np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[AlphaGiratina]

Some facts that my fellow Anti-Ban compatriots should keep in mind before posting:

• Nobody regards 4MSS as a valid argue net for why Greninja's shouldn't be banned
• If you argue that Greninja's has counters, remember that in the heat of a battle you don't know what move Greninja is running until he uses it, and the knot way to accurately asses which moves he runs is by looking at his team, which is an unreliable strategy that can screw you over
• The only real hard counters to Greninja are Chansey and P2, despite people saying "Oh it gets low kick fighting>normal". However, P2 is not viable in OU. I disagree that it's a passive mon due to it carrying discharge, ice beam, tri attack and the like, but it's just not good in a Knock-Off filled metagame, and Chansey can be 2HKO'd with enough hazard support and a high roll. Technically, one can argue that Greninja's has no counters, but we can play around this fact using other examples from the past, if you are wise (BW Hydreigon, anyone?)
• If you don't post intelligently and only state your opinion, people can use your statements against you as a reason for why Greninja's should be banned.

Just remember that the evidence is there for why Greninja's shouldn't be banned, but currently all those against the ban are fighting an uphill battle as the pro-bans have a prior edge due to more intelligent posting and more obvious evidence.

 

[Aelsorm]

Not really. You can counter something but in greninja's case, he has the movepool to check whatever he wants. You have to consider the amount of pressure he puts on a team by himself. Yes, if we pick something like CharX or MegaGross, they do apply pressure too. Unlike greninja tho, if your team is decently build, you could feel safe facing them. They may have a move to handle some of their counters but they lose something important in return aka a coverage or a support move they really need. Greninja on the other, despite having 2 "counters", you still fear him in case he has the moves for you while he doesn't sacrifice coverage in return. All he needs is ice beam and gunk shot as many stated before me. I won't deny, the way I put it is a bit simplistic but I didn't feel like writing a novel XD

You can still run Meteor Mash, Rock Slide, EQ Metagross that covers every Pokemon (nothing resists all 3) and you still have a slot for 4th move (support move).
So MegaGross is just the same.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Now take out all the fairies because Gren should always run Gunk unless your win con is an offensive steel that sets up on fairies. Chansey because its trash on balance, Ferro because it can't take two low kicks, and conk because it can't take two Gunk Shots. Everything left is what can actually check it on balance. Someone should calc Gyarados after rocks and M Venu after rocks BTW, I'm on mobile so I can't.

Wait, which sets for each of them? I can calc physically defensive Mega Venu and bulky Gyara right now, as they're better checks than other variants

240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(129, 130, 130, 133, 134, 136, 136, 138, 140, 142, 144, 144, 146, 148, 149, 152)
-1 240 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 165-195 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(165, 168, 169, 172, 173, 175, 177, 179, 181, 183, 185, 187, 188, 191, 192, 195)

So I guess Mega Venu, when defensive, is a relatively safe counter but bulky Gyara isn't...interesting

 

[mcandrew5629]

I honestly would like to argue the point that I made earlier. I still don't agree with the fact that Greninja should be banned JUST BEFCAUSE of his versatility because Greninja was OU throughout the entire XY metagame. With the addition of Gunk Shot and Low Kick (Two unreliable moves imo), people are talking about how it can pretty much deal with the entire metagame. If that's the case, Greninja will most likely run Gunk Shot and Low Kick, making for easy predictions and an even more reduced moveslots. A pokemon isn't perfect, Greninja that runs 4 moves will expose him in some places, and its very easy (Imo) to predict its moves, especially when looking at Team Preview.

A lot of banned Pokemon are usually banned because they are extremely easy to slap onto a team and wreak havok without doing anything. Even with predictions, these Pokemon can destroy teams no problem. In the case of Greninja, needing these very niche moves to counter specfic mons just makes for easy predictions. Versatility is NOT an issue in my opinion.

I'm still going to call for a ban though, because of the fact that Greninja has more than just versatility, including an amazing speed tier, decent offensive stats, and overall just the ability to fit into any team without problem.

 

[SketchUp]

All the calcs only apply when the pokemon is at full health. However, I rarely see a Greninja leading / being used early game. It is often used mid game when hazards are up and walls are already a little bit weakened (not hard because Greninja is often paired up with voltturn and voltturn is very good at getting chip damage) so the 3HKO or low chance on 2HKO on Chansey quickly turns into a solid 2HKO. When playing with defensive teams I never have all my pokemon at full health. Chansey comes in on a Rotom-W, Rotom-W volt switches and Chansey is forced out. Add Stealth Rock damage and Chansey is already on 80% and it has no time to recover because something else threatens it out every time

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Oh, I posted the calc almost three times.
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 221-265 (31.3 - 37.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

How about posting viable sets. Anybody running chansey like that is bad just saying.

