True but none of them have a 591 Attack Draco Meteor that pounds through almost everything, 110 base speed, Trick to cripple switches, etc. Sazandora can come close with Draco Meteor but the Mach Punch weakness makes it even more vulnerable than Latios to Pursuit Scizor/Tyranitar as Mach Punches are going to kill. Kingdra is better in rain, Dragonite's Draco Meteors do come off 100 base SAtk which is not nearly as bad as Specs 130. I suppose you could use Kyurem for 130 SAtk stab Draco Meteor. Latios is broken with Soul Dew once it obtains it in Black/White.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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You know Sazandora resists Pursuit? So its far less vulnerable to them and also gets Flamethrower to roast Scizor without using Hp Fire. It Also gets U-Turn wich can work even better than Trick.
The Point is that 591 SpA fireing off Draco Meteors is imo pretty extreme especially when coupled with 110 Base Speed and an extremely useful typing (this Gen the Psychic typing is much more helpful compared to last Gen). I dont know if its really broken, but its much more "broken" compared to Deoxys-A/N, because it actually can switch in and isn't killed by the slightest breeze (it can live through a Roopushin Mach Punch, but it can't switch in).
I definitely have more trouble with Latios than Deo-A (not that I really think Deo-A belongs either but . . .)
Does Specs Latios count. Tail Glow's always lose to. Manaphy comes in. Latios comes in on Tail Glow or Ice Beam and live, you OHKO with Draco Metoer. Even bulky sets lose to thunder versions. You also easily outspeed.
When I was talking about Rest, I was referring to people who were insisting that Manaphy was invincible or some crap like that because of Rest when it largely does the same thing that Recover does, except it's way better against defensive tactics. I do get that overall Rest is way better, but calling Manaphy invincible is an exaggeration.
Agreed. Latios is stupidly powerful. At least with Latias you could use Scizor/Tyranitar and Pursuit it so you knew you were rid of it. But SpecsLatios 2HKOs Scizor without taking a hit, and likewise 2HKOs Scarftar, while Pursuit does 53.8% - 63.8% if you stay in.
Once PO updates Mental Herb's effect, it'll be interesting to see people trying to deal with Darkrai now. As Mental Herb now cures Taunt and Encore, with the exception of a Magic Mirror switching in Darkrai now has Dark Void or Nasty Plot at least once, guaranteed. Given, Erufuun can taunt, then Encore, but that doesn't work very well when it's asleep.
With Taunt and Encore being stopped dead, really the only viable ways I can see of beating Darkrai are either with something fast like Agiradua (I think I spelt that right, the assassin bug with base 145 spe), a good sleep-immune Pokemon (of which most Insomnia and Vital Spirit users die to Darkrai, so really only Hydration things, which would overcentralize around rain to beat Darkrai), Heracross (Heracross absolutely laughs at Darkrai, in case you didn't know), or praying that you can cripple it after switching your sleeping thing out on its Nasty Plot.
Also, it's a pity that I don't have the time until after the deadline to get my rating that high. Oh well, I suppose I can theorymon.
With Taunt and Encore being stopped dead, really the only viable ways I can see of beating Darkrai are either with something fast like Agiradua (I think I spelt that right, the assassin bug with base 145 spe), a good sleep-immune Pokemon (of which most Insomnia and Vital Spirit users die to Darkrai, so really only Hydration things, which would overcentralize around rain to beat Darkrai), Heracross (Heracross absolutely laughs at Darkrai, in case you didn't know), or praying that you can cripple it after switching your sleeping thing out on its Nasty Plot.
Also, it's a pity that I don't have the time until after the deadline to get my rating that high. Oh well, I suppose I can theorymon.
