I disagree. Without greninja, stall is just more difficult to take down now, considering that greninja is no longer there to lure chansey. Mega sableye can also take whatever greninja has, so stall is already sufficient in dealing with this threat.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
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I disagree. Without greninja, stall is just more difficult to take down now, considering that greninja is no longer there to lure chansey. Mega sableye can also take whatever greninja has, so stall is already sufficient in dealing with this threat.
I am Bart Furgers, I think greininja is very cool and novelty but it has to go it is too good especially with its new moves and its ridiculous speed. Although it is frail it has a fantastic move pool variety w/ stab(Protean). In my opinion it is slightly over centralizing and it should go for now, at least for now.
So Hi everyone! I've been following this threat for a while to the point where I even made an account and ladder to share my opinion. Before anything, this is MY opinion so if you disagree, it is your right. Now then, might be a long read so my bad XD My position is BAN greninja for a lot of reasons.
1) Counters. Technically speaking, greninja has "no counters". Yes, things like tentacruel, chansey, empoleon or porygon2 can switch on the appropriate move but they all get destroyed by a move in the frog's arsenal. Porygon2 might take low kick/gunk shot when it's physically defensive but gets 2HKO by hydro pump with some prio damage (which is not hard to do). All the pseudo counters he has gets OHKO/2HKO'ed by a certain move. You could run HPElectric and low kick to handle defensive gyara in the worst case! On top of it, all those counters....can't do anything back. Except maybe a Twave or some weak scald, the greninja isn't really scared. If you opponent switches out, it might means he doesn't carry the move for your check or simply because he has a better answer for it. Obviously, he can't carry all the moves in the world but despite it, you still need to scout for it (which I'll elaborate later). This brings to my next point.
2) 4mss. This is maybe the favorite argument for the anti-ban. Is it really a 4mss tho? For example, greninja doesn't carry dark pulse or HPGrass/grass knot so slowbro is a relatively safe counter. Think about it for a second. Why doesn't he have it? It is not because he had to sacrifice it for an other slot. It is really because he doesn't NEED it. One of greninja's teammate can get rid of it whenever it wants so why wasting a slot for slowbro? Greninja has a diverse movepool, yes but the moves picked by the player are here to support greninja's teammate. You struggle vs slowbro? Dark pulse. Tentacruel or keldeo maybe? Add extrasensory! You want to help your MGyarados VS ferrothorn? Slap in HPFire. Greninja isn't defined by a single moveset. The player craft it to what HE needs, making it not a real 4mss compare to something like lucario.
3) Checks. No need to explain but I want to specify something. "U all sux, imma revenge kill ur stupid frog with ma scarf landot! ur just whiny fgts!" Yea, yea we get it, you can revenge kill greninja. Don't you realize the flaw of this argument? You can REVENGE kill. It means something in the process has to die before you can do it. You could predict a Hydro Pump and switch your scarf latios indeed but, unless you are playing against someone inexperienced, the greninja won't stay in and let itself killed. It will just comeback later and wreak havoc. Same for a revenge kill. So, yes there's quite a bunch of checks but none of them is efficient enough to do the job because of greninja's amazing speed tier.
4) Predictability. This is the scout thing I spoke earlier. "haha u noob! use ur head and predict him duh! smogon players sux" In an ideal world with rainbows everywhere and where you are the new Jesus, this could be done. In this point, it mainly concerns balance/stall, offensive teams being limited in their switch-ins by nature. Let's assume you have ferrothorn, heatran and clefable. You want to scout the set so you will make those super switch-ins like a baws, be pro and then laugh at your opponent's greninja dies from LO recoil. There's 2 problems with the scenario.
a) How easy it is to take advantage from it. The first time might work but the 2nd, 3rd, etc. one, what will you do? "just double switch u scrub" I hope you do know prediction is a game played by 2 right? You could take advantage from it but your opponent too. This ends up being 50/50 but all in your opponent's favor. You predict but take damage (which is more than the 10% LO recoil) or get your ass handed to your face. The greninja player still comes out winner in both scenario.
b) Stop looking at the 1v1 scenario. Yes you could outplay the ONE greninja but what about the 5 others like swagodile said? You are using 2-3 mons to check one. And think long term guys (lol). The 20-40% you are taking might seem irrelevant for NOW but what about later? Maybe this damage on your rotom-w was enough to get it killed by a +2 brave bird from talonflame? Ninja serves as a little wallbreaker and an amazing support mon. He will wear down the other team by himself (with the moves he finds necessary as I mentioned earlier) in preparation for a sweep/late game cleaning. The set might be easy to figure out but at what cost?