244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 270-320 (42 - 49.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

As a fan I don't want Greninja to get banned to the Ubers, but I'm just jumping on the bandwagon since some reasonable points are being tossed around. Instead of looking at Greninja, we should look at Pokemon similar to it and see how it stacks. For instance, Talonflame can be set up next to Greninja and upon comparison, the two share a very similar role in most sets: to support, scout, and/or revenge kill. Talonflame has a worse typing, but it has priority in the form of BB. Greninja does not, although it can change it's typing depending on the moveset. Both can run mixed movesets as well as Life Orb although Gren has higher stats. On the other hand, we can look at Landorus who is a slower, tankier, Greninja, albeit without Protean. Landorus can sometimes check it's own checks and this logic can be applied to Greninja too.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Greninja should not be banned. He can be revenge killed by the following:
-Talonflame (Bravebird) when Greninja is Grass or Fighting type
-Scizor/Scizor-M (Bullet Punch) when Greninja is Ice type
-Bisharp (Sucker Punch) when Greninja is Psychic type
Protean can be both an asset and a weakness to Greninja, and there are many more Pokemon in OU that can Revenge Kill Greninja. Scarfed Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Diggersby can outspeed and one-shot Greninja with Earthquake, and Terrakion can OHKO Greninja with Close Combat, no matter what type Greninja is. can also OHKO Greninja. Many forget that as powerful as the ninja frog is, he is frail as heck, and life orb recoil racks up on a 'mon that can't take multiple hits. And all of the Scarfed Pokemon I have mentioned, bar Diggersby, and survive Water Shuriken, even if it hits 5 times. In conclusion, Greninja should not be banned, and before anyone says anything, I HATE playing against Greninja, but I have always managed to knock him out with very little damage to my team.

Buddy, this much is obvious. The question isn't whether or not Greninja is too bulky for OU, it's what can switch in on him safely and degfeat home? Revenge killing him is easy....

 

[Kurona]

Greninja should not be banned. He can be revenge killed by the following:
-Talonflame (Bravebird) when Greninja is Grass or Fighting type
-Scizor/Scizor-M (Bullet Punch) when Greninja is Ice type
-Bisharp (Sucker Punch) when Greninja is Psychic type
Protean can be both an asset and a weakness to Greninja, and there are many more Pokemon in OU that can Revenge Kill Greninja. Scarfed Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Diggersby can outspeed and one-shot Greninja with Earthquake, and Terrakion can OHKO Greninja with Close Combat, no matter what type Greninja is. can also OHKO Greninja. Many forget that as powerful as the ninja frog is, he is frail as heck, and life orb recoil racks up on a 'mon that can't take multiple hits. And all of the Scarfed Pokemon I have mentioned, bar Diggersby, and survive Water Shuriken, even if it hits 5 times. In conclusion, Greninja should not be banned, and before anyone says anything, I HATE playing against Greninja, but I have always managed to knock him out with very little damage to my team.

We all know Greninja can be easily revenge-killed. What you seem to ignore is that it can switch out and that it has five other teammates to deal with those Pokémon rather easily. All you're doing is counting Greninja as one Pokémon vs a full team of 6 when that is not the case. I like to compare it to Mega Gengar - it's also frail, stupidly fast and stupidly powerful. It's role wasn't to 6-0 sweep teams like Megamence or Blaziken did, but it provided massive support to the team, having a guaranteed kill on at least one or in most cases two of the opponent's team. It could be revenge killed by Bisharp, or Talonflame or what have you. That didn't matter, because Gengar had already done it's job or it could just switch out. By using revenge killers as your argument you are also admitting that to kill Greninja you have to sacrifice one of your Pokémon.

To all anti-ban people, if you're using revenge killers as an argument, all you're doing is strengthening the argument that Greninja gets a guaranteed kill every match and hence reaches almost Mega Gengar levels of team support.

 

[Cogito]

Kinda just realized that Latias and Latios Mega are both OU. Could they be classified as Greninja checks? Not very good at damage calculation, but I think a Latias-M could survive an Orb-boosted Ice Beam

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latios: 281-330 (93.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Depends on the role but I say no. Also if Draco misses, you are royally screwed.