Alright, manaphy, darkrai, shaymin-s are still just as broken as they were previously. There is nothing new in this generation that truly shutdown that didn't exist previously in some form in the last game. Everyone keeps talking about outspeeding and OHKO manaphy with an electric/grass attack. Well, i run Wacan berry manaphy, so i force a switch and tail glow, and when i see lati@s or jolteon and they use their SE electric attack i just laugh and OHKO back and then wreck their team. I have came across some people who do have 2 electric users, but i just killed a powerful pokemon on their team and it leaves another member of team open for attacking. Overall, still broken and remember their is still pokemon on his team, so if someone brings a grass user, i switch to my next pokemon that i about to discuss shaymin-s,
Shaymin-s is still faster than any none scarf/speed-boosted pokemon and with air slash/seed flare alone can wreck EVERY pokemon. The only pokemon that may survive are still and then he carries earth power to handle them. If he is running a defensive set (leechsub) then priority counters will get destroyed when trying ot handle him One on One. I haven't found any true counters to Shaymin-s
Darkrai had counters in the previous game in the forms of scarf primeape/heracross or sleep talk heracross(beast), yet he was still banned to ubers why, unless you ran a specific counter to him, he would destroy teams alone. In this gen, with roobushin most people think darkrai is still no threat, you take a sleep hit, and then switch and hit with SE mach right? nope darkrai has surprising bulk to survive a mach punch, and my darkrai holds chople berry(i think) which weakens fighting hits, and has psychic(lame right) to counter them with. Even without nasty plot he still takes out 2-3 pokemon through sleep and KOing before dying.
Overall view, they are still broken and nothing about them has been truly weakened, there are just new pokemon to slow them down, but overall they will wreck the metagame alone.
As of weather, i think the abusers should first get looked out followed by the inducers, and thats for every weather. In gen 4 i hated Sand abusers and in gen 5 that anger only grew with dory. Now he isn't broken, i can take him in out in the sand without losing a pokemon on many of the teams i was testing, but it is just one more reason to add to re-analyzing the weather itself. Most people are crying about rain since they don't have to use rain dance anymore, but it is still just as broken as it was before. Hail is for stall teams, but overall not a huge threat, and haven't seen a good Sun team yet, so i will test one soon so i have some input.
Point- Look at kingdra, kabutops, Dory, Chomp etc before looking at Politoed and TTar. Also, re-analyze what WEATHER (all 4) do to the metagame, several people are too accepting of it to really think of a metagame without it. I am not saying ban it, just to look at if it is overcentralizing in its counters and checks and if it is really healthy to continue using.
Edit: as for MH users against Darkrai, if they become a problem he can easily hold something besides psychic to handle them, or even drop the focus blast (which i suggest) to handle both his counters effectively without lowering his sweeping potential
Shaymin-s is still faster than any none scarf/speed-boosted pokemon and with air slash/seed flare alone can wreck EVERY pokemon. The only pokemon that may survive are still and then he carries earth power to handle them. If he is running a defensive set (leechsub) then priority counters will get destroyed when trying ot handle him One on One. I haven't found any true counters to Shaymin-s
Darkrai had counters in the previous game in the forms of scarf primeape/heracross or sleep talk heracross(beast), yet he was still banned to ubers why, unless you ran a specific counter to him, he would destroy teams alone. In this gen, with roobushin most people think darkrai is still no threat, you take a sleep hit, and then switch and hit with SE mach right? nope darkrai has surprising bulk to survive a mach punch, and my darkrai holds chople berry(i think) which weakens fighting hits, and has psychic(lame right) to counter them with. Even without nasty plot he still takes out 2-3 pokemon through sleep and KOing before dying.
Overall view, they are still broken and nothing about them has been truly weakened, there are just new pokemon to slow them down, but overall they will wreck the metagame alone.
As of weather, i think the abusers should first get looked out followed by the inducers, and thats for every weather. In gen 4 i hated Sand abusers and in gen 5 that anger only grew with dory. Now he isn't broken, i can take him in out in the sand without losing a pokemon on many of the teams i was testing, but it is just one more reason to add to re-analyzing the weather itself. Most people are crying about rain since they don't have to use rain dance anymore, but it is still just as broken as it was before. Hail is for stall teams, but overall not a huge threat, and haven't seen a good Sun team yet, so i will test one soon so i have some input.
Point- Look at kingdra, kabutops, Dory, Chomp etc before looking at Politoed and TTar. Also, re-analyze what WEATHER (all 4) do to the metagame, several people are too accepting of it to really think of a metagame without it. I am not saying ban it, just to look at if it is overcentralizing in its counters and checks and if it is really healthy to continue using.
