np: ORAS UU Stage 6 - Slow Hands

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Bushtush

Banned deucer.
I have found Metagross to be an exceptionally reliable mon on my fat/ bulky offensive teams. I mainly play HO, and can make a great wallbreaker, though i dont use it much. Ive found LO sets not as effective as its bulky offensive sets(AV,Lefties,Shuca). With right support it breaks through a lot of things, and can pull of mid-late sweeps if its kept healthy. Only downside to it is the lack of power with the bulky sets, for fat teams that is more than enough power for them, but for a HO it inst really good which is why i dont use it as much.

On another note, does anyone else find Defensive Gyra to be a pain beyond belief or is that just me lol
 
Zapdos tends to be my go-to defogger, but I tend to run a specially defensive set so I think it won't benefit me too much. Pdef would certainly love it on defog, but pressure is still great for stall.


Could use Defog Salamence these days. It has higher base power moves, and gets fantastic two-move coverage with Draco Meteor and Fire Blast, letting it lure in Forretress and friends, kill them off, then Defog away their hazards. Plus this Salamence runs Intimidate, helping to mitigate Gyarados setups anyway.
 
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Bushtush

Banned deucer.
So Gyarados..A mon thats certainly leaving quite the impression on the meta

When Gyarados was first introduced into UU, I didnt give it much thought. I speculated on how good of a set up sweeper it was and how i would love to try it out. But when it came to building to counter it? That wasnt much of a priority. But boy can I tell you this thing is certainly on my mind every time i build offence now, or even balance. There are two types of Gyras typically used and what I look out for: DD Gyras and Bulky Gyras

DD Gyra. A threat beyond belief. Allowing this thing the chance to even get up 1 DD will certainly give you issues for the rest of the battle. It can switch into a physical attack and get the intimidate drop, then proceed to DD up and preform some mid-late game sweeps, heck even start it sweeps from the beginning. Lefties sets gives it good, subtle recovery and prolongs its sweeping time. LO sets hit tremendously hard, and sometimes a DD inst even necessary to deal out huge amounts of damage. DD+ 3attacks or DD+2attacks+sub finds yourself being able to set up on Aloma(which cant do anything in return especially if your sub) and the only a handful of mons come to mind that can switch into DD+3 attacks safely,one being Chesnaught ( just spiky shielding in on Bounce and proceed to seed stall). Regardless, DD Gyra has become one of UUs most prominent sweeps and definitely a threat for many teams.

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 186-219 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery-If your sub aloma wont be doing anything in return


Now onto Bulky Gyra. the set i fear most. Its an absolute nightmare for offensive teams as it can switch into ANY physical hit, twave and switch out. Now granted it cant do that many times, especially with rocks up. But the few times it does it is definitely a headache to deal with.Overall the set i hate dealing with the most.

Gyarados might be something fun to use for some, but its definitely a hassle for me, even to the point were I dont like building around it. Wanted to see how people felt about Gyra. Is it a Godsend, a mon you've been waiting for all this time. Or is it, and it certainly is for me, a hassle to try and check/counter and something you hate dealing with. Hope people find Gyra just as annoying as i do :D
 

esche

woohoo
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Bushtush said:
DD+2attacks+sub finds yourself being able to set up on Aloma(which cant do anything in return especially if your sub)

+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 186-219 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery-If your sub aloma wont be doing anything in return
Last time I checked Alomomola runs Protect and if it didn't, it definitely should now. Alomomola is probably the most reliable (Sub+DD) Gyara counter besides Chesnaught. While it is true that the standard set runs Scald + Knock Off, and it is also true that neither of them can break Gyaras Sub in one hit, Gyara doesn't do anything to Alomomola with Waterfall, even at +6. Additionally, most variants run Rocky Helmet, and Gyara is already pressured to use Sub every second turn (Knock Off breaks the sub in two hits).

+6 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 211-249 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

DD + 3 Attack variants are more threatening to Alomomola but live in fear of Scald.

