np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Good job Philip.

Aye Lee, almost every nominated suspect must be treated differently, and relative to what compliments that particular suspect the most. For these reasons, I see a Wobbuffett, Darkrai and Deoxys ban becomming very popular, as they can all work wonders on almost any team. Personally, at present I don't think Dory is the most pressing concern, although it's definitely an effective pokemon, and an excellent rapid spinner. Lati@s I'm also indecisive on, again they are top-OU, but not as clearly "broken" or detrimental to the metagame in comparison to something like Darkrai is. Darkrai should have been banned straight away. When I come back, it will be interesting to see not only what has been banned, but whether or not anything has been unbanned. If I had to predict, I'd say Wob, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, maybe Skymin.

@Reachzero: I think what's more likely is that people naturally categorise "weather" as one playstyle, which is now obviously more previlant, due to the reasons you outlined, as more as more abilities, etc. Because weather has got a "boost", people have noticed this and started to question it's effectiveness as being detrimental. I think this is more of a temporary thing, it's just change. From what i've played, I'd still call rain teams as more effective than Sandstream teams, mostly due to the water move boost, and the amount of versatility available to a rain team. However neither weather is in my opinion, as obviously broken as some previous ubers, such as Darkrai.

Shame I'm away for the second part of the testing period, and for the actual voting. Acheiving 1500 in the 100 mins I have available before seems rather unlikely :-/. Oh well, I'll definitely be voicing my opinions the time after this. The only thing I am certain of is that the metagame of Jan 2nd will not be the endgame metagame, it's still to early, and with too few DW releases to know of anything for certain yet. Although, I do approve of this early balance attempt. Great job again to Philip and Super, and everyone else working behind the scenes.
 
Lee said:
Just to play devils advocate for a moment; why are people nominating Politoed and then, in the same breath, Doryuuzu? If you're nominating Politoed I assume you believe that it is the provider of the weather condition that is broken under the support characteristic, and not the sweepers that benefit from it (eg. Kingdra). Why is it a different scenario with Doryuuzu - shouldn't Tyranitar and Hippowdon be the suspects?
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Propably because Rain is boosting a lot of Pokemon not just Kingdra, namely every attacker that uses Water Type moves, Swift Swimmers and Thunder abusers (and some niche things like Hydration, Dryskin etc.). Sand Storm is only boosting Doryuuzu ,Randorusu and to a lesser extent Garchomp (other abusers exist but aren't used much) out of these guys only Doryuuzu is claimed to be broken while Rain itself makes so many things incredible strong that even Politoed itself gets an extreme Threat and things like Manaphy, Kingdra and if played right even Parsect can be almost impossible to handle.

tl;dr The only "broken" thing in Sand Storm is Dory, but Rain makes a lot of things so strong it becomes broken itself.

Edit: double ninja'd
 
I'd like to see numbers and statistics for what rain just pushes over the edge. Obviously stuff like Magikarp and Seaking would have to be ignored.
 
Sand was the most dominant weather in Gen 4 and it's still the most dominant, auto-rain or sun or not. Sand has two viable weather starters that are great pokemon in their own respect, Politoed and Ninetales are nowhere near as good.
 
I restarted the OU ladder. I'd change the announcement, but people don't particularly like server restarts. I'll wait for the server to crash before updating the announcement.
 
I don't quite see why everyone is in for banning DrizzleToed. Yes, more Pokemon are affected by rain, but as far as I read on the forums, warstories, etc, more people seem to think sand is more broken.

By the way, anything carrying the ground-, rock- or steel-typing gets boosted by Sandstorm.
 
In my opinion:

Darkrai, Deoxys (all forms), Wobby, Shaymin-S, Latios and Garchomp will be banned.

And about weathers, it's need more tests to say any opinion, but what i see now is the metagame centralized in weather teams, when one team broke the drizzle/drought/sandstream of the other team and win the game.
 
I don't think there's a problem with every team being a "weather team" to be honest. I think it's just that people aren't used to it. If weather had existed, and been dominant in RBY, we would just be used to it, and, if anything, people would probably find it weird when there was a metagame where weather wasn't dominant.

Sort of like how we just naturally accept Earthquake is absolutely everywhere. Obviously, there's LOTS of differences though.
 