5) Unpredictability. This is my last point, might not be the best title tho. He is unpredictable in a different way. Let's say I see you scouting for a HPgrass or your only check is grass weak for example. I won't reveal it until I find the perfect timing and let you do subpart plays. Either you will try as much as you can to force me to show you my last move, so taking useless damage on your team or you get too confident, leave your check and then see it vanish in the abyss. Afterwards, greninja will have a lot of fun or a sweep will just happen. On top of it, there's no cost at using greninja. He is so useful you lost nothing by using him.
tl;dr to sum it up, greninja needs to be ban because of a major lack of counters (that are viable in OU at least), a 4mss that doesn"t exist since greninja FITS the team and not the team fitting him, 50/50 supporting the greninja player by way too much and supports extremely well his teammates. So greninja BAN please.
1) Counters. Technically speaking, greninja has "no counters". Yes, things like tentacruel, chansey, empoleon or porygon2 can switch on the appropriate move but they all get destroyed by a move in the frog's arsenal. Porygon2 might take low kick/gunk shot when it's physically defensive but gets 2HKO by hydro pump with some prio damage (which is not hard to do). All the pseudo counters he has gets OHKO/2HKO'ed by a certain move. You could run HPElectric and low kick to handle defensive gyara in the worst case! On top of it, all those counters....can't do anything back. Except maybe a Twave or some weak scald, the greninja isn't really scared. If you opponent switches out, it might means he doesn't carry the move for your check or simply because he has a better answer for it. Obviously, he can't carry all the moves in the world but despite it, you still need to scout for it (which I'll elaborate later). This brings to my next point.
2) 4mss. This is maybe the favorite argument for the anti-ban. Is it really a 4mss tho? For example, greninja doesn't carry dark pulse or HPGrass/grass knot so slowbro is a relatively safe counter. Think about it for a second. Why doesn't he have it? It is not because he had to sacrifice it for an other slot. It is really because he doesn't NEED it. One of greninja's teammate can get rid of it whenever it wants so why wasting a slot for slowbro? Greninja has a diverse movepool, yes but the moves picked by the player are here to support greninja's teammate. You struggle vs slowbro? Dark pulse. Tentacruel or keldeo maybe? Add extrasensory! You want to help your MGyarados VS ferrothorn? Slap in HPFire. Greninja isn't defined by a single moveset. The player craft it to what HE needs, making it not a real 4mss compare to something like lucario.
3) Checks. No need to explain but I want to specify something. "U all sux, imma revenge kill ur stupid frog with ma scarf landot! ur just whiny fgts!" Yea, yea we get it, you can revenge kill greninja. Don't you realize the flaw of this argument? You can REVENGE kill. It means something in the process has to die before you can do it. You could predict a Hydro Pump and switch your scarf latios indeed but, unless you are playing against someone inexperienced, the greninja won't stay in and let itself killed. It will just comeback later and wreak havoc. Same for a revenge kill. So, yes there's quite a bunch of checks but none of them is efficient enough to do the job because of greninja's amazing speed tier.
4) Predictability. This is the scout thing I spoke earlier. "haha u noob! use ur head and predict him duh! smogon players sux" In an ideal world with rainbows everywhere and where you are the new Jesus, this could be done. In this point, it mainly concerns balance/stall, offensive teams being limited in their switch-ins by nature. Let's assume you have ferrothorn, heatran and clefable. You want to scout the set so you will make those super switch-ins like a baws, be pro and then laugh at your opponent's greninja dies from LO recoil. There's 2 problems with the scenario.
a) How easy it is to take advantage from it. The first time might work but the 2nd, 3rd, etc. one, what will you do? "just double switch u scrub" I hope you do know prediction is a game played by 2 right? You could take advantage from it but your opponent too. This ends up being 50/50 but all in your opponent's favor. You predict but take damage (which is more than the 10% LO recoil) or get your ass handed to your face. The greninja player still comes out winner in both scenario.
b) Stop looking at the 1v1 scenario. Yes you could outplay the ONE greninja but what about the 5 others like swagodile said? You are using 2-3 mons to check one. And think long term guys (lol). The 20-40% you are taking might seem irrelevant for NOW but what about later? Maybe this damage on your rotom-w was enough to get it killed by a +2 brave bird from talonflame? Ninja serves as a little wallbreaker and an amazing support mon. He will wear down the other team by himself (with the moves he finds necessary as I mentioned earlier) in preparation for a sweep/late game cleaning. The set might be easy to figure out but at what cost?