1) Gyara DDs on the switch to Alomomola.
2) Gyara uses DD again, Alo uses Knock Off (If you see no Leftovers)

At this point, Gyaras most powerful attacks to hit Alo (EQ or Stone Edge) are a 3HKO.
+2 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 193-228 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

3) Gyara DDs, Alo spams Scald (30% to burn)

At this point, Adamant Gyara has a decent chance to 2HKO Alo with EQ/Stone Edge but the more common Jolly variant (especially on 3 attacks) fails to 2HKO.
+3 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 242-285 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 220-259 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4.1) Adamant Gyara attacks, Alo spams Scald (51% to burn)
4.2) Jolly Gyara DDs, Alo spams Scald (51% to burn)
5.1) Adamant Gyara attacks, Alo faints (sigh no burn)
5.2) Jolly Gyara attacks, Alo spams Scald (66% to burn)
6) Jolly Gyara attacks, Alo faints (still no burn? smh)
In the end, you have a 51% chance to burn Adamant variants and a 66% to burn (the more common) Jolly variants.
This does not include switching Alo out to get Regenerator health back which is an option at 5.1) and 6).


If you want to run Alo as your dedicated Gyara counter, I recommend using this set:

Alomoshithead (Alomomola) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpA
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Electric]
 
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Bushtush

Banned deucer.
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 492-580 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Last time I checked Alomomola runs Protect and if it didn't, it definitely should now. Alomomola is probably the most reliable (Sub+DD) Gyara counter besides Chesnaught. While it is true that the standard set runs Scald + Knock Off, and it is also true that neither of them can break Gyaras Sub in one hit, Gyara doesn't do anything to Alomomola with Waterfall, even at +6. Additionally, most variants run Rocky Helmet, and Gyara is already pressured to use Sub every second turn (Knock Off breaks the sub in two hits).

+6 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 211-249 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

DD + 3 Attack variants are more threatening to Alomomola but live in fear of Scald.

1) Gyara DDs on the switch to Alomomola.
2) Gyara uses DD again, Alo uses Knock Off (If you see no Leftovers)

At this point, Gyaras most powerful attacks to hit Alo (EQ or Stone Edge) are a 3HKO.
+2 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 193-228 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

3) Gyara DDs, Alo spams Scald (30% to burn)

At this point, Adamant Gyara has a decent chance to 2HKO Alo with EQ/Stone Edge but the more common Jolly variant (especially on 3 attacks) fails to 2HKO.
+3 252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 242-285 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 220-259 (41.5 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4.1) Adamant Gyara attacks, Alo spams Scald (51% to burn)
4.2) Jolly Gyara DDs, Alo spams Scald (51% to burn)
5.1) Adamant Gyara attacks, Alo faints (sigh no burn)
5.2) Jolly Gyara attacks, Alo spams Scald (66% to burn)
6) Jolly Gyara attacks, Alo faints (still no burn? smh)
In the end, you have a 51% chance to burn Adamant variants and a 66% to burn (the more common) Jolly variants.
This does not include switching Alo out to get Regenerator health back which is an option at 5.1) and 6).


If you want to run Alo as your dedicated Gyara counter, I recommend using this set:

Alomoshithead (Alomomola) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SpA
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Electric]
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 492-580 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. The most common Alo set i see is Toxic+Scald, but regardless itll take maybe 3-4 hits to break the sub. In that time all you need to do is to keep DDing while getting lefties recovery, so yes Alo wont be doing much. This is in a 1v1 theorymon situation (there are many other things to factor in during a real battle) but this is just showing how potent a sweeper Gyra can be.
 
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 492-580 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO


+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 492-580 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. The most common Alo set i see is Toxic+Scald, but regardless itll take maybe 3-4 hits to break the sub. In that time all you need to do is to keep DDing while getting lefties recovery, so yes Alo wont be doing much. This is in a 1v1 theorymon situation (there are many other things to factor in during a real battle) but this is just showing how potent a sweeper Gyra can be.
Bounce, meet protect.
 

