-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
Terakion's problem is not to switch in, his problem is in setting up- sure, he switches in on Nattorei's spikes, but he can't set up or else he'll be smashed by a Gyro Ball/Power Whip/Thunder Wave. Same applies to TTar, Blissey as well(Although no one is gonna keep blissey in on it anyway, but you get the idea).
Also I'm not sure if Jolly LO Tera can KO max Def Natt with an unboosted CC.
Also I'm not sure if Jolly LO Tera can KO max Def Natt with an unboosted CC.
yes, but when looking at the viability of counters you should assume direct switch. Was only pointing it out because some people seem to think that if you switch in tek it comes with a free +2 instead of a free setup turn that gives +2... meaning that tek has to outspeed and OHKO the opponent with a single +2 move, or 2 +0 moves.
Edit: also, there are a good number of pokes that outspeed tek, so he's a pretty easy revenge. He can also be pretty reliably killed if you predict the boost or move and switch in something like starmie on a cc or sd (just an example). The only pokes from sand that you can't speed-kill are dory or agi landlos.
It does 85.7-101.1%, so there is a small chance, made better with residual damage or, if you run RP, Adamant. But bear in mind that due to their usefulness countering Drizzle many Natts will be running balanced or SpDef biased spreads, so you should be able to OHKO a lot of them as the typical 252/120 neutral nature is a certain OHKO for Jolly Tera.
Where have I said or implied otherwise?
Also, I agree with capefeather even though I guess I'm one of the ones getting sucked into stupid pointless discussions.
WTF are you talking about? Honestly do you even play this game? Of course a counter needs to be able to handle +2 attacks. That's the only way it's called a counter.
Every calculation I did was based on the assumption that you come in after something dies or something you can scare away like Ttar or blissey. Then you SD on the turn they switch to their counter. No one assumes a double switch to the pokemon and its counter on the same turn. That's not how countering works.
And you'd be surprised how often terrakion can come in. It doesn't always have to be a resisted attack. 90/90/90 defenses are extremely good and in sandstorm it can come easily on any non SE special attack. Boltbeam, fire attacks, ghost attacks, dark attacks are all over the place. And honestly GG if you come in on a dark attack and get an instant +1 attack.
I wouldn't be surprised, as I particularly like him. I was just making sure the counters weren't being misrepresented as I saw threat of it in the Bronzong example people were arguing about. I'm not saying anyone has said anything stupid or wrong, just making sure since you guys were getting close to the line (ie you not admitting that bronzong's gyroball does much more than eq, and threatened to kill non LO sets).
Also, the insults don't become a normal conversation. They also fail to make their point, as you agree with what I'm saying, and I agree with what you're saying.
Edit: also ice, I never implicated you directly xD or anyone for that matter... and i did so because it was a general warning and not meant to disprove anything that was said.
this meta would be much better w/o manaphy + to a lesser extent kingdra those are the 1s that actually break rain.
Drizzle, Drought (on politoed and ninetails), and Sand Strength were HUGE mistakes from gamefreak this gen. IMO the metagame would be a lot better without them (except in ubers). Just my opinion.
Are you kidding? Randorosu is more powerful than Dory (both have Swords Dance), and can get more speed than Dory with Rock Polish. Rand can use Hidden Power effectively due to 115 Sp Atk. It has some bulk so you can't simply revenge-kill it with Roob or something.
When I make a team, I worry about Rand much more than Doryuuzu.
Care to, you know, actually explain your thoughts instead od bsing about how you hate the meta? There are quite a few of us, myself included who have no problem with how the meta has shaped.
As I have posted before (given that every point that I make is convienently ignored), rain is manageable and not overcentralising.When battling on PO Rain appears perhaps 30 % of the time on a good day. Recently it has even been replaced by Sand in terms of prominence.
Everybody is complaining about the brokenness of rain and how it destroys everything. Hows about you actually look for a mon that counters rain and complements your team. Victreebel is a prime example. In Rain, Sucker Punch outspeeds and hits opposing pokemon hard (as well as OHKOing Latios) taking them out if they're slightly weakened, also resisting opposing priority. As I run a Sun team, In Sun it outspeeds and KO's with Leaf Blade/Leaf Storm and still KO's last ditch priority users.
