np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Homeslice said:
Welcome to pokemon. 50% of pokemon is luck alone. Factor in all those misses, crits, low chances to status, and low chances to drop stats. Inconsistent adds to this, but really isn't needed. All of this makes pokemon 50% luck. If you want inconsistent banned so much, start abusing it because you think it is overpowered.
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Pokemon is definitely not 50% luck, not anywhere near that. Inconsistent takes control out of both players hands, making the game completely luck based. There has always, and always will be an element on luck, but to completely rely on it is just ridiculous. I have been using Inconsistent Octillery, and thats one of the reasons I think its broken.
 
Yeah, Inconsistent is seriously ridiculous. There has not been a match where I've played against Inconsistent (Octillery) where I have to spend at least 30 turns trying to kill the bloody thing, and that's when I'm lucky and it doesn't get Evasion and Defense boosts. Even if it's not completely broken (well not in the classical sense), it completely takes the fun out of playing the game. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I certainly have better things to do than to spend 10 minutes clicking a button and playing one match.
 
List of Pokemon that can outspeed Jolly 252 Doryuuzu (604 Speed) in the Sand:

Scarf +Spe Deoxys-S w/o investment
Scarf +Sp/Atk Deoxys-S w/28 Speed EVs
Scarf/+1 +Spe Ninjask w/44 Speed EVs
Scarf/+1 +Atk Ninjask w/188 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Deoxys-A w/124 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Deoxys-N w/124 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Agirudaa w/164 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Electrode w/204 Speed EVs

List of Pokemon that can outspeed Adamant 252 Doryuuzu (550 Speed) in Sand:

Scarf +Spe Deoxys-S w/o investment
Scarf +Atk Deoxys-S w/o investment
Scarf +Spe Ninjask w/o investment
Scarf/+1 +Atk Ninjask w/44 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Deoxys-A w/o investment
Scarf +Atk Deoxys-A w/124 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Deoxys-N w/o investment
Scarf +Atk Deoxys-N w/124 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Agirudaa w/32 Speed EVs
Scarf +SpAtk Agirudaa w/164 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Electrode w/72 Speed EVs
Scarf +SpAtk Electrode w/204 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Aerodactyl w/152 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Mewtwo w/152 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Crobat w/152 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Meloetta (Step Form) w/166 Speed EVs (Not 100% Sure on this)
Scarf +Spe Shaymin-S w/176 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Swellow w/192 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Weavile w/192 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Darkrai w/192 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Dugtrio w/232 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Alakazam w/232 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Sceptile w/232 Speed EVs
Scarf +Spe Arceus w/232 Speed EVs

List of Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Jolly Doryuuzu:

Deoxys-S (25% Chance): Deoxys-S@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 88 ~ 104.1% (318 ~ 376 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-A (100% Chance): Deoxys-A@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 140.1 ~ 165% (506 ~ 596 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-N (100% Chance): Deoxys-N@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 121.8 ~ 143.4% (440 ~ 518 HP) (Sandstorm)

Agirudaa (100% Chance if at full HP): Death Gambit OHKOs.

List of Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Adamant Doryuuzu:

Deoxys-S (25% Chance): Deoxys-S@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 88 ~ 104.1% (318 ~ 376 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-A (100% Chance): Deoxys-A@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 140.1 ~ 165% (506 ~ 596 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-N (100% Chance): Deoxys-N@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 121.8 ~ 143.4% (440 ~ 518 HP) (Sandstorm)

Agirudaa (100% Chance if at full HP): Death Gambit OHKOs.

Mewtwo (25% Chance): Mewtwo@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Aura Sphere vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 87.5 ~ 103.6% (316 ~ 374 HP) (Sandstorm)

Meloetta: Step Form can OHKO, but Meloetta cannot access Step Form without taking a hit from Doryuuzu, in which case she will be OHKO'd.