Bushtush

Banned deucer.
Bounce, meet protect.
Sigh totally forgot about protect when i made the same argument of how ches counters it..my bad lol. Still without factoring in Alo then and Ches, Gyra is still as potent a sweeper as any. And the bulky set is annoying for HO to deal with. Which sets do you guys feel are affecting you more?
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I would just like to tell you all, as someone who uses Alomomola quite a lot, it is a pretty horrible counter to Sub DD Gyarados, unless you are desperate and using HP Electric over Toxic/Knock Off which is not a terrible idea if you really are desperate. But you all seem to be considering a more standard moveset.

Since Gyardos has Substitute you are almost by definition letting it get to +6 if you switch in Alomomola with the idea of countering it. Bounce is obviously irrelevant with Protect but Gyarados can easily run EQ or Stone Edge too which destroys you.

+6 252 Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 351-414 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But the main reason Alomomola cannot counter Gyarados is because the Alomomola set on the calculator is really not good, it should not be running so few EVs in special defense. Generally you want at least 212 with a neutral nature because then you can switch into most non boosting/Grass/Electric Special attackers with little fear because Regenerator which lets you scout.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 480-565 (90.7 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 40 HP / 212 SpD Alomomola: 352-417 (73.1 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 40 HP / 212 SpD Alomomola: 265-312 (55 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 374-442 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The difference is huge, particularly if SR is up. The difference between these sets is that you can get about 29% more Special bulk in exchange for about 10% less Physical Bulk and a bit smaller Wishes. If you do not use near max HP and max defense, which you should not for most teams, then you lose the ability to counter +6 Gyarados which shouldn't be a problem because you should have other things to beat that. Remember Substitute Gyarados is made specifically to beat things like Alomomola which rely on Status and weak scalds so its not surprising that you should use something else to beat it. Its important to remember that even with low HP investment max Defense Alomomola can still counter most physical threats that it did before including Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine and Choice Band Darmanitan. The difference in physical bulk is hardly noticeable but the Special bulk is very noticeable.

I would lastly ask you to ask any RU player who uses Alomomola as to whats a good Alomomola set, they will probably invariably tell you you need at least some Spdef.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
So, people don't run HP Electric Mola with some SpA EVs to break Gyara's Sub? Like, I know it's super niche, but it can be really nice to ensure that SubDD Gyarados doesn't set up on Mola all too easily.
 
So, people don't run HP Electric Mola with some SpA EVs to break Gyara's Sub? Like, I know it's super niche, but it can be really nice to ensure that SubDD Gyarados doesn't set up on Mola all too easily.
It's one set on one Pokemon in the tier. Toxic/Knock Off is better 99% of the time. Could try M-Aggron with some Defense investment and Roar (which compromises less than Almomamola does when it must run HP Electric). Also if Gyarados runs EQ or Stone Edge on this set then it forgoes Bounce, in which case Chesnaught handles it much better than either of these two.

Also I'd like to ask about Scarf Chandy vs. Scarf Darmanitan. I run both at times. Clear advantages for Chandelure are spinblocking, Flash Fire, and Trick for the Florges/Vaporeon switch-ins. Darmanitan has access to U-turn and has a higher base speed. Which one do you prefer over the other and why?
 
So, people don't run HP Electric Mola with some SpA EVs to break Gyara's Sub? Like, I know it's super niche, but it can be really nice to ensure that SubDD Gyarados doesn't set up on Mola all too easily.
I suppose if your team is looking for a lure, provided your team does have a fairly glaring weakness to Gyarados, but as a standard its like people have stated above it is much harder to justify as the other utility moves cover more ground -- which is essentially what you want.
 
Also I'd like to ask about Scarf Chandy vs. Scarf Darmanitan. I run both at times. Clear advantages for Chandelure are spinblocking, Flash Fire, and Trick for the Florges/Vaporeon switch-ins. Darmanitan has access to U-turn and has a higher base speed. Which one do you prefer over the other and why?
They aren't very comparable in the first place, but the decision between the two is entirely team dependent, which should be pretty obvious.

