np: ORAS UU Stage 6 - Slow Hands

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Wanka

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There actually isn't an ounce of hostility in that post, I was just genuinely confused with your reasoning as to why gardes speed matters so much. You can call it generalizing but there are a lot of posts in the thread that have had simliar ideas to mine so I'm more so piggy banking on other peoples thoughts rather than generalizing an entire community. All ur doing in saying that is twisting words that don't have as in depth of meaning as you think they do which is part misunderstanding and part ignorance. Also, the entire dicussion as of late has been about discussing sylv and conk's potential impact on the tier so don't give me the "oh its not even in the tier yet lol" bullshit, ur just doing that to be a blatant assclown to me and its kinda fucked up and you look dumb for doing it.

Instead of tying to play victim all the time and calling hostility when I'm just trying to give my actual thoughts, give me a solid counter argument that will at least prove me wrong. It's ok to be sensitive sometimes but I'm simply just getting my thoughts out there, you'll be fine, I promise.
 
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Also, Christo, it'll be the community that'll help illustrate the different possibilities of Sylveon.
My point was that what the community uses doesn't pertain to me as I am allowed to use what I prefer.
don't give me the "oh its not even in the tier yet lol" bullshit, ur just doing that to be a blatant assclown to me and its kinda fucked up and you look dumb for doing it.

Instead of tying to play victim all the time and calling hostility when I'm just trying to give my actual thoughts, give me a solid counter argument that will at least prove me wrong. It's ok to be sensitive sometimes but I'm simply just getting my thoughts out there, you'll be fine, I promise.
It not being in the tier is relevant. Its all fine to post opinions and speculation about possible new drops but you are blatantly saying your opinion as if it is 100% certain when there is nothing to back it up. And there is nothing I can do to prove you wrong dude since we won't know how the meta will react. I genuinely do not care what your thoughts on the matter are as it is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I simply want to state my seemingly unpopular opinion in the thread to maybe let some users look at both sides.

Edit in response to the post under mine:
Nobody is ever going to complain about sylv not having STAB psychock and nobody will ever use that as a reason to run garde instead, it just wont happen whether you like it or not
You literally are saying this as if it is 100% certain tho??
 
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Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
I just told you not to twist my words into thinking everything I said meant my opinions are 100% certain, lets have some reading skills. Comes off a bit demanding yeah but I specified and ur still calling me out for reasons I don't know.

Also, make sure you quote the parts of my posts that back those thoughts up that u quoted instead of trying to break up my statements to make me look bad. Thanks.
 
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Honestly you're both acting like asshats, and neither one of you are willing to let the damn thing end.

As for Sylveon(more speculation ahoy), I really don't think it will really affect the use of Garde. I see Sylv being used much more on bulky teams, while Garde is run on teams that would rather have the speed and/or utility from Trick/Willo/Etc. Who cares if it doesn't have STAB on it's Psyshock anyways, still lets it scare the hell out of poison types.

Main competitor would be Florges, where it outmatches offensively, is a bit similar defensively, and is outdone with CM - if only because Wish/Protect/CM isn't always the greatest option(RIP MAudino).

Seriously, the last two pages have been about nothing but unconfirmed drops, rather than any current metagame discussion. Thought this was a metagame thread, not a theorymonning discussion.

I'm also going to laugh if neither of them fall again.
 
I think sylveon will be a pretty damn great wallbreaker. I can see baton pass being pretty viable on specs set cause of how much pressure it can exert onto the opponent. My thinking is specs with Hyper Voice/shadow ball/hp ground/baton pass. Psyshock is swappable, but I shadow ball I think will be more useful to hit doublade and bronzong (who I think may see some bump in usage of sylveon really becomes a threat). Obviously hp fire is an option but I don't see as much use as in ou where scizor and ferrothorn are so common, while the only fortress is the only 4x weak to fire mon I can think of, and that take a chunk from Hypervoice anyhow. My set does struggle with poison types (and blissy to some extent), but my logic is baton pass can be used on the obvious switch to roserade or tentacruel and bp out into say entei or manoswine respectively. bronzong I can see some usage on stall teams now as it is quite bulky, and only really fears hp fire and shadow ball, can set rocks. AV metagross I can see as the more offensive check replacement for bulkier offense/ balance. Overall I'm pretty pumped to test out sylveon and I see it landing around A/A- in the viability.

Also another thing to drop sableye is always nice :].
 
I'm still wary of the thing. With such massive slow threats like Crawdaunt around, likely Conk, and very likely Sylveon, that already forms a decent offensive grouping that will be absolutely monstrous in Trick Room, which I expect to see usage of that rise and will personally use it because nothing stops these things bar priority, which makes the biggest threat to this grouping something like Lucario or Entei but Conk feeds off the burn, Daunt outspeeds in TR if it kos something, and Sylveon just blows back the former and doesn't like the latter.

