I disagree. Without greninja, stall is just more difficult to take down now, considering that greninja is no longer there to lure chansey. Mega sableye can also take whatever greninja has, so stall is already sufficient in dealing with this threat.
Aww I'm feeling the loveThis is the best post in this thread. It covers every pro- and anti-ban argument and explains ninja's brokenness in the simplest yet most thorough ways possible. We need to stop looking at these suspects in a vacuum and realize that they have five teammates. And sure, the person defending against Greninja has six Pokemon of their own, but it just so happens that the person with Greninja on their team usually has the upper hand by virtue of it being who it is.
Remember that Greninja has 5 other teammates along side it, 5 teammates that can clean up the damage that Greninja can inflict. Greninja's "Scarf/Priority" checks are painfully obvious (thanks to Greninja's 123 Speed), to be quite honest, and the Greninja user can simply get a free shot on the check (OHKO/2HKO grounds), switch out to its teammate that resists or checks/counters said check, and have the cycle repeat again.You are NOT flipping a coin the chance is 1/4 that you are toast and think once from the side of the greninja user its as hard to predict if the enemy is gonna send in the choice scarfer that can ohko it or the priority user that can ohko it... and it really does NOT get much opportunities to come in if its forced out!
Regardless how difficult it may be for the Greninja user to choose what move to select it is undeniably at the overwhelming advantage for being able to hit hard regardless what move it chooses. Prediction indeed goes ways and being able to ohko/2hko every OU pokemon beside the ones who only belong on stall with such great speed makes it almost impossible to deal with unless you only play hyper-offense or stall. That is the very high low risk/high reward output people are talking about and it is a quality only Greninja currently possesses in OU and letting it stay would send us back to the early XY where the extreme play-style dominate.You are NOT flipping a coin the chance is 1/4 that you are toast and think once from the side of the greninja user its as hard to predict if the enemy is gonna send in the choice scarfer that can ohko it or the priority user that can ohko it... and it really does NOT get much opportunities to come in if its forced out!
Basically every sweeper 2HKO or OHKO everything besides the STALL...Regardless how difficult it may be for the Greninja user to choose what move to select it is undeniably at the overwhelming advantage for being able to hit hard regardless what move it chooses. Prediction indeed goes ways and being able to ohko/2hko every OU pokemon beside the ones who only belong on stall with such great speed makes it almost impossible to deal with unless you only play hyper-offense or stall. That is the very high low risk/high reward output people are talking about and it is a quality only Greninja currently possesses in OU and letting it stay would send us back to the early XY where the extreme play-style dominate.
The whole point of having a ladder without greninja is to pick which meta we like better
Aldaron said:There is a very important point I want all of you to focus on: do not vote / post about "liking x metagame better." That isn't the purpose of our tests...the purpose is finding out whether or not Genesect is broken, which is why, in special applications, we'll probably emphasize the ladder that has it included. The ladder without it is for you to better grasp the context of the metagame and see firsthand what happens when it is gone and from this, more completely understand what about its overall presence broke the metagame...not to use as evidence of a subjectively preferable metagame.
I'd think you'd be best going to the ORAS Metagame thread with this; since that's been talking about greninja-less metagame the past few days.Also I dont know if this is the place to talk about it, but tornadus therian has gotten much better in the absence of greninja, since greninja was the ultimate troll and outsped by 1 point. It is a very fast and powerful special attacker, as well as mixed, and I think now that greninja is out of the picture it has a better place in the OU metagame. I was using my boy daftmau5's team with it, and was absolutely destroying the ladder with it. I only mention it because I havent seen too much discussion on him, but I think he is quite largely impact by greninja leaving, and is now one of the fastest non mega/unscarfed mon in the tier, which is pretty nice.