Chandelure and Darmanitan fit on different builds where their assets are appreciated. From my experience Darmanitan fits on more heavy offense that need a savagely powerful speedster that maintains momentum through a quick U-Turn. Chandelier also fits on offense but it provides a tad bit of defensive utility with its typing which gives you a nice offensive check (albeit shaky) to things like choice locked Mienshao, Heracross, and ironically Darmanitan. Usually the toss-up between Trick or Memento depends upon the structure of your team. Trick helps you a bit more with defensive teams as being able to cripple something like Florges is incredibly helpful, while Memento offers a setup opportunity to a sweeper on your team (most of the time late-game).

So to answer your question, I usually prefer to use Chandelure due to having a bit more versatility than what Darmanitan only offers.
 
Has anyone tried this set on Toxicroak to deal with Umbreon, Aromatisse, Blissey, Blastoise, Empoleon, CroCune, and so on…

Toxicroak (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SpD
Nature: Adamant
-Drain Punch
-Gunk Shot
-Knock Off/Ice Punch
-Sucker Punch/Ice Punch/Earthquake /Thunderpunch

So basically the idea is to utilize Toxicroak's typing to let it handle a fairly wide range of special attackers while still having decent power. The first two moves are STAB options, Knock Off cripples psychic-types switching in, Ice Punch handles Flygon/Salamence/Gligar, Sucker Punch has priority, other coverage moves exist? Inspired by Hariyama's most common set in NU, but with the ability to handle Fairy-types and Bulky waters in addition to Ice-types (be careful around M-Abomasnow though due to Earthquake).

Here is a theorymon that might work

Toxicroak (M) @Liechi Berry
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Jolly/Adamant
-Swords Dance
-Drain Punch
-Gunk Shot/Sucker Punch
-Natural Gift

The crux of this set is that Liechi Berry converts Natural Gift into a 100-BP Grass-type move, letting Toxicroak serve as a Swampert lure. But it has the additional versatility of providing an extra attack boost of Toxicroak gets weakened (unlike some other berries--i.e. this set has no use for Petaya). Other moves are standard fare (could use Cross Chop-->Drain Punch if you really wanted). Thoughts?
 
Has anyone tried this set on Toxicroak to deal with Umbreon, Aromatisse, Blissey, Blastoise, Empoleon, CroCune, and so on…

Toxicroak (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SpD
Nature: Adamant
-Drain Punch
-Gunk Shot
-Knock Off/Ice Punch
-Sucker Punch/Ice Punch/Earthquake /Thunderpunch

So basically the idea is to utilize Toxicroak's typing to let it handle a fairly wide range of special attackers while still having decent power. The first two moves are STAB options, Knock Off cripples psychic-types switching in, Ice Punch handles Flygon/Salamence/Gligar, Sucker Punch has priority, other coverage moves exist? Inspired by Hariyama's most common set in NU, but with the ability to handle Fairy-types and Bulky waters in addition to Ice-types (be careful around M-Abomasnow though due to Earthquake).
You realize the normal SD Toxicroak pretty much already beats all of those? The only one that might be an issue would be MStoise, but Umbreon/Blissey/Empoleon aren't taking +2 Drain Punches well, and neither is Aromatisse taking a Gunk Shot(not to mention it's not really used in UU). And that set you've posted actually loses to CroCune, considering you have no way to boost high enough to break its bulk. Even the coverage moves you list don't really benefit anything - most things that would resist one STAB get demolished by the other. If you want to take hits better, just run the bulkier SD variant.

God I hope sniper doesn't see somebody posted an AV Croak set...
 
Hoopa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt / Trick

If you have not tried Choice Specs Hoopa, I suggest you do.