Earthquake is a move(one that was somewhat ironically nerfed pretty substantially this generation because of balloon). Not a playstyle, like weather teams are. Though that's a bit of an oversimplification; the type of offensive weather Sun and Rain give you vary a bit from something more defensive like Sand, even with the offensive upgrades it got this gen. Would wager the playstyle being complained about in more cases is related to the speed weather abilities rather than the weather concept, though the double stabs on water/fire moves are pretty brutal.

There were several bans in Gen 4(in UU in particular) tailored to strengthening or weakening playstyles, especially because Pokemon were seen as making stall too strong or weak. There's plenty of precedent for making tier changes to balance a playstyle... which is in no way comparable to a coverage move. I can't get over how weak that metaphor is.

That's not to say something should or should not be done about weather, mind you, just that it wouldn't be particularly out of the norm.
 
Sense it seems like we are listing ff what we would like to see banned: Deoxys (all forme), Shyman-Sky, Latios, Manaphy, Wobby, darkrai.
 
Deoxys all forms excluding defense form, Darkrai,shaymin-s,Latios

IMO are the only ones who deserve to be banned, wobby can only sneak in one or(two if you lucky) free kills but encore is usually better option as it force switches, Latias is a little underwhelming compared to latios but is a good support poke and lastly the only set garchomp can run with out being outclassed is the scarf set other Pokemon are giving him the run for it's money (Latios and Flygon) he better get U-turn GF >:(.

also Deoxys defense form is lackluster it will probably end up like Registeel gen 4 banned from UU but too weak to compete in standard a least it's main selling point (being one of the fastest walls) is not something too overlook plus It can recover.

but I have trust in the tiering contributors because they always make the best choices on what is right for the game to make it fair and balanced for everyone.
 
Oh Yes, I love the Ladder Reset. I reached above 1500 on the Beta server, so I know its possible, especially when there are a lot of good players in the 1400 ranking. As far as who I believe might be the first to go, I would say Darkrai and Manaphy. It baffles me that some people still argue against the two. The obviously haven't played in the top tiers of the game.

As for the Latis, Im actually comfortable enough to keep them in as a balance to check both the offensive prowess of Garchomp and Salamance, but then again I am biased because Latios is on my team and he is always MVP.

Every other pokemon I completely do not mind at all. The fact that team preview exists makes hyper offensive teams very uneasy against other kinds of teams; it nullifies the true effectiveness of weatehr based teams (since you are immediately aware which weather based pokemon is the most immediate threat), and it allows for effective playstyle against Wobbeffet.

The Deoxys are no longer, in my opinion based of countless top tier battling, any more of a threat as compared to say the Latis or Skymin or even Darkrai and Manaphy, especially now with the popularity and effectiveness of Mischevious Heart users.

Anyways, thats my brief introduction of my arguments, for the time being my goal is to get to the top of the ladder here at Smogon so that my opinions can actually matter.

#ThatPokemonFlow

[EDIT] My plan is to get Espeon banned. ;)
 
I never really got involved in 4th gen suspect testing, but with the new gen here at last, I think it's time I made my opinions heard (if I can reach the ungodly heights of 1500 that is).
 
Probably a silly question, but are we allowed to use alts to try and attain voting powers, or do we have to use our Smogon Forums username?
 
I dont think its the weather thats broken. Its Swift Swim/Sand Throw (and to a lesser extent Chlorophyll). Even Sandslash can rip stuff up with the Sand Throw boost.
I know this is pretty much a Smogon taboo, but I'd say ban the speed-in-weather-boost abilities. Each of the weathers would still have their benefits (Fire types would LOVE the sun still, and there are other types who'll appreciate a lesser water weakness, water types enjoy a more powerful STAB, not to mention Shell Smashers, and some stuff want their Fire weakness lessened, sand is still sand, and there are still weather-using abilities in Dry Skin, Hydration, Leaf Guard, Solar Power, Sand Veil, etc etc). This would also benefit Hail as the not-so-inferior-anymore weather.

Just some food for thought.
 
The only ones I want to see banned are Darkrai, Manaphy, and maybe Skymin, although I'm not sure on that one. I personally find everything else to be perfectly fine. I'm not usually for banning anything, but Manaphy and Darkrai are absolute monsters.

I personally think that Manaphy is the only broken thing in the Rain, while all of the other Rain sweepers are pretty manageable. That, plus I believe it's broken outside of Rain too. Even if it's not able to live through massive assaults outside of Rain, Tail Glow is still ridiculous, especially if you don't have a Nattorei on your team to stop it.

