greninja is Smogon has done a lot of bans recently. It's a slippery slope. Greninja is Toxic for OU right now, and if it isn't banned now it most certainly will be later. Greninja is IMO one of the two reasons we aren't having this discussion about Talonflame right now (the other being Stealth Rock). Will this ban make other pokemon OP to the point they require banning?

Fire Fist Ace commented your 1, 3, 4, I more or less agree.
Your other arguments here are speed and power.
But there are still a lot of faster mons and some are even more powerful, with those arguments we would need to ban almost every 122+ Spe Pokemon.
Lopunny-M, Sceptile-M, Aerodactyl-M - those are few of the mons that have higher speed and hit hard as well and it is not reason for them getting banned.
 
Fire Fist Ace commented your 1, 3, 4, I more or less agree.
Your other arguments here are speed and power.
But there are still a lot of faster mons and some are even more powerful, with those arguments we would need to ban almost every 122+ Spe Pokemon.
Lopunny-M, Sceptile-M, Aerodactyl-M - those are few of the mons that have higher speed and hit hard as well and it is not reason for them getting banned.
Yes but you use these at the cost of your Mega slot. Their speed is not as high as Greninja's before mega evolving (maybe with the exception of Aero, I can't remember its base speed for the life of me). You can't put these into any team and have no drawbacks, as some teams already have Megas and there are so many times where you have them in but they are too slow to mega evolve and deal with the threat without giving up coverage for protect. Greninja has no drawbacks to use it and can go in any team and perform its role perfectly.
Also, and I stress this point, they don't get STAB EVERYTHING.
 
Yes but you use these at the cost of your Mega slot. Their speed is not as high as Greninja's before mega evolving (maybe with the exception of Aero, I can't remember its base speed for the life of me). You can't put these into any team and have no drawbacks, as some teams already have Megas and there are so many times where you have them in but they are too slow to mega evolve and deal with the threat without giving up coverage for protect. Greninja has no drawbacks to use it and can go in any team and perform its role perfectly.
Also, and I stress this point, they don't get STAB EVERYTHING.
Lopunny has Fake Out and Aero's base speed is... I think it is not that hard to mega evolve before or to include Protect.
But to your point. I don't think that just because "Greninja isn't mega evolution" he should be banned. I find Mega Evolution to be as good as some standard Pokemon, not to be over them.
 
Lopunny has Fake Out and Aero's base speed is... I think it is not that hard to mega evolve before or to include Protect.
But to your point. I don't think that just because "Greninja isn't mega evolution" he should be banned. I find Mega Evolution to be as good as some standard Pokemon, not to be over them.
These are all stopped by certain Pokemon though. Greninja's checks are all shaky at best. It isn't being banned just because it's fast-Electrode is fast-but because it's got massive power and very few checks and no true counters, and STAB EVERYTHING
 
I've just finished the suspect and I'm not gonna say the same things that people have already said. I'll obiously vote BAN for the reasons already explained by others, I just want to say that I really liked the amount/rise of balanced/stall teams that Greninja easily (more or less) beat but thinking better it is a problem for all playstyles, hope this is just the beginning of a series of ban that would lead to a very balanced metagame
 

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Fire Fist Ace commented your 1, 3, 4, I more or less agree.
Your other arguments here are speed and power.
But there are still a lot of faster mons and some are even more powerful, with those arguments we would need to ban almost every 122+ Spe Pokemon.
Lopunny-M, Sceptile-M, Aerodactyl-M - those are few of the mons that have higher speed and hit hard as well and it is not reason for them getting banned.
One again, I must state that it is a combination of these traits that makes Greninja broken, not any one or two traits by themselves.

Now to give this post some more substance, let me give my final overview of Greninja, and what makes him broken. Greninja is the final evolved version of the water Kalos starter, froakie, and has two abilities in torrent and protean. Torrent boosts the power of Greninja's water type moves while its HP is below 33%. While this is a decent ability, the prime ability and the reason why Greninja is being suspected is protean which changes Greninja's type to match the move that it is using, which means that he gets STAB on EVERY FLIPPING ATTACK. Not only that but Greninja has a blazing fast speed tier at 122, and is sitting pretty with over base 100 stats in each attacking stat. While his attack stats may seem mediocre for an OU sweeper, the extra power he gets from protean coupled with a life orb makes Greninja a dominant force in the metagame. Balanced teams are basically singlehandedly destroyed by Greninja, and the top OU players and ladderers alike have been forced to resort to using stall and HO teams because Greninja would blow their regular team out of the water. If two teams have Greninja, the loser is the one whose Greninja faints last. Greninja is such a dominant force in the OU meta that player have had to run previously obscure mons like porygon2 and empoleon just to take down Greninja, and these mons are both two shotted by 244 attack Greninja. Greninja can 1-2 shot basically the entire OU tier with one set, and the over centralization as well it brings as well as how unhealthy it is for the metagame is appalling. It isn't to the level of mega salamence, but it is pretty damn close because you aren't going to get past 1100 on the ladder unless you have 2-3 Greninja checks/counters on your team. Also, you need to protect your Greninja check all game or else your team is toast because basically everything can be KOd by Greninja if it is at low enough HP. Lastly, Greninja has so many viable movesets that if the meta adapts to it, its common moveset can change to adapt to the meta. Tentacruel and Klefki both are threats that can take 3-5 hits from the common dpulse/ice beam/gunk shit/low kick Greninja set before going down. Greninja simply needs to change dark pulse to HP fire and do 75-90% to Klefki or he can change it to extrasensory to do 70-85% to Tentacruel. This means that no Pokemon in the entire meta can take Greninja 1v1 without losing to one of his sets. Even Talonflame loses because the common SD set fails to one shot Greninja. This is my final opinion on Greninja and I think we can all agree that greninja needs a ban. NO MORE NARUTOAD FOR U.

tl;dr: Greninja is a powerful and dynamic offensive threat that is unhealthy for the metagame.

BAN HIM NOW.
I'll go get some reqs and post them to make this vote official.

Edit: added some more info
 
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