My final question to you and it has been brought up many times by mmyself and others and never been addressed is this. "Why is a metagame in which weather features prominently a bad thing?"
Every time a new generation is introduced, pokemon and strategies had to adapt. When 3rd Gen came out, people had to adapt to the emergence of Slalmence and Tyranitar, and the fact that stall was no longer extremely dominating. When the Physical-Special split occurred, people had to adapt to the fact that pokemon like Gengar and Alakazam had lost some of their viability, and that Stall had to deal with Infernape, and all Physical Tyranitar's, as well as the new TM list. When Platinum came out, the metagame had to adapt to the emergence of the Rotom Forms, Bullet Punch Scizor, and Outraging Salamence.
Why then, can we not accept that Gamefreak has introduced a series of pokemon and abilities and pokemon that give a large benefit to weather teams? Are we as Smogoners so unwilling to change that we will bring the banhammer down upon anything that destroy our idea of "the proper metagme"? By adapting to previous metagame changes we have proven that we can adapt to change and flourish in the creating of a distinct metagame for each generation.
As a final point, while I do not agree with the banning of any weather at this point I do recognize that it could be deemed broken in the future. At this point however, the metagame has existed for aound six weeks (I believe). People are still realizing what pokemon and playstyles are viable and how best to abuse them. I see zero purpose in banning any style of weather until people have had the chance to adapt to the new metagame and become accustommed to playing in it. With all the changes to the game in this generation it is my opinion that we should at least wait for a few testing periods in order to allow the metagame to somewhat settle before weather should be brought up for discussion. It is simply the fear of the unkown (or in this case the slightly known).
If you had the patience to actually read all of this I thank you for your dedication in ensuring that every potential suspect is at least given the chance to defend itself (Rain being the most prominent of these suspects).
um, i was not talking about rain itself if ppl would have read my post on pg 44 or when i re-posted it on 49 my standpoint would be clear that i'm in favor of banning the abusers that actually break it rather than make all rain playstyles suffer for the doings of rain offense alone.
edit: b4 any1 complains that "oh it's 4 paragraphs long i'm too lazy assed to read it" since i had to wait on a ban to wear off b4 posting on this thread i had a lot 2 say + since the ban was caused by reach0 complaining that i made a second post to respond to a post that wasn't up till after i had made my post deal. also the i on 49 goes into more detail due to something i edited in.
Awright just because Im bored Ill post my opinion.
I think rain balances a bit the excessive abuse of sand.
Drizzle means overpowered sweepers with little to no set up, mainly Kingdra, Ludicolo, Latios, Tornelos, Voltolos, Dragonite, and the like. Sand, on the other hand, just has a small number of all out sweepers (Landros, Garchomp, Doryuuzu), but has a clusterfuck of pokemon that love sand to stall like there's no tomorrow (Gliscor, Skarm, Nattorei..anything that's rock/ground/steel and has access to residual damage, in other words).
What I'm trying to poin out is that they both enable ways to deal massive damage without the need of a real strategy: Spamming waterfall/hydro pump/thunder or Earthquake, stealth rock, and roar). Then again, most rain abusers are really easy to revenge kill or set up on them, provided there's not rain in play (which I'll cover in the next paragraph). Sand stallers can keep on stalling even without sand.
Then again you guys really need to think outside the box. Has anyone even considered running random pokemon with sunny day/hail? I hardly ever consider weather teams a challenge because I carry Hail on my Burungeru (come in the obvious water move and troll them) and Erufuun (Mischeavus Heart Sunny Day). There's quite a lot of ways to counter a weather team. Especially by using pokemon that you hardly ever consider, thus giving the metagame way more diversity and viable strategies.
edit 2: it'd be lovely is someone were to read this. >_>
I think rain balances a bit the excessive abuse of sand.
Drizzle means overpowered sweepers with little to no set up, mainly Kingdra, Ludicolo, Latios, Tornelos, Voltolos, Dragonite, and the like. Sand, on the other hand, just has a small number of all out sweepers (Landros, Garchomp, Doryuuzu), but has a clusterfuck of pokemon that love sand to stall like there's no tomorrow (Gliscor, Skarm, Nattorei..anything that's rock/ground/steel and has access to residual damage, in other words).