Edit: as for MH users against Darkrai, if they become a problem he can easily hold something besides psychic to handle them, or even drop the focus blast (which i suggest) to handle both his counters effectively without lowering his sweeping potential
^^^ Skymin does not out-speed all non-Scarf pokemon, and it does not OHKO all of them with STAB and Earth Power. Where did you get the idea that it does?
That said, I still think it's broken.
Also, rain can be dealt with. It's just more difficult than with normal sweepers. They're like sweepers on crack.
That said, I still think it's broken.
Also, rain can be dealt with. It's just more difficult than with normal sweepers. They're like sweepers on crack.
Not every none scarf pokemon the exceptions are ninjask, jolteon, aerodactyl, crobat and electrode (outside of uber pokemon).
I didn't mean STAB and Earth Power can OHKO everyone, i meant it can take them one on one. No one can safely come on in Shaymin-S since it can seed flare lower their Sdef and then air flinch them to death. But hey you already see its broken no need for more details :)
Rain is more difficult, i have trouble with rain teams when using my rain team lol. I am saying just look at weather overall, i am not saying rain is more dangerous and it alone needs to be dealt with, i mean just to look at all four weathers and people think it is too centralizing for the metagame, like having specific counters for every weather on any team, it may need to have a clause or its own tier or something.
I don't think that rain is broken because it doesn't guarantee a win. It gives you a better chance at winning, sure. But so does using OU 'mons as opposed to NU (generally speaking).
Good players with a "normal" team can still beat bad players who use a rain team. It's not a matter of them beating everything else in the metagame or of them being completely luck-based and un-controllable like Inconsistent.
Rain is strong, powerful, and tough to face, but I still don't believe it is broken.
Oh oh, Draco Meteor does 2 hit ko Scizor. I was thinking about that since I didn't know that but if Deoxys-A can 2 hit ko with Psycho Boost does Latios...and it 2 hit koes 248 hp/252 Atk/10 Spd Choice Band Scizor in OU. In Ubers, Scizors invest more in their special defense but rarely in OU. Draco Meteor can potentially 2 hit ko max hp/min SDef with Stealth Rock and only really special defensive Tyranitar can survive 2 hit ko from Surf. Scizor's Choice Band Bullet Punch only does an average 69.54% so unless it's weakened, unlike Latias Latios can beat it easily with almost any move that isn't Trick (Dragon Pulse still 2 hit koes Standard Choice Band Scizor with Stealth Rock. Hp Fire is fairly pointless except for Nattorei).
The only real advantage Sazandora has over this is a Fire move which will easily melt Scizor, Forretress, Nattorei. If only Latios had a strong Fire move...still, in all other respects Latios completely outclasses Sazandora except Cheer Up Outrage, U-Turn, and Fire moves. Blissey has trouble with Latios's Trick which while not entirely making Blissey useless will be annoying and on occasion Psycho Shock can destroy it easily. Psychic typing really helps against Mach Punches as does the fact that Choice Scarf Tyranitar is dying out for the most part which means you don't get the pleasure of dying to Crunch/Pursuit coin flip. Latios outruns and easily 2 hit koes pretty much all variants except really special defensive ones.
Timid Calm Mind Life Orb Grass knot ohkoes Tyranitar just for fun.
Latios is pretty broken as well, a 130 power Draco Meteor and such fun tools with an actual good typing for this generation. This thing is beastly.
I mean nothing guarantees a win, yet we still have things put into ubers. I don't know if using "bad" players is good, i mean bad players would lose to a decent player even if they were using only ubers. That doesn't make rain any less dangerous. I mean manaphy doesn't guarantee a win, but it gives such a large advantage to the user it will hopefully get banned.
Rain is good but like i said i personally don't have a problem against it, i can handle it without any using a weather team, but if i dont place counters for manaphy and kingdra they will sweep me, but ONLY in the rain. If i don't place counters and horseshoes, Dory and Chomp will run me over in the sand but only in the sand. The weather itself gives major abilities to some pokemon, and lowers the usage of others.