5) Unpredictability. This is my last point, might not be the best title tho. He is unpredictable in a different way. Let's say I see you scouting for a HPgrass or your only check is grass weak for example. I won't reveal it until I find the perfect timing and let you do subpart plays. Either you will try as much as you can to force me to show you my last move, so taking useless damage on your team or you get too confident, leave your check and then see it vanish in the abyss. Afterwards, greninja will have a lot of fun or a sweep will just happen. On top of it, there's no cost at using greninja. He is so useful you lost nothing by using him.
tl;dr to sum it up, greninja needs to be ban because of a major lack of counters (that are viable in OU at least), a 4mss that doesn"t exist since greninja FITS the team and not the team fitting him, 50/50 supporting the greninja player by way too much and supports extremely well his teammates. So greninja BAN please.
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Aww I'm feeling the love
Edit: Thank you for noting my contribution to the thread ad I'd like to make it clear that I don't by any means think Greninja is beyond broken, out of control, and completely unstoppable. I simply think that if you aren't using Greninja, you're at a disadvantage and one pokemon shouldn't control balance in the OU meta to the degree that Greninja does.
If the degree to which Greninja controls the OU meta doesn't affect you to the point where you think it doesn't warrant a ban, then I invite you to get the reqs, vote, and defend your argument.
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So, after playing and watching a fair amount of games on the suspect ladder and getting pretty close to finishing my reqs, I thought I leave my 2 cents here as well.
I'm also in favour of a ban but I feel like some people have overstated how Greninja fares against balance. Yes, it makes it much more difficult to play and puts a huge amount of pressure on these kind of teams (as do other mons such as Lando-I btw) but it doesn't single-handedly destroy them and it doesn't invalidate an entire playstyle. However, even if you manage to limit Greninja's switch-in opportunities and scout for its set by using protect for example, in many cases the player using balance is still forced to guess its set, make risky predictions or costly pivot switches while all the Greninja player has to loose are an other 10% of its health and usually that's the worst case. On the balanced team I used the most in the Gren meta, I managed to deal more or less decently with Greninja, usually by pivoting into Ferro and then into SpDef Talon, which is a switch-in most people don't anticipate and always forces it out but oviously that's not a reliable way of dealing with Gren whatsoever lol
What really justifys banning Greninja in my opinion is how incredibly centralizing it is. There are like 2 really reliable answers balance has for Greninja and there is almost no reason not to put it on an (hyper)offensive team because you just have something that threatens so many opposing mons in a single team slot. Greninja is probably also one of the reasons why Scarf Lando-T is everywhere since it can either revenge-kill Gren or grab momentum even though it would probably still be the best scarfer if ninja would be gone.
Plenty of people have already noted the increased variety of teams and styles during Greninja's absence on the suspect ladder and I definetely concur.
What I don't agree with is the sentiment that stall is more difficult to take down without Greninja because against a well-built/played stall team Greninja will eventually be worn down with hazards and/or LO recoil, there are far bigger threats to stall than Greninja. If anything makes stall more difficult to deal with it's M-Sableye, like Jukain said it's just extremely good and effective if played correctly with the combination of its pre and post-Mega abilities. Not only on stall obviously but it still covers a lot of threats to stall in one single slot by basically completely shutting down your opponent's hazards and Stallbreakers relying on Taunt (which were 2 of the most common ways of pressuring/dealing with stall) and being an amazing spinblocker. IMO it's definetely worth to take a closer look on this thing at some point in the future but I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll leave at that.
tl;dr Greninja's qualitys easily make up for its flaws and its presence in the metagame is not healthy and overcentralising. No matter how I look at it, banning ninja is what should be best for the OU tier and that's what our decision should be based on, not on the fate of a single mon like many anti-ban people seem to do it.
I'm also in favour of a ban but I feel like some people have overstated how Greninja fares against balance. Yes, it makes it much more difficult to play and puts a huge amount of pressure on these kind of teams (as do other mons such as Lando-I btw) but it doesn't single-handedly destroy them and it doesn't invalidate an entire playstyle. However, even if you manage to limit Greninja's switch-in opportunities and scout for its set by using protect for example, in many cases the player using balance is still forced to guess its set, make risky predictions or costly pivot switches while all the Greninja player has to loose are an other 10% of its health and usually that's the worst case. On the balanced team I used the most in the Gren meta, I managed to deal more or less decently with Greninja, usually by pivoting into Ferro and then into SpDef Talon, which is a switch-in most people don't anticipate and always forces it out but oviously that's not a reliable way of dealing with Gren whatsoever lol
What really justifys banning Greninja in my opinion is how incredibly centralizing it is. There are like 2 really reliable answers balance has for Greninja and there is almost no reason not to put it on an (hyper)offensive team because you just have something that threatens so many opposing mons in a single team slot. Greninja is probably also one of the reasons why Scarf Lando-T is everywhere since it can either revenge-kill Gren or grab momentum even though it would probably still be the best scarfer if ninja would be gone.
Plenty of people have already noted the increased variety of teams and styles during Greninja's absence on the suspect ladder and I definetely concur.