Darkrai (70% Chance): Darkrai@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 106.3 ~ 125.2% (384 ~ 452 HP) (Sandstorm)

Dugtrio (93% Chance): Dugtrio@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Earthquake vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 98.6 ~ 116.8% (356 ~ 422 HP) (Sandstorm)

Alakazam (70% Chance): Alakazam@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 106.3 ~ 125.2% (384 ~ 452 HP) (Sandstorm)

Arceus...you don't need me for this.
 
Obesity said:
List of Pokemon that can outspeed Jolly 252 Doryuuzu in the Sand:

Scarf Deoxys-S
Scarf/+1 Ninjask
Scarf Deoxys-A
Scarf Deoxys-N
Scarf Agirudaa
Scarf Electrode

List of Pokemon that can outspeed Adamant 252 Doryuuzu in Sand:

Scarf Deoxys-S
Scarf/+1 Ninjask
Scarf Deoxys-A
Scarf Deoxys-N
Scarf Agirudaa
Scarf Electrode
Scarf Aerodactyl
Scarf Mewtwo
Scarf Crobat
Scarf Meloetta (Step Form)
Scarf Shaymin-S
Scarf Swellow
Scarf Weavile
Scarf Darkrai
Scarf Dugtrio
Scarf Alakazam
Scarf Sceptile
Scarf Arceus

List of Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Jolly Doryuuzu:

Deoxys-S (25% Chance): Deoxys-S@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 88 ~ 104.1% (318 ~ 376 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-A (100% Chance): Deoxys-A@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 140.1 ~ 165% (506 ~ 596 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-N (100% Chance): Deoxys-N@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 121.8 ~ 143.4% (440 ~ 518 HP) (Sandstorm)

Agirudaa (100% Chance if at full HP): Death Gambit OHKOs.

List of Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Adamant Doryuuzu:

Deoxys-S (25% Chance): Deoxys-S@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 88 ~ 104.1% (318 ~ 376 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-A (100% Chance): Deoxys-A@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 140.1 ~ 165% (506 ~ 596 HP) (Sandstorm)

Deoxys-N (100% Chance): Deoxys-N@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Superpower vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 121.8 ~ 143.4% (440 ~ 518 HP) (Sandstorm)

Agirudaa (100% Chance if at full HP): Death Gambit OHKOs.

Mewtwo (25% Chance): Mewtwo@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Aura Sphere vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 87.5 ~ 103.6% (316 ~ 374 HP) (Sandstorm)

Meloetta: Step Form can OHKO, but Meloetta cannot access Step Form without taking a hit from Doryuuzu, in which case she will be OHKO'd.

Darkrai (70% Chance): Darkrai@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 106.3 ~ 125.2% (384 ~ 452 HP) (Sandstorm)

Dugtrio (93% Chance): Dugtrio@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Earthquake vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 98.6 ~ 116.8% (356 ~ 422 HP) (Sandstorm)

Alakazam (70% Chance): Alakazam@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Focus Blast vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 106.3 ~ 125.2% (384 ~ 452 HP) (Sandstorm)

Arceus...you don't need me for this.
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So the point is......... not much stuff out-speeds it? Because that doesn't make it broken.
 
SlimMan said:
So the point is......... not much stuff out-speeds it? Because that doesn't make it broken.
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There wasn't a point. There was discussion about what could outspeed Doryuuzu, so I decided to list what can outspeed Doryuuzu, and what of what can outspeed Doryuuzu can actually kill him.
 
here are a few more things that can outspeed and OHKO Dory:

Choice Specs Lucario Vacuum Wave
Techinitop Mach Punch
CB Azumarrill Aqua Jet
+2 Feraligatr Aqua Jet
Techniloom Mach Punch
Roobushin Mach Punch

and a few others too
 
I updated my Doryuuzu Outspeed list with proper EVs for the 140 base speed+ Pokemon.

sax king said:
Choice Specs Lucario Vacuum Wave
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Lucario@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Vacuum Wave vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 78.1 ~ 91.9% (282 ~ 332 HP) (Sandstorm)

No?
Techinitop Mach Punch
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Hitmontop (252 EVs, +Nature) Mach Punch vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 73.1 ~ 86.4% (264 ~ 312 HP) (Sandstorm)

No?
CB Azumarrill Aqua Jet
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Only true OHKO on this list, although he can only come in on a Swords Dance.