Yes, you are doing just that because unless you're running full stall you can't guarantee that your team is completely safe from Greninja thanks to it's pace, power, movepool and ability. When your opponent sends Greninja out, you have to face the possibility that it could be carrying that one move that will make your team fall apart like a house of cards. It's not even hard for the Greninja user to figure out what to do in uncertain situations; he could just switch it out and save it for later or he could predict a switch in and 2HKO/OHKO it. It doesn't need more than a few opportunities to come in and wreak havoc. And you can't always force it out because you can't always have a scarfer or priority user out against it.You are NOT flipping a coin the chance is 1/4 that you are toast and think once from the side of the greninja user its as hard to predict if the enemy is gonna send in the choice scarfer that can ohko it or the priority user that can ohko it... and it really does NOT get much opportunities to come in if its forced out!
Because they want to ban him just because he has "no counters" (overlooking his counters).
But for example ZardX doesnt have counter and IS in OU. So I cannot see this as a reason to ban a Pokemon, when the other Pokemon with same circumstances remains in OU.
So, yeah, this entire parallel to Charizard X is pointless and needs to be dropped because, as it clearly states in the mandatory reading, the existence of checks and counters is not an immediate indicator that something isn't broken. Also, please, read the thread. Countless times it has been pointed out that Greninja's issue isn't a lack of checks and counters, it's a lack of checks and counters that can be reliably used on balance teams. You are just rehashing old arguments that have been addressed repeatedly and derailing the thread.Suspect Thread Etiquette (Read before Posting in Suspect Threads) said:-Secondly, just because something lacks counters / checks does NOT mean it is instantly broken. Cube, BW Hydreigon etc were / are all impossible to switch into, but that does not instantly make them broken. However, if something DOES have checks and counters, this doesn't make it NOT broken either. Genesect had counters, Aegislash had counters (specific to its set) and so on. Also take not that if you parade around a collection of shitty mons that situationally counter a suspect, I will flat out delete your post. It might even give you an infraction. I know that myself, rey, and pretty much every other OU mod is tired of seeing people discuss Arcanine, Weezing, Quillfish and pretty much anything else. Hint: if you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, than its potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is.
The concern is less with how easy it is to use Greninja on a team(heck see Lando-T) but more with teams, particularly Balanced teams, being able to safely deal with variants of Greninja. Greninja is blessed (or cursed) with a movepool that, is way too large for small defensive cores to safely deal with, and its speed puts it out of range of everything but Priority users and Scarfers, both of which have a tendency to be easily worn down and removed (that and Greninja can switch). While this isn't a huge issue for stall as far as I know, it makes it extremely difficult for balanced teams to deal with due to the small defensive cores and the lack of room for priority users and Scarfers.I still don't see any good reason to ban Greninja.
I have understand that there is no 4MSS issue since he is running the moves the team wants him to have blablabla
But isn't it the case for a lot of other mons? I mean, it's the point of teambuilding, choosing a mon with the set that helps the team the most.
So it comes down to "Greninja can run a lot of different team and fit in every team due to his wonderful movepool (and others qualities) !"
Is that a reason to ban Greninja? I think it's just what make Greninja a wonderful and useful mon in the current metagame.
Not really. You can counter something but in greninja's case, he has the movepool to check whatever he wants. You have to consider the amount of pressure he puts on a team by himself. Yes, if we pick something like CharX or MegaGross, they do apply pressure too. Unlike greninja tho, if your team is decently build, you could feel safe facing them. They may have a move to handle some of their counters but they lose something important in return aka a coverage or a support move they really need. Greninja on the other, despite having 2 "counters", you still fear him in case he has the moves for you while he doesn't sacrifice coverage in return. All he needs is ice beam and gunk shot as many stated before me. And even if he doesn't cary the move, he can 2HKO with something else. I won't deny, the way I put it is a bit simplistic but I didn't feel like writing a novel XDWith this argument there is no counter to anything you came up with. Not even Delibird can be countered applying this argument.
Now take out all the fairies because Gren should always run Gunk unless your win con is an offensive steel that sets up on fairies. Chansey because its trash on balance, Ferro because it can't take two low kicks, and conk because it can't take two Gunk Shots. Everything left is what can actually check it on balance. Someone should calc Gyarados after rocks and M Venu after rocks BTW, I'm on mobile so I can't.Otherwise:
Greninja's counter that came to my mind
W/o Gunk Shot
W/o HP Electric
W/o HP Fire
and those are just that came into my mind while thinking about it. I will not do deep research.