I dont understand..... how is adding a good Bulky Water like Rotom-W, a good Bulky Hazard Settter like Nattorei or just a good check in Birijion severly hampering your team? Its like saying running a spinner to support Urgamoth in order to check the strategy of using SR(and also running spinners/wall breakers in order to not get yourself raped by stall) severly hampers your team, so entry hazards are broken.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Name anything else aside from Nattorei,Birijion,Rotom-W,and Tentacruel that can counter rain.
strange how if kingdra finds itself vs chomp out of rain kingdra is screwed.
ludicolo or kabutops or toxicroak vs. dory in sand, deaded x3
manaphy vs. boltolosu, fried sea sprite
croak vs chomp, dead frog thing
toad vs gengar or boltolosu, froggy go bye bye
+ all of those poke have other uses to:
gengar-trick locking, insane special based damage, + great synergy w/ my core
boltolosu-fastest mh taunt (stall breaking aid anyone), w/ hp ice perfect coverage, + great speed just over the 110 tier.
dory/chomp-members of my team core enough said.
Can you guys be consistent on an argument? You keep throwing around the word "counter" but when those Pokemon are suggested they - suddenly - no longer counter rain because of some situation that a player with half a brain would not even allow them to be put in the first place. Either those Pokemon, whom are very common, are counters to rain, or they are checks to certain rain sweepers. Or they are neither. Choose.
it gets focus blast.
edit: and who uses lanturn anymore.
They don't counter rain, that is why there is a problem
there is a problem because you are making 1. not everything needs a set of 100% hard counters, checks are effectively counters that can't switch into everything an opposing poke has but some can come in on predicted moves ex. while bronzong can't switch into mence's entire set due to fire blast if you can trick it into using outrage zong walls it easily and kos w/ gyro ball (before anyone argues i'm using a former uber a NINE person voting pool was a bad idea + was a major bias risk).
But if these pokes can't really slow down rain at all, how can you call them checks? You can't just name a poke that resists one move a rain sweeper uses and call it a "check" with the caveat that it doesn't really do anything besides take 1/2 damage from one move
If the big 3 rain sweepers are banned for whatever reason (Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo) then there are a few Swift Swimmers that can replace them.
Floatzel: Seriously underrated. Fastest Swift Swimmer and still outruns most things outside of rain that don't double speed. Able to Bulk Up and either pass and/or attack. 105 base attack is pretty good and has Waterfall/Crunch/Ice Fang/Brick Break. Waterfall does massive damage to Landlos, Doryuzu, and Gliscor and ohkoes the first two without rain (and is faster)and can ohko offensive Gliscor and almost ohko defensive Gliscors after a Bulk Up with Life Orb even without rain. With Adamant Nature and Focus Punch, it can 1-Shot Nattorei with Focus Punch if it switches in if it is max hp/mind def (and kill it with another move if it has defense). Focus Punch is situational but it can work since usually Nattorei would probably never hesitate to switch in on Floatzel (I don't know, Floatzel is a rare Pokemon and who would expect it to pull of a random Focus Punch?). Brick Break will also deal enough that Nattorei is going to be pretty weak against another Swift Swimmer. Burungeru is handled by Crunch and even with Floatzel's shit special defense Burungeru is not particularly threatening to it while after Bulk Up, Life Orb Crunch does over 90% to max hp/~200ish defense Burungeru (max hp/max defense still takes over 70 and is 2 hit koed).
Qwilfish: Fastest Destiny Bond in the game in rain outside Custap Berry. Swords Dance to boost it's attacks and it isn't terrible. Resistances to common priority Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and okayish defenses means it isn't afraid of priority users usually (except maybe stabbed Sucker Punches and potentially Toxicroak although Sucker Punch is only a 2 hit ko). Poison may be a meh attacking type but it smashes grass pokes not Nattorei and the chance of inflicting Toxic type damage is pretty awesome. And it clears Toxic Spikes! Return can go over D-Bond if you really need to hit Toxicroak and it doesn't really have many attacking options really. Maybe Explosion or Thunderwave (what you want to be paralyzing instead of attacking I don't know).
Gorebyss/Omastar: Shell Break is deadly and Gorebyss can Baton Pass it. And behind Screens, it is DEADLY. If priority is your only way to stop it and it is behind screen, you're dead. If Nattorei is your only way to stop it, you're dead once Nattorei is gone or Nattorei is weakened and they pull off Shell Break. While it is a bit more support than expected, it isn't super super hard to pull of a screen and few use Brick Brick and behind Screen, Gorebyss can eat Power Whip from standard (non attack boosting Nattorei) with half it's health left (and still has about 30 after -1) and take less than half from Breloom Mach Punch...-1. Omastar isn't quite as good at Shell Breaking (can't pass, can't take priority nearly as well without Screen, etc) but it might be useful for other things as well and as a just straight out attacker or something. And you could also pull off double shell breaking where one weakens the team and then all of a sudden you pull off a second one and win when their counters are so weak, they can't take a second one (it is hard to take one, let alone two if they manage the time and -1 def without dying).