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

Then why ban something that can be killed so easily? M-Mence was banned because he could deal so much damage and be so hard to kill, a perfectly good reason to be banned, but Greninja can be easily killed. Also, his counters are all very good in their own right, and they too can be fitted into balanced and offensive teams. In my opinion, only if something is almost impossible to check, or has very obscure counters should be banned. Just because some people have trouble getting around it, doesn't mean he should be banned.

With that kind of logic, Aegislash, Mega-Mawile, and Mega-Kanghaskhan should each be knocked down to OU. Aegislash was never impossible to check when Earthquake was in the mix, and the same can be applied for Mawile. Kanghaskhan could even be stopped by a nice Hammer Arm from just about anything good enough to tank a hit from Mega-khan.

@edit: You can destroy an Aegislash if you can hit it in Sword form, which would invalidate your argument anyways. Greninja can't be dealt with so easily because most people will switch out of it when they see a Pokemon they cant deal with

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Then why ban something that can be killed so easily? M-Mence was banned because he could deal so much damage and be so hard to kill, a perfectly good reason to be banned, but Greninja can be easily killed. Also, his counters are all very good in their own right, and they too can be fitted into balanced and offensive teams. In my opinion, only if something is almost impossible to check, or has very obscure counters should be banned. Just because some people have trouble getting around it, doesn't mean he should be banned.

Because of this handy thing called switching, invented in 1999
All jokes aside, people act like Greninja is the only thing being suspected. If it's Greninja alone vs six pokes, Greninaloses every time. It's the fact that Greninja combined with a team he supports might be too much for OU atm. Personally I say no and agree with you, but I disagree with your reasons for why Greninja isn't broken. Look at M Gengar and Blaziken, they're frail too, but what they have in common with Greninja is an ability that, in Greninja's case, may or may not be broken considering theirs stats, move pools, etc.

 

[Firebird101]

Then why ban something that can be killed so easily? M-Mence was banned because he could deal so much damage and be so hard to kill, a perfectly good reason to be banned, but Greninja can be easily killed. Also, his counters are all very good in their own right, and they too can be fitted into balanced and offensive teams. In my opinion, only if something is almost impossible to check, or has very obscure counters should be banned. Just because some people have trouble getting around it, doesn't mean he should be banned.

Cause Greninja isn't a setup sweeper who doesn't like to be forced out. Greninja has no problem with switching out when threaten and come in when the opponent has a mon who can't do much against it.

And no. P2, Chansey and Alomomola only belong on a stall team and Tentacruel and Empoleon are shaky checks at best due to Ninja possessing the coverage to dent them.

You don't need to be a monster like Mega Salamence to get banned, if a mon's influence is negative to the metagame and just creates a stale metagame I think it is a good enough reason to warrant a ban.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Cause it Greninja isn't a setup sweeper who doesn't like to be forced out. Greninja has no problem with switching out when threaten and come in when the opponent has a mon who can't do much against it.

And no. P2, Chansey and Alomomola only belong on a stall team and Tentacruel and Empoleon are shaky checks at best due to Ninja possessing the coverage to dent them.

You don't need to be a monster like Mega Salamence to get banned, if a mon's influence is negative to the metagame and just creates a stale metagame I think it is a good enough reason to warrant a ban.

Well, stale meta as opposed to what? From my conversations with others and my own PS laddering experience recently, I've come to the conclusion that the suspect ladder just seems to be repetitive and old. Can we get some usage on the suspect ladder, anyone? I'm actually interested to see exactly what pokes benefit from the Greninja ban based off usage in the suspect ladder, not just from hearsay like someone saying "Oh Mega Metagross is a lot more common without Greninja". Until then, I'll say I prefer the metagame with Greninja more by far.

 

[Chaoswalker]

The revenge kill argument applies primarily to setup sweepers. If a pokemon is frail, but needs swords dance to do damage, then being forced to switch out is a decent loss for that pokemon. Half its damage is gone, and you have to really slip up for it to get that setup opportunity again. Greninja doesn't give half a damn about switching except maybe that it will take stealth rocks on entry.

Except Greninja makes players think. OU has always been lacking of creativity and unpredictability compared to the other tiers, and a Pokemon like Greninja helps players grow and get better. First few times I played against Greninja in XY and ORAS OU, I lost. However, I learned from my losses, fixed my team, learned Greninja's weak points, and now I have little trouble going up against him or other 'mons who play like him. Greninja is good for the meta, he just doesn't seem like it from the outside.