If you've been living under a rock, OU is currently suspecting Hoopa-Unbound for a set similar to this. It's famed for have literally no safe switch-in throughout the entire metagame. Choice Specs Hoopa-Confined can nearly boast this as well in UU. It just screws over those generic Florges / Bulky Water / Forretress builds with such ease and the best counterplay to it on these builds are usually Pursuit Mega Aerodactyl. I've been using it lately on some classic BO + VolTurn HO and it just puts in so much work it's absurd. You can literally click anything and watch what normally comes in get cleanly stripped of upwards 55% from Shadow Ball alone. Even Blissey and Florges, who can tank a Shadow Ball, just get decimated by Psyshock so easily. The absolute best check I could find to Choice Specs Hoopa is AV Escavalier, if it lacks the AV it just dies to Shadow Ball, P2 if it's lucky enough not to come in on a Focus Blast, Umbreon (same applies to it as P2). Obviously it gets a lot of flak for being stomped by Pursuit, but once you realize that not a single Pursuit Trapper in the tier is ever going to come in for free out of the threat of what it's actually running you'd understand how much of a threat it really is.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 40 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 228-268 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 146-172 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Snorlax: 322-380 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 310-366 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 182-215 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 364-429 (106.7 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you didn't skim over it the fastest Pursuit Trapper, Mega Aerodactyl just dies after Stealth Rock, Escavalier dies, Krookodile is nearly 2HKOed, Snorlax dies, Honchrow gets slammed, and the other trappers (doublade, meta) pretty obviously just die.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 199-235 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 396-466 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 238-282 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 193-228 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 312-368 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 234-276 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 240-284 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 238-282 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Most of them just die, that's insane. It's downfalls are pretty much a non-issue when it's "checks" are usually slower than it and they all get 2HKOed. Pursuit also isn't on every single team either, meaning it's not always going to be deadweight against offense as you can go the simple wash, rinse, repeat method where you just switch out and setup another opportunity for Hoopa to blow holes in the opposition when the chance arises, and trust me it happens a lot. By no means is it perfect, but it deserves a lot more recognition as an insanely powerful breaker that threatens all playstyles while practically being unwallable, forces tons of 50/50's. Try it imo and Tblot is for those random Mandibuzz you see, but trick works too I guess.
 
Modest LO seems to be a better option for wall breaking. The damage output is nearly the same and the ability to switch moves is what give hoopa such an edge. For the sake outsppeding things like cune tenta and nido id say timid would be better but a modest lo set can beat those most times either way.
 
mfw it's the same argument people made when hoopa came out

The things about LO Hoopa is that you sorely miss out on its phenomenal special bulk (and physical to an extent) making it more liable to being revenge killed by priority and faster users. Not to mention that Shadow Ball is rather spammable and being locked into it isn't that huge of a problem despite the dark-types in the tier, who the main trapper, Krookodile, just takes a metric ton from that itself. Normal-types have Focus Blast and Psyshock to worry about, making it risky for them to come in until Hoopa has KOed the last teammate. Then switching is a thing so yeah. Specs doesn't detract from its bulk while still maintaining power that's frightening in its own right. Fun fact: It survives Stone Edge from Mega Aerodactyl, albeit barely.
 

pokeisfun

UU player and community member
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I think we have better psychic types available to break stuff, particularly because Pursuit is flying around everywhere and Hoopa is too slow to do anything about it. Apart from the extra special bulk and spin blocker status, I'm struggling to see why I would use this from Azelf or Zam since they 2HKO all walls too. I would probably only use this with Webs or Trick Room (not on a tr team but a stand alone).

Psychic types in particular don't strike me as a good choice user since (unlike Hoopa unbound) you have no very spammable move, and you are complete pursuit bait. Also no uturn or volt switch although that's more of an luxury than a necessity I suppose.
 
Yeah, Pursuit being everywhere hurts Hoopa real hard, but I don't think that's why people shouldn't be using Specs Hoopa. Specs really have close to no switch ins, but the prediction argument is really strong here, since both STABs are resisted or immune to common types in Dark and Normal, you have to predict a bit, especially if you wanna hit some blasts on things like P2 or Umbreon. Theorymoning a bit, if I wanted a Specs ghost type, I'd go with Chandelure; if I wanted a Specs psychic type I'd take Gardevoir: both have excelent STABs, hits really hard, has access to Trick, Memento, considerably good bulk while having a better speed tier. Krook can never switch on those mons, since both Fire Blast and Moonblast easily KOes it. Gardevoir btw barely cares about Pursuit, with Band Krook being the only Pursuit user that actually harms her (252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 130-154 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO).