What I don't agree with is the sentiment that stall is more difficult to take down without Greninja because against a well-built/played stall team Greninja will eventually be worn down with hazards and/or LO recoil, there are far bigger threats to stall than Greninja. If anything makes stall more difficult to deal with it's M-Sableye, like Jukain said it's just extremely good and effective if played correctly with the combination of its pre and post-Mega abilities. Not only on stall obviously but it still covers a lot of threats to stall in one single slot by basically completely shutting down your opponent's hazards and Stallbreakers relying on Taunt (which were 2 of the most common ways of pressuring/dealing with stall) and being an amazing spinblocker. IMO it's definetely worth to take a closer look on this thing at some point in the future but I don't want to derail this thread any further, so I'll leave at that.
tl;dr Greninja's qualitys easily make up for its flaws and its presence in the metagame is not healthy and overcentralising. No matter how I look at it, banning ninja is what should be best for the OU tier and that's what our decision should be based on, not on the fate of a single mon like many anti-ban people seem to do it.
Remember that Greninja has 5 other teammates along side it, 5 teammates that can clean up the damage that Greninja can inflict. Greninja's "Scarf/Priority" checks are painfully obvious (thanks to Greninja's 123 Speed), to be quite honest, and the Greninja user can simply get a free shot on the check (OHKO/2HKO grounds), switch out to its teammate that resists or checks/counters said check, and have the cycle repeat again.
Greninja only really needs one or two chances to do enough damage to the party to pretty much ensure your demise...and it certainly isn't the three-plus times that some anti-ban people say. Admittedly, weakening the opponent's team with Greninja is downright easy to the core. Combine that with the fact that it adapts to the tier thanks to its movepool, it makes it undeniably unhealthy for the OU tier.
Admittedly, I'm sure better users can display these thoughts in a more structured manner, but I needed to get that out of my chest.
Ok, I got my reqs and experienced first-hand a Greninja-less OU. I am still not sure what I will vote, but I must say that OU without Gren is not the end of the world. If anything, it is arguably better as teams are diverse and many archetypes aren't as pressured as they would be with Gren present. Don't get me wrong, I love Greninja <3 but I must express the truth.
Greninja is a low-risk high-reward pokemon that makes its team instanly better just by being on it. The pressure it applies to many teams is not comparable to, say, Landorus-t or KB or M-Garde pressure. This pressure can be deemed unhealthy to the meta. Not only that, but its pressure coupled with its coverage options and sheer power can also be deemed unhealthy. Its frailty is overshadowed by the many positives that it has, and I must say, it will be hard voting.
tl;dr: If Greninja goes, it will be justified, imho, and for the current state of OU, Gren is admittedly and arguably unhealthy. ;_; Do I want it to go? No. But should it? Prolly yes.
Greninja is a low-risk high-reward pokemon that makes its team instanly better just by being on it. The pressure it applies to many teams is not comparable to, say, Landorus-t or KB or M-Garde pressure. This pressure can be deemed unhealthy to the meta. Not only that, but its pressure coupled with its coverage options and sheer power can also be deemed unhealthy. Its frailty is overshadowed by the many positives that it has, and I must say, it will be hard voting.
tl;dr: If Greninja goes, it will be justified, imho, and for the current state of OU, Gren is admittedly and arguably unhealthy. ;_; Do I want it to go? No. But should it? Prolly yes.
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Regardless how difficult it may be for the Greninja user to choose what move to select it is undeniably at the overwhelming advantage for being able to hit hard regardless what move it chooses. Prediction indeed goes ways and being able to ohko/2hko every OU pokemon beside the ones who only belong on stall with such great speed makes it almost impossible to deal with unless you only play hyper-offense or stall. That is the very high low risk/high reward output people are talking about and it is a quality only Greninja currently possesses in OU and letting it stay would send us back to the early XY where the extreme play-style dominate.
I think Greninja has only gotten better with each step metagame took towards stabilizing because it destroys so many balanced cores that I almost wonder why we didn't see it brokeness before. Of course I am aware it was in ORAS when it gained Gunk Shot and to lesser extent Low Kick when it became able to destroy it formers counters and checks and therefore destroying the illusion that Greninja isn't a broken pokemon but it has become clear that Greninja is simply too good for OU to handle. A Pokemon doesn't need to be like dominating like Mega Salamence to be banworthy but severely limiting teambuilding and almost single-handedly invalidating playstyles that promote creativity more than any other show how negative it's presence is.
Basically every sweeper 2HKO or OHKO everything besides the STALL...