Poliwrath: Swift Swim Poliwrath is pretty anti Tyranitar. It can use Bulk Up or Belly Drum (feel the terror of Swift Swim Poliwrath. Without Ditto or something faster, you are just kerplunkered dead). It keeps Tyranitar wary of switching in and Nattorei isn't too thrilled either because after a Bulk Up, Brick Break is doing lots of damage, enough to put in kill range of something else and if it's carrying Life Orb and just a tiny bit other damage, can be ohkoed if it's min def after Bulk Up. Belly Drum obviously wins. He's fast and can do Sub Punch and Sub Bulk Up or SubBulkPunch which hurts. It can also use the shaky Hypnosis to attempt to put something to sleep which can be useful if it hits.
Tsunbea: It's an...Ice type and can beat Nattorei with Swords Dance Super Power and is pretty strong. Fighting weakness stinks and it isn't particularly defensive or able to take advantage of a water stab but beating Nattorei, Birijion, Toxicroak, etc is cool.
Still, I'd rather ban permanent weather than Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo (they aren't THAT good to be banned from OU although Kingdra and Ludicolo can have niches in Uber and maybe, maybe Kabutops). But Rain still remains a fairly strong competitor. The existence of Swift Swim Poliwrath however does raise some concerns...
Floatzel: Seriously underrated. Fastest Swift Swimmer and still outruns most things outside of rain that don't double speed. Able to Bulk Up and either pass and/or attack. 105 base attack is pretty good and has Waterfall/Crunch/Ice Fang/Brick Break. Waterfall does massive damage to Landlos, Doryuzu, and Gliscor and ohkoes the first two without rain (and is faster)and can ohko offensive Gliscor and almost ohko defensive Gliscors after a Bulk Up with Life Orb even without rain. With Adamant Nature and Focus Punch, it can 1-Shot Nattorei with Focus Punch if it switches in if it is max hp/mind def (and kill it with another move if it has defense). Focus Punch is situational but it can work since usually Nattorei would probably never hesitate to switch in on Floatzel (I don't know, Floatzel is a rare Pokemon and who would expect it to pull of a random Focus Punch?). Brick Break will also deal enough that Nattorei is going to be pretty weak against another Swift Swimmer. Burungeru is handled by Crunch and even with Floatzel's shit special defense Burungeru is not particularly threatening to it while after Bulk Up, Life Orb Crunch does over 90% to max hp/~200ish defense Burungeru (max hp/max defense still takes over 70 and is 2 hit koed).
Qwilfish: Fastest Destiny Bond in the game in rain outside Custap Berry. Swords Dance to boost it's attacks and it isn't terrible. Resistances to common priority Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and okayish defenses means it isn't afraid of priority users usually (except maybe stabbed Sucker Punches and potentially Toxicroak although Sucker Punch is only a 2 hit ko). Poison may be a meh attacking type but it smashes grass pokes not Nattorei and the chance of inflicting Toxic type damage is pretty awesome. And it clears Toxic Spikes! Return can go over D-Bond if you really need to hit Toxicroak and it doesn't really have many attacking options really. Maybe Explosion or Thunderwave (what you want to be paralyzing instead of attacking I don't know).
Gorebyss/Omastar: Shell Break is deadly and Gorebyss can Baton Pass it. And behind Screens, it is DEADLY. If priority is your only way to stop it and it is behind screen, you're dead. If Nattorei is your only way to stop it, you're dead once Nattorei is gone or Nattorei is weakened and they pull off Shell Break. While it is a bit more support than expected, it isn't super super hard to pull of a screen and few use Brick Brick and behind Screen, Gorebyss can eat Power Whip from standard (non attack boosting Nattorei) with half it's health left (and still has about 30 after -1) and take less than half from Breloom Mach Punch...-1. Omastar isn't quite as good at Shell Breaking (can't pass, can't take priority nearly as well without Screen, etc) but it might be useful for other things as well and as a just straight out attacker or something. And you could also pull off double shell breaking where one weakens the team and then all of a sudden you pull off a second one and win when their counters are so weak, they can't take a second one (it is hard to take one, let alone two if they manage the time and -1 def without dying).