No, it doesnt. If Manaphy is running any bulk at all, Draco Meteor will not KO, and he'll retaliate with a +3 Ice Beam.
Rain is most likely not broken. Most ways of dealing with it require the player to use solid options such as TTar, Hippowdon, Nattorei, and so on. These are hardly detrimental in other matchups, like running Haze 'mons to deal with Inconsistent. Perhaps rain is overcentralizing, but it's not inherently overpowered.
The sweepers, on the other hand, might be.
The sweepers, on the other hand, might be.
Not just rain but all weather, and overcentralizing is a problem. Who wants to run nattorei on every team just so they don't get ran over by rain teams. Garchomp was overcentralizing not overpowered in gen 4 and that got him banned as an example
Rest means you can set up on some 2HKOs, while with Recover you can't. Example:
Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs +1 252/0 CM Manaphy: 51.49% - 60.89%
Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs +2 252/0 CM Manaphy: 38.61% - 45.54%
Recover would mean you can't get to +2 without dying the next turn, but with Rest, you can alternate between Calm Mind and Recover to slowly boost your way up.
My apologies if I'm asking this in the wrong thread, but how many people are usually involved in the suspect test after reaching the set rating?
To stay on topic, I feel that Manaphy is a bit too powerful for OU now that TG is +3; and this is coming from a Manaphy user. Manaphy becomes nigh unstoppable once the opponent's Nattorei is KOed and TSpikes are set; the things that it can't KO can't KO it in the rain, so Manaphy can stall would be walls like Burungeru and Water Absorb Vaporeon with Toxic damage. Most faster pokemon fail to OHKO, but in the rain with a TG or 2, Manaphy can OHKO everything faster than it.
Darkrai's speed, high special attack, relative bulk, and Dark Void make it too powerful for OU IMO. With the change to sleep, one usually has to sacrifice a pokemon, switch a rest-talker in, or run a pokemon with an ability that cures or is immune to sleep. No other sleep user can simultaneously outspeed and 1-2HKO would be counters.
To stay on topic, I feel that Manaphy is a bit too powerful for OU now that TG is +3; and this is coming from a Manaphy user. Manaphy becomes nigh unstoppable once the opponent's Nattorei is KOed and TSpikes are set; the things that it can't KO can't KO it in the rain, so Manaphy can stall would be walls like Burungeru and Water Absorb Vaporeon with Toxic damage. Most faster pokemon fail to OHKO, but in the rain with a TG or 2, Manaphy can OHKO everything faster than it.
Darkrai's speed, high special attack, relative bulk, and Dark Void make it too powerful for OU IMO. With the change to sleep, one usually has to sacrifice a pokemon, switch a rest-talker in, or run a pokemon with an ability that cures or is immune to sleep. No other sleep user can simultaneously outspeed and 1-2HKO would be counters.
It's wouldn't be odd to have anywhere from 15 to 50 members (or more) weighing in on the suspects.
Seems like a lot to me. As of now only two people have >1500.
I think we possibly MAY have more, seeing as this is the first test and we'd want as many legit opinions as possible, but then again, I wouldn't know. Stage 3-2 had 132 voters, lol, while after that we had about 40 each, and Mence had 9 (TOO SMALL!!)
Regardless of voter size, the one think I really think is that we have to hustle more on this shit (granted, this vote is coming relatively quick considering when we opened the server, but it could actually have been quicker).
I doubt opinions amongst the top players are much different now than they were a week ago for instance.
if it were 50 voters I'd be happy as I could eek my way in :P
I doubt opinions amongst the top players are much different now than they were a week ago for instance.
if it were 50 voters I'd be happy as I could eek my way in :P
Wow, that's way less than I expected. I doubt that I can get 250 or so more points in the next 3 days, but I'll try my hardest. I'd really like for the weather starters to stay and break the omnipresent monotony of sandstorm. It's nice to see some variety in the weather after the last 2 generations.
A little bit off topic: here's a read (game theory) that's relavant to suspect Testing (not Pokemon).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame_analysis
Read it if you're interested. If you're not interested, read it anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame_analysis
Read it if you're interested. If you're not interested, read it anyway.
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