Darkrai is a little less monstrous, but I still find Dark Void + Bad Dreams + New Sleep mechanic to be bullshit since it means that very little can actually stand up to his attacks, especially if he boosts them. Also, it doesn't help that the Magic Mirror users are weak to Dark and that Dark Void always misses when it's aimed back at Darkrai's face. He also gets perfect coverage with Dark Pulse + Focus Blast (which seems to have 100% accuracy). On top of that, he's actually pretty bulky for such a fast and powerful sweeper. Maybe I'm just pissed at Darkrai's haxiliciousness, I might change my mind on it later.

Skymin is just generally extremely annoying with his SubSeed set, which is the only set I might find to be slightly broken. While Erufuun is a better Leech Seed staller, Skymin is a hellish offensive SubSeeder, simply because he can get health back 60% of the time for free with Air Slash, as well as keeping his Sub intact. The fact that Air Slash hits all the Grass-types bar Nattorei super-effectively just makes him that much stronger. However, I'm on the fence about Skymin, since unless it gets immense amounts of Flinchhax, he can be beaten, and he does have quite a few counters. Not to mention that a lot of stuff is faster than him in a weather-based metagame.

Yes, I know that it may seem weird that I only think 2 pokemon (Manaphy, Darkrai) are broken while being on the fence about 1. However, I really believe that everything else can be played around pretty well with smart play, especially with Team Previews. I really hope that people aren't going to just ban shit to help a certain playstyle, because that's bullshit. I have a feeling that people want to nominate Politoed because they just don't want to deal with a new weather since Sandstorm dominated in both 3rd Gen and 4th Gen. Come on, it's seriously not that hard to play around, and it can actually be beneficial to the metagame since it adds a bunch of new strategies, and helps check some of the really fast sweepers like Deoxys-A with Rain sweepers. And Sandstorm is still the dominant weather anyway...I don't understand why people insist on it being the dominant weather. If people don't want "centralization", they're definitely not going to fix the problem by banning Politoed.

Just remember, it's a new Gen. Please have an open mind when you go into this test and try your best to adapt instead of losing and then complaining that something be banned just because your individual team lost to it.
 
Tbh, I don't think Wobby should be banned this time around. Or at least it should be left in OU for at least one round of playtesting.

1) Encore Nerf
Encore only lasts about three turns this Gen. This means that if you're encored, it just means that you set up three more times. This is not as devastating as being locked into a move for 5 turns like last Gen. On pokemon like Bulk Up Roobushin, this is a blessing. You now pack +3 attack and cannot be hurt by physical moves. Same goes for Calm Mind users or for Butterfly Dance. Even Dragon Dancers aren't destroyed by it as it is much easier to sweep afterwards.

2) Power Creep
This Gen came with some powerful pokemon like Shandera, Roobushin, and Ononokusu. These pokemon are great at taking out walls like Wobbufett. Wobbuffet is even 2HKO'd by a lot of their moves. Sure, it can always counter or mirror coat, but some things are hard to predict. In addition, pokemon like Sazando are immune to mirror coat (Just as ghost types are immune to counter). Wobbufett isn't the defensive behemoth like it was last gen.

3)Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag has wider distribution this generation. That means that people are a little more prepared for it. I'm seeing way more pokemon with Shed Shell or moves like Volt Change or U-Turn. Shadow Tag's wider distribution make Wobby a little less special as well. One of the tings that set it apart was Shadow Tag, yet this generation more pokemon have it.

4) Balance
This isn't really a great reason, but Wobby in OU could balance out the metagame a lot. Wobby can take a lot of hits and respond with Counter/Mirror Coat. Dory/Gyara/Roobushin/Ulgamoth can't set up on Wobby because of Encore. Wobby can also absorb hits from pokemon like Dory and hit back with Counter for an OHKO. Wobby helps get rid of the abundance of HO teams and balances out the metagame.
 
I echo the manaphy banning. I actually cannot think of a way to stop it in the rain. Status it? Instant heal. Damage it? Rest with no drawback. Wall it? +6 in two turns+ double STABed surf, then it rips your team apart. If anyone has a way to stop it, please do tell. As I have no ideas.

Darkrai I dont see as quite that abusive, especially with mach punch/vacumm wave being more common. But sleep is far more painful in this gen, and darkrai is one of the best users of it.
 