Don't worry, we have Mega Gardevoir, Landorus Incarnate, Thundurus Incarnate, and Gengar to keep us all guessing with their extensive nearly unwallable coverage. They all have 110 speed tier tops though, making them much more manageable.
EDIT: Thundurus is 111, silly me

Well, stale meta as opposed to what? From my conversations with others and my own PS laddering experience recently, I've come to the conclusion that the suspect ladder just seems to be repetitive and old. Can we get some usage on the suspect ladder, anyone? I'm actually interested to see exactly what pokes benefit from the Greninja ban based off usage in the suspect ladder, not just from hearsay like someone saying "Oh Mega Metagross is a lot more common without Greninja". Until then, I'll say I prefer the metagame with Greninja more by far.

Greninja doesn't make the metagame diverse, it IS the diversity. It brings huge variety to the team carrying it, while forcing all foes to carry two checks for it. Actually, you'll probably want one or two ninjachecks even if you are carrying it yourself.

 

[AlphaGiratina]

Except Greninja makes players think. OU has always been lacking of creativity and unpredictability compared to the other tiers, and a Pokemon like Greninja helps players grow and get better. First few times I played against Greninja in XY and ORAS OU, I lost. However, I learned from my losses, fixed my team, learned Greninja's weak points, and now I have little trouble going up against him or other 'mons who play like him. Greninja is good for the meta, he just doesn't seem like it from the outside.

This just made me cringe. A Luck-based meta is not a good meta at all, granted I don't think that's what Greninja does to the meta necessarily, but if someone just looked at your comment and was taking a position on if Greninja should be banned, they'd say to ban the damn thing! 50/50s and over-reliability on perfect predictions is why stuff like Aegi was banned, and your comment pretty much defends the Gren ban instead of pointing out flaws with it.

 

[Firebird101]

Except Greninja makes players think. OU has always been lacking of creativity and unpredictability compared to the other tiers, and a Pokemon like Greninja helps players grow and get better. First few times I played against Greninja in XY and ORAS OU, I lost. However, I learned from my losses, fixed my team, learned Greninja's weak points, and now I have little trouble going up against him or other 'mons who play like him. Greninja is good for the meta, he just doesn't seem like it from the outside.

Not really, Greninja forces guessing and overcentralization, you can try slapping Tentacruel on your team to counter Greninja's most standard set but some of them carry Extrasensory so Greninja can ohko your supposed counter just like that. Same story with Empoleon and praying Greninja doesn't have Low Kick. So you are gonna need at least two pokemon just to handle Greninja unless you wanna make a stall team. That is over-centralization.

You can adapt to Greninja's most common sets but regardless it forces you carry at least two pokemon to handle Greninja and that is a serious strain on teambuilding and without Greninja we are allowed much more freedom and creativity in our teambuilding.

 

[mcandrew5629]

Except Greninja makes players think. OU has always been lacking of creativity and unpredictability compared to the other tiers, and a Pokemon like Greninja helps players grow and get better. First few times I played against Greninja in XY and ORAS OU, I lost. However, I learned from my losses, fixed my team, learned Greninja's weak points, and now I have little trouble going up against him or other 'mons who play like him. Greninja is good for the meta, he just doesn't seem like it from the outside.

Nope, Greninja has too many good moves that take advantage of Protean. Yes, I do agree that thinking is important for the meta, but in Greninja's case, its far from that. While Greninja is very unique and fun to use, it is a monster in adapting. Because Greninja can adapt to pretty much anything, I personally think it's time for 'ninja to go.

 

[Raikaria]

252+ SpA Pixilate Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 148+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 110-130 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 53.4% chance to 3HKO
These kids and their arguing without checking...
Mega Altaira is counter to some sets of Charizard X, indeed. Same is Sylveon counter to Greninja's some sets.

Meanwhile said Charizard is tickling Mega Altaria. It's not like Zard is going to be Will-O-Wisping Altaria to death; it can run Roost, and is a Special Attacker. And Flare Blitzing M-Altaria brings with it recoil.

You can still run Meteor Mash, Rock Slide, EQ Metagross that covers every Pokemon (nothing resists all 3) and you still have a slot for 4th move (support move).
So MegaGross is just the same.

MegaGross also has Base 110 speed only [And Base 70 on the turn of Mega Evolution], and doesn't get STAB EVERYTHING. It also happens to be weak to Ghost [Very good coverage type] and Ground [Very common type] and Dark [Sucker Punch anyone?]. Megagross has priority weaknesses, Greninja has no weakness to priority until it changes type; and it's 2 most common types [Water/Poison] lack those anyway.

