I'm very confsed by your post, and I question why you so vehemently oppose the very simple notion of a Drizzle ban. Rain offense, and to a lesser degree, rain stall, would live on, and we would no longer have to deal with the absurdity that is perma-rain
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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It'd be simpler to ban the actual sweepers themselves into Uber than to ban Drizzle; the former is consistant with the precedent that we've treated Sand before, and you don't need to argue out what influence Drizzle vs Swift Swim has.
I prefer fighting against weather than non-weather, I like seeing the different teams people make with rain and sun that apparently very few people posting in this thread see. I like seeing people pull out trick rooms mid-game completely switching the momentum, when I see upsets, I like them, and I like seeing them more in the atmosphere of weather.
Rain offense and rain stall live if you don't ban Drizzle and find an alternative as well, so honestly whatever son.
I don't see why you vehemently oppose the very simple notion of a Swift swim ban.
I don't see why you vehemently oppose the very simple notion of a Drizzle+ SS clause.
I don't see why you vehemently oppose...
I don't mean to mock you, but I don't find your arguments convincing and your questioning of my reasons for opposing something should be rather black and white, I don't agree with a drizzle ban.
I think the players will adapt to a weather based metagame with maybe a few bans here and there to even out the distribution of power. Those who dislike weather will find UU satisfying their needs.
Ok, enough of the analogy. It's a strong assumption to make that all of these pokemon will go back to normal power-levels and not broken ones if we ban Drizzle. Banning Drizzle only loosely patch fixes a larger problem, which is the fact that under Rain a handful of things are broken. Just because Drizzle provides the best conditions for said rain, doesn't mean that Drizzle is causing those Pokemon to be broken in the Rain.
This ban is aimed for the sole purpose of convenience, rather than the purpose of banning what is broken. I find that to be the wrong way to approach this subject. We aren't playing banlist golf, where the smallest banlist with a semi-stable metagame wins. We're trying to oversimplify a problem, and it's just more complex than that.
EDIT: For those arguing it, Banning Swift Swim is just completely retarded. Implying that Swift Swim is broken is implying Luvdisc is broken. Please, just stop even trying to say that.
And we all know how much it sucks to be Inconsistent...
lol
To actually contribute, I'll say something about Sand.
I don't understand why a few people have stated that they think Dory is Uber. I know that the majority don't think so, but it is an opinion that has been expressed in this thread.
Dory is easily revenged, can be walled, and needs set-up to sweep most teams. Other than the ridiculous speed, he's simply not over-whelming, IMO. Although, I'm perfectly willing to hear someone's ideas.......
It's that simple for those who oppose you, though.
Drizzle-banners don't find your arguments convincing, and we find our reasons to be black and white (generally speaking).
Simply, we don't agree with a Swift Swim ban.
If it can be so simple for you, why is it not allowed to be simple for us?
Sand never had the kind of influence that drizzle does. The only pokemon that had to leave that had anything to do with sand was garchomp, and that wasn't the only reason... he was very hard to counter as it was, the sand just made it an easier decision.
Manaphy also got the ban mostly for tail glow and its bulk, and while it was helped by rain it would often finish sweeps out of it.
There is no precedent for this kind of scale of abuse, as there has never before been an auto start to any weather that allowed a speed or power boost.
It is that simple.
I never said it wasn't that simple, nor that it could not be that simple.
I don't see the reasoning behind this post other then saying what was obvious from the moment we began discussing this.
But if we both knew the other side's argument made sense to them, why did you post the post that I quoted?
Before we get into a game of "Why did you post ___?" I would like to ask you a question.
Do you think that Swift Swim can make any pokemon that has it broken (barring Shedinja/Slaking)? Because if not, then it is a combination of the abuser and the ability that is broken, rather than the ability itself. And if we find that the ability itself is not broken, then we really shouldn't ban it.
So you should ask yourself, does Drizzle make almost any user broken, or does Swift Swim?
Here's an example.