So I gave my initial thoughts earlier in the thread and I was for a greninja ban but only barely like 55-60%, now I am much more positive that it needs to go. While it may not be broken, it is certainly unhealthy for the metagame. The reason I was only slightly for a ban earlier was because I saw that teams like HO and stall could handle greninja just fine, but since then I have been building alot of teams to get my reqs on the ladder and I have had a much easier time building, and honestly it is just more fun. The whole point of having a ladder without greninja is to pick which meta we like better, and quite simply I like this one better, I dont really care why or how we justify but when the time comes I will confidently vote to ban greninja.
Aldaron said:
Fair enough point, but I didnt say I like this metagame better for no reason, I said I think this metagame is more healthy and then said that I like it better. So I like healthy metagames, and greninja gives me an unhealthy meagame and that seems to be a good enough reason to ban.
Also I dont know if this is the place to talk about it, but tornadus therian has gotten much better in the absence of greninja, since greninja was the ultimate troll and outsped by 1 point. It is a very fast and powerful special attacker, as well as mixed, and I think now that greninja is out of the picture it has a better place in the OU metagame. I was using my boy daftmau5's team with it, and was absolutely destroying the ladder with it. I only mention it because I havent seen too much discussion on him, but I think he is quite largely impact by greninja leaving, and is now one of the fastest non mega/unscarfed mon in the tier, which is pretty nice.
Also I dont know if this is the place to talk about it, but tornadus therian has gotten much better in the absence of greninja, since greninja was the ultimate troll and outsped by 1 point. It is a very fast and powerful special attacker, as well as mixed, and I think now that greninja is out of the picture it has a better place in the OU metagame. I was using my boy daftmau5's team with it, and was absolutely destroying the ladder with it. I only mention it because I havent seen too much discussion on him, but I think he is quite largely impact by greninja leaving, and is now one of the fastest non mega/unscarfed mon in the tier, which is pretty nice.
I'd think you'd be best going to the ORAS Metagame thread with this; since that's been talking about greninja-less metagame the past few days.
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Yes, you are doing just that because unless you're running full stall you can't guarantee that your team is completely safe from Greninja thanks to it's pace, power, movepool and ability. When your opponent sends Greninja out, you have to face the possibility that it could be carrying that one move that will make your team fall apart like a house of cards. It's not even hard for the Greninja user to figure out what to do in uncertain situations; he could just switch it out and save it for later or he could predict a switch in and 2HKO/OHKO it. It doesn't need more than a few opportunities to come in and wreak havoc. And you can't always force it out because you can't always have a scarfer or priority user out against it.
I still don't see any good reason to ban Greninja.
I have understand that there is no 4MSS issue since he is running the moves the team wants him to have blablabla
But isn't it the case for a lot of other mons? I mean, it's the point of teambuilding, choosing a mon with the set that helps the team the most.
So it comes down to "Greninja can run a lot of different team and fit in every team due to his wonderful movepool (and others qualities) !"
Is that a reason to ban Greninja? I think it's just what make Greninja a wonderful and useful mon in the current metagame.
I have understand that there is no 4MSS issue since he is running the moves the team wants him to have blablabla
But isn't it the case for a lot of other mons? I mean, it's the point of teambuilding, choosing a mon with the set that helps the team the most.
So it comes down to "Greninja can run a lot of different team and fit in every team due to his wonderful movepool (and others qualities) !"
Is that a reason to ban Greninja? I think it's just what make Greninja a wonderful and useful mon in the current metagame.
So, yeah, this entire parallel to Charizard X is pointless and needs to be dropped because, as it clearly states in the mandatory reading, the existence of checks and counters is not an immediate indicator that something isn't broken. Also, please, read the thread. Countless times it has been pointed out that Greninja's issue isn't a lack of checks and counters, it's a lack of checks and counters that can be reliably used on balance teams. You are just rehashing old arguments that have been addressed repeatedly and derailing the thread.Suspect Thread Etiquette (Read before Posting in Suspect Threads) said:
The concern is less with how easy it is to use Greninja on a team(heck see Lando-T) but more with teams, particularly Balanced teams, being able to safely deal with variants of Greninja. Greninja is blessed (or cursed) with a movepool that, is way too large for small defensive cores to safely deal with, and its speed puts it out of range of everything but Priority users and Scarfers, both of which have a tendency to be easily worn down and removed (that and Greninja can switch). While this isn't a huge issue for stall as far as I know, it makes it extremely difficult for balanced teams to deal with due to the small defensive cores and the lack of room for priority users and Scarfers.
I feel the need to mention that Pokemon without counters aren't immediately broken or unhealthy and a good example would be Mega Charizard X this Generation and Hydreigon last Generation and a Pokemon can have a reliable counter (not nessecary an almost unviable pokemon like Porygon2) and yet still be unhealthy like Genesect.
Unhealthyness (not sure if thats a word) or brokeness has a lot more characteristics to take into account.