And again, Mega Metagross takes up your Mega Slot. There is a heavy opportunity cost to running it. You can't run Zard, you can't run Mega Altaria. You can't run any other Mega. Greninja has no such cost. Compareing Greninja to Megas is a flawed argument, since you can only run a single Mega. The teambuilding cost of including Greninja on your team is negligible. You can slap Greninja into any team and it will be a lynchpin. You don't slap Megagross onto every team, you build a team around Megagross.

And honestly, perfect coverage isn't the thing. Fighting/Ghost has perfect coverage. It's power+coverage+speed. And Greninja has all three in spades thanks to it's STAB everything.

 

[greengrappler]

I am just going to put in my two cents (may be worth less but who knows)
Greninja is a very interesting case, if someone were to tell me "There's this pokemon who has 122 base speed and 103 base special attack, and it is OP." I would think they must have hit their head on some hard object, but if they told me it could change type I would agree.
Protean is a great ability; STAB on everything is just insane, as it makes you incredible offensively, but also defensively. Opponent brings in a grass type to hit you super effectively, use HP fire to resist it. Protean + Greninja's move pool make predicting him too hard IMO, "Which of his coverage moves is he running?" "What will he hit me with?" "What type will he be when I hit him?" "Will he switch?" This thing is just like Aegislash, too unpredictable. I must say I am not sure what should happen to him, as I have not played ORAS OU yet, but from what people keep saying, I am in favor of a ban.

 

[ginganinja]

Deleted 37 posts. I don't think I would respond to Aelsorm, especially as it was most of his posts I ended up purging. Keep the general discussion on Greninja please, not on whether certain OU pokemon also have counters / checks.

 

[Firebird101]

Well, stale meta as opposed to what? From my conversations with others and my own PS laddering experience recently, I've come to the conclusion that the suspect ladder just seems to be repetitive and old. Can we get some usage on the suspect ladder, anyone? I'm actually interested to see exactly what pokes benefit from the Greninja ban based off usage in the suspect ladder, not just from hearsay like someone saying "Oh Mega Metagross is a lot more common without Greninja". Until then, I'll say I prefer the metagame with Greninja more by far.

I don't have access to any usage stats so you can only take my word for it when I say it is far easier and allows more freedom when it comes to teambuilding. Overused mons such as Latios and Lando-T are gonna stay overused because they are just so useful but almost all mons benefit from Greninja's departure.

Notable examples: Clefable, Tornadus-T, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, the Lati twins, Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, Starmie and a lot more I know I'm missing but all of them were forced out by Greninja and can do so much more in the ladder without it.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Chansey, Alomomola, Keldeo, Empoleon, Tentacruel, Rotom-W, AV Conk, P2 are some pokes that can switch in and beat it. These are just its counters. Its list of checks is pretty fucking long. Your post is overrating Greninja to a large extent. I will say it again Versatility does not mean broken. It's influence on the metagame is simply not negative. I have played several games on the OU suspect ladder and the same cookie cutter teams show up, the exact same. Removing Greninja did not change the metagame at all. Yes, a few psychics have popped up like Mega Metagross and Mega Slowbro but that doesn't mean it is having a negative effect on the metagame at all. It isn't unhealthy for the metagame and thus should NOT BE BANNED.

It one hits or two hit Kos all of those but porygon 2. Seriously people can you not run a simple calculator? I hate to be that guy but if you'd actually read maybe you'd see they're not close to counters.

 

[Karxrida]

Only if it runs sub par sets. In order to beat Chansey and Empoleon it'll have to run a lot of attack investment. In order to beat Keldeo and Tentacruel it'll have to run Extrasensory which isn't an ideal move for ninja because of its 4MSS. You are ignoring the opportunity cost in running these sub par sets. And thanks for ignoring the rest of the argument that Ninja's overall influence on the metagame is not unhealthy since the same teams are showing up again and again on the OU suspect ladder. If removing it does not change the metagame at all, then is a ban warranted?

Physically Defensive Empoleon is 2HKO'd after rocks like 55% of the time with the standard 40 Attack EVs. Chansey does require a lot of investment... unless you wear it down, which isn't too hard when it doesn't have Lefties, is extremely easy to lure out for double switches, and is neutral to Rock.

 

[Kurona]

You know there's all this talk about Greninja missing the 3HKO on Empoleon thus making Empoleon a counter.
While I see it can take a few hits can I ask exactly what is Empoleon doing back to Greninja?