Bologo said:
Also, it doesn't help that the Magic Mirror users are weak to Dark and that Dark Void always misses when it's aimed back at Darkrai's face.
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I'm not sure if you were being hyperbolic or not, but it still has a 80% chance of hitting Darkrai (not 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64, just 0.8). Maybe you're just being unlucky.

Bologo said:
Just remember, it's a new Gen. Please have an open mind when you go into this test and try your best to adapt instead of losing and then complaining that something be banned just because your individual team lost to it.
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Seconding this. I feel both stall and offense got ridiculous boosts this generation, it's not like the metagame is completely one-sided for us to ban to "help" a certain playstyle.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
I'm not sure if you were being hyperbolic or not, but it still has a 80% chance of hitting Darkrai (not 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64, just 0.8). Maybe you're just being unlucky.
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Of course I'm exaggerating. xD It's just that every time I make a smart play and switch Espeon into Dark Void, it seems to miss, yet every time he uses it on me, it hits. I know it still has an 80% chance to hit him. That's also why I said I might change my mind later because right now Darkrai seems broken because he's annoying the hell out of me. However, he can be manageable as long as you have something that can take the sleep and something that can take his Dark Pulse and Focus Blast. He`s kind of like a variation of Breloom which punishes you even further for sleeping thanks to Bad Dreams. Taking his attacks isn`t too difficult considering his STAB move only has 80 BP, but the amount of pressure he puts on an opponent is pretty heavy. Whether that`s grounds for being broken however, I can`t really say.
 
Cubic said:
Did everybody forget about Mew or are it's BPing sets less significant this meta?
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They're just less effective this meta. You can make him whatever sweeper or tank you want, but he's not going to be top dog at any of them. Jack of All Trades, master of none.
 
sax king said:
Tbh, I don't think Wobby should be banned this time around. Or at least it should be left in OU for at least one round of playtesting.

1) Encore Nerf
Encore only lasts about three turns this Gen. This means that if you're encored, it just means that you set up three more times. This is not as devastating as being locked into a move for 5 turns like last Gen. On pokemon like Bulk Up Roobushin, this is a blessing. You now pack +3 attack and cannot be hurt by physical moves. Same goes for Calm Mind users or for Butterfly Dance. Even Dragon Dancers aren't destroyed by it as it is much easier to sweep afterwards.

2) Power Creep
This Gen came with some powerful pokemon like Shandera, Roobushin, and Ononokusu. These pokemon are great at taking out walls like Wobbufett. Wobbuffet is even 2HKO'd by a lot of their moves. Sure, it can always counter or mirror coat, but some things are hard to predict. In addition, pokemon like Sazando are immune to mirror coat (Just as ghost types are immune to counter). Wobbufett isn't the defensive behemoth like it was last gen.

3)Shadow Tag
Shadow Tag has wider distribution this generation. That means that people are a little more prepared for it. I'm seeing way more pokemon with Shed Shell or moves like Volt Change or U-Turn. Shadow Tag's wider distribution make Wobby a little less special as well. One of the tings that set it apart was Shadow Tag, yet this generation more pokemon have it.

4) Balance
This isn't really a great reason, but Wobby in OU could balance out the metagame a lot. Wobby can take a lot of hits and respond with Counter/Mirror Coat. Dory/Gyara/Roobushin/Ulgamoth can't set up on Wobby because of Encore. Wobby can also absorb hits from pokemon like Dory and hit back with Counter for an OHKO. Wobby helps get rid of the abundance of HO teams and balances out the metagame.
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1) Encore may be nerfed, but until we get a boosting move that raises all your stats, Encore is still a great move, forcing your opponent to repeat a move to get something else in for free and do something, and despite it only giving 1 turn for you to abuse, can win you the game.

2) Wobbuffet may be 2HKOed by their moves, but they're still OHKOed back with Counter or Mirror Coat. Robbushin can't 2HKO Wobbuffet unless it decides to start using Bulk UP, which you can Encore and switch to something to deal with. Robbushin also can't 2HKO Wobbuffet that easily with Payback because Roob is faster then Wobb, so Payback doesn't get the extra power boost.

3) Uh, were sorta playing the 5th Gen OU where not all the Dream World abilitys havn't been released, so no other Pokemon has Shadow Tag yet but Wobbuffet/Wynaut.

4) I completely agree with this, except for the HO offense thing. Not going to go into detail except for wondering if Deoxys-S, Baton Pass Gliscor (or Mew), and a sweeper are going to be used.
 
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