+2 Feraligatr Aqua Jet
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How does Feraligatr get +2?

Techniloom Mach Punch
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Breloom (252 EVs, +Nature) Mach Punch vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 90.3 ~ 106.9% (326 ~ 386 HP) (Sandstorm)

That's a 45% chance.
Roobushin Mach Punch
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Iron Fist Roobushin: Roobushin (252 EVs, +Nature) Mach Punch vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 76.4 ~ 90.3% (276 ~ 326 HP) (Sandstorm)

Guts Boosted Roobushin: Roobushin (252 EVs, +Nature) Mach Punch vs Doryuuzu (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 95.2 ~ 113% (344 ~ 408 HP) (Sandstorm)

The Guts boosted is a 76% chance.

and a few others too
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Would love to see them, since the only ones that actually got OHKOs here can't switch into any attacks, needs to setup, or don't actually have a 100% chance to OHKO.
 
Is it really necessary to have OHKOs with priority moves? Although Doryuuzu does admittedly have several immunities (electric, poison, and a ballon-granted ground), it isn't coming in for free unless it comes in on a support move or one of the above, as well as a double switch. Given the fact that Dory is often saved for late-game, odds are you won't be looking to switch in on spikes or SR (as by that point their impact will be minimal and they'll likely have been already laid), and you'll probably have to come in on a weaker attack or recovery move. Otherwise, you'll take the 15-20 percent needed to make priority a viable strategy.

Beyond that, there are several pokemon that can take a single hit from Dory and KO back, meaning that even if they can't initially switch in, they can revenge it after it has killed something.

I still think that we may have jumped the gun on seeking to identify and ban suspects so early in the metagame - just look at what happened 4th gen. People clamored for the banning of Manaphy and Garchomp and they had to be brought down later on in the metagame for additional testing (admittedly, things changed, but they will in this case, too). Obviously they were going to be broken when people were still running things like GyaraVire and other similar tactics.

There are a few pokemon that stand out, naturally, but would these pokemon really be suspects if they hadn't made such a splash in previous generations? If Garchomp were introduced this gen, would people be considering it a suspect if it hadn't been so already? The same goes for Skymin and Darkrai. I don't know. Maybe its just me, but I think we're being to hasty here, trying to craft a perfect metagame within 3-4 months of the games' release.
 
Or you could sacrifice a poke in exchange to bring dory in for a nearly guaranteed sweep, if all they have to check you are the too-weak priority moves. Good thing you don't have to outspeed it, there's defensive and offensive checks (gliscor, rankurusu) who can take a hit a ko back.
 
IcyMan28 said:
Is it really necessary to have OHKOs with priority moves? Although Doryuuzu does admittedly have several immunities (electric, poison, and a ballon-granted ground), it isn't coming in for free unless it comes in on a support move or one of the above, as well as a double switch. Given the fact that Dory is often saved for late-game, odds are you won't be looking to switch in on spikes or SR (as by that point their impact will be minimal and they'll likely have been already laid), and you'll probably have to come in on a weaker attack or recovery move. Otherwise, you'll take the 15-20 percent needed to make priority a viable strategy.
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You gave a solution to this problem with your next paragraph.

Beyond that, there are several pokemon that can take a single hit from Dory and KO back, meaning that even if they can't initially switch in, they can revenge it after it has killed something.
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Likewise, Doryuuzu can revenge many Pokemon after said Pokemon has killed something.
 
Technitop and Techloom usually carry Life Orb. Mach Punch would do 94.7% - 111.9% and 116.9% - 138.5% respectively. Hitmontop can go for Fake Out (15.8% - 18.6%) + Mach Punch for the KO.
 