But yeah, those three + tr = shit's gonna go down.
 

esche

woohoo
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
HP Ground isn't worth it all. Nothing relavent is 4x weak to Ground while HP Fire hits Forretress and Escavalier (!) and still damages all the other steel types bar Empoleon. Poison types get bopped by Psyshock anyway and it's not worth hitting Fire types super effectively when they already take ~ 50% from Hyper Voice. Most of the time, you will be clicking Hyper Voice or BP anyway so coverage is not that important at all.
 
I'm still wary of the thing. With such massive slow threats like Crawdaunt around, likely Conk, and very likely Sylveon, that already forms a decent offensive grouping that will be absolutely monstrous in Trick Room, which I expect to see usage of that rise and will personally use it because nothing stops these things bar priority, which makes the biggest threat to this grouping something like Lucario or Entei but Conk feeds off the burn, Daunt outspeeds in TR if it kos something, and Sylveon just blows back the former and doesn't like the latter.

But yeah, those three + tr = shit's gonna go down.
Eh, Trick Room usually gets overhyped by the slow threats, and it still doesn't deal with the issue of stall who will simply scout all your moves and choiced attackers while generally packing the one pokemon who doesn't give a damn about sylveon (blissey and its reliable recovery), and just burn out the TR turns against the other two with protect and switching.

I mean, an anti-lead with TR will carry you against most HO teams since they are they kind that can almost never afford TR going up, but other builds will still have serious road-blocks that conkeldurr is not getting through (the lack of a high powered spammable fight STAB is a problem) and even present sylveon issues or force you to lock into a weak coverage move which you can't really afford due to the turn limit on TR.

Could still be worth giving TR a go, but if you're expecting to blow through things not named HO, I hope you have something else up your sleeve than those three.
 
Talking about the current meta a bit, Escavalier has been great since Zam drop. I've been using it since day one and I found it to be a good glue mon, extremely easy to throw in balance and bulky offense builds and call it a day. With amazing bulk and Bug/Steel being a great defensive and offensive typing, Escavalier is able to counter any Fairy and Psychic type in this tier. Florges, Cresselia, Whimsicott, Reuniclus, Alakazam, all mons that gives a hard time for balance/bulky offense, give free switches and free turns to spam Escavalier' STABs or Knock Off. Being able to check and Pursuit stuff like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill and Mega Sceptile are also great, taking chip damage from those, as a support for mons that often have problems with them, like Alakazam, Virizion, Hydreigon, among others.

I've been using a tank set most of the time, as I don't find much appeal over SD sets. I think Escavalier have a good share of checks and counters which doesn't allow it to be a reliable wincon. You end up having to give much more support for Esca to work out, over the support Escavalier could give for your team.

jan/2016 (before zam drops)
109 | Escavalier | 0.43148%

fev/16 (hype)
71 | Escavalier | 2.73938%

mar/16
82 | Escavalier | 1.75301%


Speculating a bit, with Sylveon dropping, Escavalier popularity is most likely going to rise, since it tanks Specs Hyper Voice like a cavalier. Of course Specs Sylveon has HP Fire as coverage especific for this, or can even BP on the switch for something else, but that also means we are not spamming Hyper Voice anymore.

If you like the Milotic hype, you should also try Escavalier, especially if Zapdos leaves.
 
Hopefully soon. Not to keep the topic on them going for too long, but I'm interested in testing out Sylveon on some bulky offensive teams. Conkeldurr I'm less interested in since we already have Heracross, but the GutsAssault set may be an interesting set to use.

To get back on topic, I certainly agree with Malin that Escavalier will be a good moon in this meta. There's a lot of mons running around currently that Escavalier can threaten out and even switch into. The only real problems it has are mainly Zapdos being relevant and some Fire-types, but they can be managed if you prepare right for them.
 
I thought we were on track to lose Zapdos. Unless its usage magically dropped Escavalier will continue to get better and better. It will need Wish support to properly check Sylvion, but that's hardly an issue given it's best on balance and BO already.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave / Calm Mind