What I'm trying to poin out is that they both enable ways to deal massive damage without the need of a real strategy: Spamming waterfall/hydro pump/thunder or Earthquake, stealth rock, and roar). Then again, most rain abusers are really easy to revenge kill or set up on them, provided there's not rain in play (which I'll cover in the next paragraph). Sand stallers can keep on stalling even without sand.
Then again you guys really need to think outside the box. Has anyone even considered running random pokemon with sunny day/hail? I hardly ever consider weather teams a challenge because I carry Hail on my Burungeru (come in the obvious water move and troll them) and Erufuun (Mischeavus Heart Sunny Day). There's quite a lot of ways to counter a weather team. Especially by using pokemon that you hardly ever consider, thus giving the metagame way more diversity and viable strategies.
edit 2: it'd be lovely is someone were to read this. >_>
Things that can counter rain:
1.Weather inducers
2.Specialized team
3.Other weather teams
You run a Sun team,therefore it's easier for you to handle Rain.
So,what I get from you is: "I run a sun team and have no trouble with rain,therefore rain is not broken."
Wtf?
I tried giving my Erufuun Sunny Day,but it never works.
It's too hard to pull off.
The turn you use Sunny Day,you have to be 100% sure nothing will happen to your mon. Erufuun can easily die to an Ice Beam or can eat a Toxic and then he's useless.
It's not viable if you can't abuse the weather yourself or if your mons can't survive long enough.
It falls under "Gimmicky specialized counters".
It sucks.
Erufuun can actually be pretty bulky with max hp and special defense. Unless you're really afraid of other MH there's no reason tu run speed EVs. It's not hard tu pull off as it only takes a turn, and most people switch to a counter as soon as they see Erufuun, fearing switcheroo/stun spore/whatever. How is it not viable, though? You may not abuse the weather, but you pretty much shut down the opposing team.
Strange Eru didnt work for you, it worked amazingly well for me.
Ya...until Politoed shows up again and Erufuun can't really do much to scare it off.
Ice Beams also make it harder as Erufuun's only recovery comes from Leech Seed and Leftovers.
u actually have part of the realtionship backwards sand is used 2 check rain.
Sub on the switch, proceed to subseed if you expect Drizzletoed back in.
I'm sorry you feel that way, clearly you didn't read the other 90% of the post. As for your list of things that counter rain, you forgot a point I listed in my post: "specialized" pokemon. As I said, Victreebel does reasonably well against Rain. i am certain there are other pokemon that are also able to handle rain similarly. usually this would be where you say that it is useless otherwise so the thing that people need to do is find the one that fits your team best. You list "weather inducers" and "weather teams" as if they were bad things since only they can stop rain. If you had read my post, you would have seen my little sermon about why maybe that isn't a bad thing and perhaps weather is and should be central to this generation.
Now please don't respond to this until you've actually read my previous post. i won't continue to restate myself.
It is bad,because everyone has to run them.
Everyone may have to run them but not necessarily to counter rain. As I've said, this generation is based around weather and we have to adapt to that ideally without banning things. I Rain is the strongest weather right now does that meaan it should be broken? No, it means that teams need to be prepared for it. It is the same as in 4th Gen when every team was prepared with a check for Scizor and heatran so that they didn't get swept.
Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots. it is called centralisation which is necssary for a metagme as outlined by Doug and others. Right now Rain is centralising, not over centralising and in my opinion not overpowered. Is weather overcentalising? Perhaps, but that is far too braod a group to call overcentralising as it encompasses at least 6 different playstyles (4 offenses and 2 stalls).
Please tell me, how is your "carrying 3 counters to rain" any different from 4th Gens idea of carrying checks to most dangerous pokemon which most certainly took up at least three spots. it is called centralisation which is necssary for a metagme as outlined by Doug and others. Right now Rain is centralising, not over centralising and in my opinion not overpowered. Is weather overcentalising? Perhaps, but that is far too braod a group to call overcentralising as it encompasses at least 6 different playstyles (4 offenses and 2 stalls).
- Status