Let me take Azumarill as an example. Currently A+ Ranking and a pretty big threat currently. It has counters but yet, even if you don't have any, it is easier to wear down with the options we have currently in OU since its checks are really reliable and the meta is really focused about spreading burn and fast offense.
So going back to Greninja, the reason I think it is unhealthy is simply because it can adapt to the meta like no other pokemon.
Since the meta is so focused on that pokemon, it needs to adapt to it forcing it to later adapt again creating a never ending circle where people have to keep preparing for Greninja.
Great speed tier being able to outspeed most Megas, STAB to almost any type in the game, great offensive and supportive moves to abuse its ability.
And that is pretty much limiting team building...maybe not so much for HO who can just slap Greninja to fill an empty team slot and let it provide the moves your teams does not cover.
Greninja does not make Balance or Stall teams unviable but it creates a lot of momentum and finds free switch ins compare to HO. Balance and Stall teams don't put perma pressure like HO does but with Greninja, they are usually have to put more offensive pressure than usual otherwise Greninja can possibly come in. The problem with that is, that while Greninja isn't doing anything, your other team mates can take advantage of it which adds into Greninja's supportive characteristics indirectly.
To clearify, you don't need offensive pressure to kill Greninja but the reason I mentioned it was, if you have a pokemon in that is a bad match up for Greninja, you don't want it to come in for free and that will usually happen a lot (unless you build around your team with 6 Scarfers or something but then you will have a lot of trouble with the other 5 team mates).
The moment Greninja is in, you are thinking about 2 things: 1. Let your pokemon die or 2. Take a risk by switching into a check.
And because of its great speed and its Portean + Life Orb-Boosted coverage moves, you will have to think really carefully about your decision.
Unhealthyness (not sure if thats a word) or brokeness has a lot more characteristics to take into account.
Let me take Azumarill as an example. Currently A+ Ranking and a pretty big threat currently. It has counters but yet, even if you don't have any, it is easier to wear down with the options we have currently in OU since its checks are really reliable and the meta is really focused about spreading burn and fast offense.
So going back to Greninja, the reason I think it is unhealthy is simply because it can adapt to the meta like no other pokemon.
Since the meta is so focused on that pokemon, it needs to adapt to it forcing it to later adapt again creating a never ending circle where people have to keep preparing for Greninja.
Great speed tier being able to outspeed most Megas, STAB to almost any type in the game, great offensive and supportive moves to abuse its ability.
And that is pretty much limiting team building...maybe not so much for HO who can just slap Greninja to fill an empty team slot and let it provide the moves your teams does not cover.
Greninja does not make Balance or Stall teams unviable but it creates a lot of momentum and finds free switch ins compare to HO. Balance and Stall teams don't put perma pressure like HO does but with Greninja, they are usually have to put more offensive pressure than usual otherwise Greninja can possibly come in. The problem with that is, that while Greninja isn't doing anything, your other team mates can take advantage of it which adds into Greninja's supportive characteristics indirectly.
To clearify, you don't need offensive pressure to kill Greninja but the reason I mentioned it was, if you have a pokemon in that is a bad match up for Greninja, you don't want it to come in for free and that will usually happen a lot (unless you build around your team with 6 Scarfers or something but then you will have a lot of trouble with the other 5 team mates).
The moment Greninja is in, you are thinking about 2 things: 1. Let your pokemon die or 2. Take a risk by switching into a check.
And because of its great speed and its Portean + Life Orb-Boosted coverage moves, you will have to think really carefully about your decision.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Greninja is not suspected because it has no counters, because following that logic there would be many more suspects in BW and XY, but because it is able to dismantle both offensive cores (lower than 377 speed) and defensive cores too easily and give another teammate such useful support that a sweep is much easier. Also, the counters (depending on the set) like Empoleon, Porygon2, Tentacruel and Chansey either don't fit on certain teams [chansey and tentacrue] or are pretty garbage [porygon2 and empoleon] outside of checking Greninja. Balanced teams just don't have an answer to Greninja without using things like Empoleon which are pretty bad outside of walling Greninja or using pokemon that actually don't fit on their team like Chansey.