KK

--Spec Luke does a shitload of damage, and most LO variants are OHKO'd
--Hitmontop OHKO's with a LO
--Azumarill can revenge
--Feraligatr can get +2 from SD
--With SR and the lowest possible damage output, Techniloom leaves Dory at 3.4%
--Guts Roobushin is much more common
--Iron fist Infernape does about 80.3-90.3%
--LO Toxicroak does 56.5-66.5% with Vacuum Wave
--CB Mamoswine does about 50-60%
 
Leman said:
Technitop and Techloom usually carry Life Orb. Mach Punch would do 94.7% - 111.9% and 116.9% - 138.5% respectively. Hitmontop can go for Fake Out (15.8% - 18.6%) + Mach Punch for the KO.
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Well I wasn't told that. I used what was given to me. Also, why assume Doryuuzu's going to stay in? If a known priority user is coming into Dory, get out. It's like Jolteon coming into an unboosted Gyarados. You just don't stay in. You get out, switch into something to eat the mutt, then bring Gyarados back in.
 
sax king said:
KK

--Spec Luke does a shitload of damage, and most LO variants are OHKO'd
The damage calc says all non-LO variants survive, and most are balloon (so no spikes). Same as the bottom 3, only works if you're running multiple priorities.

--Hitmontop OHKO's with a LO
--Azumarill can revenge

--Feraligatr can get +2 from SD
When does he get the chance to SD versus Dory?

--With SR and the lowest possible damage output, Techniloom leaves Dory at 3.4%

--Guts Roobushin is much more common
Doesn't mean guts is active

--Iron fist Infernape does about 80.3-90.3%
--LO Toxicroak does 56.5-66.5% with Vacuum Wave
--CB Mamoswine does about 50-60%
These don't matter unless you're running multiple, and then one still dies.
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sax king said:
--Spec Luke does a shitload of damage, and most LO variants are OHKO'd
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Well it doesn't OHKO. It's only a 13% chance to OHKO after a turn of LO damage. Also, Balloon is at 70.95% usage, lol.

--Hitmontop OHKO's with a LO
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You didn't say that.

--Azumarill can revenge
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True, but what else is Azumarill good for? Anything that resists/is immune to water will wreck it.

--Feraligatr can get +2 from SD
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Doryuuzu@Balloon (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Feraligatr@Choice Specs (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 59.8 ~ 70.4% (186 ~ 219 HP) (Sandstorm)

Feraligatr@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Aqua Jet vs Doryuuzu@Balloon (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 68.1 ~ 80.3% (246 ~ 290 HP) (Sandstorm)

Feraligatr doesn't win this.

--With SR and the lowest possible damage output, Techniloom leaves Dory at 3.4%
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And everyone knows Techniloom is something Doryuuzu doesn't visit for tea and crumpets with.

--Guts Roobushin is much more common
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More common =/= everything else is irrelevant. 38% isn't rarely used.

--Iron fist Infernape does about 80.3-90.3%
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Doryuuzu@Balloon (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Infernape@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 167.9 ~ 197.2% (492 ~ 578 HP) (Sandstorm)

And then gets completely raped by the proceeding EQ.

--LO Toxicroak does 56.5-66.5% with Vacuum Wave
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Doryuuzu@Balloon (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Toxicroak@Life Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 170.6 ~ 201.3% (524 ~ 618 HP) (Sandstorm)

And then gets completely raped by the proceeding EQ.

--CB Mamoswine does about 50-60%
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With what, exactly?

Bug Maniac Marc said:
wait, why can azumarill "only come in on a swords dance"?
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Doryuuzu@Balloon (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Azumarill@Choice Band (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 65.1 ~ 76.8% (222 ~ 262 HP) (Sandstorm)

Because after a +2 EQ, SR, and two turns of Sandstorm, Azumarill is completely useless.
 
erm, well after letting a doryuuzu getting a swords dance instead of switching directly to azumarill, losing one poke doesnt look so bad... I'm trying to think of pokemon that can switch into a plus 2 salamence or dragonite, and shrug off a move that much better than the aforegiven example

and even water resistant pokes don't want to take a double edge/return.
hahah, what else is azumarill good for. You guys crack me up
 
Look it doesn't matter how much damage each pokemon does to it. It's far from broken, has multiple counters, can be walled by many pokemon, and can be easily taken down by priority moves. Sure, a lot of those things don't OHKO, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it. It can be worn down by multiple strong priority attacks, and can be dealt with. Dory is far from broken.
 