If you had a Magikarp with Drizzle, you could kill the opponent's weather inducer and get permanent rain up. Then a Swift Swimmer could sweep.
That's exactly what our current metagame is like.
But if you had Drizzle Politoed and Swift Swim Blissey, the Blissey wouldn't be broken at all.
Blissey is obviously a better pokemon than Magikarp.
But only the Magikarp example is a broken one.
That's why it is Drizzle that's broken and not Swift Swim.
I said it because he questioned why I disagreed, when it was obvious that I don't agree with a drizzle ban.
Drizzle cannot make almost any user broken,, neither can Swift swim. Drizzle just gives a STAB boost and resistance to it's fire to it's user when the user switches in, when the user switches out those benefits then go to other pokemon. It can't make almost any user broken individually, your not going to slap Drizzle on delibird and have delibird raping teams.
Swift Swim is dependent on a weather effect being up someone either sets it up or the user sets it up. Luvdisc is clearly not a threat.
Neither ability breaks anything simply by itself, but Drizzle is much more independent since it doesn't need something to activate it.
Obviously Swift swim is a combination of the abuser and the ability, that same thing is true for multiple abilities such as No guard, scrappy, encourage, etc.
Drizzle cannot make almost any user broken,, neither can Swift swim. Drizzle just gives a STAB boost and resistance to it's fire to it's user when the user switches in, when the user switches out those benefits then go to other pokemon. It can't make almost any user broken individually, your not going to slap Drizzle on delibird and have delibird raping teams.
Swift Swim is dependent on a weather effect being up someone either sets it up or the user sets it up. Luvdisc is clearly not a threat.
Neither ability breaks anything simply by itself, but Drizzle is much more independent since it doesn't need something to activate it.
Obviously Swift swim is a combination of the abuser and the ability, that same thing is true for multiple abilities such as No guard, scrappy, encourage, etc.
Banning Drizzle won't make them not broken.
I'm don't agree with this.
However, my only argument against it is Gen4 OU, which is irrelevant to Gen5 OU.
So I honestly can't prove that you're wrong.
Perhaps you could explain your reasoning?
In turn I can ask you if magikarp had drizzle and there was nothing to make use of it, would it still be broken? It's a combination of both drizzle and swift swim that makes rain broken, not any individual factor.
If on the other hand, you actually think the other boosts rain provides is broken, then you should be fight just as hard to ban drought seeing as there's no difference between magikarp with drizzle + starmie and ninetales with drought + heatran.
What precedent? Perma-rain is broken outside of swift swim regardless
Drought is not as easily abused and the 1.5x boost isn't the broken aspect of Drizzle
No it can't Drizzle for support still requires that it's user doesn't fall to pieces and can switch in otherwise yes the simply "change the weather" moves would end it right then and there when the host can't switch in to change it.
Still theres some laziness been playing alting a lot today and seen others players strategies, some people have come up with their own solutions, and if anything some bans will rectify this.
If nothing else Manaphy however should definitely be banned this round it doesn't matter if it's Drizzle or rain dance Manaphy will function.
Still theres some laziness been playing alting a lot today and seen others players strategies, some people have come up with their own solutions, and if anything some bans will rectify this.
If nothing else Manaphy however should definitely be banned this round it doesn't matter if it's Drizzle or rain dance Manaphy will function.
astrohawke said:
I think we're at a stalemate here. You're right that Drizzle needs something to take advantage of it. But Swift Swim needs rain to take advantage of.
This is going to be a rock that won't budge. A fight that can't be won. At least, I think so.
astrohawke said:
But I don't think that, so no reason for me to say more here.
ensoriki said:
The Drizzle pokemon can die right away as long as you kill the other weather inducer first.
And in the event of using weather moves, then your point becomes moot, because those would screw with ANY Drizzle team, not just a Feebas Drizzle.
ensoriki said:
So we agree that something needs to be banned. Good!
ensoriki said:
I'm on the fence about Manaphy. I honestly would need to see it without rain support to make a judgement on that. So I'm not going to say much here.