Also, a pokemon that is very good in a current metagame, or maybe broken, is not necessarily unhealthy for the metagame. I was not around in the ADV metagame but I have seen posts about Dugtrio and how it was very good (broken?) in the metagame. However, Dugtrio made ADV a more healthy metagame and banning the broken (?) pokemon would only make the metagame more unhealthy. This is not the case for Greninja, because the metagame will grow with him gone, but in possible suspects in the future this will probably be the case (like how Mega Sableye stops Mega Gallade and make stall live again and you can argue that Mega Sableye is broken, banning him wouldn't make the metagame more healthy) <--- just an example btw
Also, a pokemon that is very good in a current metagame, or maybe broken, is not necessarily unhealthy for the metagame. I was not around in the ADV metagame but I have seen posts about Dugtrio and how it was very good (broken?) in the metagame. However, Dugtrio made ADV a more healthy metagame and banning the broken (?) pokemon would only make the metagame more unhealthy. This is not the case for Greninja, because the metagame will grow with him gone, but in possible suspects in the future this will probably be the case (like how Mega Sableye stops Mega Gallade and make stall live again and you can argue that Mega Sableye is broken, banning him wouldn't make the metagame more healthy) <--- just an example btw
Can someone on the anti ban argument please explain what about Greninja actually makes it healthy for the meta? I can sum up in one sentence what makes Gren unhealthy (it makes balance unviable without the use of do nothing checks) and honestly I haven't seen anyone attack that argument. I'd feel a lot less sure about wanting a Gren ban if someone would either give a list of viable checks and counters that balance can use (that actually do something, so no P2), or explain what Gren brings to the meta that justifies it stomping a plsystyle that's been viable for 3 gens straight.
[quote="mertyville, post: 5951065, member: 189064]
The moment Greninja is in, you are thinking about 2 things: 1. Let your pokemon die or 2. Take a risk by switching into a check.
And because of its great speed and its Portean + Life Orb-Boosted coverage moves, you will have to think really carefully about your decision.[/quote]
While the rest of the argument is good I feel the need to adress this pro ban argument which I have seen a LOT in this thread. This particular argument is true for ANY pokemon with a decent movepool. This is a terrible reason to want to ban greninja.
The moment Greninja is in, you are thinking about 2 things: 1. Let your pokemon die or 2. Take a risk by switching into a check.
And because of its great speed and its Portean + Life Orb-Boosted coverage moves, you will have to think really carefully about your decision.[/quote]
While the rest of the argument is good I feel the need to adress this pro ban argument which I have seen a LOT in this thread. This particular argument is true for ANY pokemon with a decent movepool. This is a terrible reason to want to ban greninja.
Meh I'm new to the community and tried to figure out where to post first, so why not on my favorite Kalos Pokemon? I'll agree with the statements previous people have made in terms of a Greninja that can be true on many occassions. But then again, let's throw in my 2 cents as well.
1. Not ALL teams are pure offense. Most teams will have at least one out to this Pokemon, this is still a relatively frail Pokemon.
2. The Life Orb recoil will take a toll on that Greninja after a few turns, leaving it open to most priority moves.
3. I'm quoting the post I was told to read before posting: "just because a Pokemon doesn't have many direct checks and counters doesn't make it broken". People don't seem to realize that a simple T.Wave pretty much shuts down Greninja exponentially, taking it's biggest asset - Spd - away from it. Most good T.Waver's can survive a hit from Greninja and deal a T.Wave in return.
4. It has NO priority whatsoever. Look at all the Non-Legends in the Uber tier: Kanghaskhan-M, Lucario-M, Mawile-M, Blaziken-M and regular, Gengar-M, and Aegislash. Only Gengar and Blaziken have no priority, although Blaziken's Spd Boost makes priority practically irrelevant, and Gengar-M has enough Spd to outspeed a lot of the OU. Yes, you can say these Pokemon have other factors such as their stats or abilities, but Greninja doesn't have a priority move like these Pokemon. One point in the Mawile argument was practically based off Sucker Punch, and everyone remembers Kanghaskhan with the annoying Fake-Out and Sucker Punch, whilst most Aegislash builds call for Shadow Sneak.
5. Gunk Shot and Low Kick have been thrown around a lot in this thread, but I'm just gonna argue the SOMEWHAT shaky accuracy of 80 on Gunk Shot and the SOMEWHAT iffy power of Low Kick depending on the opponent in question.
Based on these points, I would say to keep Greninja in OU, but then again these five points are more to satisfy the "No Ban" group. I wish for the Unconditonal BAN of Greninja to Ubers because everyone's play style is different and Greninja just seems to irk most people because of their own playstyle. I call for the ban hammer.
1. Not ALL teams are pure offense. Most teams will have at least one out to this Pokemon, this is still a relatively frail Pokemon.
2. The Life Orb recoil will take a toll on that Greninja after a few turns, leaving it open to most priority moves.
3. I'm quoting the post I was told to read before posting: "just because a Pokemon doesn't have many direct checks and counters doesn't make it broken". People don't seem to realize that a simple T.Wave pretty much shuts down Greninja exponentially, taking it's biggest asset - Spd - away from it. Most good T.Waver's can survive a hit from Greninja and deal a T.Wave in return.