Poliwrath: Swift Swim Poliwrath is pretty anti Tyranitar. It can use Bulk Up or Belly Drum (feel the terror of Swift Swim Poliwrath. Without Ditto or something faster, you are just kerplunkered dead). It keeps Tyranitar wary of switching in and Nattorei isn't too thrilled either because after a Bulk Up, Brick Break is doing lots of damage, enough to put in kill range of something else and if it's carrying Life Orb and just a tiny bit other damage, can be ohkoed if it's min def after Bulk Up. Belly Drum obviously wins. He's fast and can do Sub Punch and Sub Bulk Up or SubBulkPunch which hurts. It can also use the shaky Hypnosis to attempt to put something to sleep which can be useful if it hits.
Tsunbea: It's an...Ice type and can beat Nattorei with Swords Dance Super Power and is pretty strong. Fighting weakness stinks and it isn't particularly defensive or able to take advantage of a water stab but beating Nattorei, Birijion, Toxicroak, etc is cool.
Still, I'd rather ban permanent weather than Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo (they aren't THAT good to be banned from OU although Kingdra and Ludicolo can have niches in Uber and maybe, maybe Kabutops). But Rain still remains a fairly strong competitor. The existence of Swift Swim Poliwrath however does raise some concerns...
Well, he did say /in rain/, where, I'm assuming, Qwilfish outspeeds them?
Yes, same base speed as Kingdra. Which means 538 or 590 spd while Gengar/Froslass would max out at 525 with +spd nature Choice Scarf.
I missed Ice Punch on Floatzel. But all you really need are Waterfall, Brick Break, Crunch really. If Multi-Scale is up, you're never killing Dragonite and being able to kill Burungeru is somewhat more useful since other water pokes could potentially smack Dragonite but few can actually do much to Burungeru and unlike Dragonite, he doesn't do all that much back to you usually.
I just learned Qwilfish could learn Bounce (yeah, not many options in that last slot outside of D-Bond, Return, Explosion, or Bounce really) which could hit fighters named Toxicroak and Birijion as well.
With +2 Jolly nature, he ohkoes min/min Kingdra with Poison Jab and outspeeds. Although he'll need to get that Swords Dance in and if it is more defensive, it will survive although Kingdra won't be koing back unless Qwilfish is pretty weakened.
Well, barring ridiculous things like Baton Pass, I missed that.
Which raises the question of how?
Cuz it was in the part that I quoted.
Oh I was talking to myself. Sorry.
Back to the main discussion... Anorith in rain is actually ok. Terrible compared to Kingdra and Ludi and Kabutops. But if for some reason they got banned, I would totally use Anorith.
And throughout this argument I have been leaning toward a Drizzle ban. But I've actually been swayed... been twisted... been converted. I've been brought over to the dark side. Now I side with people who say we should ban the abusers. dont hate me
I wonder if Poliwrath would be good enough to be considered for a proactive ban as well then. I mean, Kabutops is and Poliwrath is fairly strong as well, and insane with Belly Drum. And maybe Qwilfish because of Destiny Bond and the power of +2 Poison Jabs. Possibly Floatzel cause it axes a lot of sand pokes and can actually naturally outspeed Landlos and Garchomp (okay, that one is worthy of considering Ice Punch for). I mean if Ludicolo can be turned into a terror with 70 base attack and 90 special attack, surely these will as well. Gorebyss/Huntail for being Shell Breakers and able to pass as there is pretty much no way to kill them behind a screen (go Mew) before they murder you.
I don't see what banning Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops is going to fix. It'll just get slightly more creative in the ways to dismember you. Permanent rain is still a problem.
I don't see what banning Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops is going to fix. It'll just get slightly more creative in the ways to dismember you. Permanent rain is still a problem.
Proactive is BAD. We ban things after they're suspect tested, not to get a jump on Pokemon that may or may not be broken to try to save a negligible amount of time.
The logic is simple.
At one extreme, if every rain abuser besides Luvdisc is banned, rain is clearly nowhere near broken.
At the other extreme, if no rain abusers are banned, rain is clearly a suspect to be broken.
As a result, it's inevitable that the banning of top rain threats would eventually lead to a point between the two extreme where rain is a threat, but not broken.
At the moment, we're ESTIMATING that the critical point would be with banning those trio, but by using the suspect testing, we'll actually know for sure when they're actually tested.