If both are dependent on something else, then why are either of them broken? They don't break everything they touch, so the ones that they do break should be the ones we look at, right?
swift swim isn't broken. I said it before and i'll say it again:
an entire team of swift swimmers and a drizzle pokemon is not broken. The swimmers can easily be stopped, even if the rain is permanent.
you know what makes drizzle broken? the ease with which you can do whatever counter-killing is needed to clear the way for the swift swimmer, and then immediately switch to a swimmer and get started.
Its the same as saying your sweeper is of speed, say, 102... so you either paralyze or kill everything that's faster than him or walls him... then when you switch him in he gets a free attack boost... except in this case your sweeper gets a free 590 speed (max speed kingdra), so all you have to do is eliminate any pokemon the opponent has that can counter/wall your set, and you win by sweeping.
This appears to be swift swim because it's the method being used to finish, but just the swift swimmers alone are on par with any other pokemon threat-wise.
All it's really doing is the same as the example. the 102 speed and atk boosted sweeper looks like the king of the world getting 2-3 kos a game... but it was nothing until its counters were removed. The only problem is that at the end when counters are gone, there is no set up turn... and thats the only problem. Its insanely easy to just bounce around and take your time with a rain team in drizzle until you get the right counters, because you don't have to worry about when your sweep will start; its all already lined up, just needs to be "unlocked".
an entire team of swift swimmers and a drizzle pokemon is not broken. The swimmers can easily be stopped, even if the rain is permanent.
you know what makes drizzle broken? the ease with which you can do whatever counter-killing is needed to clear the way for the swift swimmer, and then immediately switch to a swimmer and get started.
Its the same as saying your sweeper is of speed, say, 102... so you either paralyze or kill everything that's faster than him or walls him... then when you switch him in he gets a free attack boost... except in this case your sweeper gets a free 590 speed (max speed kingdra), so all you have to do is eliminate any pokemon the opponent has that can counter/wall your set, and you win by sweeping.
This appears to be swift swim because it's the method being used to finish, but just the swift swimmers alone are on par with any other pokemon threat-wise.
All it's really doing is the same as the example. the 102 speed and atk boosted sweeper looks like the king of the world getting 2-3 kos a game... but it was nothing until its counters were removed. The only problem is that at the end when counters are gone, there is no set up turn... and thats the only problem. Its insanely easy to just bounce around and take your time with a rain team in drizzle until you get the right counters, because you don't have to worry about when your sweep will start; its all already lined up, just needs to be "unlocked".
Even though that's true, I was referring to this argument, here and now.
Dude, calm down...I was just responding to one of maybe five people trying to refute my analogy instead of addressing the argument.
Also, yes, it does. Have you played any 4th gen UU? I said this before: the main thing holding Rain back was that it was temporary and required setup. No one could get away with Rain in OU because Tyranitar and Hippowdon could switch right in and cancel it out. Even Abomasnow, for those who ran Hail stall. It always took an extra turn to set up the rain.
Now in 5th gen, it takes no turns to set up Rain. The second Politoed is in, Rain is in effect, which gives me a free turn to do whatever I want (like attack). Once Politoed is out, I can switch straight into Kingdra and start causing damage.
Example: Beginning of the match - Politoed and another lead are in. Rain starts.
Turn 1 - Switch to Kingdra.
Turn 2 - Attack
or:
Turn 1 - use Hydro Pump. Tyranitar/something else takes massive damage trying to switch in. You now have the advantage.
or even:
Turn 1 - Use a status move. Tyranitar is now either asleep or poisoned. You now have the advantage.
Without Drizzle: Uxie and another lead are in.
Turn 1 - Uxie uses Rain Dance
Turn 2 - Lead uses Stealth Rock
Turn 3 - Tyranitar switches in and cancels out the rain.