4. It has NO priority whatsoever. Look at all the Non-Legends in the Uber tier: Kanghaskhan-M, Lucario-M, Mawile-M, Blaziken-M and regular, Gengar-M, and Aegislash. Only Gengar and Blaziken have no priority, although Blaziken's Spd Boost makes priority practically irrelevant, and Gengar-M has enough Spd to outspeed a lot of the OU. Yes, you can say these Pokemon have other factors such as their stats or abilities, but Greninja doesn't have a priority move like these Pokemon. One point in the Mawile argument was practically based off Sucker Punch, and everyone remembers Kanghaskhan with the annoying Fake-Out and Sucker Punch, whilst most Aegislash builds call for Shadow Sneak.
5. Gunk Shot and Low Kick have been thrown around a lot in this thread, but I'm just gonna argue the SOMEWHAT shaky accuracy of 80 on Gunk Shot and the SOMEWHAT iffy power of Low Kick depending on the opponent in question.
Based on these points, I would say to keep Greninja in OU, but then again these five points are more to satisfy the "No Ban" group. I wish for the Unconditonal BAN of Greninja to Ubers because everyone's play style is different and Greninja just seems to irk most people because of their own playstyle. I call for the ban hammer.
There are a lot of admitably cringe-worthy arguments for why Greninja's should not be banned, and it seems many more well-thought out answers have gone towards the pro-ban side, which saddens me as I am anti-ban. To quote Star Wars Episode III, "There are heroes on both sides, evil is everywhere."
My main beef with banning Greninja's is because it's not like Mega Mence or Aegi where they have switch in opportunities everywhere due to their bulk. Greninja's is frail as hell, and if you switch him in freely to anything but a stall mon, he most likely will die, and the stall mon you'd switch into can most likely outlast and defeat Greninja. Greninja requires volt turn support to effectively switch in, which can be played around but ultimately must put a lot of stress on the opponent of the Greninja user and is an overall undesirable scenario all around. I am still anti ban but I'm being swayed more and more by the well thought out answers and not just the single line of text rebuking someone else or mocking those who who would defend our froggy friend.
My main beef with banning Greninja's is because it's not like Mega Mence or Aegi where they have switch in opportunities everywhere due to their bulk. Greninja's is frail as hell, and if you switch him in freely to anything but a stall mon, he most likely will die, and the stall mon you'd switch into can most likely outlast and defeat Greninja. Greninja requires volt turn support to effectively switch in, which can be played around but ultimately must put a lot of stress on the opponent of the Greninja user and is an overall undesirable scenario all around. I am still anti ban but I'm being swayed more and more by the well thought out answers and not just the single line of text rebuking someone else or mocking those who who would defend our froggy friend.
I guess I should be afraid to post here, but I'd sort of like to reveal something I've found:
One thing I've noticed in teambuilding is this:
If you try to Place Greninja on your team first, your team doesn't get much out of Greninja and you instead spend the rest of your team slots on Pokemon to help make up for what Greninja can't cover.
If you try to Place Greninja on your team last, you give Greninja moves that your team can't reach. Greninja then comes in and allows your team to win many battle that would have been beyond reach before.
I'm leaning slightly towards a Ban.
One thing I've noticed in teambuilding is this:
If you try to Place Greninja on your team first, your team doesn't get much out of Greninja and you instead spend the rest of your team slots on Pokemon to help make up for what Greninja can't cover.
If you try to Place Greninja on your team last, you give Greninja moves that your team can't reach. Greninja then comes in and allows your team to win many battle that would have been beyond reach before.
I'm leaning slightly towards a Ban.
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Not really. You can counter something but in greninja's case, he has the movepool to check whatever he wants. You have to consider the amount of pressure he puts on a team by himself. Yes, if we pick something like CharX or MegaGross, they do apply pressure too. Unlike greninja tho, if your team is decently build, you could feel safe facing them. They may have a move to handle some of their counters but they lose something important in return aka a coverage or a support move they really need. Greninja on the other, despite having 2 "counters", you still fear him in case he has the moves for you while he doesn't sacrifice coverage in return. All he needs is ice beam and gunk shot as many stated before me. And even if he doesn't cary the move, he can 2HKO with something else. I won't deny, the way I put it is a bit simplistic but I didn't feel like writing a novel XD
EDIT: Here's the calc's for skup:
Gyarados
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 156-185 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Venusaur
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 135-164 (37 - 45%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So some prior damage on venu is fine. If you run a physically defensive gyara, ice beam does the job instead.
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Now take out all the fairies because Gren should always run Gunk unless your win con is an offensive steel that sets up on fairies. Chansey because its trash on balance, Ferro because it can't take two low kicks, and conk because it can't take two Gunk Shots. Everything left is what can actually check it on balance. Someone should calc Gyarados after rocks and M Venu after rocks BTW, I'm on mobile so I can't.
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