This isn't exactly a new set by any chance, but it's a pretty nice EV spread for Slowking imo. What it does is avoid the 2HKO from Life Orb Alakazam's Shadow Ball (Not after SR, though) and has enough Defense investment to still check the things Slowking usually checks, like Infernape, Entei, and Cobalion, while being a better switchin to special attackers like LO Salamence and also manages to avoid an OHKO from +2 Infernape's Grass Knot, something the usual max Defense max HP spread cannot avoid 50% of the time. It does make for a worse switchin to some physical attackers, mainly Mega Aerodactyl, as it takes about 45% from a Stone Edge, forcing it to heal up or take another one and try to cripple it. It still avoids the 2HKO from Entei's Fire STABs and ESpeed even after burn damage, which is pretty remarkable. Personally I prefer Calm Mind in the last slot for Slowking to act as a bulky win condition and pressure stuff throughout the match due to Regenerator, but TWave's a good option to cripple stuff like Hydreigon and Mega Aerodactyl. Overall, I think this EV spread is a really cool one for Slowking (idk if it's the best for him rn though), as it helps him check Alakazam a lot better and also still checks what it usually checks quite well, except for some like Mega Aerodactyl.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 146-174 (37.1 - 44.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 294-346 (74.8 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 294-346 (74.8 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 126-148 (32 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 151-178 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 135-159 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 168-198 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 137-162 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252 Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 166-196 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 172-204 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 78-92 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 140 Def Slowking: 156-183 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 152-179 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dragon Fang Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Slowking: 171-202 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
I thought we were on track to lose Zapdos. Unless its usage magically dropped Escavalier will continue to get better and better. It will need Wish support to properly check Sylvion, but that's hardly an issue given it's best on balance and BO already.
We were? That's news to me. If that is the case, then thank goodness.
 

Hogg

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UU & Tour Head
I mean, that's only one month of usage - in February, Zapdos was at ~2.5% usage. It's right on the line, so I don't think anyone can say for certain until April's stats are released (which should be soon).
 

EonX

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Yeah, Zapdos leaving would definitely shake things up and I'm totally agreeing with Escavalier being a very underrated Pokemon right now. Beating Alakazam and most Fairies is huge, but perhaps the biggest thing it does for balance / bulky offense teams it to make sure they have a very safe switch-in for any Cresselia set. Unless Cresselia is being a lure and running HP Fire, Escavalier can come in and do severe damage with STAB Megahorn or catch it with Knock Off or Pursuit. Every other Pokemon that wants to come in to blast Cresselia risks taking heavy damage from Moonblast or Psyshock.

Circling back to the whole Sylveon vs Gardevoir discussion for a moment. While it is true that the loss in Speed can be pretty unfortunate, there is one HUGE advantage Sylveon has over Gardevoir that I don't think can be stated enough: the ability to easily switch into any Hydreigon not using Iron Tail. This is something Gardevoir simply cannot do thanks to that secondary Psychic typing. Sure, you lose STAB on Psyshock, but that is easily worth being able to switch into one of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier and be able to immediately shift momentum with Sylveon's offensive pressure. While Sylveon certainly has issues with its Speed tier and its physical bulk is a little underwhelming when not focused on, it can easily shift momentum vs Hydreigon and has Baton Pass to maintain momentum when the opponent has a solid answer to Sylveon (usually a fat Steel-type) That's enough to set it apart in a good way imo should it drop.
 
The whole argument between Sylveon and Gardevoir is pretty stupid tbh, since Sylveon plays its set way differently from Gardevoir. You play Sylveon to use its better bulk to your advantage, so you can switch into more stuff that Gardevoir couldn't switch into, whereas Gardevoir is played for its more offensive approach and to take advantage of its better move pool. Obviously one is better than the other in some cases, but that all depends on what kind of team you run.

I apologize if I'm still continuing this, but I just needed to say it so we can be done with it (for now anyway) and move on to more important matters.
 


^ Accurate depiction of the UU community if Zapdos leaves.
Kinda glad zap might be leaving. It was good, and I'll admit it was on a good few of my teams, but now things that were scared of powerful electric attacks can play more of a role, not cower and hope it dies before they come out.

It'll also make grass types more useful, in a way, since one of the most common resists just left. A little bit of a shakeup never hurt, right?
 
Stopping to talk about the future drops, I'm really surprised of how the people can underestimate
Tornadus-Incarnate. He has a big variety of moves, while the only Moveset that you can predict on the Team Preview is the Rain Dance Set, because it is used predominantly on Rain Teams. My favorite Set is the LO + 3 Attacks, because you have a simply non-safe switch Hurricane + Focus Blast Combo, Grass Knot to OHKO Swampert, and Taunt to defeat more defensive cores or Tailwind to improve a better matchup versus Offense and support your team, but, the other sets like the BU + 3 Attacks are very good too, since the Bulk Up + 3 Attacks is less dangerous, but is a very good set too. The Defiant Attacker can do a lot in Offense Builds too, and it is very hard to take a 110 BP Acrobatics and a 97.5 BP Knock Off.
 
Kinda glad zap might be leaving. It was good, and I'll admit it was on a good few of my teams, but now things that were scared of powerful electric attacks can play more of a role, not cower and hope it dies before they come out.

It'll also make grass types more useful, in a way, since one of the most common resists just left. A little bit of a shakeup never hurt, right?
I'm also glad Zap is leaving. Just my personal opinion but I've always had trouble with it and found it annoying.
 
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