Not saying Hoopa is bad by any means, but I'd still stick with TR Hoopa if I'd wanna make the best use of it. Both NP + Dual STAB and TR + 3 Atks LO are great options that fit very well on certain teams.
 
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Shadestep

volition immanent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

I hate this thread being dead, as I always enjoy reading it, so I wanted to post something about a Pokemon I've been using with lots of success lately. Virizion's unique (to UU atleast) Fighting - Grass typing makes it a great add to loads off Bulky Offense / Balance teams. it's ability to switch in to Empoleon, Suicune and Swampert without fearing a burn (due to Lum Berry) is something not a lot of Pokemon are capable of. it has decent Sp. Def so it can beat CM Cune as long as it hasn't gotten too out of hand. Ice Tea gave me a sweet team with this thing on it, which featured a solid Alakazam switch-in (necessary, Virizion is obviously always revenge-killed by it), and Pokemon that appreciate bulky Water-types being gone, like Mega Absol, Entei or Darmanitan. I'd say Virizion definitely needs support to function well on a team, but this set also provides great support and offensive pressure. the Stone Edge + Swords Dance + a teammate that gets up SR is a deadly combination, allowing it to beat Zapdos easier and clearing the way for teammates.
 
| 50 | Zapdos | 3.43978%
| 51 | Sylveon | 3.15848%
| 52 | Altaria-Mega | 3.10501%
| 53 | Conkeldurr | 3.10427%

good and bad news UU
in the next days we probably will be getting Sylveon and Conkeldurr, as many have wanted for a long time, at the price of losing Zapdos for OU :(
Sylveon and Conk will be fun additions to UU but losing Zapdos is gonna hurt :/ pretty unique mon which im gonna miss a lot

im sure there are some ridiculous calcs about things like Specs Sylveon, which has about 0 switchins in UU, but I will let you guys do the talk
what to expect from the next drops?
 
Altarianite is still banned, yes? Good.

Sylveon will be a bitch and a half to deal with. There simply aren't very many Pokemon that can stand Hyper Voice without being 3HKO'd. Blissey is, of course, one of them, but SpDef Bronzong and Empoleon are the others that regularly see UU light. SpDef Mega Steelix actually mostly avoids the 3HKO (8.3% chance) but is 2HKO'd by Specs HP Fire. Not a fantastic option to be locked into, obviously, but Pixilate Hyper Voice is fucking mean so I can see stall teams taking what they can get.

So I've spent the last ten minutes running some calcs and looking for SOMETHING that either isn't a huge momentum sink or actually has reliable recovery and there really isn't anything. Anything that can do something back or not just sit there under a barrage of Hyper Voices (a handful of Steel-types) doesn't have recovery, so good luck keeping them healthy, and Blissey is literally the one fucking thing in every tier below OU that isn't insta-3HKO'd by Hyper Voice that has recovery. This may be too much for UU.

I'm super stoked for Conk's drop, though. Bulky offense is gonna get WAY more dangerous, and Conk is versatile enough that you are straight-up fucked if you guess its set wrong. Think it's SubPunch and switch in Crobat? Good job, it just Sheer Force Thunder Punched your ass. Hell, you could even run 252 Speed to spook 0 Speed Florges and pop it with SF Poison Jab. Assault Vest will be as fuckawful as ever for offense. Guts Orb is also possible, but that may remain Heracross' domain for its speed.
 
im sure there are some ridiculous calcs about things like Specs Sylveon, which has about 0 switchins in UU, but I will let you guys do the talk
Sylveon will be a bitch and a half to deal with. There simply aren't very many Pokemon that can stand Hyper Voice without being 3HKO'd. Blissey is, of course, one of them, but SpDef Bronzong and Empoleon are the others that regularly see UU light. SpDef Mega Steelix actually mostly avoids the 3HKO (8.3% chance) but is 2HKO'd by Specs HP Fire. Not a fantastic option to be locked into, obviously, but Pixilate Hyper Voice is fucking mean so I can see stall teams taking what they can get.