So...what we're going to do is ban pretty much every Swift Swimmer (aka Swift Swim Ban essentially because who gives a darn about Luvdisc and Lumineon)? That is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous to ban every Swift Swimmer to keep Drizzle. Drizzle is what makes most of them broken (although I do wonder at the awesomeness of Rain Dance Belly Drum Poliwrath who'll still be awesome since no one in their right mind would attempt to switch an auto-weather on it).
There is no way that if things like Ludicolo/Kingdra/Kabutops are going for permanent Swift Swim, that things like Poliwrath wouldn't as well because there'll need to be replacements for those three and Poliwrath and friends fit the bill and it will become scary overcentralizing with...Poliwrath/Qwilfish/Floatzel most likely. Don't laugh. I doubt anyone (who hadn't played ubers) would have predicted the power of Kabutops and Ludicolo in permanent rain and become so ridiculous that they're actually considered broken. I mean, a poke with 70 base atk and 90 base satk? Le gasp! But rain made it into a horror.
The only reason people don't see the danger in the next round is that the other Swift Swimmers weren't used in comparison and they don't know the awesome horrors of Poliwrath/Floatzel/Qwilfish. Again, if freaking Swords Dance Ludicolo off of 262 attack is viable, so is Bulk Up and Swords Dance Floatzel and Qwilfish and Poliwrath although Belly Drum fights with Bulk Up for slot. Poliwrath has the fighting stab.
And if it is proven that Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops are uber (to keep Drizzle), we'll probably have yet another extended metagame with Sand/Rain where Floatzel and Qwilfish are declared uber horrors (lol lol lol lol but they are extremely vicious in Rain which is what is being underestimated).
I agree, that would be quite ridiculous indeed. Which is probably why I didn't suggest we do that.
That's ALL covered by the suspect testing system.
You're worried about not banning all of the broken ones? Well, once the trio are out of the way, we'll be able to see if the other ones are worth nominating. Even in your extreme scenario, where everything besides Luvdisc and Lumineon is actually broken, the suspect testing would still be able to find and remove every single one.
In the more realistic worst-case scenario that the trio, and MAYBE 1-2 unseen threats are deemed uber, it really wouldn't be much trouble to suspect test them at all, and for the reasons I've previously stated, would ultimately have greater benefits than either the Drizzle or Swift Swim ban.
SO would we ban Kingdra or SS kingdra? B/c kingdra is still a viable poke outside of drizzle. Very common in gen 4 even w/out the rain. Dragon typing w/ no ice weakness and nice stats make kingdra a great poke and I don't think it's fair that it get's sent to ubers where it won't be used when it's easily viable within the OU meta.
It sounds nice at first, but the problem is that you can also say that, with the same logic, Dory shouldn't be suspect because it's a strong but not overcentralizing in a non-sandstorm metagame.
Basically, the problem is when you say "viable within the OU meta", you're talking about a metagame without perma-rain, which ISN'T our current OU meta. Instead of seeing if a pokemon is broken in our current metagame, banning Drizzle is basically altering our metagame so our previously unbroken pokes would remain unbroken.
Finally, there's no such thing as "it's not fair for Kingdra". If a Pokemon came into a metagame that basically gives it everything it needs to overcentralize everything, then it's broken. Kingdra doesn't get a "get-out-of-jail" card because of it's "acceptable behavior" during generation IV. That is, no matter how nice and unbroken Kingdra was before, if it's broken in our new metagame, that's that. In Pokemon, track records don't matter; only the present circumstance do.
Edit:
Oh yeah, and I forgot to address, banning Swift Swim falls under the "ban aspect X of pokemon Y in order to keep it broken" slippery slope. Basically, we can't just take away a pokemon's strengths until it's not broken. We have to ban it completely, or else, we'll just end up restricting any broken pokemon until they become non-broken.
If you ban the 6+useable Swift Swimmers (I can't even remember everything that gets Swift Swim), you might as well ban Swift Swim period, which I don't want to happen because Swift Swim is a very fun, not extreme anger inducing (like permanent), legitimate strategy and it is the permanent weather that makes them broken.
How can it be possible to suspect test them all with a timely manner and clearly the first 3 would need to be gone for people to realize the power of the slightly fragilier (although you can't call Kabutops and sometimes Kingdra as long as it doesn't resist the epitome of bulkiness) trio. This would lead to a continuation of...much the same really, Rain and Sand taking high spot and probably Sun a tiny bit higher than before.
If it turns out that all the (good) Swift Swimmers are a bit overpowering, clearly it isn't the users but either Swift Swim or Drizzle which again is back to that problem and it is obvious the problem here is Drizzle since most of them (except maybe Poliwrath, Manaphy, Kingdra) are not usually sweeping people in those 8 turns as well when you have to spend the turn to set it up.
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