First off, let me start by saying: "Just because it has counters, doesn't mean it's not broken." This applies to Dory really more than any other pokemon in OU.

Now, if one was to consider Dory broken (I'm not extremely adamant about it), the biggest issue I have with it is the dynamic to the speed game it brings to OU, which is completely unhealthy. Dory Outpeeds Deoxys-S and every scarf-user in the game without doing anything! Yes you can say it loses that speed should sand break, but let's face it-- Sand will always be the primary weather due to Tyranitar and Hippowdon's completely superiority as individual pokemon to Politoed.

Also, Rain v. Rain becomes something of a crap shoot with Rain teams having little means of good anti-rain support available to them for mirror matches. This flaw in the "rain style" to me, means that amongst "good players" (note: not "great players" this is a different player group, the great players are exceptional exceptions), the players who create the standard of a metagame, sand will always be the more popular weather.


Now in this sand weather, Dory completely changes the dynamic of speed. scarfGarchomp can't touch it. scarfLatios can't touch it. Dory:

1) Doesn't need Choice Scarf.
2) Doesn't need to lock itself into attacks
3) Has bulk statistically almost on par with Machamp
4) Has room for a defensive item that makes it immune to its most common weakness, and a host of resistances
5) Packs Swords Dance

All while being faster than every single Scarf user in the game. Am I missing something, or is the above . . . well, insane?

Dory is perfectly built for late game sweep-- That speed, bulk, and sweeping power is extremely hard to touch, and while it might be lacking in coverage moves, but that weakness becomes more and more irrelevant with the passing of the game. Furthermore, Balloon removes problems with Spikes. If you thought Flygon was an amazing early-revenge-to-late-game-sweep transition poke in 4th Gen (it was AWESOME), Fory is everything Flygon was and so, so much more.


To me, excluding Balloon pokemon, the only really relevant counter is Gliscor-- Gliscor's presence is what makes Dory somewhat palatable. Unlike Skarmory, Gliscor actually has a means of killing last-poke-dory, and with Poison Heal, SR neutrality, and immunity to Spikes and sand, it has the durability to keep up with Dory the whole game.

Frankly though, I really don't think that Gliscor should be on every team just to beat Dory, nor do I think it's great that Gliscor is the go-to-check when Gliscor is already over-relied on to handle Lucario, Roob, Terrakion and Lando. Gliscor can fall to the "Double Ground/Fight" strategy, and unlike other sweepers that have a chance of being revengers, when Dory's path opens, it opens WIDE open.
 
Try not categorizing Doryuuzu under the Offensive Characteristic of Uber without sugarcoating the facts. It may not be "broken" in this metagame, but as time goes on you'll see it is too powerful. At some point everyone will wise up and see how much it disturbs the balance of the metagame.
 
It is very fast and still powerful, but in this metagame with inconsistent, and other very large threats, it definantly hasn't had a chance to shine. But I do not believe it will be uber after the banning of inconsistent, shaymin-s, Darkrai, and deoxys. Far too much can check it. And even if it was banned, Sandslash can easily fill it's place, only losing to + speed base 105+ pokemon, and +2 pokemon (so it's not as good at revenge killing agility/rock polish pokes as dory). With an earth plate, it's earthquake rivals balloon dory's, and it's unboosted stone edge is stronger than doryuuzu's rockslide. It's coverage move is its only weaker move. However, it has increased bulk over the mole; no fighting and earth weaknesses really helps. As does not having to protect a balloon.
 
I'm not arguing with you Kevin, I also, if I had to pick a side, think Dory should be banned.

edit: Also, who cares if it has had a chance to shine? Whether Inconsistency, Shaymin S, Manaphy etc. etc. are banned or not, it has no relevance to the fact that Dory breaks the game in a way that's not about to change by banning other suspects.

edit: @Arc-- than we will discuss banning Sandslash when that time comes . . . >___> that has no real relevance on Dory.
 
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