So I've spent the last ten minutes running some calcs and looking for SOMETHING that either isn't a huge momentum sink or actually has reliable recovery and there really isn't anything. Anything that can do something back or not just sit there under a barrage of Hyper Voices (a handful of Steel-types) doesn't have recovery, so good luck keeping them healthy, and Blissey is literally the one fucking thing in every tier below OU that isn't insta-3HKO'd by Hyper Voice that has recovery. This may be too much for UU.
Arguments like these frustrate the hell out of me because they display a severe lack of understanding as to how Sylveon would play in UnderUsed, as well as the state the metagame is currently under. While not a common occurrence in this thread, this conversation and many others very similar to it have been had in our PS! room and I've always met it with the same opposition. I guess I get to do it again, hopefully this time someone gets the point.

Having "0 switch-ins" doesn't make something broken, especially in this metagame. It doesn't, end of story. Don't believe me? Life Orb Hydreigon, Choice Band Crawdaunt, Dragon Dance Salamence, Mamoswine, Nasty Plot Infernape, and an argument can be made for Mega Camerupt. Fuck, even Specs Exploud is ridiculous in its own way, but it's never been a problem. None of these Pokemon have a "bona-fide" switch in under certain circumstances and have to be maneuvered around in a specific manner in order to be beaten. Choice Specs Sylveon will be one of those threats, but is going to find itself being about as effective as CB Crawdaunt. Let me break this down for you: Both CB Crawdaunt and Specs Sylveon have a very powerful, spammable move (Adaptability Knock Off and Pixilate Hyper Voice respectively) and the limited auxiliary coverage options patch up where the that attack misses out. Both however, are slow and super reliant on that one attack in order to be of any use.

The ability to 3HKO a threat with a resisted STAB move might seem scary, but anyone I've ever heard use this as the basis for an argument forgets what goes back Sylveon's way the minute it decides to stay in and spam Hyper Voice. An HP investment alone is not enough to make Sylveon a sturdy enough threat to unrealistically spam Hyper Voice on threats like Mega Steelix, Nidoqueen, or Doublade. Doing so makes you stupid - your Sylveon is dying that turn (naturally outsped by Nidoqueen actually) - and you'll probably find yourself up Shit's Creek since your wallbreaker just got sent packing.

Know what else really sucks for Specs Slyveon? If you don't run a Mega Evolution or Cobalion / Virizion / Lucario, Sylveon becomes your Knock Off switch-in, which is going to reduce any presence it has. Now it won't be hitting as hard and it cannot heal itself. Not the most outstanding argument against why Specs Sylveon is great on paper and middling in practice, but it's definitely a contributing factor.

Alternatively, a max-Defense, Calm Mind set similar to the one employed by Florges is going to be Slyveon's best set thanks to its higher physical bulk and stronger STAB move. I figure Specs and a WishPass set will end up with the most usage; both are effective, I won't doubt that. The lack of reliable bulk and mega dependence on Hyper Voice to do any real damage is going to severely shunt how effective the Specs set gets to be though. Sylveon's unfortunate Speed tier is going to hold it back even more too: things like Dragalge and Exploud get away with having a low Speed stat by having ridiculous coverage options. Sylveon gets all of Psyshock, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power. I'm not worried.

At the end of the day, these drops haven't happened yet and shouldn't really be discussed until they do. Until then, we should be focused on the current metagame. Foresight is great, but it's distracting.
 

kokoloko

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yeah but unlike crawdaunt and all the other mons you mentioned, sylv actually has swichin opportunities, so it'll be way more dangerous. esp since hyper voice does 45 min to max hp crobat so it doesnt rly need to predict. wonder if av metagross will actually be ok now??

also cm is gonna blow because it doesn't get one turn recovery so you're stuck using cm/hyper/wish/protect without cleric abilities, so it can't beat stall, which is kinda the whole point of cm florg. it'll be usable on some teams, but in general you'll want either specs or an umbreon-esque set with hyper/wish/protect/heal bell.
 
Can I just say Sylveon will be absolutely terrifying on Trick Room? It might be frail enough for strong Priority to knock it around (see: Band Entei) but damn will it be impossible to actually switch in to.
 
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