Turn 4 - Switch to something else to set up Rain (which takes a hit from Tyranitar)
Turn 5 - Tyranitar switches out while you turn on the Rain
Turn 6 - Tyranitar cancels out the rain again.
^ Do you see how many turns you wasted trying to get and keep the Rain up? This is really hard to do and wastes time when you could have just used a standard offensive team and started doing damage right away. 4th gen Rain didn't work in OU.
UU was a different story. All it had to deal with was Snover and Hippopotas, neither of whom were exactly common. Even if they were around, they didn't have many opportunity to switch in, save for revenge, and weren't exactly threatening to anything while they were in.
But even then, there just weren't enough UU players convinced that it was broken for it to be banned. As long as we could wall/cripple/stall them out for eight turns, it was usually easy to get a powerhouse in and sweep the team afterward.
Also, every turn your opponent spends switching in a Rain Dance user as well as using the move was a turn for you to initiate your own plan of action. For a good example, read this warstory: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68200
If something is broken when in Rain, then it's broken in the Rain. Be it 8 turn Rain or infinite Rain the Pokemon is still broken, as the boosts rain provide are the same either way. There is no Power Creep in Rain. Things don't suddenly become more powerful on the 9th turn or the 10th turn.
Sure the argument of being able to "stall out" 8 turn Rain comes up all the time as the reason they're not broken if we ban Drizzle. The problem is, how are you going to stall it? So many arguments in this thread have been about how so far and few between Rain's counters are. So what's suddenly stopping it from sweeping through your team in the finite Rain while at the same time being completely ineffective against the same team in infinite Rain?
The logic that 8 turn Rain makes these broken Swift Swimmers, suddenly not broken is flawed. It doesn't magically make them easier to handle, it just makes them harder to use, but the brokenness is still there.
Do you know the difference between broken and powerful? without Swift Swim (and perhaps we can ban Hydration too) all the rain sweepers can be easily killed revenged so they aren´t broken, and the 1.5 bonus to water attacks is so "broken" as the 1.5 bonus to sp. def of the rock-types, or the powerboost of rock/steel/ground attacks in sand-streng pokemons in SS, the only excuse of banning Drizzle and leaving Swift Swim is that you want a 4th gen OU 2.0
BTW, I totally ignored like the first gazillion pages of this topic and only skimmed this current page...
The main thing is that, when rain does end, you could potentially lose right there. Back in DP for example, if you just killed something on your last turn on rain and Specs Jolteon comes out, you might have just lost the game right there. That's just an example.
When rain ends, there's an opportunity that you won't be able to set it up again, and if you can prevent that set up, you always have a chance. Whereas with permanent rain, there's never an opportunity or a chance.
Now, I'm not saying ban Drizzle or ban the Swift Swimmers or anything, I'm just saying how permanent rain is so much more powerful then regular repeated Rain Dancing because it eliminates one way to defeat it, in a sense.
Another thing how permanent rain is much more useful is the amount of spaces it frees up on your team. Now you won't need to waste time adding like a Uxie, or a Scizor, or a Rotom, you can have Politoed do your one stop Rain Dancing. It also frees up moveslots on certain Pokes. People would sometimes use up a Kingdra slot to add Rain Dance, a Ludicolo moveslot. With Polited, you just get to add more sweepers and moves to your team.
So yeah...perma-rain is a big difference.
It's because you made an analogy that is not a good representation of the current argument. You make an analogy that suits your viewpoint better by suggesting a solution that has only pros and no cons implying that banning drizzle would have only pros and no cons. When people point out the flaws in such a comparison, you insist that you dictate the rules of the scenario and that's how it is, no argument allowed.
And the discussion on whether or not rain is broken is over. I think most of us agree that it is. The discussion now is what we should be doing to fix this. Is it not worth testing rain without swift swim because we can't be bothered doing another month of tests with rain? Until we actually test something, no amount of theorymoning will prove anything. Nor will any bureaucratic bullshit about not banning abilities or moves because it's already been done. What it ultimately comes down to is can we be bothered to or not.
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